"Listening to the small still voice" had a metaphorical aspect, as well.
.
.
.
So, it's not just about hearing audible voices or seeing hallucinations, though Wierwille did, in fact, claim that he did.
Thanks, waysider. Nice post.
It just so happens that I, personally, am waiting to hear God's voice on a certain matter. The problem is, how do separate God's voice from all the other noise that's going on in my head? I'm asking God to give me a sign but I don't know that one is forthcoming.
Once or twice in my life I thought I heard a distinct voice telling me something, but it was either something I already knew, or turned out not to be very important in the grand scheme of things, which in turn leads me to believe that it wasn't really God's voice in my head but the misfiring of over-active neurons.
For what it's worth, one of the things taught in The Way was that you can't ask/tell God to give you a sign. (ala "dew on the fleece"), though this is exactly what Wierwille himself claimed to have done in his tall tale of seeing "snow on the gas pumps" and hearing God's audible voice.
It gets pretty crazy after a while. ----For example
You notice one of your tires needs air. Well, that must be Christ's eyes behind your eyes that noticed it. You notice that a room has a stale odor. Well, it must be the keen sense of smell that Christ's nose behind your nose has that caused you to notice. Pretty soon, you start to believe there is no real value to your own powers of observation. Plus, every little thing that you do notice seems to have a heightened sense of value. How could it not? God thought it was important enough to point it out to you.
Posted Today, 10:49 PM And just in case you did have an accident it was because you missed one or more pieces of this. There are no such things as accidents according to "them".....YOU MISSED IT, so they would brow-beat you into eternity to find our where you missed it.
Ahhhhhh such as it was.........
It gets pretty crazy after a while. ----For example
You notice one of your tires needs air. Well, that must be Christ's eyes behind your eyes that noticed it. You notice that a room has a stale odor. Well, it must be the keen sense of smell that Christ's nose behind your nose has that caused you to notice. Pretty soon, you start to believe there is no real value to your own powers of observation. Plus, every little thing that you do notice seems to have a heightened sense of value. How could it not? God thought it was important enough to point it out to you.
Posted Today, 10:49 PM And just in case you did have an accident it was because you missed one or more pieces of this. There are no such things as accidents according to "them".....YOU MISSED IT, so they would brow-beat you into eternity to find our where you missed it.
Ahhhhhh such as it was.........
It gets pretty crazy after a while. ----For example You notice one of your tires needs air. Well, that must be Christ's eyes behind your eyes that noticed it. You notice that a room has a stale odor. Well, it must be the keen sense of smell that Christ's nose behind your nose has that caused you to notice. Pretty soon, you start to believe there is no real value to your own powers of observation. Plus, every little thing that you do notice seems to have a heightened sense of value. How could it not? God thought it was important enough to point it out to you.
Posted Today, 10:49 PM And just in case you did have an accident it was because you missed one or more pieces of this. There are no such things as accidents according to "them".....YOU MISSED IT, so they would brow-beat you into eternity to find our where you missed it. Ahhhhhh such as it was.........
So, in essence, it means that, even though something may be too trivial for your own ears to pick up, it's supposedly possible for the "Christ in you"'s ears to pick it up. This concept was applied to all five senses. Now, what people would do is observe something they assumed was beyond the realm of ordinary observation and deduce that this was the small still voice of revelation from God.Here's an example. Suppose you are preparing meat that has a slightly "off" odor. Naturally, this MUST be God "telling you" that the meat is spoiled. I'm sure you can think of a multitude of similar examples.
there are other places on this discussion that talk about something similar and this is called "hypervigilence" and is seen a lot in abuse survivors as a coping mechanism to try and keep themselves safe from the next attack by seeing the warning signs before the attack actually happens so they can hide or try to ward off the attack in some way or deflect it. hypervigilence serves its purpose when trying to survive but when it's practiced in non-survival situations it interferes with normal living and can make things so difficult as not to be able to function without the constant threat of danger, which is part of the woes of those that suffer with ptsd. the "reading" of people and situations is quite common not only to abuse survivors, but to con artists too, like "fortune" tellers and "psychics", and even to every day people like sales people and law enforcement people that need to be one step ahead of others, or even politicians and community organizers or anybody, really, that stands out as a leader of people in some way, they "read" people and situations all the time whether they realize it or not. it's not a great "spiritual" thing at all and is really a very "senses" thing to do in the end. and the "still small voice" is something i learned in therapy to recognize as my own inner voice, which is why it was never 100% right. well, duh. how many stories of people waiting for a voice, or even voices, ended up very good? even the bible examples didn't end up very good if you look at them without the magical thinking glasses on. so what i learned in therapy to do was to teach myself to think better so that when i needed to do better, i could. i really like what dr phil says about luck being preparation meeting opportunity. and if you read the bible in its essence as a whole and not in its pieces as a "literal according to translation" interpretation according to some yay who, then you will see that basically the bible says to grow up, get wisdom, work out your own salvation, and have a little faith that the universe does not revolve around you.
