oh, and someone said something along the lines, "why are you blaming US" for this person ?
why is there even an US ?
i felt empathy. is that so bad ?
i remembered this place and how much it helped me
read the STUPID OPENING POST and see how accusatory i was to US
your answers are more revealing than you even realize
you drive me CRAZY with your research and posting skills
and if i'm the cultist in my head because of what i'm saying, OKAY. i guess i never got healed here, but thank god because i was never promised that
and now i can doubt my own friggin voice
No you didn't really make any accusations in your first post. However, you have more than made up for that in your latest posts.
Just a thought here...
If I remember correctly, you were on Trancechat and Waydale before there even was a GSC. I've been told that Trancechat was a "gloves off" "anything goes" kind of place. You stuck around through that forum and through Waydale. The point is YOU STUCK AROUND. Whatever voice you found, you found because you didn't run off and hide when things got rough.
On the other hand, there is no cookie cutter answer that says that just because participating in this site helped anyone that it will help the next person. This place may not be the same that it was seven years ago. Then again, how many people do you know that are the same way they were seven years ago? What can you say is unchanged in the past seven years? Okay - those of us with kids can say we loved them then and we still love them now - but even those relationships have gone through changes.
I would like to know (not by name-) who the person in question is and why she felt she could not find her voice here. However, I'm much more concerned that that person find their voice somewhere - the location doesn't matter.
hey TZ, someone posted about physical, mental, sexual abuse of children
and they get a THESIS
i don't care if you are right because i could not be bothered to read
1.
2.
3.
4.
5.
6.
7.
yah and it's called "detachment" and it's a way of keeping a person from having to actually cope with reality, which is why i said it wasn't the phrasing but the mentality because it's so the way international all over again and again and again.
yah and it's called "detachment" and it's a way of keeping a person from having to actually cope with reality, which is why i said it wasn't the phrasing but the mentality because it's so the way international all over again and again and again.
From Wikipedia:
Emotional detachment, in psychology, can mean two different things. In the first meaning, it refers to an inability to connect with others emotionally, as well as a means of dealing with anxiety by preventing certain situations that trigger it; it is often described as "emotional numbing" or dissociation, Depersonalization or in its chronic form Depersonalization disorder. In the second sense, it is a type of mental assertiveness that allows people to maintain their boundaries and psychic integrity when faced with the emotional demands of another person or group of persons. These senses are within the framework of psychology and academia, not those of everyone else in the world.
Isn't detachment a defense mechanism that helps a person to protect himself (herself) rather than to misdirect others? If the above definition is correct, the second definition could be a good thing.
I think sometimes people can give a false impression of being detached if they have a tendency to explain things in too much detail. It's something I personally struggle with constantly when I'm dealing with customers. I have to keep telling myself, "Keep it simple. Keep it simple-----"
No you didn't really make any accusations in your first post. However, you have more than made up for that in your latest posts.
Just a thought here...
If I remember correctly, you were on Trancechat and Waydale before there even was a GSC. I've been told that Trancechat was a "gloves off" "anything goes" kind of place. You stuck around through that forum and through Waydale. The point is YOU STUCK AROUND. Whatever voice you found, you found because you didn't run off and hide when things got rough.
On the other hand, there is no cookie cutter answer that says that just because participating in this site helped anyone that it will help the next person. This place may not be the same that it was seven years ago. Then again, how many people do you know that are the same way they were seven years ago? What can you say is unchanged in the past seven years? Okay - those of us with kids can say we loved them then and we still love them now - but even those relationships have gone through changes.
I would like to know (not by name-) who the person in question is and why she felt she could not find her voice here. However, I'm much more concerned that that person find their voice somewhere - the location doesn't matter.
ok what i'm seeing in ex's words are not accusations or unreasonable expectations, but quite normal reactions of those that have survived such things to what appears to be people glossing over the real underbelly of the way international, and for that matter, what really makes something a cult instead of just another whacked out religion.
and that's what doesn't get discussed much either here or anywhere else unless it breaks down into some sort of fight or "let us fix you" or "grow up and move on with your life" lecturing. and i'll tell you it's not helpful to just get all the touchy feely pats on the back "support" saying "that was wrong and it should have never happened and it wasn't your fault and it wouldn't have happened on MY watch because I would have been the big hero and would have punched the sob out and wouldn't have cared what leadership said and would have left the way international right then and there if they DARED to try to make ME accept a pervert in MY twig or running MY children's fellowship!"
