I call it bonding by drama. A test of true friendship is to remove the drama-producing situation and see if the friendship holds up after that. Many times it doesn't. However, life does (usually) go on.
There are different degrees of friendship... there is the acquaintance that you just met.. the person you know slightly but the people in my life that are true friends are the ones who I have known for a long time... who Know my good and bad points and whose good and bad points I know and in spit of all this we are still close .. enjoy each others company and would help each other out in a pinch... This kind of friendship takes years to build.
Fellowship is different it is being with someone and doing the same activity together.. not as close of a relationship, you may not know them as well as your best friend.. although I have to say I have made some great friends at the Gym and we mostly spend the time sharing tips about diet and different exercise plans we have run onto, what is happening in our life.. I think of fellowship more as a collaboration between people with a like interest..
and fellowship in regards to the Bible or faith in Christ is just that much sweeter.
As to how people are using it on here hmmm I would have to really dig deeper but for me the part of TWI i miss is being with my friends studying the bible or just plain horsing around having fun!
I get that now from my current friends .. I do miss the bible aspect of it.. but I have not found a group I am comfortable with where I live. I did have one where we lived before.
I suspect eventually I will find one here too.
Edited to add Excellent Topic by the way... I need to think more about this...
As to how people are using it on here hmmm I would have to really dig deeper but for me the part of TWI i miss is being with my friends studying the bible or just plain horsing around having fun!
I get that now from my current friends .. I do miss the bible aspect of it.. but I have not found a group I am comfortable with where I live. I did have one where we lived before.
I suspect eventually I will find one here too.
when i was still addicted to the bible part of "fellowship" i had someone say to me "so what's stopping you from making up a little group like that for yourself?" well of course my immediate thought in my head was "because i'm not a twig leader yet". go figure huh? i didn't say that out loud luckily but instead said "you know, you're right" and then put up little flyers around town and found out that there were a whole lot of people that wanted to do the same thing without all the "churchy" stuff attached, but i found myself freaking out when people wanted to "privately interpret" the bible and interrupted a "teaching" i'd worked hours on and didn't want the "manifestations". that's when i knew i was still in the way international in my head and had to do something with my own head before i could ever consider having real relationships with other people.
when i was still addicted to the bible part of "fellowship" i had someone say to me "so what's stopping you from making up a little group like that for yourself?" well of course my immediate thought in my head was "because i'm not a twig leader yet". go figure huh? i didn't say that out loud luckily but instead said "you know, you're right" and then put up little flyers around town and found out that there were a whole lot of people that wanted to do the same thing without all the "churchy" stuff attached, but i found myself freaking out when people wanted to "privately interpret" the bible and interrupted a "teaching" i'd worked hours on and didn't want the "manifestations". that's when i knew i was still in the way international in my head and had to do something with my own head before i could ever consider having real relationships with other people.
Brainy... this is my curretn issue...
LOL you said what I was trying to put into words.. but I really do need to head to work now.. catch you later on line and Hugs.
i've had to learn a new way to define "friendship" and "fellowship" that is healthy, helpful, and builds trust and caring and longevity into a relationship, instead of the false "friendship" and "fellowship" offered at the way international that was always "upon condition" and was proudly used to divide husband against wife, mother against child, brother against sister, and all that pure evil that the way international took only one verse out of context to "justify" their sin. "friendship" for me must now be built and it is no longer a given just because of common interests or even common goals. "fellowship" i now take far more seriously than sitting around being told how to think and yelled at if i don't think it quite right. i also have to be able to trust the person farther than our belief systems before i will consider them part of a "friendship" or even a "fellowship" with me. it surprises me now that i ever considered that stuff as true "friendship" or "fellowship".
There was no drama when I left. I got too busy with family and business to keep up my involvement. I simply drifted away like a ship in the harbor. What bothers me most is that, after all those years (18) of people saying, "We sure love you.", no one even bothered to call or stop by to see how I was doing. If that's "fellowship", I don't need it.
