"As a man purposes in his heart so let him give, not grudgingly, or of necessity, or for God loves a cheerful giver."
Yep, and it doesn't say money either.
New Living Translation:
You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don't give reluctantly or in response to pressure. "For God loves a person who gives cheerfully."
New American Standard Translation:
Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
International Standard Version:
Each of you must give what you have decided in your heart, not with regret or under compulsion, since God loves a cheerful giver
And, it also doesn't say *to whom*. Maybe I want to give 50% of my talents, time, shoes to my neighbor who has the need---and it is totally up to me, not some preacher directing my path or choice...and certainly not under pressure or compulsion! It's more TWI expounding of truth, because remember---"STF Truth Matters" :wacko:
Quote from Oldschool's transcription of the podcast:
"...the Word of God says that Christians should give their very lives as living sacrifices and that certainly includes giving; giving time, material goods, and money. Although some people's situation may be such that they cannot give ten percent to the work of God, many people can and should give more than that. This teaching not only covers giving and tithing, but also provides biblical information about what to give and where Christians should give."
The above is a rehash of TWI dogma, as most of us can see.
I'm reminded of this quote from The True Believer - Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements by Eric Hoffer, " It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible." p79.
I will take this further to say that people are probably giving - and giving a lot - just not to STF-I. It's not just that the people at STF-I lack character, self-awareness, meekness, and humility, it's that they are missing the boat in how Jesus wanted money, time, and effort utilized.
I'm done giving money to an organization where most of it is used for administrative purposes. Since it isn't doing anything that remotely resembles "church" or "missions" where does this money go that benefits anyone outside the "home" office?
I'm done giving money to an organization where most of it is used for administrative purposes. Since it isn't doing anything that remotely resembles "church" or "missions" where does this money go that benefits anyone outside the "home" office?
Let em get day jobs and work the podcasts and such on nights and weekends. I'm not spending a dime to support their business.
In this teaching, John Schoenheit opens the Word of God and shows that, while each person should give generously, Christians are not commanded to tithe. The Word of God shows that the tithe was instituted by God as a part of the Mosaic Law, so that the Levites and Priests, who could not own land, would be provided for.
What a bunch of BS if you ask me.. Some people are not able to GIVE, in fact they are in NEED. It's like most have said, let each give as he has purposed and is able.. And since they have purposed, they don't need some stuck up egomaniac to try and convince them to give more. This is what erks me about Christianity as a whole. Nothing but panhandlers asking for handouts every other Sunday.
I have no problem to give and help those in need. And right now, STFI folks need to go get jobs, and I'm helping them by not supporting their panhandling!
Not only are their "ministers" not anything close to the Levites and Priests who were forbidden to own land (although many try and associate themselves with the Priests). The tithe was not JUST for them. The tithe just means a tenth. And while Israel gave a tenth to the Levites. They also gave a tenth to the homeless/fatherless. And they gave a tithe to themselves to enjoy!! But you won't hear them talking about that, will you.. And eventually they gave a tenth/tithe to the government. Yes, those ugly taxes because Israel wanted a king but God said if you do, the king will require a tithe/tenth of everything from you.
The tenth/tithes of the OT was just God's way of having each person take care of those who had needs around them. Not to take care of some pompous egotistical ar$e who thinks he knows better than anyone else and even is making their own translation to prove their ego. And what God didn't want was some government taking the tithes and having the "government" take care of those in need thus releaving the people of their duty! Instead the people sit by why those in need around them get missed, which was the purpose of the tithe you freakin STFI numbnuts.. Each person was responsible for taking care of the needs of their brothers and sisters, instead of waiting on some corrupt government assistance or corrupt ministry to sit on their egotistical ar$e.
Deuteronomy 14:22-27 “Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to love the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat the tithe there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.
Deuteronomy 14:28 – 29 “At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tenth(tithe) of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.”
Oh, anything to get a bit of money, and to increase the bondage upon the people providing the money.
Some years ago, I got in conversation with a young Muslim woman - we worked at the same office. She told me that under Muslim law, everyone is required to give away 1/10 of his or her income.
-To whom? I asked.
-To anyone who needs it, she said.
-Not to the mosque or Muslim leaders or charities?
-No, wherever you want.
-Can you give it to some local charity or to your friend or to your family?
