Years of the word and I am farther from the truth than when I started. I don't believe in anything anymore other than I am alive and that is all I know. Religion is nothing but a farce and if God wants to make the truth known then why not show him/her self? Faith in God is nothing more than a delusion that distracts people from the reality that we are really alone.
Now if you can just maintain that attitude in a holding pattern for an indefinite period – you may be in for some surprises. imho, that's when the real adventure starts.
I've gone through several crises of faith since I left TWI and think I'm better off because of it. Don't get me wrong – not suggesting I'm some kind of standard or norm for leaving a cult or that you're having a crisis of faith.
I'm just saying that you might be experiencing a type of breakthrough similar to what I've had – several times as a matter of fact. And maybe my choice of words "crises of faith" is not appropriate for what you're feeling – because I don't want to imply your experience is a typical of a Christian's period of intense doubt or inner conflict over matters of faith and you'll snap out of it.. .
.. .but anyway – and let me preface this by saying I could be VERY WRONG since I'm not an expert on anything other than my own personal journey – you may be describing a personal breakthrough of conventions – the conventions being some acceptable norm for processing the Bible, a residual mindset from association with some group or whatever.
Just been rambling here – sorry if I'm going all over the place – but your two posts really touched a nerve with me in a good sense, mind you–and a lot of this I merely write for my own benefit – articulating some growth I'm experiencing - – anyway, what you're going through is truly marvelous, humbling and genuine. Getting back to my own experiences – I may have had several like it. After I left TWI – a different method opened up to me of how to approach the Bible that took me down the road of systematic theology and comparing commentaries. Maybe it was getting familiar with the territory and learning about more options or other viewpoints – and starting to develop some critical thinking skills.
But I think a whole other avenue of learning opens up when you dialog with other folks. And that's where Grease Spot comes in. That's where I've experienced several significant breakthroughs – pushing my critical thinking skills to another level – and it's definitely had an impact on the way I "process" my faith.
I still consider myself a Christian but it would probably surprise some to hear me say some of my favorite Grease Spotters are NOT Christians [most notably Oakspear, GarthP2000, George Aar and Seth] – I always enjoy reading their posts. And not only do I appreciate their thoughtful input on threads – but perhaps more so because of their honesty & humility. And you really should check out other forums more besides doctrinal – you might enjoy visiting with folks.
Now reading some of their posts - it's not a warm & fuzzy feeling like "I really got blessed at the Word you shared today in Twig, man!" Sometimes it's a jolt of espresso to wake me up, sometimes a friendly slap in the face from reality. Bottom line – it helps me process my faith in the context of the real world. I've covered a lot of ground – doctrinally speaking, since I left TWI – and I too feel like I'm farther from the truth then when I started – maybe it's just realizing how much I don't know or can figure out. But I've grown accustomed to the unsure nature of this journey.
You are still someone – maybe not the someone you were before - in another mindset, perhaps becoming more genuine as you start to uncover the authentic self – and now can work on discovering your voice. I'm still discovering my voice – have a long way to go I imagine– it's changing a lot since I first joined Grease Spot a few years ago.
Best wishes on your journey, hope to see you here in full blossom
Don't know.. .and the predicament and/or resolution may be a matter of perception anyway. If you want an opinion of your situation - from my standpoint - you've just made a significant step forward. And if it's any consolation to you - personally I feel with as much as my belief system is in a state of flux - I don't really get a sense of standing still.
All these years of study thinking I was growing in the word all to come to a state where I don't believe anything. So I am nothing... and only as nothing do I feel that I bear the image of God.
Years of the word and I am farther from the truth than when I started. I don't believe in anything anymore other than I am alive and that is all I know. Religion is nothing but a farce and if God wants to make the truth known then why not show him/her self? Faith in God is nothing more than a delusion that distracts people from the reality that we are really alone.