LOL you said what I was trying to put into words.. but I really do need to head to work now.. catch you later on line and Hugs.
the one thing that i had to fix in my head the most was the idea of absolutism about the bible, the idea that it was magnified above everything, the idea that it was what was the greatest secret in the world today, and that took a long time and a whole lot of hard work that equaled or even sometimes was harder than the work i have to do concerning the abuse in my life! in the way international the bible became god. it really is that simple and because it is that simple it's also that difficult to release when it comes to looking at it as possibly not god, not the end all be all thing that the way international makes it out to be. and add to that the only redeeming thing about being involved with the way international was that somehow it was all about "serving" god by "doing the word" and then realizing that what the way international put out there as "the word" was really a false idol cast in gold with dead bodies laying around it and all, well it leaves an emptiness in the mind and heart of cosmic proportions that isn't really something to take on without professional help in my opinion because something has to take up that emptiness.
what helped me a whole lot was to talk with some rabbis and have them explain to me how they see the bible, and this helped because i wasn't going to listen to some "johnny jumpup" trinitarian don't ya know?! and also rabbis had to study hebrew, right? so they'd at least come closer to "the truth" than some "out in left field" trinitarian trying to make jesus into god. these are the things i told my therapist and talking to rabbis was the the possible help that my therapist offered. well anyway what i learned was that debating the hidden meanings of the writings is a time-honored thing to do because even though the writings are sacred, they are not god and should not be seen as god or taken as if god himself wrote them because everybody knows that men wrote them and men can get god's message pretty messed up and they pointed me right to abraham as a prime example of how men can get god's message messed up over and over again. i didn't take it so well, though, and even was throwing up over the idea that the one group of people i had figured probably had a better clue than anybody about god was now telling me that the writings may be sacred but they weren't without error because even if the men were holy and moved by the spirit, they were still men and they still had to work as men with all their lack of understanding and imperfections and poor judgement, whew! that was too much! you know? and the rabbis didn't stop there but went on to say that if they understood me correctly about that "holy men of god spoke as they were moved by the holy spirit" interpretation by the way international, then i was talking about "automatic writing" and that they considered such things as unholy and wondered if i weren't involved in the occult and if the way international was using the bible to practice the occult and not christianity! that made me think!
very astute post, brainfixed. +100!!!
thanks.
There was no drama when I left. I got too busy with family and business to keep up my involvement. I simply drifted away like a ship in the harbor. What bothers me most is that, after all those years (18) of people saying, "We sure love you.", no one even bothered to call or stop by to see how I was doing. If that's "fellowship", I don't need it.
for me it was the exact opposite because for me the people were the harm and the message was the redemption, and the one message i got loud and clear was the "i have no friends when it comes to the word" and it gave me permission to detach from the abusers and cling to the doctrine for my salvation. imagine what it was like when i realized the doctrine drew me just as far away from salvation as the people did.
I think all the people thought I would be devestated or broken up over not having "fellowship" with them any more. I figured if I left and people "shunned" me, then they never were REALLY my friends anyway. Who needs fair weather friends? They're as worthless as people who hang around you for handouts, or free babysitting, or whatever other selfish reason for being takers people use.
So I figured I needed some new friends. And when I found some I discovered that the "fellowship" there wasn't based upon obligation, politics, position, or any other false reason. It was real. And it's a whole lot better way to live.
So no I don't miss the so-called "fellowship", because it was a lie. People can "love-bomb" anyone for selfish personal or group reasons. That's the lying lips and flattering tongue that Proverbs talks about.
I don't know that there was every a time when the "fellowship" was ever as real as a genuine friendship or for that matter a good family relationship. Sure there were times when I had good times with some of those people, and there were people who would give me the shirt off their backs, there were people who were unconditional givers, and there were people who were just plain loving. But never, ever, did I see any of that extend past the TWI circle. Even without taking into account when my ties to TWI the organization were severed, there were several times when people in my area seemed to be good friends, but made no effort to maintain contact once they had moved on to their next Corps assignment, went WOW or just plain moved to another city. The friendships, if they can be called that, were situational and conditional.
An old friend of mine, our friendship pre-dating TWI recently made contact with me. She is involved in TWI; she maintains that she and her husband don't believe everything that TWI teaches and "think for themselves", but really love the people in their fellowship. I wonder if that love would survive if my old friend and her husband told their twig coordinator that they would start attending a local church, but still wanted to see everyone in the twig: go out for coffee, go out to dinner together, i.e. maintain their relationship, their "fellowship". I think you can guess what the answer would be.
Leaving twi I learned who my friends were. And I know who my friends still are. Four of us still have a close relationship. twi is never in our conversations or life. We have a genuine love for each other.