If you were young in the 70s (and fairly "normal") I'm sure you left once you started to "grow up".
I know I wasn't the only kid who would ask why only "toothless retards" were the fruit of going witnessing in the 80s, 90s (and 00s).
For what it's worth, Bolshevik - - - I was "grown up" when I first took the class. I guess you missed my point that some (not all) were more interested in learning what might have been beyond the scope of their (my) learning experience at the time, and were willing to invest in the effort to learn. Granted - - - there were those who were promised "pie in the sky", so they signed on for the class as well and didn't get the desired results.
To suggest that your only "toothless retards" took the class, makes me wonder - - - Why are you living where you are, and having folks like that around you? Or - - - did you "grow up", and move away?? If you weren't a "product" of the 70's, please feel fee to refrain from commenting on that whereof you know nothing of. :)
"God always tells you but you don't always listen" so it's your fault you didn't see the low tire that caused the accident.The Christ in you saw the low tire and told you but you weren't in fellowship. That's why you didn't notice. Either you were "believing to have an accident" or you were "not believing to hear the small still voice". It all comes down to "you".
Better do a "check-up from the neck-up", Mister, if you ever want to lead God's people. Gotta get "sharp as a meatball and twice as juicy " if you're ever going to outsmart the old adversary. You better get your nose back into PFAL, speak in tongues "like a house afire", rework those retemory cards and stay on-guard at all times 'cause the adversary is like a lion roaming the streets, just waiting to pounce on you at any moment.
***************************************
Of course, after hearing this speech for the umteenth time, you didn't really need anyone to actually give it to you. You could give it to yourself .
Never mind the fact that you'd been up half the night working on some half-baked ministry assignment and it was very dark where the car was parked. That would just be seeing it from a "senses realm" perspective.
Many people joined twi were already mentally handicapped or just screwed up in general. When have you seen "normals" come to fellowship and then take the class? (well I haven't).
Well, maybe for you, Bolshevik, but most of the people I met were what you'd call "normal." Everyone has needs of one sort or another, even if just the need for companionship. Are you, or were you, so perfect, then? Huh? Who is perfect, who has no needs, no "screw ups"?
Don't you think that is a bit harsh as a generalisation? Are you really accusing everyone here at the Cafe of being "mentally handicapped" or "just screwed up in general"?
What interested me was simply that there was some sort of coherent teaching. I was fed up with churches and wishy-washy stuff - nice people, but no Bible teaching to speak of. And here was someone who took me all sorts of different places in the Bible and (mostly) made it hang together. I'd already been reading for myself and wished I could understand better. The errors in PFAL I flagged away as imperfect knowledge that could be developed or expanded later; after all, it was a research ministry, and I was told that as research gave new light, the Ministry's teachings might change to take account of that. The Dead Sea Scrolls, I was told, were still being examined (for example).
I wasn't mentally handicapped or screwed up. I just wanted to know. And, it appeared, so did all the people who took the class with me or who subsequently passed through various classes. I don't remember any "weirdos", nor were any of the established grads, Corps or other people around, "weird". Some were a bit hard; some were a bit too "black and white", but all were confident in God, and that was a real change from the "if it's God's will" or "maybe" brigade of too many churches.
If you read posts here, you'll find that a lot of other posters also "just wanted to know."
The biggest handicap I had to deal with - was that it was taught by an American! Who was a bit creepy and didn't know the English language as well as he made out. But he still appeared to know more Bible than any church minister I'd encountered. And nobody who taught the Bible would deliberately lie, would they?
"God always tells you but you don't always listen" so it's your fault you didn't see the low tire that caused the accident.The Christ in you saw the low tire and told you but you weren't in fellowship. That's why you didn't notice. Either you were "believing to have an accident" or you were "not believing to hear the small still voice". It all comes down to "you".
Better do a "check-up from the neck-up", Mister, if you ever want to lead God's people. Gotta get "sharp as a meatball and twice as juicy " if you're ever going to outsmart the old adversary. You better get your nose back into PFAL, speak in tongues "like a house afire", rework those retemory cards and stay on-guard at all times 'cause the adversary is like a lion roaming the streets, just waiting to pounce on you at any moment.
***************************************
Of course, after hearing this speech for the umteenth time, you didn't really need anyone to actually give it to you. You could give it to yourself .
