You can hit the "Multiquote" button on more than one post then hit the "Add Reply" at the bottom - don't just hit the "Reply" to a single post. Up to (I think) three posts will be quoted and you can intersperse your comments as you see fit. However - whatever works for you.
hi rumrunner and thanks for that lesson and i'm trying it now but i don't have more than one person to quote now so it's not going to do anything different this time but i did try it to see at least the first part of it. and i've been talking about you and i don't mean to be talking about you badly but i was hoping you'd show up maybe and i could talk with you instead of about you.
Although I personally left The Way before it became prevalent, I have read here that, in later years, there was a complex protocol surrounding gift giving and gift receiving. The essence of the protocol was that gift giving can be used as a tool of entitlement and control. There are plenty of examples cited here on various threads.
On the other hand, during the years of my involvement, it was taught that you should never deny someone the opportunity to give to you because it would subsequently deny them the opportunity to "get blessed" through reciprocal receiving. In other words, you would be cutting them off from a chance to practice "giving and receiving". This was formally taught in twig leader meetings as the reason there was always an offering made available at every meeting. If you, as a twig leader, failed to take up an offering, you would be chastised. Looking back, of course, it was all about rationalization.
In addition, Wierwille taught the aforementioned concept that, once you receive a gift, you can do whatever you want with it. This was used in the PFAL class to guilt people into "manifesting" and, also, to elicit more commitment from followers. Wierwille, of course, used it as a means of justifying his use of ministry funds to fuel his materialistic lifestyle.
My conclusion is that, if you wanted to learn something about the essence of gift giving, The Way was not a very good place to learn it
and dammit i just got a call and have to run for a few hours but i really do want to talk with you rumrunner because after reading what geisha said i think you were trying to make a point i didn't get from what you said and i'd like to know that if it is so.
and dammit i just got a call and have to run for a few hours but i really do want to talk with you rumrunner because after reading what geisha said i think you were trying to make a point i didn't get from what you said and i'd like to know that if it is so.
oh boy i'm not even going to try to do the quote thing so that everybody knows what person i'm responding to so i'm just going to say who i'm responding to because i'm just not that talented ok?
tzaia you keep trying to moot my points and i wonder if you're meaning to say my points are "of little or no practical value or meaning"? because whether you like it or not some of the points i make that you try to moot had meaning to us all at one time or another and still have meaning to many people that read here and are still in the way international and still think way international thoughts and wonder how we survive outside of the way international. but then again it could be that you're using the first definition of moot saying that my points are " open to discussion or debate", in which case it would be great if you followed up your mooting with discussion or debate so that we all may be enlightened.
Brainfixed - I think you're reading too much into Tzaia'a "moot point" comment. I highly doubt she is trying to moot your points. I suspect it's much more likely that she is mocking the things that twi taught - and how the fear they tried to instill about "being outside the hedge of protection" is a moot point (the fear is a moot point) once you realize that there is no hedge of protection to be outside of to begin with. There is no dragon to fear - so the fear of a dragon is a moot point.
lol george, that's pretty much really what it is like here, isn't it? lol
geisha there's a whole dynamic that is being ignored when making such a statement that i truly hope isn't a dynamic that anybody here is wanting to say thrives here, and that is that the owner of this site has set himself up as some sort of father figure that lulls people into trusting him with their very lives as an answer from god.
WHOA! Wait a minute there! Paw sets himself up as a father figure???!!! Uhhhhh.... no. He's never even tried to put himself forth as a father figure. Maybe you've gotten that idea from the nickname/screen name "Paw" from "Pawtucket" but in no way, shape or form has Pawtucket lulled people into trusting him with their very lives for an answer for anything. If anything, Paw has been fairly hands off and steps in only as a last resort. He seems to realize that lots folks need to vent in lots of different ways and he allows it - up to a point.
the whole motorcoach thing was never about friendship and caring about anybody. the correlation cannot even be made here unless anyone wants to set up the owner of this site as the same type of perpetrator as the owner of the motorcoach, and the participants of this site as the same type of followers, and the purpose of this site as the same type of cult. do you seriously equate being drugged and raped to being dissed on a website? if so, then you and i don't just look at things from different angles, you and i are worlds apart.
The "motorcoach thing" was about betrayal. der Victoid betrayed the girls he drugged because they trusted him to know better and to do better and to teach them better. The context of RR's statement has nothing to do with rape and sexual abuse.
I don't put my life out there for all to read, and I never will. I will say that one day when I was particularly down and wishing life were different and going through the "if only...hadn't done... things would be different..." my aunt stopped me dead in my tracks and told me that there were people in the world who had a much harder life and had overcome. "From this moment on your life is YOUR'S! No excuses. No blaming anyone else," is what she said to me. That woke me up.
