Most religous groups have a book or written standards.
Most organizations, business etc have a set of ruls and regulations to have a standard of behaviour and procedures.
USA has a set of laws that say what we can and can not do.
People have always desired control and say so in matters concerning their choices.
TRUTH is up to the individual. Truth is the choice people makes at any given time .
What religous book or standard one choses can decide for you what choices you make in life.
Whether one person truth is better than the other is yet to be seen as far as the christian perspective goes as the return of Christ has not happened .
For me the bible perspective can be a very confusing web of people trying to understand a God that asks us to be spiritual not academic .
I believe knowledge of God and Jesus christ and spirituality in general is a personal affair between each individual and their God and a very personal CHOICE.
To seek knowledge from a book(bible in the case of the christian religous) again is up to the person ability and desire to understand and obey.
truth is whatever a person thinks it is. my truth may or may not be your truth and on and on it goes.
I believe that is why LOVE is the most important commandment in the writings of Jesus christs words.
But if a person does not think a man was able to perform the tasks the bible claims Jesus
Christ did that of course would NOT be their individual truth.
i'm not saying that there is no truth in the bible or that anybody shouldn't believe in the bible or anything like that, but what i'm saying is that i think it's stupid to think that the only truth is in the bible, and the discussion i was looking for wasn't a doctrinal discussion but a discussion is how come i thought like that, and i found out that it was because of what the way international taught me.
For me a lot of how we approached folks while under TWI influence like most things is not all that simple. There seems to be an unavoidable mix of individual intentions along with following our clearly set examples that either means we come of as arrogant know-it-alls, come of as genuinely interested and caring, or come off somewhere in between with a little of each coming out as things develope.
I choose to find truth in the scriptures, but oftentimes I find the very same principles in religious or secular settings. I don't see any reason to try to bust anyone's balls about something if they seem to be tracking with decency, respect, or any other good thing no matter what the source of their ethics are.
Personally, what I have come to have the most distaste for I'm pretty sure is a slick bible presentation that has behind it hidden motives such as strife, lust, vainglory, or any other less than admirable motive. (IMO the very same thing may be said of any authority figure, religious or secular.)Oftentimes it seems to be not such as easy thing to discern; the difference between a good person and a selfish, manipulative one as IMO the are both capable of giving convincing demonstrations of their stated intentions.
i'm not saying that there is no truth in the bible or that anybody shouldn't believe in the bible or anything like that, but what i'm saying is that i think it's stupid to think that the only truth is in the bible, and the discussion i was looking for wasn't a doctrinal discussion but a discussion is how come i thought like that, and i found out that it was because of what the way international taught me.
twi was designed to make thinking as black-and-white as possible.
The Bible- and thus twi, as the "only" organization teaching "the truth" about the Bible-
contained truth.......
.....which developed into "no other Christians have truth/all other Christians live in darkness"
and further into "there is no truth outside the Bible, and thus, no truth outside twi."
That's how we get the kind of nonsense where the extreme Kool-Aid drinkers say things
like scientists getting knowledge ONLY from God or ONLY from the devil,
with no possibilities for anything like experimentation, failure, modification,
further experimentation, etc, which tend to dominate the lives of the major inventors
like Thomas Edison and so on.
We've seen posters POST THIS on this messageboard. lcm spouted this kind of nonsense-
where music, art, inventions, etc are all the result of a devil who seems to be a
better benefactor of society than the so-called "god" that twi'ers eventually ended
up AFRAID of, appeased only by more restrictive rules than Israel ever faced.
I think it is the point exactly that what ever one is involved in and believes is the truth is the truth for them.
People define what they believe as truth.
It was alot of peer pressure in twi and group think.
most religous groups operate in that manner, if you do not believe what they hold as truth you not really welcomed to worship their God.
Twi had pfal as their standard for truth. twi claims pfal is bible truths. hence why your thinking the bible is the only source for truth.
disclaimer: I am answering your question on the terms you stated, to the manner it was written, I do not know why you think in the manner you chose to think.
does anyone know the realy why or honest truth of how anyone eles may think?
In the case of this man who gave me this gem from his experience in RRF I believe it's pretty evident who taught him how to look at people and how to use...uh...er...(I mean) lead them.
"i actually love it when people relate me to my dad... he's a boss on a level that you only wish you could be Jeff S. and if he abused the authority than that's his problem and believe me, he takes responsibility..."
Im not one of those people that claims the bible is my only source for truth anymore.
I happened across THIS ARTICLE that not only gives me something to think about but an abundance of pretty good quotes
Among them.....
........he historian William Lecky said, "Truth is scattered far and wide in small portions among mankind, mingled in every system with the dross of error, grasped perfectly by no one, and only in some degree discovered by the careful comparison and collation of opposing systems.....
.....William Blake poetized, "A truth that's told with bad intent / Beats all the lies you can invent."
John Milton said that the truth "needs no policies, nor stratagems, nor licensings to make her victorious; those are the shifts and the defenses that error uses against her power; give her but room, and do not bind her when she sleeps...
Truth never grows old, unlike the daily news or petty gossip. The truth, furthermore, requires special handling. Those who bungle had best carry a lie. In this regard, we should think on government and bureaucrats. "It is error alone that needs the support of government," wrote Thomas Jefferson. "Truth can stand by itself." And of course, it usually does stand by itself -- with nobody anywhere near it. "I tell the truth, not as much as I would but as much as I dare," wrote Montaigne. "And I dare more and more as I grow older."