and you know why that doesn't help at all? because it's a bunch of b.s. because the way international did it, did it all the time, did it often, covered it up with the help of regular janes and joes like people here whether anybody realized it or not and did it for decades.
and so when people that survived that crapola talk about it and it gets glossed over with what ex so aptly called a 1.2.3.4. thesis or somebody says "i never saw it or heard about it and if i had of i would have done something about it but now that you're here it's time for you to grow up and get over it" well, you know that's just another form of the crapola.
so what would be helpful? for one just stop trying to help because there really is no help that anyone can provide because this is something only professionals or ourselves can help, and professionals really can't do all that much really. for another thing recognize that this is permanent damage. it's not like a broken bone that will heal or a cut that just leaves a little scar or even like having your tonsils out and another body part will cover what the tonsils did. this changed how the brain functions, how the understanding functions, how the body functions and how the emotions function. if it happened as a child it changed how the child developed completely and in every way including motor skills, reasoning skills, problem solving skills, bone development, brain development, reproductive development (and more and more it's being realized that it's not just "growth hormones in meat" that is causing children to go into puberty earlier and earlier, but that a whole lot of it can be explained by childhood sexual abuse, but that's not a "popular" thing to expose it's also not a popular result to find in studies if you want to get funded for your next study), and is even at the root of many learning disabilities for far too many children. another thing that can be done is let people have their anger over it all. this is something to be really mad about! it messes people up and it messes people up for a long, long time! if you don't like to think that it does, or if you don't think it should and you want to say so then remember that saying so is a two-way street because taking somebody's ability to say so was one of the worst things that was taken from us so let us say so if we want to, ok? and then remember that it's scary as hell.
From Wikipedia:
Isn't detachment a defense mechanism that helps to protect himself (herself) rather than to misdirect others? If the above definition is correct, the second definition could be a good thing.
the second definition could be a good thing of course.
Speaking only for myself here:
I think sometimes people can give a false impression of being detached if they have a tendency to explain things in too much detail. It's something I personally struggle with constantly when I'm dealing with customers. I have to keep telling myself, "Keep it simple. Keep it simple-----"
yah and it's called "detachment" and it's a way of keeping a person from having to actually cope with reality, which is why i said it wasn't the phrasing but the mentality because it's so the way international all over again and again and again.
A month ago I asked Paw to remove my account from the site. Everyone has feelings and from time to time and they can get really hurt by others. I am glad he didn't remove the account, but gave me the space to step back and gain some perspective.
While I am ill equipped emotionally or mentally to run this site or anything remotely like it. . . . . we do have someone amazingly able who is equipped and responsible.
No one is forcing him to provide a place for ex-twi to discuss or meet. It is done out of a sense of purpose and responsibility. A thank-you seems appropriate and a bit of understanding in order.
When someone gives me a gift. . . .I don't run around complaining about it. . . I either use it or I don't. . . .if I can't accept it graciously that speaks to me. . . . not the one who sacrificed to provide it.
That being said.
______________________________
I think at times you do need a thick skin to post here. . . or you need to grow one. It also helps to be able to hold your own intellectually and to formulate coherent responses on this forum. But, that is true just about everywhere in life. . . .except of course in TWI. . . . where being a bully got you noticed.
If that is a frustrating concept. . . .life must get pretty difficult. However, people also respond to genuine heartfelt communication. . . . even one laced with grammatical error and spelling mistakes.
Some people even respond to those who express pain. . . and if they offer advice or counsel it seems a normal reaction. . . . not some throwback to cult think. If a person approaches me with a problem. . . . reveals a hurt. . . . has an issue. . . . my human response is to reach out and try to help.
I can only help with the benefit of my own experience. I don't have to be a trained professional to respond in conversation. People deal with each other all the time on deeply human levels. Some shared experiences are unique. TWI is one of those unique shared experiences. Discussion a result of being on this forum.
We don't have to accept someone's perspective. However, lashing out or responding with insults just perpetuates what the complaint about the site seems to be.. . . . a lack of compassion.
Why bring something up for conversation if that is not what you want? If you want to rant. . . .rant. . . . or start a blog. . . Pawtucket even provided that option. Don't be taken aback when someone responds.
Some people refuse to enable others to behave in certain ways. Thank-goodness.. . . but, is that really not being compassionate? I don't think so. . . . but it can be frustrating for the person acting out.. . . and looking for validation.
Rumrunner spoke up at the start of this thread. . . . got his head handed to him. . . . the drama that followed his post. . . . really amazed me. When he gracefully tried to calm the situation. . . . wham. . . more was piled on. . . . his point was lost and he left the thread. Who can blame him. He doesn't seem to be an enabler.
