Cheranne, while Victor Paul Wierwille certainly did not really show compassion to "newbies" (nor did his "Corps"), yet TWI "lovebombed" us with some of the techniques mentioned. Or at least that is how I got involved. But VPW really did not show Christ-like love; rather it was all about him and his "uniqueness"(?), not make Jesus Christ Lord and having authority in our lives. Quote the Bible/Scripture to pretend genuine concern publicly, but bully people in private(especially after they took PFAL and now were in their visor grips). Any other comments on how TWI misused this class from BGEA?
My personal opinion is that he saw how successful Donnie F. was and jumped on the bandwagon. At one time, Dale Carnegie's book, How To Win Friends and Influence People, was required reading.
is it possible Donnie Fugit might have taken the above mentioed class(Christian Life and Witness) and was familar with Carnegie's book, shared his experiences with Wierwille, and the Vicster adapted it to suit his purposes(PFAL)?
is it possible Donnie Fugit might have taken the above mentioed class(Christian Life and Witness) and was familar with Carnegie's book, shared his experiences with Wierwille, and the Vicster adapted it to suit his purposes(PFAL)?
I'm not sure we'll ever know as they are both no longer with us.
I agree. I think that's the part of the recipe that Wierwille missed when he tried to duplicate Donnie's efforts.
Or recognized he didn't have it and actively went in search of those who did, to recruit them .
How many of you were the real deal.. really wanted to serve God..That is what Donnie was .. someone who wanted to serve.
I know I was .. I know that everyone of the people in the two WOW families I was with were the real deal. that is why so many people got hooked... not because of the class so much as because of the whole recipe.
I know My hubby got hooked because of Donnie and his friends.
I got in because of the two WOW guys in my area who were Corps on their interim year.
and I know the people who I witnessed to got involved because of me ...not because of the class...
They took the class because I sold it to them. The same reason I took it.. Someone told me about it and convinced me it was a good idea to take it.
That is what VP counted on, to make it all work... those of us who really were honest.
In my opinion, there were few concepts more condescending and patronizing than 'undershepherding'. The way was hardly alone among religious groups in this form of indoctrination. People were not respected for themselves, and all that made them special, just being who they are. People were regarded as lesser beings, not to be fully accepted, trusted, or respected, until they've bought into the program, and are thinking the 'correct' way, and conducting themselves in the correct manner. In the way it was called' growing in the word', but too often it was learning how to master the stifling lifestyle. I'm not saying there isn't a place, or a merit, in reaching out, guiding, instructing, and being there for people, but I'll pass on the way method.
Cheranne, while Victor Paul Wierwille certainly did not really show compassion to "newbies" (nor did his "Corps")...
TLB....that's quite a broad brush to paint some 3,200 corps in the same "corner" as wierwille. Amazing, that you have that kind of perception and "spiritual awareness"....?????????????
"The best tool in undershepherding is the PFAL Class. (more than once.)"
In my opinion, "undershepherding" was a bastardization of the mentor/protege process.
In a genuine mentoring situation, the mentor will guide the protege in a direction that will enable him/her to discover their own individuality or "voice", if you prefer. The process should ideally aid the protege in realizing their full potential. Undershepherding, on the other hand, simply exploited and abused the process to indoctrinate clones. I don't blame the individuals who did the undershepherding. I blame the process, itself, which was intentionally corrupted to benefit VPW & Co.
i think that what hiway and waysider are saying are on the mark with this because there is a whole big difference between helping people find their own potentials and turning people into what you think they should be, which is why i have such a problem with most religions, corporations, pacs, unions, or whatever you can name that have their own agendas and just need bodies to do their labor and bring in the cash.
It all sounds like W &U, except for the avoiding arguments by welcoming other's opinions, and admitting your own mistakes. There were NO mistakes in way world, and no one's opinions but their own mattered.
TLB....that's quite a broad brush to paint some 3,200 corps in the same "corner" as wierwille. Amazing, that you have that kind of perception and "spiritual awareness"....????????????? quote]not all corps or WOW Ambassadors/Fellow Laborers were bullies. But a lot of Corps were that way or else Wierwille booted them out if they argued or disaggreed with him, or threatened him with police/legal problems. Certainly CG and LCM were bullies and had security to protect them. But we are straying from the topic
The 4 chapters of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association class called Christian Life and Witness Course(for training of couselors for Crusades) are: Effective Christian Life; Victorious Christian Life; Christian's Witness; Follow-up and Care of New Christians(Operation Andrew/Friendship Evangelism). This was originally developed by The Navigators(fishing boat crews).