-Wherever you want, it can be anywhere. You're just supposed to give away that much.
I was still rather Waybrained at the time, but it struck me how much freer she seemed to be that Way people.
This from a lass in her mid 20s, with lowish-cut top and ordinary pants/trousers, bare-headed and made-up. Went to the mosque but enjoyed life too.
Well, I did it.. I tortured myself.. I listened to the podcast..
I felt if I was going to actually diss it, I better know what they said.. So anyone else who thought of doing the same, don't torture yourself!
And just a quick run down of was and wasn't said in the pod cast, and not just the intro..
First he(John Schoenheit) goes into why we give..
"We give because this world is going away, so we give for the future."
"If you give you'll be blessed, maybe not now, but in the future."
"We can only get what we send ahead to the future"
"IT'S ALL ABOUT THE FUTURE"
There you go guys.. Forget about giving because there's a need, or you have a desire, it's all about YOUR future !ENDQUOTE!
As I stated before, there were tithes for the homeless/poor/fatherless, tithes for you, and tithes for the government. But instead of going over those, he stuck with saying it's not worth the time and that
"Generally, the tithe was to go to the levites, there were other giving (He made it sound like not a tithe but just giving), but the tithe was for the levites."
In other words, the mention of a tithe in the law was in regards for Levites and that other giving was just giving, not tithes. And in fact, he says, "The tithe ended because there was no longer a temple to take care of or a levitical system..". Emphasizing how the tithe was just for the levites.. No mention of tithes for others.. Just giving.. It sounded as if he had an agenda in how he worded that.
And how about this quote:
Could I just give $1? NO NO NO.. If Abraham and Jacob could give 10%, COME ON, that's a good number, and you and I both know how it works..
There you go. As you have purposed in your heart. I mean.. Abraham and Jacob purposed.. 10%.. No you can't just give $1. Yup, That's the STFI answer..
Ok.. Last quotes:
You have a responsiblity to give.
You owe god to obey him to give and therefore owe to support your church
How much? Be willing to stretch yourself.
Give to move the word of God and set people free
While John Schoenheit mentions giving to the homeless, those in need. He listed 4.. The ministry was listed as first, family last..
Break it down this way: by ministry he means SALARIES! The BOD needs to get paid for what they are doing. A LOT of folks are withholding money because of the current debacle in how they have handled JAL and EL. Instead of righting the wrong they are blaming people for not giving. Typical.
OK - - - I've read though this thread, and I guess I'll toss in my 2 cents worth.
First and foremost, I have no problem buying a book, musical CD, etc., (be it from Amazon/ individual author/ CES/ or whomever. I figure if an author "did the work", spent money to get it published and spent money to promote it, it's worth it (should I choose to buy it). Now, having said that let me say this. CES has gone above and beyond and transcended the "pay as you go" policy for the work "produced". Once was a time (1987 - thereabouts) when the folks running the Org (CES) traveled around the country because the folks in the areas around the US wanted to hear them talk about twi, what was going on behind the scenes that were unknown to most of us who hadn't a clue as to what was going on, etc.
Seems like that soon escalated into a "new teaching ministry" which was producing books/ tapes/ websites/ and STAFF to make sure the supply met the demand generated by those going out to "spread the Word". CES was slowly turning into another twi with all the twists/ turns/ and idiosyncrasies one saw from the parent ORG twi. Suddenly (in my IMO), it wasn't about the Word anymore, it was all about CES. Took me a few years to realize this, but I finally realized this, and I'm thankful it didn't take me longer than it did although I wish I'd have seen it sooner.
As I mentioned to godmadegirl1983 in The GOT TRUTH "bumper sticker fiasco" thread, I've hung around and listened to the CES folks from the beginning up until around 2007 (or so), and I've got miles and miles of teaching tapes from them. One thing I noticed a coupla years ago was that the tapes were starting to sound (even) more and more like re-cycled twi teachings from the class. I should have seen it sooner, but when a tape from them (with John S. teaching) about how "church" can mean a buncha folks (rather than a denomination) caused me to sit up and say WHAT!!??? WHERE THE HELL-HAVE-I-HEARD-THIS-BEFORE????