Recently, my wow sister found me via my son's facebook. I had thought about her so much over the years. Seems she had been looking for me. We have yet to talk about twi. Seems our love and admiration for each other was beyond twi. We broke all the wow rules and lived life together. After she and our wow brother married they moved to where my husband and I lived. By that time we were sick and fed up with twi religion.
When we first spoke to each other after 20 years, you would have never known it had been that long. We just picked up where we left off. I am grateful we found and have each other. I have a piece of my heart back.
I have been shunned by everyone I knew in TWI except one person. We were told that if we want to come back we know where they are. That alone cemented my resolve to NEVER go back. It also opened my eyes to the shallowness of the "fellowship" I thought I had with TWI's faithful. As long as you are going to fellowship you are called "brother". Stop supporting TWI and you are instantly disowned and considered evil and outside the walls of the camp and lot's of other weird stuff. The fellowship in TWI is VERY superficial.
Recently, my wow sister found me via my son's facebook.
Huh. Recently one of my WOW sisters and I made connection via Facebook also(my other WOW sister found each other through GreaseSpot cafe!)She is out of TWI as well, and has been for quite a while. My conversations with her and her husband (who had been my best man at my first wedding) did not go as well as yours. Although no longer with TWI, they, especially the husband, were very judgmental about my current religious beliefs and very arrogant about their own.
I think I may just be in a foul mood. . . . or feeling completely antagonistic . . . . but, a friend or two from the way daze doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.
That being said. . . .
I do think brainfixed points out a really valid distinction between the perception some may have of their time in a cult to the actual events and overall reality of what we were a part of. . . . basing "fellowship" and "friendship" around an idea that never really was.
The "Word". . . Moving the "Word" . . . and serving some "Greater good".
Breaking it down. . .the "Word" taught was a lie. . . . "Moving the word" meant lining TWI's coffers by selling a class and indoctrinating new recruits . . . . and "Serving" meant within the extremely limiting parameter of "The Word" . . . you were a workhorse to the "Household".
I know some rebels did step beyond the parameters and actually help others with real problems. Sadly. . . . that was the rare exception and they usually had to break the rules to do so.
For me, and in my opinion, what probably IS a good example of some sort of delusional collective memory and yearning for bygone "fellowship" and "friendship" sometimes articulated here . . . . is that Way Corps Only site.
From what I can glean, because hubby refuses to join, is that it is filled with the collective nostalgia and revisionist history of days gone by, laced with a fair amount elitism added for the complete nostalgic experience.
However, that is only a guess from threads here, Penwork's article, and others posts.
Offshoots are another example. People perpetuating the fantasy of Moving the Word, Fellowship, and Service. Learn the gospel and go on missions if that is what you want to do! Or, do relief work. . . if you want to make a difference. . . . feed a hungry belly.
So, is there anyone here I missed? Or have I offended just about everyone?
What I'm thinking about is the emotional aspect of miising something or someone.
Whether or not the person is missing something that may not have really been good for them in the first place doesn't change the fact that they are probably hurting.
Sometimes people may even be missing something that they know full well to be truly toxic to them.
And no matter the issue, it seems a little bit of empathy or understanding will help when it comes to determining what they need from us or what we may truly need to do in order to help them deal with the situation.
I really don't think they would let me unless the rules have changed. Hubby never graduated. Even if I could, my personality being what it is. . . . I would offend the masses in record time.
It was just an observation. . . . I read those threads about it in the Soap Opera forum recently. . . . and I thought we got into some spats here. . . . yeah right. . . child's play! :)
And Excie there are names on there of people I knew in TWI.. . . who I would have a very hard time even considering forgiving. . . . they may be perfectly lovely now, but I just don't care.
Too many really ugly memories.
Anyway. . . . I could be totally wrong about the site . . . it was just a guess.
Maybe, it was Veterans Day I watched this program. Vets talking about the closet bond they have ever had in their life is the one with each other in the foxholes. The stories related were of endless hunger at times, cold, wet, much waiting, fear, short supplies of ammo, and not really sure if they believed what they were doing would make a difference. But those men in the foxholes held together despite the circumstances.