There is also Oscar Wilde's admonition: "If one tells the truth, one is sure, sooner or later, to be found out." Or as they say in Yugoslavia, "Speak the truth and run."
There is also Oscar Wilde's admonition: "If one tells the truth, one is sure, sooner or later, to be found out." Or as they say in Yugoslavia, "Speak the truth and run."
Well stated. Or as the scientists say in Russia at a presentation - is it Pravda? Or is it really Pravda. (Pravda == truth)
Original question of this thread:...”but something was bothering me and it just came clear to me today and it is the idea that the only truth is in the bible. really? that's a pretty stupid way of thinking once i look at it in the light of day. and how'd i get to thinking like that? i think it started with the idea that "all things that pertain unto life and godliness are contained herein" or whatever the way international said about the bible. again, really?”
Waysider reminds us:
PFAL
It wasn't just a class.
It was indoctrination into fundamentalism.
From what I've figured out, The Way’s promoting the idea that the only source for truth is the Bible comes from a conservative segment in Protestantism, like Waysider points out, called the Fundamentalist movement, and there are lots of groups especially, it seems, in the USA. The idea has a fancy Latin name, sola scriptura, and was the rallying cry of the Protestants when they broke away from the Catholic Church with Martin Luther leading the cause. Although I usually refrain from using Wikipedia as a source, it’s not a bad start here...See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura
For me, being raised a Catholic in the 1950s and 1960s, I was immersed in a religious tradition that mixed church dogma AND the Bible as their sources for truth, so not until I got into Young Life in high school (a Bible-waving, born-again-proclaiming, Good News for Modern Man N.T. version reading segment of the Jesus movement alive in the 1970s and still going on today) did the emphasis in my fledgling kindergarden style theological training shift to scripture as the only place for truth to be found (which, of course ignores the long history of the way of thinking that claims there is only ONE truth, but that’s another topic for another rainy day – it’s raining here in Winter Park, Florida right now and they say it might turn to snow! Yippee...).
Anyway, for me, sitting through the indoctrination class, PFAL, as Waysider reminds us, was not only an experience of getting Wierwille’s theology (plagiarized as it is) hammered into my mind, but was also an indoctrination into the broader category of thinking which is called Fundamentalism which has as one of its major cornerstones the idea you are addressing: that the Bible is the only source for truth. Along with inerrancy, millennialism, and evangelizing, it feels (to put it mildly) that the Bible should be mankind’s only rule of faith and practice.
Fundamentalism is the extremely conservative segment of Protestantism that essentially fights against modernism (i.e. evolution and other scientific issues), textual criticism and other approaches to understanding what the Bible is that do not buy into “the accuracy of The Word,” for instance, or that it was dictated by God to the writers. It is mission-oriented and from what I’ve seen, rejects the validity of any other religions as avenues for “reaching God.”
This movement started in earnest in America during the 1920s when the clash between conservative Protestants and Darwinism hit the country.
For a book on the history of American Fundamentalism, check out, Fundamentalism and American Culture, by George M. Mardsen (Oxford Univ. Press 2006). It’s a long read and I haven’t read all the chapters, but from what I’ve read, I think it is a good source. See what you think. He is a professor of history at the University of Notre Dame and is a Christian historian. I think he does a good job presenting the material about all the different ingredients that went into the recipe for American Fundamentalism.
If you visit Amazon online, for instance, you can find LOTS of books and resources that cover Christian Fundamentalism. Or wander around the public library, which I what I did in 1987 when I left TWI and started to try and understand what the heck happened.
A few I’ve read on the topic include these, but I’d like to find a few others that are good, too, so if anyone here knows any, please tell me:
James Barr’s book, Fundamentalism, which I quoted in the “Nostalia..” article posted on the front page here. Published in Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1978.
Sandeen, Ernest R. The Roots of Fundamentalism. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. 1970.
Clabaugh, Gary K. Thunder on the Right. Chicago: Nelson-Hall Company. 1974.
Armstrong, Karen. The Battle for God, A History of Fundamentalism. The Ballantine Publishing Group. 2000.
There are other places where you [well I should speak for myself first] find truth too, but I'm not so sure you want to extend the discussion that far.
Natural laws are truths - and mathematics, all the various branches of it have their own truths.
Its an interesting subject..I think that just about everyone has some sort of desire to find out what is true and what is untrue, if not in a wide sense at least for themselves and their own life.
TWI co opted that and became the sole arbiters of truth available for the one time low cost of your life blood and soul. Im sure some people still believe that the bible is the whole source for truth but to me it is narrow.
It really wasnt until after I left, was not quite so gung ho as I had been and worked with some Buddhists that I realized that these people were not possessed but actually had some very interesting viewpoints and understandings of things that werent at all contrary to the better parts of what I had learned from TWI. To me that started opening up a broader way to see things than through the bible alone filter.
Of course maybe "narrow is the way" and Im screwed or it could be that was added in as a control measure to keep the followers on the straight and narrow...in the same way that "no man comes unto the Father but by me" may be true or it may be a very big ego moment by an otherwise very cool guy who had some human control issues...and of course youd have to first believe in the Hebrew FatherGod concept for that to hold any weight anyway.
Im not sure but Im willing to take my chances. Truth is in a lot of things. There is truth in relationships, truth in business, truth in science, truth in politics etc etc that is almost always difficult to ferret out and get to...in a religious or spiritual sense Jesus was a 'truth teller" but I dont think that he was the only one who formulated ideas with universal appeal and application (Love, Forgiveness, compassion etc etc...)