I would never minimize the severity of sexual abuse - or any abuse for that matter. I hope it doesn't appear that that's what I'm trying to do now. However, I suspect that for you to have overcome in any sense of the word, you have had to work at not making everything in your life somehow relate to being abused. I suspect that you don't make everyone in your life pay for what someone else did years ago. I never read the motorcoach statement as pointing to rape or abuse, nor does it connect this site or the owner of the site to rape or abuse.
I don't mean to offend - just to offer some food for thought here...
as for the whole "rules surrounding the giving and receiving of gifts" it's something people don't pay enough attention to and it's something that gets people into problems in interpersonal relationships before they even know what's hit them. how gifts are given and received are at the base of how relationships are built or torn apart and for some reason people tend to think that if they give somebody something then they have also bought into that person's life a little bit in that there is now an expectation about what happens with that gift even if it's just getting a thank you for the gift or a displaying of the gift or a taking care of the gift. i can't believe you were in the way international and missed the whole thing about gift giving in the etiquette lessons? maybe i got them because my brother and my sister were corps? i don't know but there were reams of paper with rules and rules and rules about gifts that were really about how to control people with gifts. anyway i really did have to get therapy to unlearn that crap and to find out that the way international didn't have a corner on the control people with gifts market.
In my life I have received "gifts" with strings attached - and no they don't feel like gifts. BUT - I believe that geisha was saying that GSC is a gift to many in a figurative sense in that there is a place to talk and argue and vent - and yes the rules of society apply here.
Just my POV on what's been going on...for what it's worth...
geisha there's a whole dynamic that is being ignored when making such a statement that i truly hope isn't a dynamic that anybody here is wanting to say thrives here, and that is that the owner of this site has set himself up as some sort of father figure that lulls people into trusting him with their very lives as an answer from god. the whole motorcoach thing was never about friendship and caring about anybody. the correlation cannot even be made here unless anyone wants to set up the owner of this site as the same type of perpetrator as the owner of the motorcoach, and the participants of this site as the same type of followers, and the purpose of this site as the same type of cult. do you seriously equate being drugged and raped to being dissed on a website? if so, then you and i don't just look at things from different angles, you and i are worlds apart.
No, I don't think so. People can have care, concern, and kindness for others without that dynamic present. . . . they can reasonably expect to not be betrayed by someone they have been friends with. . . . those are normal, grown-up expectations.
Loyalty and trust are not things that have to be spun into some bizarre dynamic to be appreciated.
The motor coach could be a symbol of betrayal of trust without the rest of the scenario present. Isn't that what it is among people here?
It was a poor choice. . . . pointed. . . . but, I am not going to assume it was meant to hurt and used in any other way than as a symbol unless RR tells me otherwise. . . . and I don't think that Pawtucket needs to be a cult leader to be betrayed by a friend.
In my world. . . . if you talk meanly behind my back after I have extended myself to you, cared, and offered myself as a friend. That is a betrayal. I will forgive you, but we will have to reconcile because something will have been broken.
You keep doing it. . . . eventually I will figure out you don't really want to be a friend. Despite that I would probably still be there if you needed something.
No hidden meaning. Just kindness and care with a reasonable expectation of reciprocity. Broken trust is a betrayal among friends. People who were once in a cult. . . . can be real friends to one another. :)
In my life I have received "gifts" with strings attached - and no they don't feel like gifts. BUT - I believe that geisha was saying that GSC a gift to many in a figurative sense in that there is a place to talk and argue and vent - and yes the rules of society apply here.
Not sure I completely agree about the generalization of the rules of society applying here Dooj. The net has a long history of the general rules not applying since there is this charade of anonymity about it. In many ways GSC is no different than Facebook, MySpace, or Twitter or any other social networking site. Granted there is some common focus here about TWI, but it really functions as another social networking site. As you well know - most rules of society are not even remotely followed on Facebook et. al. The pics people often post on FB would probably never be posted at the work place, on campus, at school. The dialogues would never be repeated at the office. That is not necessarily a bad thing. Consider that most people who are here would also not go to the office and describe a decade of being in a religious cult...not good for a promotion...however they can express themselves here and the general population of GSC will understand to some degree.
Speaking only for myself I hope the general rules of society NEVER apply to the net. Societal rules are half functional on a good day. The net is wide open and while it offends some - the fact is that it remains the mechanism of the single most free thinking expression(s) in the world. For those who wish to govern others' morals and behavior - indeed - they would like to see the net controlled, "moderated," edited, censored even - rather evident on this site from certain repetitive posters. Over six billion people on this planet and somehow people are still offended with differences of opinion. Religion - ain't it just freakin' grand?
IMO we should be sending cell phones, faxes and net connections to the middle east and not munitions and soldiers.