That being said, I can understand why some ex way corps folks would be bonded together thus the way corps only site. I can understand why some ex wow folks would be bonded together. Genuine people living in the trenches of life together forms a bond.
these are all good things to think about like with the idea about the veterans and being in foxholes because there was certainly trauma bonding in the way international, and i don't doubt that some true friendships were made, either, and i know that if i had any idea that i was interacting with some of the people that made my life a living hell back in the way international days i wouldn't care what they were today i would have a hard time getting along with them today, so yah these are good things to think about. it is also good to recognize and comprehend that whether i like it or not the way international was a deeply engrained part of my life and the people of the way international made up my world when i was involved and there is a grieving process that needs to be done whether it's over the lost relationships, the lost time, the lost innocence, the lost sense of spirituality, the lost faith or whatever, there's still a grieving process and that process deserves compassion and tenderness and understanding from others that have gone through it. at least i think so.
I don't understand the whole Band of Brothers analogy? I suppose if people were actually united by some sort of common trauma that would make sense, similar to a support group or survivor group. That isn't really the common adhesive when people unite around a deluded nostalgia is it? I mean to say. . . . when people are missing what they call the old "fellowship" or "friendship".
To unite around the foxhole they must first acknowledge is was a traumatic experience, not the idea that TWI was some great movement of "God and His Word" akin to "The Great Awakening".
Really, I am not trying to be obtuse, or even super antagonistic, but doesn't that analogy run contrary to the initial post in this thread?
I am not saying that people can't have genuine love and friendship with someone from their past TWI experience. I believe they can. . .we once discussed this to death. But, even then I agreed that it was the exception, not the rule. That there were rare genuine friends among the majority of compelled and instant bonding.
Take WOW vet's. I can't imagine that to be a bonding experience only understood by those who lived it?? I know some believe it to be a great learning experience. Some think they "grew" closer to God and forged some kind of eternal relationships with those they lived with. . . .fine. . . but, there are others who think it was a whole big waste of youth and effort. A manufactured experience meant sell a class and wrangle people into a cult. Others still, who cringe and think it was more than not offensive to the glory of God.
So, unless we all meet and agree it was one or the other. . . . where is the commonality?
Was it that we were for the most part half-starved and lived sub-standard existences? So, we discuss mac-cheese and how many cockroaches our home had. . . . because unless we unite over the idea it was some great and Godly experience. . . . or it was total crap.. . . . . there is in reality. . . . nothing there.
For the record. . . I fall into the cringing and it was total crap camp.
Guess I really don't think the analogy applies when people are bonded around the idea of fellowship and friendship. . . . there is a missing element. The reality.
I do have a theory as to why people start missing this stuff. . . . people of a certain age usually become nostalgic for their youth. It is not uncommon.
And, you can either accept that it was wasted and in many ways stolen youth. . . deal with the reality and find some way to become wiser. Maybe even advocate for those ensnared in a cult. . . speak up about TWI so others don't become caught up. . . . . or. . . . .
You can continue to delude yourself into thinking it was a special time, an important event, and continue to believe the lies you were spoon fed.
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Tzaia
I call it bonding by drama. A test of true friendship is to remove the drama-producing situation and see if the friendship holds up after that. Many times it doesn't. However, life does (usually) go on.
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brainfixed
that's a very good way to put it because it's like that a whole lot and it's very much like the "trauma bond" too.
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leafytwiglet
There are different degrees of friendship... there is the acquaintance that you just met.. the person you know slightly but the people in my life that are true friends are the ones who I have known for a long time... who Know my good and bad points and whose good and bad points I know and in spit of all this we are still close .. enjoy each others company and would help each other out in a pinch... This kind of friendship takes years to build.
Fellowship is different it is being with someone and doing the same activity together.. not as close of a relationship, you may not know them as well as your best friend.. although I have to say I have made some great friends at the Gym and we mostly spend the time sharing tips about diet and different exercise plans we have run onto, what is happening in our life.. I think of fellowship more as a collaboration between people with a like interest..
and fellowship in regards to the Bible or faith in Christ is just that much sweeter.
As to how people are using it on here hmmm I would have to really dig deeper but for me the part of TWI i miss is being with my friends studying the bible or just plain horsing around having fun!
I get that now from my current friends .. I do miss the bible aspect of it.. but I have not found a group I am comfortable with where I live. I did have one where we lived before.
I suspect eventually I will find one here too.
