Struggling With Basic Reading, Writing & Grammar

[Oakspear]

Ironic. . . I heard he went to some kind of seminary?? It is ironic because he actually really struggled with basic reading, writing and grammar. Not exactly a biblical scholar.

I thought that this deserved its own thread:

For a "research ministry" it seemed like a lot of "leaders" fell into this category. Not that a spiritual minister has to be a big intellectual, but for a group that emphasized the study and research end of things, I ran into a large number of people who could barely put together a coherent English sentence, let alone parse Greek and Hebrew grammar. Yet often these people were the ones telling us how to study.

[Twinky]

Can't tell you how much it p1$$ed me off, that people whose knowledge of the English language was poor - would set themselves up as knowledgeable in another language (I'm talking native English speakers here; same would apply if a speaker of any other language expressed himself poorly in his native tongue. To grasp all the nuances of another language takes years and yet some have set themselves up as "teachers" in Greek after not much more than PFAL.

If a teacher hasn't the wit or ability to be correct in his own language, his ability in another is inevitably suspect.

Who would of thought it could happen (tongue in cheek)?

[JeffSjo]

It seems to me that a certain amount of prideful attitude can go along with ancomplishments in any field and IMO language skills can be just like that too.

But still, having the skills is a good thing in and of itself and without any attitude on the part of the one who has gained these skills IMO they are nothing less than very good skills to have.

And as I happen to believe that good thinking may have nothing to do with language skills I see no reason to look down on anyone who simply has not learned the skills.

But as a matter of general principle Oakspear and Twinky, I agree with both your statements. It seems the common thread involves deception (either of self or deliberately of others, maybe both) involving perhaps a false self assessment that may even reach the point of delusion for some in TWI; IMO.

(edited to correct a grammatical error. )

( YO, and a freakin spelling boo-boo!)

Edited December 10, 2009 by JeffSjo

[geisha779]

I thought that this deserved its own thread:

For a "research ministry" it seemed like a lot of "leaders" fell into this category. Not that a spiritual minister has to be a big intellectual, but for a group that emphasized the study and research end of things, I ran into a large number of people who could barely put together a coherent English sentence, let alone parse Greek and Hebrew grammar. Yet often these people were the ones telling us how to study.

The reason I know this is because he would have someone help him with reading. . . . writing notes. . . and spelling. . . . left to do this on his own. . . he could barely get by reading. . . . his writing was indecipherable and grammar a passing concept. He was not a bright bulb. He only had a few people he trusted or used to help him. . . .He was after all a MOG.

Maybe he learned. But, he did struggle back in the day.

It really is so ironic. . . . almost like these guys were natural brute beasts or something!

Research? We don't need no stinking research. . . . we know how to plagiarize entire libraries.. . . . grammar included.

[T-Bone]

Besides vp being one of the best con artists to walk the earth, he had a way of "inspiring" others to put a lot of stock in his intellectual abilities [also known as pulling the wool over their eyes]. And in turn those so "inspired" would go forth with a lofty mission to teach others based on this tremendous false-confidence. Pseudo-intellectualism breeds pseudo-intellectualism.

imho - a lot of it goes back to folks assuming PFAL is THE standard for doing study & research. I still wince anytime I recall a debate I had with a pastor and how he made mincemeat out of me using vp's Greek definitions. Uhm – apparently this guy actually studied biblical Greek in seminary. Not exactly one of my best days for moving "da verd".

[geisha779]

I still wince anytime I recall a debate I had with a pastor and how he made mincemeat out of me using vp's Greek definitions. Uhm – apparently this guy actually studied biblical Greek in seminary. Not exactly one of my best days for moving "da verd".

Oh yes! YES! I have had more than one of those horribly humiliating conversations. Still get that residual queasiness when remembering them. Sadly, they were just what I needed.

[leafytwiglet]

Well since I am currently learning Spanish.. Let me just add a little bit of my experience... you really do have to have an excellent grasp of the grammatical rules in your own language, to learn to properly speak a second language.

You may be able to read it with relative cognizance, but there are always, in any language, subtle nuances that take years to learn.. and reading it .. is different than speaking it...

and writing in it, is even more difficult. Yes, you can put little baby sentences together with relative ease, but properly writing the more complicated sentences, is not so easy.. and translation is just that much more difficult

and I would venture to say that, to really understand a language that you did not grow up speaking, you need to be able to do all three before you can really say you understand the language.. Yes, you can get the gist of what is being written but when you try to write in the language yourself, you don't always make sentences that are easily understood.

VP portrayed himself as a greek/hebrew scholar... but Just because a person can say a few words, doesn't make them proficient in a language... I can read Spanish, I can hear a few words, and recognize them, and I can write baby sentences in Spanish. but I am barely literate in the language.