I guess I was trying to say that the rules here at GSC aren't in the category of being controlling.
Agreed that the rules of GSC are not controlling by design. I was thinking more about trying to apply so-called societal norms to an ex-cult networking site. One thing I find rather amusing is to compare "Politics and Tacks" to "About the Way" and/or "Open." In P&T there are plenty of good barroom brawls - pretty much on a daily basis - but as Mstar noted - while the disagreement on various issues is vehement - probably most of the participants would be glad to have a beer together. That willingness to be radically different from one another - and yet not make it some personal gig - seems to be lacking in some other threads.
Then again I've rarely been known for tact and diplomacy.
ok i talked to somebody at work about how to do things with the quotes here because i can't get the multiquote thing right in my head so i'm going to try what my co-worker said and see how that works and if it doesn't i'll go back to what i was doing.
Brainfixed - I think you're reading too much into Tzaia'a "moot point" comment. I highly doubt she is trying to moot your points. I suspect it's much more likely that she is mocking the things that twi taught - and how the fear they tried to instill about "being outside the hedge of protection" is a moot point (the fear is a moot point) once you realize that there is no hedge of protection to be outside of to begin with. There is no dragon to fear - so the fear of a dragon is a moot point.
ok maybe so and i said as much (in my quote below) and asked that tzaia speak for him or herself.
but then again it could be that you're using the first definition of moot saying that my points are " open to discussion or debate", in which case it would be great if you followed up your mooting with discussion or debate so that we all may be enlightened.
it does nobody any good to just say something is a moot point and leave it at that unless it's being said just for the saying so but then the discussion part of it gets left out and what good is a discussion forum without the discussion? why is it a moot point? how did someone arrive at that realization after all those years of not thinking it was a moot point? what did it take to convince you it was a moot point? these things help others see what is so moot about the point. otherwise it's just a remark that isn't helpful and can be taken as sarcastic and usually is taken as sarcastic when said between two people that don't know each other from brown stuff and shinola.
WHOA! Wait a minute there! Paw sets himself up as a father figure???!!! Uhhhhh.... no. He's never even tried to put himself forth as a father figure. Maybe you've gotten that idea from the nickname/screen name "Paw" from "Pawtucket" but in no way, shape or form has Pawtucket lulled people into trusting him with their very lives for an answer for anything. If anything, Paw has been fairly hands off and steps in only as a last resort. He seems to realize that lots folks need to vent in lots of different ways and he allows it - up to a point.
i wish you'd read the rest of what i'd said so i'll quote it below so you can.
the correlation cannot even be made here unless anyone wants to set up the owner of this site as the same type of perpetrator as the owner of the motorcoach, and the participants of this site as the same type of followers, and the purpose of this site as the same type of cult. do you seriously equate being drugged and raped to being dissed on a website? if so, then you and i don't just look at things from different angles, you and i are worlds apart.
i did not say i set up the owner of this site, this site or the purpose of this site as such and i didn't make the original correlation between a motorcoach raping and drugging and being "betrayed" on another website, either, but all i did was say it's not even comparable.
The "motorcoach thing" was about betrayal. der Victoid betrayed the girls he drugged because they trusted him to know better and to do better and to teach them better. The context of RR's statement has nothing to do with rape and sexual abuse.
i have to throw the b.s. flag on this one because the only thing that ex could relate the whole motorcoach experience to was rape and sexual abuse and that is who was being addressed directly by name when that statement was made. maybe it was and maybe it wasn't meant to hit that particular target so obviously, but what other target could it have been meant to hit with that particular person?
I don't put my life out there for all to read, and I never will. I will say that one day when I was particularly down and wishing life were different and going through the "if only...hadn't done... things would be different..." my aunt stopped me dead in my tracks and told me that there were people in the world who had a much harder life and had overcome. "From this moment on your life is YOUR'S! No excuses. No blaming anyone else," is what she said to me. That woke me up.
this argument is getting thin with me because it works only so far and it has become the hiding place of people that tend to go around brown stuffing on others and then spouting off this crapola (not saying that's what you're doing in particular) and it doesn't look at reality much because if it did there wouldn't even be a greasespot cafe would there? because then there wouldn't be anything to talk about because there'd be no excuses and nobody to blame, which is what is done a lot when it comes to telling "the other side" of the way international story, particularly on the discussion boards here. and what about the lawsuits? didn't somebody get blamed there? tell me that if somebody hits your car and you're not at fault that you won't get their insurance information and make their insurance shell out. and i'll bet you'd be out for everything you could get if somebody did to your children what the way international has done to people's children, grown or not.
before you go off on some sort of thing that you didn't mean it like that or something, i get that what you're trying to say is that people need to move forward and not let things hold them back in life. ok. i get it. but i don't get why people keep saying it around here. do people really think that it's helpful? it's not. do people really think that there are very many people with computers and internet access and the ability to function enough to keep the bills paid so that they can participate on a discussion forum with any regularity also need to be told to grow up, take responsibility and move on? it's a worn out and thinly disguised last ditch argument.