Ces used to do some righteous teachings, that actually made you think. Their websites (Truth or Tradition and Biblical Unitarian) get a lot of hits from folks genuinely curious. But - - - (imo) anything "new" is a thing of the past. I'm reminded of the dog returning to it's own vomit, a pig wallowing in the mire, that sort of thing.
I've seen the "money thing" become a bigger and bigger issue with the folks there (running CES). The only correspondences I ever got from them (when I used to "partner with them", were requests for money for this, money for that, yada, yada, yada. I suppose folks like Tzaia and others who were more directly involved could add more. But - - - don't anyone here expect a response from anyone there at "headquarters". I'm thinking that the song by Simon and Garfunkel (Silence is Golden) is their theme song.
I haven't stepped foot in the offices since early 2005 and have had virtually no contact with anyone within the home office - my choice. The irony about this whole thing is that my last contact involved one of them "thanking" me for what I had done for CES, so I asked about how things were going. I got the whole things are better than ever - only to find out they've been doing a slow meltdown pretty much the entire time. I'm not sure how that could qualify as "better than ever" unless the person who told me that is seriously deluded. It could be karma - I don't know. What I do detect is that they are hurting for cash. They, like TWI, have a fair amount of international "followers" that have NO idea how screwed up things are in the home office, but they also don't have any money. The people who have written partner testimonies sound like they are ex-TWI. I would imagine that this podcast is directed to them because he used language and references that would convict the ex-TWI-but-has-never-mentally-left mindset.
Things are going to devolve at STF-I because DG is trying to become the BMOC that he never was in TWI (ala VPW), and JWS has never taken a serious inventory of his beliefs received from TWI. Furthermore, this is a guy who wrote a whole NT because the one(s) we have do not fit his theology and he believes his theology is the one correct theology in all the theologies out there.
What I find fascinating about him is that in all his study at TWI HQ in the research department, he never got that adultery/fornication thing until he "really started looking into it". I was astounded when he told me that in 1987. Because of that, I have taken his approach to study and research with a kosher grain of salt and have found that he values his own opinion above anyone else's - regardless of how uninformed that opinion might be.
Why would anyone in their right mind support this "ministry"? Seriously.
Things are going to devolve at STF-I because DG is trying to become the BMOC that he never was in TWI (ala VPW), and JWS has never taken a serious inventory of his beliefs received from TWI. Furthermore, this is a guy who wrote a whole NT because the one(s) we have do not fit his theology and he believes his theology is the one correct theology in all the theologies out there.
Let's just say I've met them both recently, but wouldn't put much trust in either..
Dan G. had a larger ego than LCM of TWI IMHO. I never understood their choice to bring him on board the staff. I remember talking with him right after they made that decision, and he acted like he was Christ being asked to help save the ministry, and how he had all the answers to fix what he thought was wrong with the ministry. Yeah.. He wants to be the BMOC alright..
And Schoenheit.. That's just scary. He doesn't consider any others opinion except to try and find why it can't fit with his theology and must be wrong. Even with clear proof. Even to the point of not finding evidence to his side but proof on the opposite side and saying, well, it could go either way.
They want money.. That's all there is to say.. Especially when he says things like this!
Could I just give $1? NO NO NO.. If Abraham and Jacob could give 10%, COME ON, that's a good number,
Most charities are glad to get whatever people can offer. STFI.. $1.. NO NO NO was his answer. 10% !! Come on..
If that's not pushing people to give, I don't know what is.
IMO this group is continuing to propound TWI errors and false claims, stating as truth their own beliefs beginning with stating "The Bible is the Word of God."
This is the definition of the Bible that VPW began with. He defined what the Bible was. We all know, he denounced anyone with an educated differing opinion on what the documents were. In my view, it is dishonest to say that is biblical research.
It does not seem that these groups will ever come clean and state that what they are teaching is their BELIEF, and if anyone wants to join in and believe with them, fine.
But they continually claim their beliefs as THE TRUTH and that everyone else should believe it or else go to hell or lose rewards or suffer some other demise. This system is intolerant and has caused more trouble than healing IMO.
Don't hold your breath if you think they will change. They've invested too much.
IMO this group is continuing to propound TWI errors and false claims, stating as truth their own beliefs beginning with stating "The Bible is the Word of God."
This is the definition of the Bible that VPW began with. He defined what the Bible was. We all know, he denounced anyone with an educated differing opinion on what the documents were. In my view, it is dishonest to say that is biblical research.