I don't necessarily think faith in God is a delusion. Faith itself is a healing force -- it's been demonstrated scientifically. Even the so-called "placebo effect" in experimental studies is direct evidence of the power of faith. Simply believing that a treatment will have a specific beneficial effect can result in that benefit being manifested in some subjects, even if those subjects weren't really given the treatment. This is seen even after controlling for confounding effects such as spontaneous remission and random variation.
The placebo effect is one of the great mysteries of science. And it's one of the reasons that clinical trials of new pharmaceuticals are "double-blind" -- neither the researcher nor the subject knows if the treatment is actually being administered. There is an experimental "effect" for believing.
Aside from all that, there is a force, which I like to call God, that is responsible for the creation of new life, cell reproduction, and healing. Maybe this force created the universe, too. Who knows? I don't.
As far as "religion" goes: was it Hemingway that said "religion is the opiate of the people"?
I don't necessarily think faith in God is a delusion. Faith itself is a healing force -- it's been demonstrated scientifically. Even the so-called "placebo effect" in experimental studies is direct evidence of the power of faith. Simply believing that a treatment will have a specific beneficial effect can result in that benefit being manifested in some subjects, even if those subjects weren't really given the treatment. This is seen even after controlling for confounding effects such as spontaneous remission and random variation.
The placebo effect is one of the great mysteries of science. And it's one of the reasons that clinical trials of new pharmaceuticals are "double-blind" -- neither the researcher nor the subject knows if the treatment is actually being administered. There is an experimental "effect" for believing.
Aside from all that, there is a force, which I like to call God, that is responsible for the creation of new life, cell reproduction, and healing. Maybe this force created the universe, too. Who knows? I don't.
As far as "religion" goes: was it Hemingway that said "religion is the opiate of the people"?
Romans 8:20 KJV
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
Years of the word and I am farther from the truth than when I started. I don't believe in anything anymore other than I am alive and that is all I know. Religion is nothing but a farce and if God wants to make the truth known then why not show him/her self? Faith in God is nothing more than a delusion that distracts people from the reality that we are really alone.
My son played music at a funeral toay. . . . a really sad event. . . . the woman who died left beind both her parents and her children. A reminder that life is so fleeting, and yet eternity is set in our hearts. Is that a cruel joke of evolution, or is it by design? I believe it is by design.
Even though people were so sad today, they had a very moving hope. That being. . . . God is.
Many of them comforted by faith in Him.
I don't know about years in the word anymore. . . at all. . . to me, it is really a means to an end. . . pointing me to the person Jesus, who is the truth. There is not much in there that does not relate back to Him and the only "truths" I really understand anymore are in Him.
Maybe we just can't sustain an intimate relationship with a book and were never meant to?
____________________________________
I read this comment often. . . . in varying forms around here ". . . if God wants to make the truth known then why not show him/herself?"
Well, He did.
Jesus came to declare Him. . . . to reveal Him. According to scripture, that is how God made Himself known to us. . . . in the person of Jesus Christ .
____________________________________
Sometimes I think all the things thrown at us in life are just a distraction from the reality of Him.
I had to ask myself if I was looking for some secret truth, some special knowledge . . . . or did I just want God?
Dialing it back to the most basic of life's questions. . . stripping away all the years of life's ability to jade. . . and listening like a child to the simple answers Jesus gives us. . . . . . . I believe we can catch a glimpse of truth.
Even Paul the apostle and the other disciples/apostles are suspect to me.
I see the entire first century church as the product of a bunch of people who realized they could not go back to Judaism and the Romans were too decadent and the Greeks seemed to have a monopoly on knowledge so they made up a story to perpetuate a subset of laws and place the fear of God upon the human mind.
So they fabricated this Jesus as the sun going through the seasons to satisfy the pagans they had his fulfill the law to please the Jews and had him speak in parables to satisfy the Greeks and the martyred him to make us all feel "heavy and gloomy" and the world bought it and await his return.
We have been raised to depend upon something other than ourselves for our own sufficiency. We are told we all desire eternal life when it is simply the will to survive that we attained through millions of years of evolution...