I would never minimize the severity of sexual abuse - or any abuse for that matter. I hope it doesn't appear that that's what I'm trying to do now.
oh but you did (about the motorcoach before) and just a minute, you will again and here it comes.
However, I suspect that for you to have overcome in any sense of the word, you have had to work at not making everything in your life somehow relate to being abused. I suspect that you don't make everyone in your life pay for what someone else did years ago. I never read the motorcoach statement as pointing to rape or abuse, nor does it connect this site or the owner of the site to rape or abuse.
I don't mean to offend - just to offer some food for thought here...
No, I don't think so. People can have care, concern, and kindness for others without that dynamic present. . . . they can reasonably expect to not be betrayed by someone they have been friends with. . . . those are normal, grown-up expectations.
Loyalty and trust are not things that have to be spun into some bizarre dynamic to be appreciated.
The motor coach could be a symbol of betrayal of trust without the rest of the scenario present. Isn't that what it is among people here?
It was a poor choice. . . . pointed. . . . but, I am not going to assume it was meant to hurt and used in any other way than as a symbol unless RR tells me otherwise. . . . and I don't think that Pawtucket needs to be a cult leader to be betrayed by a friend.
In my world. . . . if you talk meanly behind my back after I have extended myself to you, cared, and offered myself as a friend. That is a betrayal. I will forgive you, but we will have to reconcile because something will have been broken.
You keep doing it. . . . eventually I will figure out you don't really want to be a friend. Despite that I would probably still be there if you needed something.
No hidden meaning. Just kindness and care with a reasonable expectation of reciprocity. Broken trust is a betrayal among friends. People who were once in a cult. . . . can be real friends to one another. :)
My take and experience anyway.
i'm beginning to realize that there are people in the world that think being drugged and raped are equivalent to being backstabbed. this helps me to understand a lot of other things i haven't been able to understand before.
rumrunner i'm finally back and maybe you're not so happy about that huh? :P what i wanted to ask you is about that whole motorcoach comment because as you can probably tell it set off something with me and i get the feeling that you didn't intend it to read the way i read it but i can't see how it could have been taken any differently. and even if the person you addressed it to didn't take it the way i took it, i took it that way because i've read the bits and pieces around here about that particular person's experience and that's all i could think of when i read that comment and it just blew my mind that somebody could even go there. i'd do this in private but the whole thing has been discussed so much already and i don't do private anything with people here because my experiences with that was like being taken into leadership for one of those spit sessions i've read about. anyway, i feel that probably it would be ok to be open with this because it's out here already and because maybe it would be something nice to see people working things out? i don't think you're a bad person or an abuser or anything like that. what i do think is that in the heat of the moment you chose the one thing that the person could relate to as a betrayal of trust but that you didn't think any deeper than that, so i'm not accusing you of anything except the heat of the moment, and i was very careful to say that i wasn't accusing you of anything, but i have been very staunch about regardless it was harsh if you look at it again. so what do you think?
i'm beginning to realize that there are people in the world that think being drugged and raped are equivalent to being backstabbed. this helps me to understand a lot of other things i haven't been able to understand before.
Well I was just going to leave this thread alone but your last post (you're up way too late or way too early) prompted a couple of comments.
do people really think that there are very many people with computers and internet access and the ability to function enough to keep the bills paid so that they can participate on a discussion forum with any regularity also need to be told to grow up, take responsibility and move on? it's a worn out and thinly disguised last ditch argument.
Sometimes yes. The ability to type in http://www.myprivateplace.com does not implicitly imply societal functionality. Ever hear the phrase "high functioning" <pick your substance abuse of choice>?
i'm beginning to realize that there are people in the world that think being drugged and raped are equivalent to being backstabbed. this helps me to understand a lot of other things i haven't been able to understand before.
That is tragically unfortunate but true. In most of the world women are still treated as nothing more than sexual property. If you'd like I can suggest a few countries to visit besides New Knoxville.
If you read around here you will see that more than one woman was sexually molested, abused, and debased by the great vp and his filthy and drunken little henchmen. There is no one I can think of on this site who would condone, nor attempt to justify, by moral, legal, or "biblical" means, sexual abuse of women in the name of god, or for that matter in the name of anything. Spend a few bucks on Kirsten's book and EyesOpen's book. Generally, people here are pretty much with open arms to those who got abused.
If there is one weakness - and it is not a weakness of GSC - people in general are like this - it is that some people - who I am reasonably sure are perfectly nice people and would never harm an ant - still feel some obligation to be the moral thought police. Some of it is still clearly steeped in TWI doctrine...some of it is just...well maybe just because they want the world to be a better place (bad news - it ain't gonna happen).