It does not seem that these groups will ever come clean and state that what they are teaching is their BELIEF, and if anyone wants to join in and believe with them, fine.
But they continually claim their beliefs as THE TRUTH and that everyone else should believe it or else go to hell or lose rewards or suffer some other demise. This system is intolerant and has caused more trouble than healing IMO.
Don't hold your breath if you think they will change. They've invested too much.
You know, no one whose sole business and means of employment is biblical research and/or teaching and/or fellowship is going to include in their mission statement, "Some parts of the Bible might be complete and utter horse$h!t. Caveat emptor." They will spend the rest of their careers (if not their lives) making sure the "Word" fits like a schvantz in a vise.
Soooo.... some people have been "partners" with CES.
I recall a shedload of teachings about how "partners" "fully share" with each other.
So is this partnership - one side of which is now begging money - also a partnership the other way? Like, if one of the partners has a financial need - does cash from from CES to the partner?
A million to one, the partnership is : You give us your money; We give you (recycled) "teaching and support". So no full sharing, then. Clearly no-one is allowed to "teach" them.
Who do they think they will profit from right now?
clearly it is the teens and twenties group.
Ironic it is. Most wafers have children in that age group now. Most ex twi's families are now in the teens and twenties, those that left in the late 80's early 90's on John L and John S and others fall out .. those that had not been around long enough to be fed up and just go away from the whole ordeal... that needed to jump on the other ship linked to "the word" .
If nothing eles works bring in the cry for the children ! What about the kids? what about the kids? they will never know the truth now, you better give.
When I was marked that is what stung me so hard in my cult brain O Mo OH NO the kids ( they were babys at the time.. NOW they will ever KNOW God or the ministry! Honestly it frightened me the worst of all of it.
They are the furture John S is talking about.
when your kids get to the age of independent thinking a "good" parent will want them to go in the right direction.. to "train " them as the bible says..... in the way to go.
this is the reality of most of their faithful ex twi people.
effective it is.
In marketing the best advantage is always to see a need ( or in this case a fear) and then sell on that premise.
Since hini the gel to rid germs on your hands can now be found every where.... not so 3 years ago.. fear sells.
Our future for any loving person is mostly our children and that is who they market now.
Suck in the kids and the bank roll wil last while the aging boomers begin to grow older and retire etc.
seriously these guys are not fools.
I believe this is why the face book, my space and twitter accounts and the heavy heavy computer and tech toys are being advertised .
The books they wrote are not the key sell points any more... the 10 minute teachings and all the puter stuff is what they are selling heavy now... hmmm and that is the mind set of the young.
Interesting point. Though knowing what we know about the inner workings of the group, how many would want their kinds to go to the stiffi church?
They have teens and twenty thing every year ( Like the rock of Ages) also you know a home fellowship or a group at school and now the young folks fellowship on-line alot. camp vision alot of stuff happens to be available. lol .
Well of course for the sold out believer there is not another option for those you love.
it is the same twi mind set just new and improved and now with grown children doing it for our future.
1. The organization was fronted for decades, largely by a fella who by his own self-admission participated in seventeen extr-marital affairs in his way days, no idea how many (if any) after he left.. or rather, was fired..
2. a board used false (personal) prophecies to war amongst themselves.. and to this day, STILL is not accountable to their followers..
3. after DECADES of knowing the "deep character faults" of the guy who fronted the organization, finally, only when he proved himself to be an arrogant, ineffective and "unprofitable" buffoon, did they choose to cut ties..
4. Has a president, who previously had to do "extensive" research, to figure out adultery was biblically "wrong".. maybe that's why he thinks he has some kind of *ministry* or something..
5. Not to mention the momentus fiasco, and its resulting effects on the organization.. apparently ending(?) with throwing Gr*eser and Lynn off the "lifeboat".. they probably think lynns reply to all this to be claiming a "victim" mentality..
as a PARENT, I would rather see my kid involved in the Salvation Army, or the United Way, in the local volunteer recycling group, or whatever.. anything but this kind of *organization*, with its track record of DECADES of nonsense..
Recommended Posts
Rejoice
"As a man purposes in his heart so let him give, not grudgingly, or of necessity, or for God loves a cheerful giver."
Yep, and it doesn't say money either.