I see the entire first century church as the product of a bunch of people who realized they could not go back to Judaism and the Romans were too decadent and the Greeks seemed to have a monopoly on knowledge so they made up a story to perpetuate a subset of laws and place the fear of God upon the human mind.
I find this part rather interesting.
Perhaps there's some sort of parallel analogy with the "Way Corps Only" site participants going back to the good old days. Do you suppose, centuries from now, that people will labor over transcripts from that site and marvel that Wierwille was able to change coffee into Drambuie or that he could cause a glass eye to die from the bottom up instead of top to bottom?----"For the time of ophthalmic prosthetics was not yet."
Perhaps there's some sort of parallel analogy with the "Way Corps Only" site participants going back to the good old days. Do you suppose, centuries from now, that people will labor over transcripts from that site and marvel that Wierwille was able to change coffee into Drambuie or that he could could cause a glass eye to die from the bottom up instead of top to bottom?----"For the time of ophthalmic prosthetics was not yet."
It may be difficult in our age to fabricate a deism because the printed word has eclipsed the trickery of mere word of mouth.
Revelation 1:16 KJV
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Even Paul the apostle and the other disciples/apostles are suspect to me.
I hope there is a happy ending to all of this..
there was one for me..
suppose you found all you believed was wrong.. so friggin what..
is there joy and gladness in this.. or mourning.. the key question is, what do you do, NOW..
I was lucky..
I keep looking.. where will the path lead..
every dream I've had has come to pass.. except for the last one..
I'm in a very tall building.. everyone else around me is clothed in white.. the building is made of twenty meter tall glass walls.. only made of glass.. we are all clothed in white..
Like Ham said. So what if you don't believe in Jesus? Sixty seven percent of the World's population professes to NOT believe in Jesus.---- HERE---- And, you have to think that at least some of the other 33%, who say they do, are only doing so to placate someone else.
suppose you found all you believed was wrong.. so friggin what..
is there joy and gladness in this.. or mourning.. the key question is, what do you do, NOW..
I was lucky..
I keep looking.. where will the path lead..
every dream I've had has come to pass.. except for the last one..
I'm in a very tall building.. everyone else around me is clothed in white.. the building is made of twenty meter tall glass walls.. only made of glass.. we are all clothed in white..
what is it..
the closest this relm has had to offer..
heh..
About 600 of us.. clothed in Black..
I think "hope" is the functional word. Considering if god is not coming soon we will all grow old and senile and the truth will not really matter at that point. Only what we once were.
No one knows what the future holds other than to judge by how the past was.
Yes love is the only thing that matters and even that is subjective.
Face it life is quite often morbid and if faith can help relieve the bitter sting of life then so be it.
Maybe Job and his dilemma really is that fear is part of life like it or lump it. Yet we create God to explain and maybe alter what is and may always be.
We will never really know the will of God in the face of simple chance. Just as we feel the need to survive we are also predisposed to take a gamble.
So shall we blame our parents for our defects and blame spirits for genetic and biological illness?
I tend to think not. It would be nice if life was a paradise. I am tired of being led by superstition.
it absolutely drives others, including family and friends, and myself, NUTS..
but I know who I am..
it might be very, very small.. but yes, that's who I am..
the vision I saw.. it was one place I belonged..
The black and white imagery of your dream is to me a sign of possibly an uncompromising personality that relies on superlatives, on ideals rather than the reality of things.
To me red is a color that seems center to the spectrum and represents balance and a desire to ground the tendency to go to extremes.
I vote for red drapes in the kitchen, anyone second that? :)
Like Ham said. So what if you don't believe in Jesus? Sixty seven percent of the World's population professes to NOT believe in Jesus.---- HERE---- And, you have to think that at least some of the other 33%, who say they do, are only doing so to placate someone else.
I think it matters if that is the way the creator God chose to declare Himself to us. The verses in scripture that speak about no one knowing God except through Jesus are actually not exclusionary verses IF that is how God did it. . . . than that is the way to Him.
We can chose to believe whatever we want. . . . we can believe it doesn't matter because there are many ways. . . . we can chose another path. . . . but, not everything is true and corresponds with a reality.