Now if you would prefer to keep up with your constant comments about the motor coach comment - please read the one person who got it right - Geisha. Outside of that feel free to flame me all day long. I'll add your name to a long and distinguished list of people. BTW - before you toss around phrases like "passive aggressive" you might want to ask me what my MMPPI scores look like - since those are the accepted standard for psychological evaluation from everything from "fit to stand trial" to (god forbid) able to launch a nuke.
Anyway - you have some interesting comments posted and some interesting questions. You mentioned you would like to talk with me and not about me. Fair enough. However I will not do that in some public forum. If you want to talk I'll be glad to call you on my dime or give you my phone number and we can talk and not just post on threads.
i'm beginning to realize that there are people in the world that think being drugged and raped are equivalent to being backstabbed. this helps me to understand a lot of other things i haven't been able to understand before.
Maybe there are, but I am not one of them. I was speaking of an element of betrayal. . . . not likening the entire act of being drugged and raped as equivelent to backstabbing a friend.
Just tried to make a point. . . it was simple. Motorcoach as s symbol of betrayal. . . yep
Drugging and rape equivalent to backstabbing a friend. . . . nope.
Is all betrayal equal. . . nope
Does it have to be to use a familar symbol of betrayal. . . nope.
I understood the point without projecting a wealth of hidden meaning into his post. . . . not rocket science. . . . which btw he actually could have put in there.
well, i had no intentions of "flaming" (i had to look that up) you rumrunner and i made that perfectly clear, or so i thought, but i'm not about to get into any "private" conversations with anybody around here either so i guess this means you and i have had all the discussion we're going to have. but i will say this letting other people say what you mean is wierd to say the least and not something i had come to expect as "normal" from the "regulars" around here, but hey, who am i to think anybody should live up to my expectations because that wouldn't be a "normal" thing around here at all and the lord forbid i wouldn't fit in.
oh and for what it's worth "high functioning" means exactly what it says it means and that is "high functioning". it isn't "rocket science" either, to figure it out.
Brainfixed, I'm not sure if you'll ever read this - but you have totally misread my comments. Totally gotten me wrong.
I'm not sure how or why - but you seem to have the distinct knack to come up with an interpretation of my words that is 180 degrees different from what I mean, and you do so consistently. I don't know what to say or do to make myself much clearer - but you should consider how frustrated you get when people misinterpret your words and realize that you do the same.
While you may be working through your life, please remember that there are others here that are also working through their own stuff.
Brainfixed, I'm not sure if you'll ever read this - but you have totally misread my comments. Totally gotten me wrong.
I'm not sure how or why - but you seem to have the distinct knack to come up with an interpretation of my words that is 180 degrees different from what I mean, and you do so consistently. I don't know what to say or do to make myself much clearer - but you should consider how frustrated you get when people misinterpret your words and realize that you do the same.
While you may be working through your life, please remember that there are others here that are also working through their own stuff.
I hope you find what you're searching for...
oh i'm not doing a disappearing act or anything but i'm just done with a discussion that was boggling my mind and i think i realized why, but i don't want to know one way or the other. but anyway, yah, i probably have misread a whole lot in this discussion because i'm thinking the discussion is about one thing and now i'm realizing there's a lot of little "one things" i either don't understand, don't know about, haven't read about yet or something. but that's ok because i really do not want to be "in the know" that deeply around here.
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pawtucket
No one likes being trashed. The trashing that goes on at other sites is going to happen. As Linda explained so well, I am going to be an object of criticism. It is an unfortunate side effect of the ty
RumRunner
I didn't know it was the charter of GSC to be helpful. I think that being helpful was from the BASIC (not WAY driven) goodness of people's own hearts. I believe - if I can still read English - the mis
excathedra
it took me YEARS to even TRY TO express what happened to me in the way, and i'm fairly certain it's "old news" to most people here i talked to someone today who was in for almost 30 years and out les
brainfixed
hi rumrunner and thanks for that lesson and i'm trying it now but i don't have more than one person to quote now so it's not going to do anything different this time but i did try it to see at least the first part of it. and i've been talking about you and i don't mean to be talking about you badly but i was hoping you'd show up maybe and i could talk with you instead of about you.
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waysider
Although I personally left The Way before it became prevalent, I have read here that, in later years, there was a complex protocol surrounding gift giving and gift receiving. The essence of the protocol was that gift giving can be used as a tool of entitlement and control. There are plenty of examples cited here on various threads.