TLB, so that's why the Navigators got their name, huh?
How to Win Friends etc was required WC reading/study, at least when I was in. I just found my copy and it is written through with scripture verses and Biblical principle, to back up each point made in the book. Whether that was something that was a required mode of study, or just something I did of my own Waybrained volition is too far lost in the mists of time to recall. Yep, learn how to sell PFAL.
In more recent times has been Servant Evangelism by Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Church where Christians are to show compassion such as free car washes, lemonade/ice cream socials(free of cost), sharing water bottles in summer/coffee kiosks for travelers at major traffic/road intersections, mowing grass/raking leaves/snow shoveling driveways without cost. In fact, my church's council now fully fund youth trips and forbids fund raising for such church groups. Now this would have given VPW, LCM, and CG heart attacks. But my 1st post, most of the ingredients were used to entice me with TWI. Unfortunately, a legitimate evangelistic tool was abused to get us involved with this "counterfeit" Christianity.
Has anyone taken the Billy Graham course "Christian Lfe and Witness"(originally developed by The Navigators and also used in Campus Crusaders For Christ), or has done the Servant Evangelism from Willow Creek?
I take it that the answer to my question is no. What a difference if TWI, CFFM, and S&TF had done this. My church as done both programs and trying to do this right after Easter Sunday for the next few weeks during remainder of April and May with actual genuine Christian Love. If no one else cares to respond, this will end this thread.
I take it that the answer to my question is no. What a difference if TWI, CFFM, and S&TF had done this. My church as done both programs and trying to do this right after Easter Sunday for the next few weeks during remainder of April and May with actual genuine Christian Love. If no one else cares to respond, this will end this thread.
My current church did/does things similar to what you describe....at least I know they call it Servant Evangelism. I have kind of shyed away from any type of witnessing thus far.....reminds me too much of twi days. I am low key in that area for now. Most I do is talking to people I work with or see every day in other places.
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cheranne
No not even close.
I knew Navigators and went to bible studies in North Carolina. Navigators are NOT shady
people selling snake oil like Dr. Fat Rat.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Cheranne, while Victor Paul Wierwille certainly did not really show compassion to "newbies" (nor did his "Corps"), yet TWI "lovebombed" us with some of the techniques mentioned. Or at least that is how I got involved. But VPW really did not show Christ-like love; rather it was all about him and his "uniqueness"(?), not make Jesus Christ Lord and having authority in our lives. Quote the Bible/Scripture to pretend genuine concern publicly, but bully people in private(especially after they took PFAL and now were in their visor grips). Any other comments on how TWI misused this class from BGEA?
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waysider
My personal opinion is that he saw how successful Donnie F. was and jumped on the bandwagon. At one time, Dale Carnegie's book, How To Win Friends and Influence People, was required reading.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
is it possible Donnie Fugit might have taken the above mentioed class(Christian Life and Witness) and was familar with Carnegie's book, shared his experiences with Wierwille, and the Vicster adapted it to suit his purposes(PFAL)?
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waysider
I'm not sure we'll ever know as they are both no longer with us.
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Oakspear
Fugit seemed to be genuine to me.
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waysider
I agree. I think that's the part of the recipe that Wierwille missed when he tried to duplicate Donnie's efforts.
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leafytwiglet
Or recognized he didn't have it and actively went in search of those who did, to recruit them .
How many of you were the real deal.. really wanted to serve God..That is what Donnie was .. someone who wanted to serve.
I know I was .. I know that everyone of the people in the two WOW families I was with were the real deal. that is why so many people got hooked... not because of the class so much as because of the whole recipe.
I know My hubby got hooked because of Donnie and his friends.
I got in because of the two WOW guys in my area who were Corps on their interim year.
and I know the people who I witnessed to got involved because of me ...not because of the class...
They took the class because I sold it to them. The same reason I took it.. Someone told me about it and convinced me it was a good idea to take it.
That is what VP counted on, to make it all work... those of us who really were honest.