Never mind the fact that you'd been up half the night working on some half-baked ministry assignment and it was very dark where the car was parked. That would just be seeing it from a "senses realm" perspective.
yah that's the whole rub of it all is that in the end there just isn't enough energy to keep up the hypervigilence and sooner or later the body is going to give out even if the mind wants to keep it up, but even the mind has to rest, and some therapists are looking at the possibility that some of what has been diagnosed as "bi-polar" might really be the extreme ends of the hypervigilence cycle where one end is the collapse (physical and mental) of sheer exhaustion and the other end is the extreme energy after coming out of such a collapse. it's something i tried to express here at "the cafe" before and i couldn't get it out right or something, and i see that bolshevik is having a similar difficult time, but staying involved in the way international was pretty much because people were either hostages (like us children that had no choice) or were not thinking well for one reason or another. i am not saying that people were mentally ill! what i am saying is that the way international would not be considered a "cult" if it did not practice mental and emotional and spiritual and physical and sexual abuses, and people would not have stayed around if they were not caught in the cycles of those abuses until they felt safe enough to get the heII out.
i'm editing to also say that from a kid's point of view, an adult had to be pretty screwed up to voluntarily join the way international. most of the kids i knew saw right through most of the bs and we could not understand why the adults didn't. but now that i've grown up a little bit and seen how the bs stuck in my head without me even knowing it, i can also see some of how the adults got sucked in.
i'm editing to also say that from a kid's point of view, an adult had to be pretty screwed up to voluntarily join the way international. most of the kids i knew saw right through most of the bs and we could not understand why the adults didn't. but now that i've grown up a little bit and seen how the bs stuck in my head without me even knowing it, i can also see some of how the adults got sucked in.
I don't think many of us thought to ourselves. . . "I think I will join a cult today and ruin my life for awhile". . . .we were preyed upon as well. Victims of our naive desire to make a difference. . . . or our very human existential search for answers. . . . it was suppose to be a class on the bible. Not a cult.
Our heads were messed with pretty good. If it wasn't subtle, we may not have been sucked into it. . . . but, it was a gradual process. . . . people don't join cults . . . they are slowly persuaded. Not all people in cults wear robes and sell flowers. VP was a good old farm boy from Ohio. . . . talking about the BIBLE. A father figure.
Who knew? I didn't.
Lifton's 8
Milieu Control. This involves the control of information and communication both within the environment and, ultimately, within the individual, resulting in a significant degree of isolation from society at large.
Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
Demand for Purity. The world is viewed as black and white and the members are constantly exhorted to conform to the ideology of the group and strive for perfection. The induction of guilt and/or shame is a powerful control device used here.
Confession. Sins, as defined by the group, are to be confessed either to a personal monitor or publicly to the group. There is no confidentiality; members' "sins," "attitudes," and "faults" are discussed and exploited by the leaders.
Sacred Science. The group's doctrine or ideology is considered to be the ultimate Truth, beyond all questioning or dispute. Truth is not to be found outside the group. The leader, as the spokesperson for God or for all humanity, is likewise above criticism.
Doctrine over person. Member's personal experiences are subordinated to the sacred science and any contrary experiences must be denied or reinterpreted to fit the ideology of the group.
Dispensing of existence. The group has the prerogative to decide who has the right to exist and who does not. This is usually not literal but means that those in the outside world are not saved, unenlightened, unconscious and they must be converted to the group's ideology. If they do not join the group or are critical of the group, then they must be rejected by the members. Thus, the outside world loses all credibility. In conjunction, should any member leave the group, he or she must be rejected also. (Lifton, 1989)
I think the greatest challenge post TWI is to retain any kind of faith at all. . . they took a great deal . . . . including balance.
...and if you read the bible in its essence as a whole and not in its pieces as a "literal according to translation" interpretation according to some yay who, then you will see that basically the bible says to grow up, get wisdom, work out your own salvation, and have a little faith that the universe does not revolve around you.
Well said. And I agree with you.
But, taken to its logical end, knowing that the universe does not revolve around us produces (in me, anyway) a sad, existential loneliness. We are alone.
Most Christians I know do not feel this way. They believe that God is with them most of the time and/or that He "talks" to them occasionally. A belief in the Christian God necessariy encompasses this belief, otherwise, of what comfort is God? Why pray?