Some people just like to start trouble and keep it going. The twin to this thread is in the Soap Opera forum. Same thing. . . . new rehash.
If there are issues.. . .be specific. . . articulate your needs. . . . reach out to this community and have a little faith in peoples responses, but it can't be some cryptic accusation with mysterious undercurrents of distant history that no one really gets.
I am left to guess whose voice is lost. . . make assumptions and try to figure it all out. . . . just leads to speculation on my part.
so what would be helpful? for one just stop trying to help because there really is no help that anyone can provide because this is something only professionals or ourselves can help, and professionals really can't do all that much really. for another thing recognize that this is permanent damage. it's not like a broken bone that will heal or a cut that just leaves a little scar or even like having your tonsils out and another body part will cover what the tonsils did. this changed how the brain functions, how the understanding functions, how the body functions and how the emotions function. if it happened as a child it changed how the child developed completely and in every way including motor skills, reasoning skills, problem solving skills, bone development, brain development, reproductive development (and more and more it's being realized that it's not just "growth hormones in meat" that is causing children to go into puberty earlier and earlier, but that a whole lot of it can be explained by childhood sexual abuse, but that's not a "popular" thing to expose it's also not a popular result to find in studies if you want to get funded for your next study), and is even at the root of many learning disabilities for far too many children. another thing that can be done is let people have their anger over it all. this is something to be really mad about! it messes people up and it messes people up for a long, long time! if you don't like to think that it does, or if you don't think it should and you want to say so then remember that saying so is a two-way street because taking somebody's ability to say so was one of the worst things that was taken from us so let us say so if we want to, ok? and then remember that it's scary as hell.
A month ago I asked Paw to remove my account from the site. Everyone has feelings and from time to time and they can get really hurt by others. I am glad he didn't remove the account, but gave me the space to step back and gain some perspective.
While I am ill equipped emotionally or mentally to run this site or anything remotely like it. . . . . we do have someone amazingly able who is equipped and responsible.
No one is forcing him to provide a place for ex-twi to discuss or meet. It is done out of a sense of purpose and responsibility. A thank-you seems appropriate and a bit of understanding in order.
When someone gives me a gift. . . .I don't run around complaining about it. . . I either use it or I don't. . . .if I can't accept it graciously that speaks to me. . . . not the one who sacrificed to provide it.
That being said.
______________________________
I think at times you do need a thick skin to post here. . . or you need to grow one. It also helps to be able to hold your own intellectually and to formulate coherent responses on this forum. But, that is true just about everywhere in life. . . .except of course in TWI. . . . where being a bully got you noticed.
If that is a frustrating concept. . . .life must get pretty difficult. However, people also respond to genuine heartfelt communication. . . . even one laced with grammatical error and spelling mistakes.
Some people even respond to those who express pain. . . and if they offer advice or counsel it seems a normal reaction. . . . not some throwback to cult think. If a person approaches me with a problem. . . . reveals a hurt. . . . has an issue. . . . my human response is to reach out and try to help.
I can only help with the benefit of my own experience. I don't have to be a trained professional to respond in conversation. People deal with each other all the time on deeply human levels. Some shared experiences are unique. TWI is one of those unique shared experiences. Discussion a result of being on this forum.
We don't have to accept someone's perspective. However, lashing out or responding with insults just perpetuates what the complaint about the site seems to be.. . . . a lack of compassion.
Why bring something up for conversation if that is not what you want? If you want to rant. . . .rant. . . . or start a blog. . . Pawtucket even provided that option. Don't be taken aback when someone responds.
Some people refuse to enable others to behave in certain ways. Thank-goodness.. . . but, is that really not being compassionate? I don't think so. . . . but it can be frustrating for the person acting out.. . . and looking for validation.
Rumrunner spoke up at the start of this thread. . . . got his head handed to him. . . . the drama that followed his post. . . . really amazed me. When he gracefully tried to calm the situation. . . . wham. . . more was piled on. . . . his point was lost and he left the thread. Who can blame him. He doesn't seem to be an enabler.
Some people just like to start trouble and keep it going. The twin to this thread is in the Soap Opera forum. Same thing. . . . new rehash.
If there are issues.. . .be specific. . . articulate your needs. . . . reach out to this community and have a little faith in peoples responses, but it can't be some cryptic accusation with mysterious undercurrents of distant history that no one really gets.