New Living Translation:
You must each decide in your heart how much to give. And don't give reluctantly or in response to pressure. "For God loves a person who gives cheerfully."
New American Standard Translation:
Each one must do just as he has purposed in his heart, not grudgingly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.
International Standard Version:
Each of you must give what you have decided in your heart, not with regret or under compulsion, since God loves a cheerful giver
And, it also doesn't say *to whom*. Maybe I want to give 50% of my talents, time, shoes to my neighbor who has the need---and it is totally up to me, not some preacher directing my path or choice...and certainly not under pressure or compulsion! It's more TWI expounding of truth, because remember---"STF Truth Matters" :wacko:
Edited by RejoiceLink to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Great points. Thanks for the other versions they added some insight.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Raf did some mighty fine work on this subject. Unfortunately, I can't seem to find it at the moment.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penworks
Quote from Oldschool's transcription of the podcast:
"...the Word of God says that Christians should give their very lives as living sacrifices and that certainly includes giving; giving time, material goods, and money. Although some people's situation may be such that they cannot give ten percent to the work of God, many people can and should give more than that. This teaching not only covers giving and tithing, but also provides biblical information about what to give and where Christians should give."
The above is a rehash of TWI dogma, as most of us can see.
I'm reminded of this quote from The True Believer - Thoughts on the Nature of Mass Movements by Eric Hoffer, " It is startling to realize how much unbelief is necessary to make belief possible." p79.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
I will take this further to say that people are probably giving - and giving a lot - just not to STF-I. It's not just that the people at STF-I lack character, self-awareness, meekness, and humility, it's that they are missing the boat in how Jesus wanted money, time, and effort utilized.
I'm done giving money to an organization where most of it is used for administrative purposes. Since it isn't doing anything that remotely resembles "church" or "missions" where does this money go that benefits anyone outside the "home" office?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Let em get day jobs and work the podcasts and such on nights and weekends. I'm not spending a dime to support their business.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TrustAndObey
What a bunch of BS if you ask me.. Some people are not able to GIVE, in fact they are in NEED. It's like most have said, let each give as he has purposed and is able.. And since they have purposed, they don't need some stuck up egomaniac to try and convince them to give more. This is what erks me about Christianity as a whole. Nothing but panhandlers asking for handouts every other Sunday.
I have no problem to give and help those in need. And right now, STFI folks need to go get jobs, and I'm helping them by not supporting their panhandling!
Not only are their "ministers" not anything close to the Levites and Priests who were forbidden to own land (although many try and associate themselves with the Priests). The tithe was not JUST for them. The tithe just means a tenth. And while Israel gave a tenth to the Levites. They also gave a tenth to the homeless/fatherless. And they gave a tithe to themselves to enjoy!! But you won't hear them talking about that, will you.. And eventually they gave a tenth/tithe to the government. Yes, those ugly taxes because Israel wanted a king but God said if you do, the king will require a tithe/tenth of everything from you.
The tenth/tithes of the OT was just God's way of having each person take care of those who had needs around them. Not to take care of some pompous egotistical ar$e who thinks he knows better than anyone else and even is making their own translation to prove their ego. And what God didn't want was some government taking the tithes and having the "government" take care of those in need thus releaving the people of their duty! Instead the people sit by why those in need around them get missed, which was the purpose of the tithe you freakin STFI numbnuts.. Each person was responsible for taking care of the needs of their brothers and sisters, instead of waiting on some corrupt government assistance or corrupt ministry to sit on their egotistical ar$e.
Deuteronomy 14:22-27 “Thou shalt truly tithe all the increase of thy seed, that the field bringeth forth year by year. And thou shalt eat before the LORD thy God, in the place which he shall choose to place his name there, the tithe of thy corn, of thy wine, and of thine oil, and the firstlings of thy herds and of thy flocks; that thou mayest learn to love the LORD thy God always. And if the way be too long for thee, so that thou art not able to carry it; or if the place be too far from thee, which the LORD thy God shall choose to set his name there, when the LORD thy God hath blessed thee: Then shalt thou turn it into money, and bind up the money in thine hand, and shalt go unto the place which the LORD thy God shall choose: And thou shalt bestow that money for whatsoever thy soul lusteth after, for oxen, or for sheep, or for wine, or for strong drink, or for whatsoever thy soul desireth: and thou shalt eat the tithe there before the LORD thy God, and thou shalt rejoice, thou, and thine household.