Because he wasn't honest.
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hiway29
In my opinion, there were few concepts more condescending and patronizing than 'undershepherding'. The way was hardly alone among religious groups in this form of indoctrination. People were not respected for themselves, and all that made them special, just being who they are. People were regarded as lesser beings, not to be fully accepted, trusted, or respected, until they've bought into the program, and are thinking the 'correct' way, and conducting themselves in the correct manner. In the way it was called' growing in the word', but too often it was learning how to master the stifling lifestyle. I'm not saying there isn't a place, or a merit, in reaching out, guiding, instructing, and being there for people, but I'll pass on the way method.
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waysider
From page 2 of W&U syllabus (1974)
Our goal in witnessing and undershepherding. II Tim. 2.2
"The basic reason we witness is to help people into the classes on Power for Abundant Living and help them to walk on it"
(Could it be any clearer?)
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skyrider
TLB....that's quite a broad brush to paint some 3,200 corps in the same "corner" as wierwille. Amazing, that you have that kind of perception and "spiritual awareness"....?????????????
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cheranne
what Leafytwiglet said
I agree
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waysider
From page 13
"The best tool in undershepherding is the PFAL Class. (more than once.)"
In my opinion, "undershepherding" was a bastardization of the mentor/protege process.
In a genuine mentoring situation, the mentor will guide the protege in a direction that will enable him/her to discover their own individuality or "voice", if you prefer. The process should ideally aid the protege in realizing their full potential. Undershepherding, on the other hand, simply exploited and abused the process to indoctrinate clones. I don't blame the individuals who did the undershepherding. I blame the process, itself, which was intentionally corrupted to benefit VPW & Co.
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waysider
Does any of THIS remind you of W&U?
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brainfixed
i think that what hiway and waysider are saying are on the mark with this because there is a whole big difference between helping people find their own potentials and turning people into what you think they should be, which is why i have such a problem with most religions, corporations, pacs, unions, or whatever you can name that have their own agendas and just need bodies to do their labor and bring in the cash.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
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hiway29
It all sounds like W &U, except for the avoiding arguments by welcoming other's opinions, and admitting your own mistakes. There were NO mistakes in way world, and no one's opinions but their own mattered.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
The 4 chapters of the Billy Graham Evangelistic Association class called Christian Life and Witness Course(for training of couselors for Crusades) are: Effective Christian Life; Victorious Christian Life; Christian's Witness; Follow-up and Care of New Christians(Operation Andrew/Friendship Evangelism). This was originally developed by The Navigators(fishing boat crews).
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Twinky
TLB, so that's why the Navigators got their name, huh?
How to Win Friends etc was required WC reading/study, at least when I was in. I just found my copy and it is written through with scripture verses and Biblical principle, to back up each point made in the book. Whether that was something that was a required mode of study, or just something I did of my own Waybrained volition is too far lost in the mists of time to recall. Yep, learn how to sell PFAL.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
In more recent times has been Servant Evangelism by Bill Hybels of Willow Creek Church where Christians are to show compassion such as free car washes, lemonade/ice cream socials(free of cost), sharing water bottles in summer/coffee kiosks for travelers at major traffic/road intersections, mowing grass/raking leaves/snow shoveling driveways without cost. In fact, my church's council now fully fund youth trips and forbids fund raising for such church groups. Now this would have given VPW, LCM, and CG heart attacks. But my 1st post, most of the ingredients were used to entice me with TWI. Unfortunately, a legitimate evangelistic tool was abused to get us involved with this "counterfeit" Christianity.
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
Has anyone taken the Billy Graham course "Christian Lfe and Witness"(originally developed by The Navigators and also used in Campus Crusaders For Christ), or has done the Servant Evangelism from Willow Creek?
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Thomas Loy Bumgarner
I take it that the answer to my question is no. What a difference if TWI, CFFM, and S&TF had done this. My church as done both programs and trying to do this right after Easter Sunday for the next few weeks during remainder of April and May with actual genuine Christian Love. If no one else cares to respond, this will end this thread.
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penguin
My current church did/does things similar to what you describe....at least I know they call it Servant Evangelism. I have kind of shyed away from any type of witnessing thus far.....reminds me too much of twi days. I am low key in that area for now. Most I do is talking to people I work with or see every day in other places.
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