The questions about life after death --Heaven, Hell, Reincarnation etc etc, to me are ALL conjectures even if recorded by spiritual thinkers as they cannot be known.
IF people do choose to believe one of those concepts and take it on faith (The return of Christ, heaven,paradise, reincarnation..whatever) it may be very comforting to believe it is "the truth" but it is a choice and at best a hope that it is the truth on which they are willing to gamble.
Best of luck to them in their hope. I dont mind people believing that, it does perturb me though when peoples opinions and personal decisions do become the only way for everyone else to conduct their life.
and that is "truly" how I feel about that...I too have my own path of discovery that is hard enough to stay on without being wrenched off it time and again. So far its been difficult but good and true enough for me to most of the time stay at peace with myself.
If im wrong, im wrong..but I am willing to live my path and if necessary go down with my ship and for me thats fine.
I just got sick in TWI of spending my time "driving someone elses ship" and someone elses take on "the truth"
Its an interesting subject..I think that just about everyone has some sort of desire to find out what is true and what is untrue, if not in a wide sense at least for themselves and their own life.
TWI co opted that and became the sole arbiters of truth available for the one time low cost of your life blood and soul. Im sure some people still believe that the bible is the whole source for truth but to me it is narrow.
It really wasnt until after I left, was not quite so gung ho as I had been and worked with some Buddhists that I realized that these people were not possessed but actually had some very interesting viewpoints and understandings of things that werent at all contrary to the better parts of what I had learned from TWI. To me that started opening up a broader way to see things than through the bible alone filter.
Of course maybe "narrow is the way" and Im screwed or it could be that was added in as a control measure to keep the followers on the straight and narrow...in the same way that "no man comes unto the Father but by me" may be true or it may be a very big ego moment by an otherwise very cool guy who had some human control issues...and of course youd have to first believe in the Hebrew FatherGod concept for that to hold any weight anyway.
Im not sure but Im willing to take my chances. Truth is in a lot of things. There is truth in relationships, truth in business, truth in science, truth in politics etc etc that is almost always difficult to ferret out and get to...in a religious or spiritual sense Jesus was a 'truth teller" but I dont think that he was the only one who formulated ideas with universal appeal and application (Love, Forgiveness, compassion etc etc...)
The questions about life after death --Heaven, Hell, Reincarnation etc etc, to me are ALL conjectures even if recorded by spiritual thinkers as they cannot be known.
IF people do choose to believe one of those concepts and take it on faith (The return of Christ, heaven,paradise, reincarnation..whatever) it may be very comforting to believe it is "the truth" but it is a choice and at best a hope that it is the truth on which they are willing to gamble.
Best of luck to them in their hope. I dont mind people believing that, it does perturb me though when peoples opinions and personal decisions do become the only way for everyone else to conduct their life.
and that is "truly" how I feel about that...I too have my own path of discovery that is hard enough to stay on without being wrenched off it time and again. So far its been difficult but good and true enough for me to most of the time stay at peace with myself.
If im wrong, im wrong..but I am willing to live my path and if necessary go down with my ship and for me thats fine.
I just got sick in TWI of spending my time "driving someone elses ship" and someone elses take on "the truth"
thanks for that information penworks! and krys it's not that i don't want to go off in that direction because i really do, but it's that i don't want this discussion to get sent to the "doctrinal" area before it's had a chance to put the thinking of the way international into the "light of day", so go ahead and say what you're thinking and let's see where it goes. :) mstar i have spent some time with different types of religious beliefs with people when they are very sick and even dying and compared to the way international and what the way international claims is "christianity", these other religions are far closer to what the bible says is "christianity" than anything the way international ever, EVER practices concerning sickness and death and dying! which is where i began to wonder if that "truth" must be a universal thing and not something held in a book and for only the specifically initiated. i mean doesn't even the bible say of itself that even a child could understand the truths? if that's the truth, then what's all the learning, all the "according to usage" and other mumbo jumbo the way international used to "prove" they had some "special" understanding, all the "research", all the whole waste of time, really, when what the way international at its top level produced out of it all was a handful of rapists, thieves, wife beaters, drunks, aldulterers and possibly even murderers? i mean seriously, something got lost in the translation if the way international thinks they found "the truth" about anything.
Im not one of those people that claims the bible is my only source for truth anymore.
I happened across THIS ARTICLE that not only gives me something to think about but an abundance of pretty good quotes
Among them.....
Its an interesting subject..I think that just about everyone has some sort of desire to find out what is true and what is untrue, if not in a wide sense at least for themselves and their own life.
TWI co opted that and became the sole arbiters of truth available for the one time low cost of your life blood and soul. Im sure some people still believe that the bible is the whole source for truth but to me it is narrow.
It really wasnt until after I left, was not quite so gung ho as I had been and worked with some Buddhists that I realized that these people were not possessed but actually had some very interesting viewpoints and understandings of things that werent at all contrary to the better parts of what I had learned from TWI. To me that started opening up a broader way to see things than through the bible alone filter.
Of course maybe "narrow is the way" and Im screwed or it could be that was added in as a control measure to keep the followers on the straight and narrow...in the same way that "no man comes unto the Father but by me" may be true or it may be a very big ego moment by an otherwise very cool guy who had some human control issues...and of course youd have to first believe in the Hebrew FatherGod concept for that to hold any weight anyway.
Im not sure but Im willing to take my chances. Truth is in a lot of things. There is truth in relationships, truth in business, truth in science, truth in politics etc etc that is almost always difficult to ferret out and get to...in a religious or spiritual sense Jesus was a 'truth teller" but I dont think that he was the only one who formulated ideas with universal appeal and application (Love, Forgiveness, compassion etc etc...)