On the other hand, during the years of my involvement, it was taught that you should never deny someone the opportunity to give to you because it would subsequently deny them the opportunity to "get blessed" through reciprocal receiving. In other words, you would be cutting them off from a chance to practice "giving and receiving". This was formally taught in twig leader meetings as the reason there was always an offering made available at every meeting. If you, as a twig leader, failed to take up an offering, you would be chastised. Looking back, of course, it was all about rationalization.
In addition, Wierwille taught the aforementioned concept that, once you receive a gift, you can do whatever you want with it. This was used in the PFAL class to guilt people into "manifesting" and, also, to elicit more commitment from followers. Wierwille, of course, used it as a means of justifying his use of ministry funds to fuel his materialistic lifestyle.
My conclusion is that, if you wanted to learn something about the essence of gift giving, The Way was not a very good place to learn it
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brainfixed
and dammit i just got a call and have to run for a few hours but i really do want to talk with you rumrunner because after reading what geisha said i think you were trying to make a point i didn't get from what you said and i'd like to know that if it is so.
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RumRunner
At your convenience.
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doojable
Brainfixed - I think you're reading too much into Tzaia'a "moot point" comment. I highly doubt she is trying to moot your points. I suspect it's much more likely that she is mocking the things that twi taught - and how the fear they tried to instill about "being outside the hedge of protection" is a moot point (the fear is a moot point) once you realize that there is no hedge of protection to be outside of to begin with. There is no dragon to fear - so the fear of a dragon is a moot point.
WHOA! Wait a minute there! Paw sets himself up as a father figure???!!! Uhhhhh.... no. He's never even tried to put himself forth as a father figure. Maybe you've gotten that idea from the nickname/screen name "Paw" from "Pawtucket" but in no way, shape or form has Pawtucket lulled people into trusting him with their very lives for an answer for anything. If anything, Paw has been fairly hands off and steps in only as a last resort. He seems to realize that lots folks need to vent in lots of different ways and he allows it - up to a point.
The "motorcoach thing" was about betrayal. der Victoid betrayed the girls he drugged because they trusted him to know better and to do better and to teach them better. The context of RR's statement has nothing to do with rape and sexual abuse.
I don't put my life out there for all to read, and I never will. I will say that one day when I was particularly down and wishing life were different and going through the "if only...hadn't done... things would be different..." my aunt stopped me dead in my tracks and told me that there were people in the world who had a much harder life and had overcome. "From this moment on your life is YOUR'S! No excuses. No blaming anyone else," is what she said to me. That woke me up.
I would never minimize the severity of sexual abuse - or any abuse for that matter. I hope it doesn't appear that that's what I'm trying to do now. However, I suspect that for you to have overcome in any sense of the word, you have had to work at not making everything in your life somehow relate to being abused. I suspect that you don't make everyone in your life pay for what someone else did years ago. I never read the motorcoach statement as pointing to rape or abuse, nor does it connect this site or the owner of the site to rape or abuse.
I don't mean to offend - just to offer some food for thought here...
In my life I have received "gifts" with strings attached - and no they don't feel like gifts. BUT - I believe that geisha was saying that GSC is a gift to many in a figurative sense in that there is a place to talk and argue and vent - and yes the rules of society apply here.
Just my POV on what's been going on...for what it's worth...
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doojable
Well maybe if we post a recipe or two there may be a stop in the kitchen ;)
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geisha779
No, I don't think so. People can have care, concern, and kindness for others without that dynamic present. . . . they can reasonably expect to not be betrayed by someone they have been friends with. . . . those are normal, grown-up expectations.
Loyalty and trust are not things that have to be spun into some bizarre dynamic to be appreciated.
The motor coach could be a symbol of betrayal of trust without the rest of the scenario present. Isn't that what it is among people here?
It was a poor choice. . . . pointed. . . . but, I am not going to assume it was meant to hurt and used in any other way than as a symbol unless RR tells me otherwise. . . . and I don't think that Pawtucket needs to be a cult leader to be betrayed by a friend.
In my world. . . . if you talk meanly behind my back after I have extended myself to you, cared, and offered myself as a friend. That is a betrayal. I will forgive you, but we will have to reconcile because something will have been broken.
You keep doing it. . . . eventually I will figure out you don't really want to be a friend. Despite that I would probably still be there if you needed something.
No hidden meaning. Just kindness and care with a reasonable expectation of reciprocity. Broken trust is a betrayal among friends. People who were once in a cult. . . . can be real friends to one another. :)
My take and experience anyway.
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RumRunner
Not sure I completely agree about the generalization of the rules of society applying here Dooj. The net has a long history of the general rules not applying since there is this charade of anonymity about it. In many ways GSC is no different than Facebook, MySpace, or Twitter or any other social networking site. Granted there is some common focus here about TWI, but it really functions as another social networking site. As you well know - most rules of society are not even remotely followed on Facebook et. al. The pics people often post on FB would probably never be posted at the work place, on campus, at school. The dialogues would never be repeated at the office. That is not necessarily a bad thing. Consider that most people who are here would also not go to the office and describe a decade of being in a religious cult...not good for a promotion...however they can express themselves here and the general population of GSC will understand to some degree.