I am left to guess whose voice is lost. . . make assumptions and try to figure it all out. . . . just leads to speculation on my part.
there's something i'm not understanding here and that's the concept of this place being a "gift" to me because if something is a "gift" to me, then what i do with it is no longer the business of the person that gave it to me, but the owner of this site has rules and has the authority to enforce those rules as her or she sees fits. and being thankful for a gift is one thing anyway but being beholden to somebody for a "gift" makes it not a gift anymore but a control issue.
and something else i'm not understanding either is the backhanded insults laced around in here about trying to formulate "coherent" responses and the grammar and the spelling and the whole rumrunner writings where he offered ex to buy a used motorcoach and you want him to stand out as an example of someone trying to "gracefully" trying to "calm the situation" and your interpretation of this as not being someone making assumptions?
and speaking of "mysterious undercurrents of distant history that no one really gets" what about the little diddy that seems to always be brought up about the "other sites" somebody is at or has been at like the ones rumrunner brought up or doojable brought up? i don't get those "mysterious undercurrents of distant history" or even if they're distant or current or whatever or even if they have any point in this discussion or not because i don't even know what they are to begin with.
and something else i don't get is what world people live in where a "thick skin" is an expected "normal"? i know one thing and that is if people in the world i live in acted even a little bit like towards one another the way they act around here they'd get fired or brought to court or even punched in the nose. try going to a grocery store some day and stepping up to the butthole giving the clerk a hard time and telling her to put on her "big girl panties" and see how much "discussion" ensues, or try telling the boss to "formulate coherent thoughts" when he's ranting off and see how your next promotion goes, or try offering a co-worker a "used motorcoach" after finding out she was raped on one and see if you aren't brought up on sexual harassment charges.
you're welcome and thanks for listening. and btw i did some of that "good" detachment in there when i said things like "if it happened as a child" where i had to detach from my experiences to get it out. i can and do learn. :)
I didn't know it was the charter of GSC to be helpful. I think that being helpful was from the BASIC (not WAY driven) goodness of people's own hearts. I believe - if I can still read English - the mission is to tell the other side of the story. While I certainly wish no harm on newbies who have (perhaps...and often fabricated) trauma of their own... simple facts are that GSC is not a certified psychological "help site." Just a bunch of folks telling the "other side of the story."
Excie - perhaps you should go back to the JW site where you have been trashing GSC as well as Pawtucket by his real name. It has not been missed by several here on GSC. Pawtucket gave you safe haven and you have endeavored to trash him on the net. Wanna buy a used motor coach too?
Is that what I was referencing or just what you are highlighting for your purpose?
you didn't say what you were referencing except "Rumrunner spoke up at the start of this thread." and that was what he wrote "at the start of this thread" so what's a girl to figure?
you didn't say what you were referencing except "Rumrunner spoke up at the start of this thread." and that was what he wrote "at the start of this thread" so what's a girl to figure?
and i'll edit to add what about what else i said?
Well, his point was not about a used motor coach and I referenced his point, I am sorry if that was unclear. As to the rest of what you said. . . . that is your perspective and I don't really relate to it. It is not that I don't respect your right to it. . . . I do, but, there is not much in there I accept.
The point about gift to control to me seems a leap and is not one I make here or even see . . . . so to me it is a moot point.
I was not being insulting when I mentioned grammar or spelling. . . . . reading my posts you must have picked up on the fact I eschew punctuation, go out of my way to begin a sentence with "but" and my spelling skills are often in question. I was at one time educated in the UK so it can be anyone's guess. Surprize. . . surprise. . . aeroplane. . . airplane. . . mum. . . mom.
All depends.
My point was actually that you don't need a post-grad degree to post here. . . . or debate skills. . . . people respond to heartfelt communication. This was in response to some frustration I have sensed in excathedra's posts.
I never mentioned Mod-chat. . . . when I spoke of the cryptic nature of posts it was in reference to to ex's initial post about someone having a difficult time finding their voice and GSC not being helpful. I think I know what she is talking about, but it is unclear.