Edited to add Excellent Topic by the way... I need to think more about this...
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brainfixed
when i was still addicted to the bible part of "fellowship" i had someone say to me "so what's stopping you from making up a little group like that for yourself?" well of course my immediate thought in my head was "because i'm not a twig leader yet". go figure huh? i didn't say that out loud luckily but instead said "you know, you're right" and then put up little flyers around town and found out that there were a whole lot of people that wanted to do the same thing without all the "churchy" stuff attached, but i found myself freaking out when people wanted to "privately interpret" the bible and interrupted a "teaching" i'd worked hours on and didn't want the "manifestations". that's when i knew i was still in the way international in my head and had to do something with my own head before i could ever consider having real relationships with other people.
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leafytwiglet
Brainy... this is my curretn issue...
LOL you said what I was trying to put into words.. but I really do need to head to work now.. catch you later on line and Hugs.
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chockfull
very astute post, brainfixed. +100!!!
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waysider
There was no drama when I left. I got too busy with family and business to keep up my involvement. I simply drifted away like a ship in the harbor. What bothers me most is that, after all those years (18) of people saying, "We sure love you.", no one even bothered to call or stop by to see how I was doing. If that's "fellowship", I don't need it.
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brainfixed
the one thing that i had to fix in my head the most was the idea of absolutism about the bible, the idea that it was magnified above everything, the idea that it was what was the greatest secret in the world today, and that took a long time and a whole lot of hard work that equaled or even sometimes was harder than the work i have to do concerning the abuse in my life! in the way international the bible became god. it really is that simple and because it is that simple it's also that difficult to release when it comes to looking at it as possibly not god, not the end all be all thing that the way international makes it out to be. and add to that the only redeeming thing about being involved with the way international was that somehow it was all about "serving" god by "doing the word" and then realizing that what the way international put out there as "the word" was really a false idol cast in gold with dead bodies laying around it and all, well it leaves an emptiness in the mind and heart of cosmic proportions that isn't really something to take on without professional help in my opinion because something has to take up that emptiness.
what helped me a whole lot was to talk with some rabbis and have them explain to me how they see the bible, and this helped because i wasn't going to listen to some "johnny jumpup" trinitarian don't ya know?! and also rabbis had to study hebrew, right? so they'd at least come closer to "the truth" than some "out in left field" trinitarian trying to make jesus into god. these are the things i told my therapist and talking to rabbis was the the possible help that my therapist offered. well anyway what i learned was that debating the hidden meanings of the writings is a time-honored thing to do because even though the writings are sacred, they are not god and should not be seen as god or taken as if god himself wrote them because everybody knows that men wrote them and men can get god's message pretty messed up and they pointed me right to abraham as a prime example of how men can get god's message messed up over and over again. i didn't take it so well, though, and even was throwing up over the idea that the one group of people i had figured probably had a better clue than anybody about god was now telling me that the writings may be sacred but they weren't without error because even if the men were holy and moved by the spirit, they were still men and they still had to work as men with all their lack of understanding and imperfections and poor judgement, whew! that was too much! you know? and the rabbis didn't stop there but went on to say that if they understood me correctly about that "holy men of god spoke as they were moved by the holy spirit" interpretation by the way international, then i was talking about "automatic writing" and that they considered such things as unholy and wondered if i weren't involved in the occult and if the way international was using the bible to practice the occult and not christianity! that made me think!
thanks.
yah that's it in a nutshell.
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cheranne
For a long time I missed some people and (susans girls in okc)after all this was said and done I am still in contact with 1.
I missed the people but not the message.
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brainfixed
for me it was the exact opposite because for me the people were the harm and the message was the redemption, and the one message i got loud and clear was the "i have no friends when it comes to the word" and it gave me permission to detach from the abusers and cling to the doctrine for my salvation. imagine what it was like when i realized the doctrine drew me just as far away from salvation as the people did.
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cheranne
It was a little differant in the 70's. People were not as weird as they are now!
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chockfull
I think all the people thought I would be devestated or broken up over not having "fellowship" with them any more. I figured if I left and people "shunned" me, then they never were REALLY my friends anyway. Who needs fair weather friends? They're as worthless as people who hang around you for handouts, or free babysitting, or whatever other selfish reason for being takers people use.