Speaking only for myself I hope the general rules of society NEVER apply to the net. Societal rules are half functional on a good day. The net is wide open and while it offends some - the fact is that it remains the mechanism of the single most free thinking expression(s) in the world. For those who wish to govern others' morals and behavior - indeed - they would like to see the net controlled, "moderated," edited, censored even - rather evident on this site from certain repetitive posters. Over six billion people on this planet and somehow people are still offended with differences of opinion. Religion - ain't it just freakin' grand?
IMO we should be sending cell phones, faxes and net connections to the middle east and not munitions and soldiers.
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doojable
Point taken RR. I agree.
I guess I was trying to say that the rules here at GSC aren't in the category of being controlling.
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RumRunner
Agreed that the rules of GSC are not controlling by design. I was thinking more about trying to apply so-called societal norms to an ex-cult networking site. One thing I find rather amusing is to compare "Politics and Tacks" to "About the Way" and/or "Open." In P&T there are plenty of good barroom brawls - pretty much on a daily basis - but as Mstar noted - while the disagreement on various issues is vehement - probably most of the participants would be glad to have a beer together. That willingness to be radically different from one another - and yet not make it some personal gig - seems to be lacking in some other threads.
Then again I've rarely been known for tact and diplomacy.
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brainfixed
ok i talked to somebody at work about how to do things with the quotes here because i can't get the multiquote thing right in my head so i'm going to try what my co-worker said and see how that works and if it doesn't i'll go back to what i was doing.
ok maybe so and i said as much (in my quote below) and asked that tzaia speak for him or herself.
it does nobody any good to just say something is a moot point and leave it at that unless it's being said just for the saying so but then the discussion part of it gets left out and what good is a discussion forum without the discussion? why is it a moot point? how did someone arrive at that realization after all those years of not thinking it was a moot point? what did it take to convince you it was a moot point? these things help others see what is so moot about the point. otherwise it's just a remark that isn't helpful and can be taken as sarcastic and usually is taken as sarcastic when said between two people that don't know each other from brown stuff and shinola.
i wish you'd read the rest of what i'd said so i'll quote it below so you can.
i did not say i set up the owner of this site, this site or the purpose of this site as such and i didn't make the original correlation between a motorcoach raping and drugging and being "betrayed" on another website, either, but all i did was say it's not even comparable.
i have to throw the b.s. flag on this one because the only thing that ex could relate the whole motorcoach experience to was rape and sexual abuse and that is who was being addressed directly by name when that statement was made. maybe it was and maybe it wasn't meant to hit that particular target so obviously, but what other target could it have been meant to hit with that particular person?
this argument is getting thin with me because it works only so far and it has become the hiding place of people that tend to go around brown stuffing on others and then spouting off this crapola (not saying that's what you're doing in particular) and it doesn't look at reality much because if it did there wouldn't even be a greasespot cafe would there? because then there wouldn't be anything to talk about because there'd be no excuses and nobody to blame, which is what is done a lot when it comes to telling "the other side" of the way international story, particularly on the discussion boards here. and what about the lawsuits? didn't somebody get blamed there? tell me that if somebody hits your car and you're not at fault that you won't get their insurance information and make their insurance shell out. and i'll bet you'd be out for everything you could get if somebody did to your children what the way international has done to people's children, grown or not.
before you go off on some sort of thing that you didn't mean it like that or something, i get that what you're trying to say is that people need to move forward and not let things hold them back in life. ok. i get it. but i don't get why people keep saying it around here. do people really think that it's helpful? it's not. do people really think that there are very many people with computers and internet access and the ability to function enough to keep the bills paid so that they can participate on a discussion forum with any regularity also need to be told to grow up, take responsibility and move on? it's a worn out and thinly disguised last ditch argument.
oh but you did (about the motorcoach before) and just a minute, you will again and here it comes.
i'm beginning to realize that there are people in the world that think being drugged and raped are equivalent to being backstabbed. this helps me to understand a lot of other things i haven't been able to understand before.