The questions about life after death --Heaven, Hell, Reincarnation etc etc, to me are ALL conjectures even if recorded by spiritual thinkers as they cannot be known.
IF people do choose to believe one of those concepts and take it on faith (The return of Christ, heaven,paradise, reincarnation..whatever) it may be very comforting to believe it is "the truth" but it is a choice and at best a hope that it is the truth on which they are willing to gamble.
Best of luck to them in their hope. I dont mind people believing that, it does perturb me though when peoples opinions and personal decisions do become the only way for everyone else to conduct their life.
and that is "truly" how I feel about that...I too have my own path of discovery that is hard enough to stay on without being wrenched off it time and again. So far its been difficult but good and true enough for me to most of the time stay at peace with myself.
If im wrong, im wrong..but I am willing to live my path and if necessary go down with my ship and for me thats fine.
I just got sick in TWI of spending my time "driving someone elses ship" and someone elses take on "the truth"
Great posts Mstar and I really like Nyquist's article – thanks for the link! Leaving the comfortable and "safe" confines of TWI years ago was taking a big chance for me too - more on this later.. .
In a pinch I usually defer to one of my favorite philosophers:
“It's so hard to believe in anything anymore. I mean, it's like, religion, you really can't take it seriously, because it seems so mythological, it seems so arbitrary...but, on the other hand, science is just pure empiricism, and by virtue of its method, it excludes metaphysics. I guess I wouldn't believe in anything any more if it weren't for my lucky astrology mood watch.”
Steve Martin
~~
But seriously folks, it’s really great to be here at Grease Spot – now on to some very important subliminal messages..
~~
I figure most folks are in some sort of pursuit of truth – the ultimate reality – or whatever you want to call it – with varying levels of intensity and numerous ways to approach the task.
If life is like a journey – then maybe my pursuit of truth is just a vacation. And in my opinion it ought to be a well-planned vacation commensurate with the thought process of my wife [our best family vacations have always been the ones that Tonto worked out]. The salient points of her best-vacation-strategy are:
- stay within your budget
- get the most bang for your buck
- check out some places new & different [often means getting off the beaten trail]
- research beforehand [check out reviews by both locals and visitors]
- pack sensibly - please refer to the work of another of my favorite philosophers - George Carlin’s “a place for my stuff” routine http://babyboomerfla...n-on-stuff.html
- And last but not least – make sure you take off enough time from work
If you’re like me, vacation time is never enough and I usually need a day or two off at home to recuperate from a vacation before going back to work.. .ok if I win the Lotto – we’d probably spend 6 months out of every year traveling around the world - leaving you guys to play where in the world are Tonto & T-Bone. And if preparation is supposed to be the highest form of believing [oh gag me with a PFAL book why dontcha] then according to my wife/personal travel agent it’s a done deal.
~~
But seriously folks my time with TWI was like taking a guided tour through Las Vegas. Ain’t nothing “real” except what the tour guide says about it. Yea and while we’re on the subject of escaping from reality - what supposedly happens in La La Land can ONLY happen in La La Land.
Alright, alright.. .a really serious note here.. .picking back up on what I was saying about taking a big chance when I left TWI.. . as time went on I found myself broadening my view of where to look for truth. Initially it was still focused on the Bible but at least I was making a concerted effort to remove the PFAL colored glasses – by getting a little more familiar with the biblical languages & resources available.
I also got into checking out some commentaries & systematic theology. I guess some of this could be considered taking a guided tour – yes, but with a twist. Now armed with some critical thinking skills & a growing knowledge of the raw technical data of the Bible – I felt I could check out the tour guide’s spiel against what I knew. Maybe it says something about the value of other viewpoints too – it’s checking out the same problem from different angles.
However – there’s another aspect of systematic theology that was probably the springboard into parts unknown [meaning outside the Bible]. By definition systematic theology employs biblical, historical, and philosophical resources to illuminate the practical application of Scripture. The older I get the more I find the philosophic angle so intriguing.
A simple definition of philosophy is the love & pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means & moral self-discipline. It’s something most folks do anyway – or maybe it’s most folks are aware of doing it.. .hmm still not exactly right.. .maybe it’s most folks who have dropped a cultic mindset, tired of being force-fed and who take an active role in the process - pursuing wisdom, “truth”, or whatever it is they’re drawn to – using their noodle to analyze rather than absorb stuff.
When I first came to Grease Spot my touchstone for knowledge was the Bible. That being the standard upon which I based judgment. My attitude toward it also most certainly made it a gateway – the only means of entry for knowledge. The basis for allowing entry was simple – if it ain’t in the Bible it ain’t worth knowing.. .
so it’s been a gradual shift of the touchstone – or maybe getting a little more honest by acknowledging the basis for me to evaluate stuff is nothing more than a personal philosophy - and while I still read the Bible I don't limit myself to that being the only place to look for answers - I like to keep my options open and have grown accustomed to many things in my belief system being in a state of flux. Am I willing to take such a risk? You bet! Is it a flawed process? Absolutely. Does it work? Who knows? For me it does. And you have to be a little more specific in asking “does it work?”. The answer is relative. I’m enjoying life a lot more – not only since I left TWI but by broadening my horizons since joining Grease Spot.