Personally, I do pray, although it rarely produces comfort.
oh yes geisha it is very subtle and that's what i mean when i say that i didn't even know about the stuff that got into my head and how i am now understanding how people got sucked in, and i say "sucked" in instead of "drawn" in because i am "drawn" to things that are decent but i am "sucked" by things that are not, it's just a thing i use to separate things in my head and i don't expect anybody to agree with me or even understand me because it's just for me and my head. and this whole thing about faith is a very interesting discussion because as i grow up i learn that what i had "faith" in had very little to do with a "god" or anything "spiritual" and had mostly to do with what is "clinically" called "magical thinking" or in every day terms something like "santa claus" or "cinderella" thinking and it goes something like "if i'm good enough then i will get ______" or "when the right _______ comes along then my life will be happy and whole". and the basis of the thinking is that i somehow control how everything turns out in this world, and that just isn't so by a long shot. so to me real faith is understanding that there may not be anything "out there" at all, but that the "miracle" is how something as lowly and easily killed off as all the species here on earth has even survived, and all the balances and all the nuances it took to even have life in the first place or even have a planet or two that would support life, and this satisfies me that there must be something way too big to even comprehend. and i prefer to have my faith in something i cannot comprehend because if i can even begin to comprehend something, then it no longer is something i should have faith in because if i can comprehend it, then it is no better than me! so the whole figuring out god stuff is bs!
As an outsider looking in just an observastion on my part. It seem to me that taking courses like "defeating the adversery" it seems to me. I like input if you think I am wrong that in some cases not all people who got involved in the twi. that some people who has had problems in there life. that the"retemories" that made up word. can help someone mentally can take ones pain away but at the same time takes one's ability away to think for themselves.
I think it is important to note, at this time, that people literally lost their lives because of this doctrine. Consider, for a moment, all the pain and agony that was suffered due to the L.E.A.D. program. People were raped, robbed, lost appendages, killed in traffic accidents and committed suicide because they trusted that their "leaders" were acting on revelation. They trusted that their "leaders" would be "spiritually sharp enough" to know that something was drastically wrong. They ignored their own better judgment and common sense in favor of "the law of believing" and a blind confidence that God would surely "tell" them if danger was imminent. It's not just some quirky, nutty, innocuous way to go through life. It's a very dangerous way to conduct one's thinking. For most of us, we learned to think like this in The Way.
As an outsider looking in just an observastion on my part. It seem to me that taking courses like "defeating the adversery" it seems to me. I like input if you think I am wrong that in some cases not all people who got involved in the twi. that some people who has had problems in there life. that the"retemories" that made up word. can help someone mentally can take ones pain away but at the same time takes one's ability away to think for themselves
It's not just some quirky, nutty, innocuous way to go through life. It's a very dangerous way to conduct one's thinking.
Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
i got to see this firsthand in a "real world" experience yesterday and it gave me the shivers something awful! i was taking care of a person that has lung cancer and she is very frightened and holds onto any "hope" she can and her "sister" (she has no siblings but she calls this woman "sister") told her a story that i couldn't believe she latched onto but then when i saw where her "sister" was going with things i shivered. this "sister" told this woman that on the city bus on her way over to visit she actually convinced the driver of the city bus to stop the bus and let her lead the whole bus in prayer for 5 minutes for this person. ok now. this is in a large metropolitan area and right now there is snow and ice on the streets. i didn't believe that story for one minute and when the woman with the lung cancer started crying and feeling all special and like her "sister" had pulled off some miracle i got the shivers and thought "oh my god this is what geisha was talking about on that list!" and it turned out that the "sister" was trying to get power of attorney over this woman because of a big life insurance policy. and she got it. now here's the thing that's even worse. this "sister" has visited this woman only twice and both times it was to get something from her, and this "sister" never shows up to help and never brings any cards or flowers or even tries to cheer this woman up at all but argues with her and bullies her and intimidates her, but because the doctors consider this woman to be "of sound mind" there's not a thing anybody can do about her signing that power of attorney over to this "sister". so people don't have to be mentally screwed up or anything to get hornswoggled, but just being in a place of wanting something is enough.
Mystical Manipulation.There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
I've posted before about a certain middle of the night emergency meeting in Fellow Laborers that "just so happened to coincide" with a certain middle of the night emergency meeting that was taking place in the Corps.
Another familiar example of Mystical Manipulation. . . . IMO. . . . was SIT. It was not set up to be spontaneous, however, we were led into it. . . . either during the last session of the class, by way of RTHS book, or by someone who had taken the class.
Didn't it set VP up as someone spiritual? Someone who had great insight into the mysteries of God? It did serve to give him credibility. Didn't it make him look spiritually advanced? Give him some divine authority along with all his special revelation?
I KNOW this ticks some people off here, but just stop and consider. . . . please. Look at it from a biblical perspective if it helps. . . . . with all the scripture we can regurgitate, does any of it sound like God is going to unlock the mysteries of "perfect prayer" supposedly hidden since the 1st century. . . . . to a drunk who abused unstable young women for sport? Even if he did "borrow" the method. . . . there are real ministers out there for God to enlighten.
It can be induced. . . I led people into SIT while I was a WOW. . . . a few of them unsure there was a God. Fence sitters. If you set people up and the conditions are right. . . . anyone can do it.