So I figured I needed some new friends. And when I found some I discovered that the "fellowship" there wasn't based upon obligation, politics, position, or any other false reason. It was real. And it's a whole lot better way to live.
So no I don't miss the so-called "fellowship", because it was a lie. People can "love-bomb" anyone for selfish personal or group reasons. That's the lying lips and flattering tongue that Proverbs talks about.
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Oakspear
I don't know that there was every a time when the "fellowship" was ever as real as a genuine friendship or for that matter a good family relationship. Sure there were times when I had good times with some of those people, and there were people who would give me the shirt off their backs, there were people who were unconditional givers, and there were people who were just plain loving. But never, ever, did I see any of that extend past the TWI circle. Even without taking into account when my ties to TWI the organization were severed, there were several times when people in my area seemed to be good friends, but made no effort to maintain contact once they had moved on to their next Corps assignment, went WOW or just plain moved to another city. The friendships, if they can be called that, were situational and conditional.
An old friend of mine, our friendship pre-dating TWI recently made contact with me. She is involved in TWI; she maintains that she and her husband don't believe everything that TWI teaches and "think for themselves", but really love the people in their fellowship. I wonder if that love would survive if my old friend and her husband told their twig coordinator that they would start attending a local church, but still wanted to see everyone in the twig: go out for coffee, go out to dinner together, i.e. maintain their relationship, their "fellowship". I think you can guess what the answer would be.
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kimberly
Leaving twi I learned who my friends were. And I know who my friends still are. Four of us still have a close relationship. twi is never in our conversations or life. We have a genuine love for each other.
Recently, my wow sister found me via my son's facebook. I had thought about her so much over the years. Seems she had been looking for me. We have yet to talk about twi. Seems our love and admiration for each other was beyond twi. We broke all the wow rules and lived life together. After she and our wow brother married they moved to where my husband and I lived. By that time we were sick and fed up with twi religion.
When we first spoke to each other after 20 years, you would have never known it had been that long. We just picked up where we left off. I am grateful we found and have each other. I have a piece of my heart back.
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OldSkool
I have been shunned by everyone I knew in TWI except one person. We were told that if we want to come back we know where they are. That alone cemented my resolve to NEVER go back. It also opened my eyes to the shallowness of the "fellowship" I thought I had with TWI's faithful. As long as you are going to fellowship you are called "brother". Stop supporting TWI and you are instantly disowned and considered evil and outside the walls of the camp and lot's of other weird stuff. The fellowship in TWI is VERY superficial.
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Oakspear
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geisha779
I think I may just be in a foul mood. . . . or feeling completely antagonistic . . . . but, a friend or two from the way daze doesn't seem out of the realm of possibility.
That being said. . . .
I do think brainfixed points out a really valid distinction between the perception some may have of their time in a cult to the actual events and overall reality of what we were a part of. . . . basing "fellowship" and "friendship" around an idea that never really was.
The "Word". . . Moving the "Word" . . . and serving some "Greater good".
Breaking it down. . .the "Word" taught was a lie. . . . "Moving the word" meant lining TWI's coffers by selling a class and indoctrinating new recruits . . . . and "Serving" meant within the extremely limiting parameter of "The Word" . . . you were a workhorse to the "Household".
I know some rebels did step beyond the parameters and actually help others with real problems. Sadly. . . . that was the rare exception and they usually had to break the rules to do so.
For me, and in my opinion, what probably IS a good example of some sort of delusional collective memory and yearning for bygone "fellowship" and "friendship" sometimes articulated here . . . . is that Way Corps Only site.
From what I can glean, because hubby refuses to join, is that it is filled with the collective nostalgia and revisionist history of days gone by, laced with a fair amount elitism added for the complete nostalgic experience.
However, that is only a guess from threads here, Penwork's article, and others posts.
Offshoots are another example. People perpetuating the fantasy of Moving the Word, Fellowship, and Service. Learn the gospel and go on missions if that is what you want to do! Or, do relief work. . . if you want to make a difference. . . . feed a hungry belly.
So, is there anyone here I missed? Or have I offended just about everyone?
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JeffSjo
I'm not offended.
What I'm thinking about is the emotional aspect of miising something or someone.
Whether or not the person is missing something that may not have really been good for them in the first place doesn't change the fact that they are probably hurting.
Sometimes people may even be missing something that they know full well to be truly toxic to them.