~~
~~
Be it known to all Grease Spotters from this day forward I’m editing my profile under interests to reflect the addition of a few more hobbies:
from
“Systematic theology, music, movies and cappuccino”
to
“Current interests are movies, cappuccino, and music – in that order; current hobbies are philosophy, playing the bass guitar, target-shooting, and systematic theology – in that order.”
thanks for that information penworks! and krys it's not that i don't want to go off in that direction because i really do, but it's that i don't want this discussion to get sent to the "doctrinal" area before it's had a chance to put the thinking of the way international into the "light of day", so go ahead and say what you're thinking and let's see where it goes
It's not always easy to predict where and how a thread will develop. At the moment it seems that this has the potential of a rich, full discussion. The ideas of finding truth in the math and science realm (and possibly others) should more correctly go in another thread a bit later.
For me. . . . truth is a person . . . I learn about Him in the scriptures. . . what I see blows me away more than anything I have ever heard before. How He interacted with people, loved them, understood them, and reached out to heal them. . . moves me to worship and praise.
That is my truth. . . .and I have looked around. . .I am now one of those sold out committed Jesus freaks. . . who are rare to emerge from the Way.
Maybe that reveal will happen to me one of these days--Im not closed to it but I havent experienced it so I have no desire to force my square peg into that round hole and attempt to make it happen or worse pretend its happening when its really not....
I have to admit my way experience (and a few subsequent ones) soured my experience with christianity. I was told once too often exactly what "truth" was, and no matter how I tried it just didnt jive completely with the reality that I was experiencing.
Since I was obviously outside their accepted realm of truth it created all sorts of issues for me that were not all that easy to come to terms with... I finally chucked it more or less and worked on figuring out my own self and attempting to live some sort of productive and beneficial life in some sort of decent manner as I see it
If that gets Jesus or some other deity upset--well Im willing to accept that--he/they/them can do with me as they will --- The ride at least was good . I tried, I really did but most of the time I just dont get it
Maybe that reveal will happen to me one of these days--Im not closed to it but I havent experienced it so I have no desire to force my square peg into that round hole and attempt to make it happen or worse pretend its happening when its really not....
I have to admit my way experience (and a few subsequent ones) soured my experience with christianity. I was told once too often exactly what "truth" was, and no matter how I tried it just didnt jive completely with the reality that I was experiencing.
Since I was obviously outside their accepted realm of truth it created all sorts of issues for me that were not all that easy to come to terms with... I finally chucked it more or less and worked on figuring out my own self and attempting to live some sort of productive and beneficial life in some sort of decent manner as I see it
If that gets Jesus or some other deity upset--well Im willing to accept that--he/they/them can do with me as they will --- The ride at least was good . I tried, I really did but most of the time I just dont get it
You are a good honest man. Rare breed these days. Although. . . you don't always answer your phone. . . . are you home yet? Or just have caller ID? :)
I think just about everyone who embraces some sort of religious/superstitious notions continually suffers through those moments where "belief" meets "reality". Eventually - if they're honest with themselves and don't let dogmatism reign supreme in some sort of misplaced sense of loyalty - the lessons of life will take a foothold...
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waysider
PFAL It wasn't just a class. It was an indoctrination to fundamentalism.
mstar1
Im not one of those people that claims the bible is my only source for truth anymore. I happened across THIS ARTICLE that not only gives me something to think about but an abundance of pretty good qu
penworks
Original question of this thread:...”but something was bothering me and it just came clear to me today and it is the idea that the only truth is in the bible. really? that's a pretty stupid way of thi
pond
Most religous groups have a book or written standards.
Most organizations, business etc have a set of ruls and regulations to have a standard of behaviour and procedures.
USA has a set of laws that say what we can and can not do.
People have always desired control and say so in matters concerning their choices.
TRUTH is up to the individual. Truth is the choice people makes at any given time .
What religous book or standard one choses can decide for you what choices you make in life.
Whether one person truth is better than the other is yet to be seen as far as the christian perspective goes as the return of Christ has not happened .
For me the bible perspective can be a very confusing web of people trying to understand a God that asks us to be spiritual not academic .
I believe knowledge of God and Jesus christ and spirituality in general is a personal affair between each individual and their God and a very personal CHOICE.
To seek knowledge from a book(bible in the case of the christian religous) again is up to the person ability and desire to understand and obey.
truth is whatever a person thinks it is. my truth may or may not be your truth and on and on it goes.
I believe that is why LOVE is the most important commandment in the writings of Jesus christs words.
But if a person does not think a man was able to perform the tasks the bible claims Jesus
Christ did that of course would NOT be their individual truth.
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brainfixed
i'm not saying that there is no truth in the bible or that anybody shouldn't believe in the bible or anything like that, but what i'm saying is that i think it's stupid to think that the only truth is in the bible, and the discussion i was looking for wasn't a doctrinal discussion but a discussion is how come i thought like that, and i found out that it was because of what the way international taught me.
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JeffSjo
Great thread Brainy!
For me a lot of how we approached folks while under TWI influence like most things is not all that simple. There seems to be an unavoidable mix of individual intentions along with following our clearly set examples that either means we come of as arrogant know-it-alls, come of as genuinely interested and caring, or come off somewhere in between with a little of each coming out as things develope.
I choose to find truth in the scriptures, but oftentimes I find the very same principles in religious or secular settings. I don't see any reason to try to bust anyone's balls about something if they seem to be tracking with decency, respect, or any other good thing no matter what the source of their ethics are.