Other religions, that have nothing to do with Christianity, SIT. . . does that mean it is their proof of the new birth as well? Wasn't it suppose to be a special gift for Christians to know that they know?
I am thinking. . . maybe. . . . VP just may have mislead us. .
I think it is important to note, at this time, that people literally lost their lives because of this doctrine. Consider, for a moment, all the pain and agony that was suffered due to the L.E.A.D. program.
That's a messed up story. And I feel terrible about that lady who eventually died. But strangely -- because I don't know if this was your intended point -- what I took away from it was that nobody was killed, although several (or all) could easily have been. It seems to me that God might actually have been watching over this group.
Does God ever "watch out" for anybody? I don't know. I can say this: given how reckless I was at times in my life I was always sure that there had to be a "guardian angel" watching over me -- otherwise, I'd be dead. Or is it all just "pure luck"?
As a news-junkie who reads the paper daily, this is something I struggle with: so many terrible things happen to so many innocent people. But supposedly God is always watching, and he knows everyone's heart. And yet, how could an innocent person have done anything to deserve a terrible, senseless fate? Praying, believing, "moving mountains"...but who among us would not want to "move a mountain" in order to save one child from evil?
As a news-junkie who reads the paper daily, this is something I struggle with: so many terrible things happen to so many innocent people. But supposedly God is always watching, and he knows everyone's heart. And yet, how could an innocent person have done anything to deserve a terrible, senseless fate? Praying, believing, "moving mountains"...but who among us would not want to "move a mountain" in order to save one child from evil?
Good question, soul searcher, but perhaps you'd prefer to start another thread to cover that? Maybe in Doctrinal? It is a question that many, Christian or otherwise, wrestle with. There is a pat TWI answer, but it doesn't match reality in any way.
I think it is important to note, at this time, that people literally lost their lives because of this doctrine. Consider, for a moment, all the pain and agony that was suffered due to the L.E.A.D. program.
Thanks waysider. I am halfway reading the tread. What a terrible tradegy! It make me think as I said in another thead my 2 favorite books are the bible and the I-ching. I will find it and put it on that tread. From the point of view of the chinese. INDIFFRENCE is considered the greatest form of evil. That is not giving or feeling the right emotional responce to a giving situation.
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
12
14
10
5
Popular Days
Jan 2
26
Jan 3
20
Jan 5
14
Jan 1
11
Top Posters In This Topic
geisha779 12 posts
waysider 14 posts
brainfixed 10 posts
soul searcher 5 posts
Popular Days
Jan 2 2010
26 posts
Jan 3 2010
20 posts
Jan 5 2010
14 posts
Jan 1 2010
11 posts
Popular Posts
brainfixed
yah it's like being in preschool or something and playing "mother may i" or something. it's kind of hit me square in the face why it took me so long to learn self determination but here the answer is
T-Bone
then you had idiots like me - rushing cuz I'm late for work or ministry meeting - believing God to make the red light go green "booms quick".
doojable
"Attention to detail" isn't in and of itself a bad thing. If you met an artisan, officer of the law, or even a firefighter you'd agree that attention to detail is why they are successful in what they
soul searcher
Thanks, waysider. Nice post.
It just so happens that I, personally, am waiting to hear God's voice on a certain matter. The problem is, how do separate God's voice from all the other noise that's going on in my head? I'm asking God to give me a sign but I don't know that one is forthcoming.
Once or twice in my life I thought I heard a distinct voice telling me something, but it was either something I already knew, or turned out not to be very important in the grand scheme of things, which in turn leads me to believe that it wasn't really God's voice in my head but the misfiring of over-active neurons.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
For what it's worth, one of the things taught in The Way was that you can't ask/tell God to give you a sign. (ala "dew on the fleece"), though this is exactly what Wierwille himself claimed to have done in his tall tale of seeing "snow on the gas pumps" and hearing God's audible voice.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
If you were young in the 70s (and fairly "normal") I'm sure you left once you started to "grow up".
I know I wasn't the only kid who would ask why only "toothless retards" were the fruit of going witnessing in the 80s, 90s (and 00s).
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I got in during the 80's and I still have all my teeth. :)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penworks
I was one of those, too.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
krys
double post
Posted Today, 10:49 PM And just in case you did have an accident it was because you missed one or more pieces of this. There are no such things as accidents according to "them".....YOU MISSED IT, so they would brow-beat you into eternity to find our where you missed it.
Ahhhhhh such as it was.........
Posted Today, 10:49 PM And just in case you did have an accident it was because you missed one or more pieces of this. There are no such things as accidents according to "them".....YOU MISSED IT, so they would brow-beat you into eternity to find our where you missed it.
Ahhhhhh such as it was.........