And. . . . it always comes down to "Who do you say I am?"
You can say a figment of imagination, a nice guy, a rebel, one way to God, the way, the truth, and the life. . . . but, 2,000+ years later we are STILL answering that question.
I vote for red drapes in the kitchen, anyone second that? :)
No way!
Red drapes are what killed that little boy in PLAF (The Wonder Class).
See, when he got hit by the car, the lady in the apartment across the street just happened to notice all the commotion. She yanked those red drapes off the rod and ran out to the street to use them as a make-shift stretcher. In her haste, she ran right into the path of an oncoming septic tank cleaning truck. He swerved to miss her and, well, you already know the outcome.
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DrWearWord
Years of the word and I am farther from the truth than when I started. I don't believe in anything anymore other than I am alive and that is all I know. Religion is nothing but a farce and if God wants to make the truth known then why not show him/her self? Faith in God is nothing more than a delusion that distracts people from the reality that we are really alone.
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waysider
None of us are who we "used to be", for better or for worse. Still, that doesn't mean you are no longer "someone".
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T-Bone
Now if you can just maintain that attitude in a holding pattern for an indefinite period – you may be in for some surprises. imho, that's when the real adventure starts.
I've gone through several crises of faith since I left TWI and think I'm better off because of it. Don't get me wrong – not suggesting I'm some kind of standard or norm for leaving a cult or that you're having a crisis of faith.
I'm just saying that you might be experiencing a type of breakthrough similar to what I've had – several times as a matter of fact. And maybe my choice of words "crises of faith" is not appropriate for what you're feeling – because I don't want to imply your experience is a typical of a Christian's period of intense doubt or inner conflict over matters of faith and you'll snap out of it.. .
.. .but anyway – and let me preface this by saying I could be VERY WRONG since I'm not an expert on anything other than my own personal journey – you may be describing a personal breakthrough of conventions – the conventions being some acceptable norm for processing the Bible, a residual mindset from association with some group or whatever.
Just been rambling here – sorry if I'm going all over the place – but your two posts really touched a nerve with me in a good sense, mind you–and a lot of this I merely write for my own benefit – articulating some growth I'm experiencing - – anyway, what you're going through is truly marvelous, humbling and genuine. Getting back to my own experiences – I may have had several like it. After I left TWI – a different method opened up to me of how to approach the Bible that took me down the road of systematic theology and comparing commentaries. Maybe it was getting familiar with the territory and learning about more options or other viewpoints – and starting to develop some critical thinking skills.
But I think a whole other avenue of learning opens up when you dialog with other folks. And that's where Grease Spot comes in. That's where I've experienced several significant breakthroughs – pushing my critical thinking skills to another level – and it's definitely had an impact on the way I "process" my faith.
I still consider myself a Christian but it would probably surprise some to hear me say some of my favorite Grease Spotters are NOT Christians [most notably Oakspear, GarthP2000, George Aar and Seth] – I always enjoy reading their posts. And not only do I appreciate their thoughtful input on threads – but perhaps more so because of their honesty & humility. And you really should check out other forums more besides doctrinal – you might enjoy visiting with folks.
Now reading some of their posts - it's not a warm & fuzzy feeling like "I really got blessed at the Word you shared today in Twig, man!" Sometimes it's a jolt of espresso to wake me up, sometimes a friendly slap in the face from reality. Bottom line – it helps me process my faith in the context of the real world. I've covered a lot of ground – doctrinally speaking, since I left TWI – and I too feel like I'm farther from the truth then when I started – maybe it's just realizing how much I don't know or can figure out. But I've grown accustomed to the unsure nature of this journey.
You are still someone – maybe not the someone you were before - in another mindset, perhaps becoming more genuine as you start to uncover the authentic self – and now can work on discovering your voice. I'm still discovering my voice – have a long way to go I imagine– it's changing a lot since I first joined Grease Spot a few years ago.
Best wishes on your journey, hope to see you here in full blossom
Love & peace
T-Bone
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DrWearWord
It seems the more forward I walk the more I realize I am still standing still. How do you resolve a contradiction but with a conundrum.