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brainfixed
rumrunner i'm finally back and maybe you're not so happy about that huh? :P what i wanted to ask you is about that whole motorcoach comment because as you can probably tell it set off something with me and i get the feeling that you didn't intend it to read the way i read it but i can't see how it could have been taken any differently. and even if the person you addressed it to didn't take it the way i took it, i took it that way because i've read the bits and pieces around here about that particular person's experience and that's all i could think of when i read that comment and it just blew my mind that somebody could even go there. i'd do this in private but the whole thing has been discussed so much already and i don't do private anything with people here because my experiences with that was like being taken into leadership for one of those spit sessions i've read about. anyway, i feel that probably it would be ok to be open with this because it's out here already and because maybe it would be something nice to see people working things out? i don't think you're a bad person or an abuser or anything like that. what i do think is that in the heat of the moment you chose the one thing that the person could relate to as a betrayal of trust but that you didn't think any deeper than that, so i'm not accusing you of anything except the heat of the moment, and i was very careful to say that i wasn't accusing you of anything, but i have been very staunch about regardless it was harsh if you look at it again. so what do you think?
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waysider
Well said.
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RumRunner
Well I was just going to leave this thread alone but your last post (you're up way too late or way too early) prompted a couple of comments.
If you read around here you will see that more than one woman was sexually molested, abused, and debased by the great vp and his filthy and drunken little henchmen. There is no one I can think of on this site who would condone, nor attempt to justify, by moral, legal, or "biblical" means, sexual abuse of women in the name of god, or for that matter in the name of anything. Spend a few bucks on Kirsten's book and EyesOpen's book. Generally, people here are pretty much with open arms to those who got abused.
If there is one weakness - and it is not a weakness of GSC - people in general are like this - it is that some people - who I am reasonably sure are perfectly nice people and would never harm an ant - still feel some obligation to be the moral thought police. Some of it is still clearly steeped in TWI doctrine...some of it is just...well maybe just because they want the world to be a better place (bad news - it ain't gonna happen).
Now if you would prefer to keep up with your constant comments about the motor coach comment - please read the one person who got it right - Geisha. Outside of that feel free to flame me all day long. I'll add your name to a long and distinguished list of people. BTW - before you toss around phrases like "passive aggressive" you might want to ask me what my MMPPI scores look like - since those are the accepted standard for psychological evaluation from everything from "fit to stand trial" to (god forbid) able to launch a nuke.
Anyway - you have some interesting comments posted and some interesting questions. You mentioned you would like to talk with me and not about me. Fair enough. However I will not do that in some public forum. If you want to talk I'll be glad to call you on my dime or give you my phone number and we can talk and not just post on threads.
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geisha779
Maybe there are, but I am not one of them. I was speaking of an element of betrayal. . . . not likening the entire act of being drugged and raped as equivelent to backstabbing a friend.
Just tried to make a point. . . it was simple. Motorcoach as s symbol of betrayal. . . yep
Drugging and rape equivalent to backstabbing a friend. . . . nope.
Is all betrayal equal. . . nope
Does it have to be to use a familar symbol of betrayal. . . nope.
I understood the point without projecting a wealth of hidden meaning into his post. . . . not rocket science. . . . which btw he actually could have put in there.
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brainfixed
well, i had no intentions of "flaming" (i had to look that up) you rumrunner and i made that perfectly clear, or so i thought, but i'm not about to get into any "private" conversations with anybody around here either so i guess this means you and i have had all the discussion we're going to have. but i will say this letting other people say what you mean is wierd to say the least and not something i had come to expect as "normal" from the "regulars" around here, but hey, who am i to think anybody should live up to my expectations because that wouldn't be a "normal" thing around here at all and the lord forbid i wouldn't fit in.
oh and for what it's worth "high functioning" means exactly what it says it means and that is "high functioning". it isn't "rocket science" either, to figure it out.
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brainfixed
if this shows up as part of that last thing i wrote i didn't mean it to be part of that but something seperate.
i just had a
moment and i think i've been caught in the middle of some histories i've got no clue about.
that "high functioning" comment took a minute to catch up to all the innuendo with other similar things that have been said around here, well
.
so i'll back the f out of this sandtrap and let it go. so sorry to have wasted so much of everybody's time.
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waysider
"Most forums don't like users bumping threads."
I don't think you need to worry about that here.
We bump threads on a routine basis.
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doojable
Brainfixed, I'm not sure if you'll ever read this - but you have totally misread my comments. Totally gotten me wrong.
I'm not sure how or why - but you seem to have the distinct knack to come up with an interpretation of my words that is 180 degrees different from what I mean, and you do so consistently. I don't know what to say or do to make myself much clearer - but you should consider how frustrated you get when people misinterpret your words and realize that you do the same.
While you may be working through your life, please remember that there are others here that are also working through their own stuff.
I hope you find what you're searching for...
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brainfixed
oh i'm not doing a disappearing act or anything but i'm just done with a discussion that was boggling my mind and i think i realized why, but i don't want to know one way or the other. but anyway, yah, i probably have misread a whole lot in this discussion because i'm thinking the discussion is about one thing and now i'm realizing there's a lot of little "one things" i either don't understand, don't know about, haven't read about yet or something. but that's ok because i really do not want to be "in the know" that deeply around here.
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