Personally, what I have come to have the most distaste for I'm pretty sure is a slick bible presentation that has behind it hidden motives such as strife, lust, vainglory, or any other less than admirable motive. (IMO the very same thing may be said of any authority figure, religious or secular.)Oftentimes it seems to be not such as easy thing to discern; the difference between a good person and a selfish, manipulative one as IMO the are both capable of giving convincing demonstrations of their stated intentions.
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WordWolf
twi was designed to make thinking as black-and-white as possible.
The Bible- and thus twi, as the "only" organization teaching "the truth" about the Bible-
contained truth.......
.....which developed into "no other Christians have truth/all other Christians live in darkness"
and further into "there is no truth outside the Bible, and thus, no truth outside twi."
That's how we get the kind of nonsense where the extreme Kool-Aid drinkers say things
like scientists getting knowledge ONLY from God or ONLY from the devil,
with no possibilities for anything like experimentation, failure, modification,
further experimentation, etc, which tend to dominate the lives of the major inventors
like Thomas Edison and so on.
We've seen posters POST THIS on this messageboard. lcm spouted this kind of nonsense-
where music, art, inventions, etc are all the result of a devil who seems to be a
better benefactor of society than the so-called "god" that twi'ers eventually ended
up AFRAID of, appeased only by more restrictive rules than Israel ever faced.
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pond
I think it is the point exactly that what ever one is involved in and believes is the truth is the truth for them.
People define what they believe as truth.
It was alot of peer pressure in twi and group think.
most religous groups operate in that manner, if you do not believe what they hold as truth you not really welcomed to worship their God.
Twi had pfal as their standard for truth. twi claims pfal is bible truths. hence why your thinking the bible is the only source for truth.
disclaimer: I am answering your question on the terms you stated, to the manner it was written, I do not know why you think in the manner you chose to think.
does anyone know the realy why or honest truth of how anyone eles may think?
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JeffSjo
Hi Pond,
In the case of this man who gave me this gem from his experience in RRF I believe it's pretty evident who taught him how to look at people and how to use...uh...er...(I mean) lead them.
"i actually love it when people relate me to my dad... he's a boss on a level that you only wish you could be Jeff S. and if he abused the authority than that's his problem and believe me, he takes responsibility..."
(edited for clarity)
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waysider
PFAL
It wasn't just a class.
It was an indoctrination to fundamentalism.
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excathedra
just want to say hi to pond
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mstar1
Im not one of those people that claims the bible is my only source for truth anymore.
I happened across THIS ARTICLE that not only gives me something to think about but an abundance of pretty good quotes
Among them.....
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RumRunner
Well stated. Or as the scientists say in Russia at a presentation - is it Pravda? Or is it really Pravda. (Pravda == truth)
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brainfixed
this discussion is getting better and better! thanks!
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penworks
Original question of this thread:...”but something was bothering me and it just came clear to me today and it is the idea that the only truth is in the bible. really? that's a pretty stupid way of thinking once i look at it in the light of day. and how'd i get to thinking like that? i think it started with the idea that "all things that pertain unto life and godliness are contained herein" or whatever the way international said about the bible. again, really?”
Waysider reminds us:
PFAL
It wasn't just a class.
It was indoctrination into fundamentalism.
From what I've figured out, The Way’s promoting the idea that the only source for truth is the Bible comes from a conservative segment in Protestantism, like Waysider points out, called the Fundamentalist movement, and there are lots of groups especially, it seems, in the USA. The idea has a fancy Latin name, sola scriptura, and was the rallying cry of the Protestants when they broke away from the Catholic Church with Martin Luther leading the cause. Although I usually refrain from using Wikipedia as a source, it’s not a bad start here...See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sola_scriptura
For me, being raised a Catholic in the 1950s and 1960s, I was immersed in a religious tradition that mixed church dogma AND the Bible as their sources for truth, so not until I got into Young Life in high school (a Bible-waving, born-again-proclaiming, Good News for Modern Man N.T. version reading segment of the Jesus movement alive in the 1970s and still going on today) did the emphasis in my fledgling kindergarden style theological training shift to scripture as the only place for truth to be found (which, of course ignores the long history of the way of thinking that claims there is only ONE truth, but that’s another topic for another rainy day – it’s raining here in Winter Park, Florida right now and they say it might turn to snow! Yippee...).
Anyway, for me, sitting through the indoctrination class, PFAL, as Waysider reminds us, was not only an experience of getting Wierwille’s theology (plagiarized as it is) hammered into my mind, but was also an indoctrination into the broader category of thinking which is called Fundamentalism which has as one of its major cornerstones the idea you are addressing: that the Bible is the only source for truth. Along with inerrancy, millennialism, and evangelizing, it feels (to put it mildly) that the Bible should be mankind’s only rule of faith and practice.
Fundamentalism is the extremely conservative segment of Protestantism that essentially fights against modernism (i.e. evolution and other scientific issues), textual criticism and other approaches to understanding what the Bible is that do not buy into “the accuracy of The Word,” for instance, or that it was dictated by God to the writers. It is mission-oriented and from what I’ve seen, rejects the validity of any other religions as avenues for “reaching God.”
This movement started in earnest in America during the 1920s when the clash between conservative Protestants and Darwinism hit the country.
For a book on the history of American Fundamentalism, check out, Fundamentalism and American Culture, by George M. Mardsen (Oxford Univ. Press 2006). It’s a long read and I haven’t read all the chapters, but from what I’ve read, I think it is a good source. See what you think. He is a professor of history at the University of Notre Dame and is a Christian historian. I think he does a good job presenting the material about all the different ingredients that went into the recipe for American Fundamentalism.