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T-Bone
Don't know.. .and the predicament and/or resolution may be a matter of perception anyway. If you want an opinion of your situation - from my standpoint - you've just made a significant step forward. And if it's any consolation to you - personally I feel with as much as my belief system is in a state of flux - I don't really get a sense of standing still.
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DrWearWord
All these years of study thinking I was growing in the word all to come to a state where I don't believe anything. So I am nothing... and only as nothing do I feel that I bear the image of God.
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soul searcher
I don't necessarily think faith in God is a delusion. Faith itself is a healing force -- it's been demonstrated scientifically. Even the so-called "placebo effect" in experimental studies is direct evidence of the power of faith. Simply believing that a treatment will have a specific beneficial effect can result in that benefit being manifested in some subjects, even if those subjects weren't really given the treatment. This is seen even after controlling for confounding effects such as spontaneous remission and random variation.
The placebo effect is one of the great mysteries of science. And it's one of the reasons that clinical trials of new pharmaceuticals are "double-blind" -- neither the researcher nor the subject knows if the treatment is actually being administered. There is an experimental "effect" for believing.
Aside from all that, there is a force, which I like to call God, that is responsible for the creation of new life, cell reproduction, and healing. Maybe this force created the universe, too. Who knows? I don't.
As far as "religion" goes: was it Hemingway that said "religion is the opiate of the people"?
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DrWearWord
Romans 8:20 KJV
For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,
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waysider
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geisha779
My son played music at a funeral toay. . . . a really sad event. . . . the woman who died left beind both her parents and her children. A reminder that life is so fleeting, and yet eternity is set in our hearts. Is that a cruel joke of evolution, or is it by design? I believe it is by design.
Even though people were so sad today, they had a very moving hope. That being. . . . God is.
Many of them comforted by faith in Him.
I don't know about years in the word anymore. . . at all. . . to me, it is really a means to an end. . . pointing me to the person Jesus, who is the truth. There is not much in there that does not relate back to Him and the only "truths" I really understand anymore are in Him.
Maybe we just can't sustain an intimate relationship with a book and were never meant to?
____________________________________
I read this comment often. . . . in varying forms around here ". . . if God wants to make the truth known then why not show him/herself?"
Well, He did.
Jesus came to declare Him. . . . to reveal Him. According to scripture, that is how God made Himself known to us. . . . in the person of Jesus Christ .
____________________________________
Sometimes I think all the things thrown at us in life are just a distraction from the reality of Him.
I had to ask myself if I was looking for some secret truth, some special knowledge . . . . or did I just want God?
Dialing it back to the most basic of life's questions. . . stripping away all the years of life's ability to jade. . . and listening like a child to the simple answers Jesus gives us. . . . . . . I believe we can catch a glimpse of truth.
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Ham
Maybe you need to look into the light for about 9/10 of a second..
I did something like that once..
so what if everything you believed was just plain WRONG..
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Ham
Sooo.. what did you lose, or rather, gain, by the experience.. I've lost and gained quite a bit..
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DrWearWord
I don't even believe in Jesus anymore.
Even Paul the apostle and the other disciples/apostles are suspect to me.
I see the entire first century church as the product of a bunch of people who realized they could not go back to Judaism and the Romans were too decadent and the Greeks seemed to have a monopoly on knowledge so they made up a story to perpetuate a subset of laws and place the fear of God upon the human mind.
So they fabricated this Jesus as the sun going through the seasons to satisfy the pagans they had his fulfill the law to please the Jews and had him speak in parables to satisfy the Greeks and the martyred him to make us all feel "heavy and gloomy" and the world bought it and await his return.
We have been raised to depend upon something other than ourselves for our own sufficiency. We are told we all desire eternal life when it is simply the will to survive that we attained through millions of years of evolution...
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waysider
I find this part rather interesting.