VP and many of those who were in charge had the barest grasp of the language, and touted themselves as knowledgeable.. Interestingly the people in TWI who did have the talent and know how, were quiet and you rarely knew of them.. Unless you were in Corps or at HQ.

edited because I am still l earning where to put commas in sentences Snicker!

Edited December 10, 2009 by leafytwiglet

[waysider]

Oh, we had one like that in Fellow Laborers. (I'll bet WG knows who I mean.) He could hardly read at a third grade level. What did they do? They made him a house leader and then an in-house twig leader. Then they put him on limb staff in charge of one of the state-wide outreach programs. Last I heard, he was some kind of big shot in one of the splinter groups. Seems to be par for the course.

Edited December 11, 2009 by waysider

[brainfixed]

i always wondered how it was that my brother and my sister could be high school dropouts with barely tenth grade educations and be high and all knowing corps leaders. <_< what really bothers me, though, is that the stuff sunk into my brain. why? i still don't get it.

[GeorgeStGeorge]

To be fair, the Apostles weren't all scholars, either. To lead people, you need love more than knowledge. Of course, a lot of Corps had neither...

George

[George Aar]

Besides vp being one of the best con artists to walk the earth, he had a way of "inspiring" others to put a lot of stock in his intellectual abilities [also known as pulling the wool over their eyes]. And in turn those so "inspired" would go forth with a lofty mission to teach others based on this tremendous false-confidence. Pseudo-intellectualism breeds pseudo-intellectualism.

Speaking of which, where's "The Heckler" these days? Just another drive-by?

[Tzaia]

Speaking of which, where's "The Heckler" these days? Just another drive-by?

Apparently so. He discovered that we were people and that sort of brought out a bit of conscience. Conscience, if I'm remembering right, is a weird feeling in TWI-land and to be avoided at all cost...especially if it makes you think about what you're being taught.

[waysider]

To be fair, the Apostles weren't all scholars, either.

George

To be fair, I don't think they promoted themselves as such.

[leafytwiglet]

Apparently so. He discovered that we were people and that sort of brought out a bit of conscience. Conscience, if I'm remembering right, is a weird feeling in TWI-land and to be avoided at all cost...especially if it makes you think about what you're being taught.

I think too he had gone to his/her twig leader before coming on and was told not to come at least it was mentioned in one of the posts. I hope he is still at least peeking in here but yeah toward the end there was a general settling down and starting to listen.. which can be scary when you have been told something is devilish.

I hope he comes back if only to peek in and start reading stuff on the front page. I hope he escapes from TWI some of the stuff he was writing shows there really wasn't any changes in TWI at all.

You can change a word here and there but the intent is the same. TWI SUCKS

[waysider]

I shudder to think that, 38 years ago, that's probably how I sounded, too.

[leafytwiglet]

I shudder to think that, 38 years ago, that's probably how I sounded, too.

ME too... It makes my heart ache sometimes. And makes me ashamed.

[Ham]

i always wondered how it was that my brother and my sister could be high school dropouts with barely tenth grade educations and be high and all knowing corps leaders. <_< what really bothers me, though, is that the stuff sunk into my brain. why? i still don't get it.

Like the last limb coordinator here I had the *pleasure* to have any dealings with..

His claim to fame was that learned in the corps, not to mix his bread and vegetables. Doing so would invite devils or something, and produce 000all kinds of gastro-intestinal disasters..

another *memorable* moment was the claim that drinking water would give one energy. How so? "well.. it's made up of hydrogen and oxygen. we know what happens when you put hydrogen and oxygen together.." I didn't even begin to argue..

I hear they promoted him.. regional coordinator or something..

has the mental capacity barely over that of a brick.. has a "big job" in da ministry.. but the most curious observation.. his wife was absolutely stunningly beautiful, and BRILLIANT.

Maybe opposites attract.. who knows..

[excathedra]

i don't know

if someone was godly, loving, christlike, i would not care about the rest of it

but that didn't seem to be the case most times when it came to the "top"

[Oakspear]

i don't know

if someone was godly, loving, christlike, i would not care about the rest of it

but that didn't seem to be the case most times when it came to the "top"

I agree, in TWI being godly, loving and Christlike were not qualities that were valued by the top dogs; people who could barely read or put together a sentence billed themselves as great biblical researchers and lorded over those who sometimes knew more about the subject than they did.

[JeffSjo]

Lording it over the Lord's inheritance!!!! That is exactly right Oakspear, that's what TWI leadership was concerned about very consistently.

IMO scholars of all types are prone to having some form of elitism amoung themselves, it is a very human weekness.

But TWI leaders were taught that "Lording it over the Lord's inheritance" was what leadership did to run things. How unfortunate for those who ran things like that when they diden't know their training to dominate and abuse people was a bad thing. But even more unfortunate for those who in the long run prove to having done such things to people and know it was bad.

But in TWI's case their promoting themselves as great scholars and researchers was, whether done ignorantly by some or not, pretty much fraud that had the ability to help control and dominate the average Wayfer.