Deuteronomy 14:28 – 29 “At the end of three years thou shalt bring forth all the tenth(tithe) of thine increase the same year, and shalt lay it up within thy gates: And the Levite, because he hath no part nor inheritance with thee, and the stranger, and the fatherless, and the widow, which are within thy gates, shall come, and shall eat and be satisfied; that the LORD thy God may bless thee in all the work of thine hand which thou doest.”
Edited by TrustAndObeyLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Oh, anything to get a bit of money, and to increase the bondage upon the people providing the money.
Some years ago, I got in conversation with a young Muslim woman - we worked at the same office. She told me that under Muslim law, everyone is required to give away 1/10 of his or her income.
-To whom? I asked.
-To anyone who needs it, she said.
-Not to the mosque or Muslim leaders or charities?
-No, wherever you want.
-Can you give it to some local charity or to your friend or to your family?
-Wherever you want, it can be anywhere. You're just supposed to give away that much.
I was still rather Waybrained at the time, but it struck me how much freer she seemed to be that Way people.
This from a lass in her mid 20s, with lowish-cut top and ordinary pants/trousers, bare-headed and made-up. Went to the mosque but enjoyed life too.
Edited by TwinkyLink to comment
Share on other sites
TrustAndObey
Well, I did it.. I tortured myself.. I listened to the podcast..
I felt if I was going to actually diss it, I better know what they said.. So anyone else who thought of doing the same, don't torture yourself!
And just a quick run down of was and wasn't said in the pod cast, and not just the intro..
First he(John Schoenheit) goes into why we give..
There you go guys.. Forget about giving because there's a need, or you have a desire, it's all about YOUR future !ENDQUOTE!
As I stated before, there were tithes for the homeless/poor/fatherless, tithes for you, and tithes for the government. But instead of going over those, he stuck with saying it's not worth the time and that
In other words, the mention of a tithe in the law was in regards for Levites and that other giving was just giving, not tithes. And in fact, he says, "The tithe ended because there was no longer a temple to take care of or a levitical system..". Emphasizing how the tithe was just for the levites.. No mention of tithes for others.. Just giving.. It sounded as if he had an agenda in how he worded that.And how about this quote:
There you go. As you have purposed in your heart. I mean.. Abraham and Jacob purposed.. 10%.. No you can't just give $1. Yup, That's the STFI answer..
Ok.. Last quotes:
While John Schoenheit mentions giving to the homeless, those in need. He listed 4.. The ministry was listed as first, family last..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pawtucket
What were the other two? And where do the homeless fit in?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TrustAndObey
Here's John Schoenheit's answer on that:
Give it up CES, STFI, John Schoenheit and co.. It's pretty clear you're out for those who "support" you "spiritually"..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
I wonder.. does he consider himself a modern day "levite"?
At this point, anybody STILL willing to throw money their way, I question said persons sanity..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
OldSkool
Break it down this way: by ministry he means SALARIES! The BOD needs to get paid for what they are doing. A LOT of folks are withholding money because of the current debacle in how they have handled JAL and EL. Instead of righting the wrong they are blaming people for not giving. Typical.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
OK - - - I've read though this thread, and I guess I'll toss in my 2 cents worth.
First and foremost, I have no problem buying a book, musical CD, etc., (be it from Amazon/ individual author/ CES/ or whomever. I figure if an author "did the work", spent money to get it published and spent money to promote it, it's worth it (should I choose to buy it). Now, having said that let me say this. CES has gone above and beyond and transcended the "pay as you go" policy for the work "produced". Once was a time (1987 - thereabouts) when the folks running the Org (CES) traveled around the country because the folks in the areas around the US wanted to hear them talk about twi, what was going on behind the scenes that were unknown to most of us who hadn't a clue as to what was going on, etc.
Seems like that soon escalated into a "new teaching ministry" which was producing books/ tapes/ websites/ and STAFF to make sure the supply met the demand generated by those going out to "spread the Word". CES was slowly turning into another twi with all the twists/ turns/ and idiosyncrasies one saw from the parent ORG twi. Suddenly (in my IMO), it wasn't about the Word anymore, it was all about CES. Took me a few years to realize this, but I finally realized this, and I'm thankful it didn't take me longer than it did although I wish I'd have seen it sooner.