Posted Today, 10:49 PM And just in case you did have an accident it was because you missed one or more pieces of this. There are no such things as accidents according to "them".....YOU MISSED IT, so they would brow-beat you into eternity to find our where you missed it. Ahhhhhh such as it was.........
Edited by krysLink to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
there are other places on this discussion that talk about something similar and this is called "hypervigilence" and is seen a lot in abuse survivors as a coping mechanism to try and keep themselves safe from the next attack by seeing the warning signs before the attack actually happens so they can hide or try to ward off the attack in some way or deflect it. hypervigilence serves its purpose when trying to survive but when it's practiced in non-survival situations it interferes with normal living and can make things so difficult as not to be able to function without the constant threat of danger, which is part of the woes of those that suffer with ptsd. the "reading" of people and situations is quite common not only to abuse survivors, but to con artists too, like "fortune" tellers and "psychics", and even to every day people like sales people and law enforcement people that need to be one step ahead of others, or even politicians and community organizers or anybody, really, that stands out as a leader of people in some way, they "read" people and situations all the time whether they realize it or not. it's not a great "spiritual" thing at all and is really a very "senses" thing to do in the end. and the "still small voice" is something i learned in therapy to recognize as my own inner voice, which is why it was never 100% right. well, duh. how many stories of people waiting for a voice, or even voices, ended up very good? even the bible examples didn't end up very good if you look at them without the magical thinking glasses on. so what i learned in therapy to do was to teach myself to think better so that when i needed to do better, i could. i really like what dr phil says about luck being preparation meeting opportunity. and if you read the bible in its essence as a whole and not in its pieces as a "literal according to translation" interpretation according to some yay who, then you will see that basically the bible says to grow up, get wisdom, work out your own salvation, and have a little faith that the universe does not revolve around you.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
For what it's worth, Bolshevik - - - I was "grown up" when I first took the class. I guess you missed my point that some (not all) were more interested in learning what might have been beyond the scope of their (my) learning experience at the time, and were willing to invest in the effort to learn. Granted - - - there were those who were promised "pie in the sky", so they signed on for the class as well and didn't get the desired results.
To suggest that your only "toothless retards" took the class, makes me wonder - - - Why are you living where you are, and having folks like that around you? Or - - - did you "grow up", and move away?? If you weren't a "product" of the 70's, please feel fee to refrain from commenting on that whereof you know nothing of. :)
Have a nice day, and Shalom!
Edited by dmillerLink to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Missing It and Hyper-vigilance
"God always tells you but you don't always listen" so it's your fault you didn't see the low tire that caused the accident.The Christ in you saw the low tire and told you but you weren't in fellowship. That's why you didn't notice. Either you were "believing to have an accident" or you were "not believing to hear the small still voice". It all comes down to "you".
Better do a "check-up from the neck-up", Mister, if you ever want to lead God's people. Gotta get "sharp as a meatball and twice as juicy " if you're ever going to outsmart the old adversary. You better get your nose back into PFAL, speak in tongues "like a house afire", rework those retemory cards and stay on-guard at all times 'cause the adversary is like a lion roaming the streets, just waiting to pounce on you at any moment.
***************************************
Of course, after hearing this speech for the umteenth time, you didn't really need anyone to actually give it to you. You could give it to yourself .
Never mind the fact that you'd been up half the night working on some half-baked ministry assignment and it was very dark where the car was parked. That would just be seeing it from a "senses realm" perspective.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Well, maybe for you, Bolshevik, but most of the people I met were what you'd call "normal." Everyone has needs of one sort or another, even if just the need for companionship. Are you, or were you, so perfect, then? Huh? Who is perfect, who has no needs, no "screw ups"?
Don't you think that is a bit harsh as a generalisation? Are you really accusing everyone here at the Cafe of being "mentally handicapped" or "just screwed up in general"?
What interested me was simply that there was some sort of coherent teaching. I was fed up with churches and wishy-washy stuff - nice people, but no Bible teaching to speak of. And here was someone who took me all sorts of different places in the Bible and (mostly) made it hang together. I'd already been reading for myself and wished I could understand better. The errors in PFAL I flagged away as imperfect knowledge that could be developed or expanded later; after all, it was a research ministry, and I was told that as research gave new light, the Ministry's teachings might change to take account of that. The Dead Sea Scrolls, I was told, were still being examined (for example).
I wasn't mentally handicapped or screwed up. I just wanted to know. And, it appeared, so did all the people who took the class with me or who subsequently passed through various classes. I don't remember any "weirdos", nor were any of the established grads, Corps or other people around, "weird". Some were a bit hard; some were a bit too "black and white", but all were confident in God, and that was a real change from the "if it's God's will" or "maybe" brigade of too many churches.
If you read posts here, you'll find that a lot of other posters also "just wanted to know."