Perhaps there's some sort of parallel analogy with the "Way Corps Only" site participants going back to the good old days. Do you suppose, centuries from now, that people will labor over transcripts from that site and marvel that Wierwille was able to change coffee into Drambuie or that he could cause a glass eye to die from the bottom up instead of top to bottom?----"For the time of ophthalmic prosthetics was not yet."
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
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DrWearWord
It may be difficult in our age to fabricate a deism because the printed word has eclipsed the trickery of mere word of mouth.
Revelation 1:16 KJV
And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
Edited by DrWearWordLink to comment
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Ham
I hope there is a happy ending to all of this..
there was one for me..
suppose you found all you believed was wrong.. so friggin what..
is there joy and gladness in this.. or mourning.. the key question is, what do you do, NOW..
I was lucky..
I keep looking.. where will the path lead..
every dream I've had has come to pass.. except for the last one..
I'm in a very tall building.. everyone else around me is clothed in white.. the building is made of twenty meter tall glass walls.. only made of glass.. we are all clothed in white..
what is it..
the closest this relm has had to offer..
heh..
About 600 of us.. clothed in Black..
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waysider
Like Ham said. So what if you don't believe in Jesus? Sixty seven percent of the World's population professes to NOT believe in Jesus.---- HERE---- And, you have to think that at least some of the other 33%, who say they do, are only doing so to placate someone else.
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DrWearWord
I think "hope" is the functional word. Considering if god is not coming soon we will all grow old and senile and the truth will not really matter at that point. Only what we once were.
No one knows what the future holds other than to judge by how the past was.
Yes love is the only thing that matters and even that is subjective.
Face it life is quite often morbid and if faith can help relieve the bitter sting of life then so be it.
Maybe Job and his dilemma really is that fear is part of life like it or lump it. Yet we create God to explain and maybe alter what is and may always be.
We will never really know the will of God in the face of simple chance. Just as we feel the need to survive we are also predisposed to take a gamble.
So shall we blame our parents for our defects and blame spirits for genetic and biological illness?
I tend to think not. It would be nice if life was a paradise. I am tired of being led by superstition.
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Ham
I'm an "eleven"..
I don't know how much sense this all makes..
I'm as stable (spiritually) as water..
it absolutely drives others, including family and friends, and myself, NUTS..
but I know who I am..
it might be very, very small.. but yes, that's who I am..
the vision I saw.. it was one place I belonged..
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DrWearWord
The black and white imagery of your dream is to me a sign of possibly an uncompromising personality that relies on superlatives, on ideals rather than the reality of things.
To me red is a color that seems center to the spectrum and represents balance and a desire to ground the tendency to go to extremes.
I vote for red drapes in the kitchen, anyone second that? :)
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Ham
I was thinking of more.. about seven seconds more into the light..
the more I think about it.. maybe the almighty has some kind of road trip he needs somebody to go on..
hey, I know a little math and chemistry.. maybe they need math plastics, and modern electronics somewhere..
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cheranne
Okay I am just gonna say it,cause I have been exactley where you are at now.
If this is a medical emergency please call 911.
I think lots of people have felt like this too!
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geisha779
I think it matters if that is the way the creator God chose to declare Himself to us. The verses in scripture that speak about no one knowing God except through Jesus are actually not exclusionary verses IF that is how God did it. . . . than that is the way to Him.
We can chose to believe whatever we want. . . . we can believe it doesn't matter because there are many ways. . . . we can chose another path. . . . but, not everything is true and corresponds with a reality.
And. . . . it always comes down to "Who do you say I am?"
You can say a figment of imagination, a nice guy, a rebel, one way to God, the way, the truth, and the life. . . . but, 2,000+ years later we are STILL answering that question.
Am I wrong?
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waysider
No way!
Red drapes are what killed that little boy in PLAF (The Wonder Class).
See, when he got hit by the car, the lady in the apartment across the street just happened to notice all the commotion. She yanked those red drapes off the rod and ran out to the street to use them as a make-shift stretcher. In her haste, she ran right into the path of an oncoming septic tank cleaning truck. He swerved to miss her and, well, you already know the outcome.
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