As I mentioned to godmadegirl1983 in The GOT TRUTH "bumper sticker fiasco" thread, I've hung around and listened to the CES folks from the beginning up until around 2007 (or so), and I've got miles and miles of teaching tapes from them. One thing I noticed a coupla years ago was that the tapes were starting to sound (even) more and more like re-cycled twi teachings from the class. I should have seen it sooner, but when a tape from them (with John S. teaching) about how "church" can mean a buncha folks (rather than a denomination) caused me to sit up and say WHAT!!??? WHERE THE HELL-HAVE-I-HEARD-THIS-BEFORE????
Ces used to do some righteous teachings, that actually made you think. Their websites (Truth or Tradition and Biblical Unitarian) get a lot of hits from folks genuinely curious. But - - - (imo) anything "new" is a thing of the past. I'm reminded of the dog returning to it's own vomit, a pig wallowing in the mire, that sort of thing.
I've seen the "money thing" become a bigger and bigger issue with the folks there (running CES). The only correspondences I ever got from them (when I used to "partner with them", were requests for money for this, money for that, yada, yada, yada. I suppose folks like Tzaia and others who were more directly involved could add more. But - - - don't anyone here expect a response from anyone there at "headquarters". I'm thinking that the song by Simon and Garfunkel (Silence is Golden) is their theme song.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
I haven't stepped foot in the offices since early 2005 and have had virtually no contact with anyone within the home office - my choice. The irony about this whole thing is that my last contact involved one of them "thanking" me for what I had done for CES, so I asked about how things were going. I got the whole things are better than ever - only to find out they've been doing a slow meltdown pretty much the entire time. I'm not sure how that could qualify as "better than ever" unless the person who told me that is seriously deluded. It could be karma - I don't know. What I do detect is that they are hurting for cash. They, like TWI, have a fair amount of international "followers" that have NO idea how screwed up things are in the home office, but they also don't have any money. The people who have written partner testimonies sound like they are ex-TWI. I would imagine that this podcast is directed to them because he used language and references that would convict the ex-TWI-but-has-never-mentally-left mindset.
Things are going to devolve at STF-I because DG is trying to become the BMOC that he never was in TWI (ala VPW), and JWS has never taken a serious inventory of his beliefs received from TWI. Furthermore, this is a guy who wrote a whole NT because the one(s) we have do not fit his theology and he believes his theology is the one correct theology in all the theologies out there.
What I find fascinating about him is that in all his study at TWI HQ in the research department, he never got that adultery/fornication thing until he "really started looking into it". I was astounded when he told me that in 1987. Because of that, I have taken his approach to study and research with a kosher grain of salt and have found that he values his own opinion above anyone else's - regardless of how uninformed that opinion might be.
Why would anyone in their right mind support this "ministry"? Seriously.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TrustAndObey
Let's just say I've met them both recently, but wouldn't put much trust in either..
Dan G. had a larger ego than LCM of TWI IMHO. I never understood their choice to bring him on board the staff. I remember talking with him right after they made that decision, and he acted like he was Christ being asked to help save the ministry, and how he had all the answers to fix what he thought was wrong with the ministry. Yeah.. He wants to be the BMOC alright..
And Schoenheit.. That's just scary. He doesn't consider any others opinion except to try and find why it can't fit with his theology and must be wrong. Even with clear proof. Even to the point of not finding evidence to his side but proof on the opposite side and saying, well, it could go either way.
They want money.. That's all there is to say.. Especially when he says things like this!
Most charities are glad to get whatever people can offer. STFI.. $1.. NO NO NO was his answer. 10% !! Come on..
If that's not pushing people to give, I don't know what is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
penworks
IMO this group is continuing to propound TWI errors and false claims, stating as truth their own beliefs beginning with stating "The Bible is the Word of God."
This is the definition of the Bible that VPW began with. He defined what the Bible was. We all know, he denounced anyone with an educated differing opinion on what the documents were. In my view, it is dishonest to say that is biblical research.
It does not seem that these groups will ever come clean and state that what they are teaching is their BELIEF, and if anyone wants to join in and believe with them, fine.