The biggest handicap I had to deal with - was that it was taught by an American! Who was a bit creepy and didn't know the English language as well as he made out. But he still appeared to know more Bible than any church minister I'd encountered. And nobody who taught the Bible would deliberately lie, would they?
Guess the joke was on me.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
yah that's the whole rub of it all is that in the end there just isn't enough energy to keep up the hypervigilence and sooner or later the body is going to give out even if the mind wants to keep it up, but even the mind has to rest, and some therapists are looking at the possibility that some of what has been diagnosed as "bi-polar" might really be the extreme ends of the hypervigilence cycle where one end is the collapse (physical and mental) of sheer exhaustion and the other end is the extreme energy after coming out of such a collapse. it's something i tried to express here at "the cafe" before and i couldn't get it out right or something, and i see that bolshevik is having a similar difficult time, but staying involved in the way international was pretty much because people were either hostages (like us children that had no choice) or were not thinking well for one reason or another. i am not saying that people were mentally ill! what i am saying is that the way international would not be considered a "cult" if it did not practice mental and emotional and spiritual and physical and sexual abuses, and people would not have stayed around if they were not caught in the cycles of those abuses until they felt safe enough to get the heII out.
i'm editing to also say that from a kid's point of view, an adult had to be pretty screwed up to voluntarily join the way international. most of the kids i knew saw right through most of the bs and we could not understand why the adults didn't. but now that i've grown up a little bit and seen how the bs stuck in my head without me even knowing it, i can also see some of how the adults got sucked in.
Edited by brainfixedLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I don't think many of us thought to ourselves. . . "I think I will join a cult today and ruin my life for awhile". . . .we were preyed upon as well. Victims of our naive desire to make a difference. . . . or our very human existential search for answers. . . . it was suppose to be a class on the bible. Not a cult.
Our heads were messed with pretty good. If it wasn't subtle, we may not have been sucked into it. . . . but, it was a gradual process. . . . people don't join cults . . . they are slowly persuaded. Not all people in cults wear robes and sell flowers. VP was a good old farm boy from Ohio. . . . talking about the BIBLE. A father figure.
Who knew? I didn't.
Lifton's 8
I think the greatest challenge post TWI is to retain any kind of faith at all. . . they took a great deal . . . . including balance.
_
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
soul searcher
Well said. And I agree with you.
But, taken to its logical end, knowing that the universe does not revolve around us produces (in me, anyway) a sad, existential loneliness. We are alone.
Most Christians I know do not feel this way. They believe that God is with them most of the time and/or that He "talks" to them occasionally. A belief in the Christian God necessariy encompasses this belief, otherwise, of what comfort is God? Why pray?
Personally, I do pray, although it rarely produces comfort.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
oh yes geisha it is very subtle and that's what i mean when i say that i didn't even know about the stuff that got into my head and how i am now understanding how people got sucked in, and i say "sucked" in instead of "drawn" in because i am "drawn" to things that are decent but i am "sucked" by things that are not, it's just a thing i use to separate things in my head and i don't expect anybody to agree with me or even understand me because it's just for me and my head. and this whole thing about faith is a very interesting discussion because as i grow up i learn that what i had "faith" in had very little to do with a "god" or anything "spiritual" and had mostly to do with what is "clinically" called "magical thinking" or in every day terms something like "santa claus" or "cinderella" thinking and it goes something like "if i'm good enough then i will get ______" or "when the right _______ comes along then my life will be happy and whole". and the basis of the thinking is that i somehow control how everything turns out in this world, and that just isn't so by a long shot. so to me real faith is understanding that there may not be anything "out there" at all, but that the "miracle" is how something as lowly and easily killed off as all the species here on earth has even survived, and all the balances and all the nuances it took to even have life in the first place or even have a planet or two that would support life, and this satisfies me that there must be something way too big to even comprehend. and i prefer to have my faith in something i cannot comprehend because if i can even begin to comprehend something, then it no longer is something i should have faith in because if i can comprehend it, then it is no better than me! so the whole figuring out god stuff is bs!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
nyunknown
As an outsider looking in just an observastion on my part. It seem to me that taking courses like "defeating the adversery" it seems to me. I like input if you think I am wrong that in some cases not all people who got involved in the twi. that some people who has had problems in there life. that the"retemories" that made up word. can help someone mentally can take ones pain away but at the same time takes one's ability away to think for themselves.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I think it is important to note, at this time, that people literally lost their lives because of this doctrine. Consider, for a moment, all the pain and agony that was suffered due to the L.E.A.D. program. People were raped, robbed, lost appendages, killed in traffic accidents and committed suicide because they trusted that their "leaders" were acting on revelation. They trusted that their "leaders" would be "spiritually sharp enough" to know that something was drastically wrong. They ignored their own better judgment and common sense in favor of "the law of believing" and a blind confidence that God would surely "tell" them if danger was imminent. It's not just some quirky, nutty, innocuous way to go through life. It's a very dangerous way to conduct one's thinking. For most of us, we learned to think like this in The Way.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