And no matter the issue, it seems a little bit of empathy or understanding will help when it comes to determining what they need from us or what we may truly need to do in order to help them deal with the situation.
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excathedra
so why don't you join ?
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geisha779
I really don't think they would let me unless the rules have changed. Hubby never graduated. Even if I could, my personality being what it is. . . . I would offend the masses in record time.
It was just an observation. . . . I read those threads about it in the Soap Opera forum recently. . . . and I thought we got into some spats here. . . . yeah right. . . child's play! :)
And Excie there are names on there of people I knew in TWI.. . . who I would have a very hard time even considering forgiving. . . . they may be perfectly lovely now, but I just don't care.
Too many really ugly memories.
Anyway. . . . I could be totally wrong about the site . . . it was just a guess.
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Oakspear
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kimberly
Maybe, it was Veterans Day I watched this program. Vets talking about the closet bond they have ever had in their life is the one with each other in the foxholes. The stories related were of endless hunger at times, cold, wet, much waiting, fear, short supplies of ammo, and not really sure if they believed what they were doing would make a difference. But those men in the foxholes held together despite the circumstances.
That being said, I can understand why some ex way corps folks would be bonded together thus the way corps only site. I can understand why some ex wow folks would be bonded together. Genuine people living in the trenches of life together forms a bond.
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brainfixed
these are all good things to think about like with the idea about the veterans and being in foxholes because there was certainly trauma bonding in the way international, and i don't doubt that some true friendships were made, either, and i know that if i had any idea that i was interacting with some of the people that made my life a living hell back in the way international days i wouldn't care what they were today i would have a hard time getting along with them today, so yah these are good things to think about. it is also good to recognize and comprehend that whether i like it or not the way international was a deeply engrained part of my life and the people of the way international made up my world when i was involved and there is a grieving process that needs to be done whether it's over the lost relationships, the lost time, the lost innocence, the lost sense of spirituality, the lost faith or whatever, there's still a grieving process and that process deserves compassion and tenderness and understanding from others that have gone through it. at least i think so.
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geisha779
I don't understand the whole Band of Brothers analogy? I suppose if people were actually united by some sort of common trauma that would make sense, similar to a support group or survivor group. That isn't really the common adhesive when people unite around a deluded nostalgia is it? I mean to say. . . . when people are missing what they call the old "fellowship" or "friendship".
To unite around the foxhole they must first acknowledge is was a traumatic experience, not the idea that TWI was some great movement of "God and His Word" akin to "The Great Awakening".
Really, I am not trying to be obtuse, or even super antagonistic, but doesn't that analogy run contrary to the initial post in this thread?
I am not saying that people can't have genuine love and friendship with someone from their past TWI experience. I believe they can. . .we once discussed this to death. But, even then I agreed that it was the exception, not the rule. That there were rare genuine friends among the majority of compelled and instant bonding.
Take WOW vet's. I can't imagine that to be a bonding experience only understood by those who lived it?? I know some believe it to be a great learning experience. Some think they "grew" closer to God and forged some kind of eternal relationships with those they lived with. . . .fine. . . but, there are others who think it was a whole big waste of youth and effort. A manufactured experience meant sell a class and wrangle people into a cult. Others still, who cringe and think it was more than not offensive to the glory of God.
So, unless we all meet and agree it was one or the other. . . . where is the commonality?
Was it that we were for the most part half-starved and lived sub-standard existences? So, we discuss mac-cheese and how many cockroaches our home had. . . . because unless we unite over the idea it was some great and Godly experience. . . . or it was total crap.. . . . . there is in reality. . . . nothing there.
For the record. . . I fall into the cringing and it was total crap camp.
Guess I really don't think the analogy applies when people are bonded around the idea of fellowship and friendship. . . . there is a missing element. The reality.
I do have a theory as to why people start missing this stuff. . . . people of a certain age usually become nostalgic for their youth. It is not uncommon.
And, you can either accept that it was wasted and in many ways stolen youth. . . deal with the reality and find some way to become wiser. Maybe even advocate for those ensnared in a cult. . . speak up about TWI so others don't become caught up. . . . . or. . . . .
You can continue to delude yourself into thinking it was a special time, an important event, and continue to believe the lies you were spoon fed.
Good thing I never grew an opinion. :)
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