If you visit Amazon online, for instance, you can find LOTS of books and resources that cover Christian Fundamentalism. Or wander around the public library, which I what I did in 1987 when I left TWI and started to try and understand what the heck happened.
A few I’ve read on the topic include these, but I’d like to find a few others that are good, too, so if anyone here knows any, please tell me:
James Barr’s book, Fundamentalism, which I quoted in the “Nostalia..” article posted on the front page here. Published in Philadelphia: The Westminster Press, 1978.
Sandeen, Ernest R. The Roots of Fundamentalism. Chicago: The University of Chicago Press. 1970.
Clabaugh, Gary K. Thunder on the Right. Chicago: Nelson-Hall Company. 1974.
Armstrong, Karen. The Battle for God, A History of Fundamentalism. The Ballantine Publishing Group. 2000.
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krys
There are other places where you [well I should speak for myself first] find truth too, but I'm not so sure you want to extend the discussion that far.
Natural laws are truths - and mathematics, all the various branches of it have their own truths.
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mstar1
Its an interesting subject..I think that just about everyone has some sort of desire to find out what is true and what is untrue, if not in a wide sense at least for themselves and their own life.
TWI co opted that and became the sole arbiters of truth available for the one time low cost of your life blood and soul. Im sure some people still believe that the bible is the whole source for truth but to me it is narrow.
It really wasnt until after I left, was not quite so gung ho as I had been and worked with some Buddhists that I realized that these people were not possessed but actually had some very interesting viewpoints and understandings of things that werent at all contrary to the better parts of what I had learned from TWI. To me that started opening up a broader way to see things than through the bible alone filter.
Of course maybe "narrow is the way" and Im screwed or it could be that was added in as a control measure to keep the followers on the straight and narrow...in the same way that "no man comes unto the Father but by me" may be true or it may be a very big ego moment by an otherwise very cool guy who had some human control issues...and of course youd have to first believe in the Hebrew FatherGod concept for that to hold any weight anyway.
Im not sure but Im willing to take my chances. Truth is in a lot of things. There is truth in relationships, truth in business, truth in science, truth in politics etc etc that is almost always difficult to ferret out and get to...in a religious or spiritual sense Jesus was a 'truth teller" but I dont think that he was the only one who formulated ideas with universal appeal and application (Love, Forgiveness, compassion etc etc...)
The questions about life after death --Heaven, Hell, Reincarnation etc etc, to me are ALL conjectures even if recorded by spiritual thinkers as they cannot be known.
IF people do choose to believe one of those concepts and take it on faith (The return of Christ, heaven,paradise, reincarnation..whatever) it may be very comforting to believe it is "the truth" but it is a choice and at best a hope that it is the truth on which they are willing to gamble.
Best of luck to them in their hope. I dont mind people believing that, it does perturb me though when peoples opinions and personal decisions do become the only way for everyone else to conduct their life.
and that is "truly" how I feel about that...I too have my own path of discovery that is hard enough to stay on without being wrenched off it time and again. So far its been difficult but good and true enough for me to most of the time stay at peace with myself.
If im wrong, im wrong..but I am willing to live my path and if necessary go down with my ship and for me thats fine.
I just got sick in TWI of spending my time "driving someone elses ship" and someone elses take on "the truth"
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penworks
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brainfixed
thanks for that information penworks! and krys it's not that i don't want to go off in that direction because i really do, but it's that i don't want this discussion to get sent to the "doctrinal" area before it's had a chance to put the thinking of the way international into the "light of day", so go ahead and say what you're thinking and let's see where it goes. :) mstar i have spent some time with different types of religious beliefs with people when they are very sick and even dying and compared to the way international and what the way international claims is "christianity", these other religions are far closer to what the bible says is "christianity" than anything the way international ever, EVER practices concerning sickness and death and dying! which is where i began to wonder if that "truth" must be a universal thing and not something held in a book and for only the specifically initiated. i mean doesn't even the bible say of itself that even a child could understand the truths? if that's the truth, then what's all the learning, all the "according to usage" and other mumbo jumbo the way international used to "prove" they had some "special" understanding, all the "research", all the whole waste of time, really, when what the way international at its top level produced out of it all was a handful of rapists, thieves, wife beaters, drunks, aldulterers and possibly even murderers? i mean seriously, something got lost in the translation if the way international thinks they found "the truth" about anything.
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T-Bone
Great point Waysider!!!!
Great posts Mstar and I really like Nyquist's article – thanks for the link! Leaving the comfortable and "safe" confines of TWI years ago was taking a big chance for me too - more on this later.. .
In a pinch I usually defer to one of my favorite philosophers:
“It's so hard to believe in anything anymore. I mean, it's like, religion, you really can't take it seriously, because it seems so mythological, it seems so arbitrary...but, on the other hand, science is just pure empiricism, and by virtue of its method, it excludes metaphysics. I guess I wouldn't believe in anything any more if it weren't for my lucky astrology mood watch.”
Steve Martin
~~
But seriously folks, it’s really great to be here at Grease Spot – now on to some very important subliminal messages..
~~
I figure most folks are in some sort of pursuit of truth – the ultimate reality – or whatever you want to call it – with varying levels of intensity and numerous ways to approach the task.