yes waysider that's it really, isn't it?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
brainfixed
i got to see this firsthand in a "real world" experience yesterday and it gave me the shivers something awful! i was taking care of a person that has lung cancer and she is very frightened and holds onto any "hope" she can and her "sister" (she has no siblings but she calls this woman "sister") told her a story that i couldn't believe she latched onto but then when i saw where her "sister" was going with things i shivered. this "sister" told this woman that on the city bus on her way over to visit she actually convinced the driver of the city bus to stop the bus and let her lead the whole bus in prayer for 5 minutes for this person. ok now. this is in a large metropolitan area and right now there is snow and ice on the streets. i didn't believe that story for one minute and when the woman with the lung cancer started crying and feeling all special and like her "sister" had pulled off some miracle i got the shivers and thought "oh my god this is what geisha was talking about on that list!" and it turned out that the "sister" was trying to get power of attorney over this woman because of a big life insurance policy. and she got it. now here's the thing that's even worse. this "sister" has visited this woman only twice and both times it was to get something from her, and this "sister" never shows up to help and never brings any cards or flowers or even tries to cheer this woman up at all but argues with her and bullies her and intimidates her, but because the doctors consider this woman to be "of sound mind" there's not a thing anybody can do about her signing that power of attorney over to this "sister". so people don't have to be mentally screwed up or anything to get hornswoggled, but just being in a place of wanting something is enough.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Mystical Manipulation. There is manipulation of experiences that appear spontaneous but in fact were planned and orchestrated by the group or its leaders in order to demonstrate divine authority or spiritual advancement or some special gift or talent that will then allow the leader to reinterpret events, scripture, and experiences as he or she wishes.
I've posted before about a certain middle of the night emergency meeting in Fellow Laborers that "just so happened to coincide"
with a certain middle of the night emergency meeting that was taking place in the Corps.
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
Another familiar example of Mystical Manipulation. . . . IMO. . . . was SIT. It was not set up to be spontaneous, however, we were led into it. . . . either during the last session of the class, by way of RTHS book, or by someone who had taken the class.
Didn't it set VP up as someone spiritual? Someone who had great insight into the mysteries of God? It did serve to give him credibility. Didn't it make him look spiritually advanced? Give him some divine authority along with all his special revelation?
I KNOW this ticks some people off here, but just stop and consider. . . . please. Look at it from a biblical perspective if it helps. . . . . with all the scripture we can regurgitate, does any of it sound like God is going to unlock the mysteries of "perfect prayer" supposedly hidden since the 1st century. . . . . to a drunk who abused unstable young women for sport? Even if he did "borrow" the method. . . . there are real ministers out there for God to enlighten.
It can be induced. . . I led people into SIT while I was a WOW. . . . a few of them unsure there was a God. Fence sitters. If you set people up and the conditions are right. . . . anyone can do it.
Other religions, that have nothing to do with Christianity, SIT. . . does that mean it is their proof of the new birth as well? Wasn't it suppose to be a special gift for Christians to know that they know?
I am thinking. . . maybe. . . . VP just may have mislead us. .
http://bible.org/art...peaking-tongues
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
rascal
Yup, the *fruit* he manifested would appear to support this possibility.
I just don`t think that God would have had anything to do with leading us to a place where we would be abused and exploited. It`s an insult, imo
Link to comment
Share on other sites
soul searcher
That's a messed up story. And I feel terrible about that lady who eventually died. But strangely -- because I don't know if this was your intended point -- what I took away from it was that nobody was killed, although several (or all) could easily have been. It seems to me that God might actually have been watching over this group.
Does God ever "watch out" for anybody? I don't know. I can say this: given how reckless I was at times in my life I was always sure that there had to be a "guardian angel" watching over me -- otherwise, I'd be dead. Or is it all just "pure luck"?
As a news-junkie who reads the paper daily, this is something I struggle with: so many terrible things happen to so many innocent people. But supposedly God is always watching, and he knows everyone's heart. And yet, how could an innocent person have done anything to deserve a terrible, senseless fate? Praying, believing, "moving mountains"...but who among us would not want to "move a mountain" in order to save one child from evil?
Edited by soul searcherLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Good question, soul searcher, but perhaps you'd prefer to start another thread to cover that? Maybe in Doctrinal? It is a question that many, Christian or otherwise, wrestle with. There is a pat TWI answer, but it doesn't match reality in any way.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
nyunknown
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.