But they continually claim their beliefs as THE TRUTH and that everyone else should believe it or else go to hell or lose rewards or suffer some other demise. This system is intolerant and has caused more trouble than healing IMO.
Don't hold your breath if you think they will change. They've invested too much.
Edited by penworksLink to comment
Share on other sites
Kevlar2000
You know, no one whose sole business and means of employment is biblical research and/or teaching and/or fellowship is going to include in their mission statement, "Some parts of the Bible might be complete and utter horse$h!t. Caveat emptor." They will spend the rest of their careers (if not their lives) making sure the "Word" fits like a schvantz in a vise.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Soooo.... some people have been "partners" with CES.
I recall a shedload of teachings about how "partners" "fully share" with each other.
So is this partnership - one side of which is now begging money - also a partnership the other way? Like, if one of the partners has a financial need - does cash from from CES to the partner?
A million to one, the partnership is : You give us your money; We give you (recycled) "teaching and support". So no full sharing, then. Clearly no-one is allowed to "teach" them.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
pond
Who do they think they will profit from right now?
clearly it is the teens and twenties group.
Ironic it is. Most wafers have children in that age group now. Most ex twi's families are now in the teens and twenties, those that left in the late 80's early 90's on John L and John S and others fall out .. those that had not been around long enough to be fed up and just go away from the whole ordeal... that needed to jump on the other ship linked to "the word" .
If nothing eles works bring in the cry for the children ! What about the kids? what about the kids? they will never know the truth now, you better give.
When I was marked that is what stung me so hard in my cult brain O Mo OH NO the kids ( they were babys at the time.. NOW they will ever KNOW God or the ministry! Honestly it frightened me the worst of all of it.
They are the furture John S is talking about.
when your kids get to the age of independent thinking a "good" parent will want them to go in the right direction.. to "train " them as the bible says..... in the way to go.
this is the reality of most of their faithful ex twi people.
effective it is.
In marketing the best advantage is always to see a need ( or in this case a fear) and then sell on that premise.
Since hini the gel to rid germs on your hands can now be found every where.... not so 3 years ago.. fear sells.
Our future for any loving person is mostly our children and that is who they market now.
Suck in the kids and the bank roll wil last while the aging boomers begin to grow older and retire etc.
seriously these guys are not fools.
I believe this is why the face book, my space and twitter accounts and the heavy heavy computer and tech toys are being advertised .
The books they wrote are not the key sell points any more... the 10 minute teachings and all the puter stuff is what they are selling heavy now... hmmm and that is the mind set of the young.
Edited by pondLink to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Interesting point. Though knowing what we know about the inner workings of the group, how many would want their kids to go to the stiffi church?
Edited by HamLink to comment
Share on other sites
pond
They have teens and twenty thing every year ( Like the rock of Ages) also you know a home fellowship or a group at school and now the young folks fellowship on-line alot. camp vision alot of stuff happens to be available. lol .
Well of course for the sold out believer there is not another option for those you love.
it is the same twi mind set just new and improved and now with grown children doing it for our future.
I hope the lord returns soon .
Link to comment
Share on other sites
dmiller
Pond nailed it. Read her two previous posts, and you have CES/STFI in a nutshell.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Ham
Makes sense. But still.. as a PARENT.. knowing:
1. The organization was fronted for decades, largely by a fella who by his own self-admission participated in seventeen extr-marital affairs in his way days, no idea how many (if any) after he left.. or rather, was fired..
2. a board used false (personal) prophecies to war amongst themselves.. and to this day, STILL is not accountable to their followers..
3. after DECADES of knowing the "deep character faults" of the guy who fronted the organization, finally, only when he proved himself to be an arrogant, ineffective and "unprofitable" buffoon, did they choose to cut ties..
4. Has a president, who previously had to do "extensive" research, to figure out adultery was biblically "wrong".. maybe that's why he thinks he has some kind of *ministry* or something..
5. Not to mention the momentus fiasco, and its resulting effects on the organization.. apparently ending(?) with throwing Gr*eser and Lynn off the "lifeboat".. they probably think lynns reply to all this to be claiming a "victim" mentality..
as a PARENT, I would rather see my kid involved in the Salvation Army, or the United Way, in the local volunteer recycling group, or whatever.. anything but this kind of *organization*, with its track record of DECADES of nonsense..
even a (gawd forbid) CHURCH..
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.