If life is like a journey – then maybe my pursuit of truth is just a vacation. And in my opinion it ought to be a well-planned vacation commensurate with the thought process of my wife [our best family vacations have always been the ones that Tonto worked out]. The salient points of her best-vacation-strategy are:
- stay within your budget
- get the most bang for your buck
- check out some places new & different [often means getting off the beaten trail]
- research beforehand [check out reviews by both locals and visitors]
- pack sensibly - please refer to the work of another of my favorite philosophers - George Carlin’s “a place for my stuff” routine http://babyboomerfla...n-on-stuff.html
- And last but not least – make sure you take off enough time from work
If you’re like me, vacation time is never enough and I usually need a day or two off at home to recuperate from a vacation before going back to work.. .ok if I win the Lotto – we’d probably spend 6 months out of every year traveling around the world - leaving you guys to play where in the world are Tonto & T-Bone. And if preparation is supposed to be the highest form of believing [oh gag me with a PFAL book why dontcha] then according to my wife/personal travel agent it’s a done deal.
~~
But seriously folks my time with TWI was like taking a guided tour through Las Vegas. Ain’t nothing “real” except what the tour guide says about it. Yea and while we’re on the subject of escaping from reality - what supposedly happens in La La Land can ONLY happen in La La Land.
Alright, alright.. .a really serious note here.. .picking back up on what I was saying about taking a big chance when I left TWI.. . as time went on I found myself broadening my view of where to look for truth. Initially it was still focused on the Bible but at least I was making a concerted effort to remove the PFAL colored glasses – by getting a little more familiar with the biblical languages & resources available.
I also got into checking out some commentaries & systematic theology. I guess some of this could be considered taking a guided tour – yes, but with a twist. Now armed with some critical thinking skills & a growing knowledge of the raw technical data of the Bible – I felt I could check out the tour guide’s spiel against what I knew. Maybe it says something about the value of other viewpoints too – it’s checking out the same problem from different angles.
However – there’s another aspect of systematic theology that was probably the springboard into parts unknown [meaning outside the Bible]. By definition systematic theology employs biblical, historical, and philosophical resources to illuminate the practical application of Scripture. The older I get the more I find the philosophic angle so intriguing.
A simple definition of philosophy is the love & pursuit of wisdom by intellectual means & moral self-discipline. It’s something most folks do anyway – or maybe it’s most folks are aware of doing it.. .hmm still not exactly right.. .maybe it’s most folks who have dropped a cultic mindset, tired of being force-fed and who take an active role in the process - pursuing wisdom, “truth”, or whatever it is they’re drawn to – using their noodle to analyze rather than absorb stuff.
When I first came to Grease Spot my touchstone for knowledge was the Bible. That being the standard upon which I based judgment. My attitude toward it also most certainly made it a gateway – the only means of entry for knowledge. The basis for allowing entry was simple – if it ain’t in the Bible it ain’t worth knowing.. .
so it’s been a gradual shift of the touchstone – or maybe getting a little more honest by acknowledging the basis for me to evaluate stuff is nothing more than a personal philosophy - and while I still read the Bible I don't limit myself to that being the only place to look for answers - I like to keep my options open and have grown accustomed to many things in my belief system being in a state of flux. Am I willing to take such a risk? You bet! Is it a flawed process? Absolutely. Does it work? Who knows? For me it does. And you have to be a little more specific in asking “does it work?”. The answer is relative. I’m enjoying life a lot more – not only since I left TWI but by broadening my horizons since joining Grease Spot.
~~
~~
Be it known to all Grease Spotters from this day forward I’m editing my profile under interests to reflect the addition of a few more hobbies:
from
“Systematic theology, music, movies and cappuccino”
to
“Current interests are movies, cappuccino, and music – in that order; current hobbies are philosophy, playing the bass guitar, target-shooting, and systematic theology – in that order.”
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krys
It's not always easy to predict where and how a thread will develop. At the moment it seems that this has the potential of a rich, full discussion. The ideas of finding truth in the math and science realm (and possibly others) should more correctly go in another thread a bit later.
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geisha779
For me. . . . truth is a person . . . I learn about Him in the scriptures. . . what I see blows me away more than anything I have ever heard before. How He interacted with people, loved them, understood them, and reached out to heal them. . . moves me to worship and praise.
That is my truth. . . .and I have looked around. . .I am now one of those sold out committed Jesus freaks. . . who are rare to emerge from the Way.
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mstar1
Maybe that reveal will happen to me one of these days--Im not closed to it but I havent experienced it so I have no desire to force my square peg into that round hole and attempt to make it happen or worse pretend its happening when its really not....
I have to admit my way experience (and a few subsequent ones) soured my experience with christianity. I was told once too often exactly what "truth" was, and no matter how I tried it just didnt jive completely with the reality that I was experiencing.
Since I was obviously outside their accepted realm of truth it created all sorts of issues for me that were not all that easy to come to terms with... I finally chucked it more or less and worked on figuring out my own self and attempting to live some sort of productive and beneficial life in some sort of decent manner as I see it
If that gets Jesus or some other deity upset--well Im willing to accept that--he/they/them can do with me as they will --- The ride at least was good . I tried, I really did but most of the time I just dont get it
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geisha779
You are a good honest man. Rare breed these days. Although. . . you don't always answer your phone. . . . are you home yet? Or just have caller ID? :)
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mstar1
Was that you? I thought it was a telemarketer calling
Yup Im back here in the arctic tundra aka the berkshires all curled up in blankets and unwilling to move until it warms up
and thats the truth
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George Aar
I think just about everyone who embraces some sort of religious/superstitious notions continually suffers through those moments where "belief" meets "reality". Eventually - if they're honest with themselves and don't let dogmatism reign supreme in some sort of misplaced sense of loyalty - the lessons of life will take a foothold...
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GarthP2000
... until then the beatings of life will continue.
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