As for the world we live in and growing a thick skin. . . . in my world it is a must. If you don't have to have a thick skin where you dwell. . . . great. But, this isn't the grocery store or employment. . . it is a discussion forum populated by ex-cultists. Some with agenda's . . . . some with anger. . . . and many who speak their minds. Doesn't help to take it too personally.
it is hard for me to find "valid" points in what someone says when they end it with something so obviously vindictive and scathing and meant to harm and incite and control as "Wanna buy a used motor coach too?" because that in fact is called passive-aggressive when it is discussed in therapy as applied to an abuser. but i'm not calling rumrunner an abuser. but i am saying that i have my radar on "high" looking out for such things like this around here because the one thing the way international did in fact teach people was to be abusers and the way international teaches people to start off as passive-aggressive abusers, and the passive-aggressive stuff is usually the hardest stuff to catch onto because it's always laced with such "well intentioned" "good" stuff. but i will say there was nothing "well intentioned" and "good" about that one liner, and i highly suspect everything that came before was said just building up to that one liner because anybody can literally see the buildup in that particular piece of writing if they're willing. so i guess that means that i disagree about his true point when looking at the whole of what he wrote, so i guess that also means i still don't understand how you consider that as an example of trying to calm things down because it was so obviously incendiary (omg i had to look that up! lol) from the moment he started addressing "Excie" directly.
well, the whole "gift" concept eludes most people in the world and usually takes therapy (trying to be funny here) to understand that when you give somebody something, you no longer have any say about what happens to the "gift" or even if the person needs to appreciate it because if it truly is a "gift" then the whole purpose is to express your feelings, not expect something in return, even if it is just a thank you or taking care of what you gave. word of warning, though, if somebody gives you a gift and you feel like you owe them something in return, or they make you feel like you do, give it back and be done with the whole thing because it won't be worth it.
ok, i'll accept that you weren't being insulting about the grammar and spelling.
you did say "I think at times you do need a thick skin to post here. . . or you need to grow one. It also helps to be able to hold your own intellectually and to formulate coherent responses on this forum. But, that is true just about everywhere in life" and i figured there were two places that would count for "everywhere in life" for most people and that was work and the grocery store and so i took how people acted around here into those places to see what it would look like. for you to now say "But, this isn't the grocery store or employment. . . it is a discussion forum populated by ex-cultists." is doing a run around on your own argument.
you don't accept what i have to say. i don't accept what you have to say. it's great that we have a place to do that without "being out from under the hedge of protection", isn't it?
Perhaps gift isn't the right word. You have free access to a place with rules. Like a youth center: somebody else pays for it, and you can use it, but you have to follow the rules. Better?
it is hard for me to find "valid" points in what someone says when they end it with something so obviously vindictive and scathing and meant to harm and incite and control as "Wanna buy a used motor coach too?" because that in fact is called passive-aggressive when it is discussed in therapy as applied to an abuser. but i'm not calling rumrunner an abuser. but i am saying that i have my radar on "high" looking out for such things like this around here because the one thing the way international did in fact teach people was to be abusers and the way international teaches people to start off as passive-aggressive abusers, and the passive-aggressive stuff is usually the hardest stuff to catch onto because it's always laced with such "well intentioned" "good" stuff. but i will say there was nothing "well intentioned" and "good" about that one liner, and i highly suspect everything that came before was said just building up to that one liner because anybody can literally see the buildup in that particular piece of writing if they're willing. so i guess that means that i disagree about his true point when looking at the whole of what he wrote, so i guess that also means i still don't understand how you consider that as an example of trying to calm things down because it was so obviously incendiary (omg i had to look that up! lol) from the moment he started addressing "Excie" directly.
well, the whole "gift" concept eludes most people in the world and usually takes therapy (trying to be funny here) to understand that when you give somebody something, you no longer have any say about what happens to the "gift" or even if the person needs to appreciate it because if it truly is a "gift" then the whole purpose is to express your feelings, not expect something in return, even if it is just a thank you or taking care of what you gave. word of warning, though, if somebody gives you a gift and you feel like you owe them something in return, or they make you feel like you do, give it back and be done with the whole thing because it won't be worth it.
ok, i'll accept that you weren't being insulting about the grammar and spelling.
you did say "I think at times you do need a thick skin to post here. . . or you need to grow one. It also helps to be able to hold your own intellectually and to formulate coherent responses on this forum. But, that is true just about everywhere in life" and i figured there were two places that would count for "everywhere in life" for most people and that was work and the grocery store and so i took how people acted around here into those places to see what it would look like. for you to now say "But, this isn't the grocery store or employment. . . it is a discussion forum populated by ex-cultists." is doing a run around on your own argument.
you don't accept what i have to say. i don't accept what you have to say. it's great that we have a place to do that without "being out from under the hedge of protection", isn't it?
Nearly to the Soap Opera forum. :)
I think we may just read things differently. Here is the way I read his comment. . . . as a culmination of disgust with Excathedra's perceived betrayal of trust toward a friend(Paw) who has offered nothing but support and help. Wanna buy a motor coach and make your betrayal complete? A motor coach being the symbol of betrayal among the natives.
Not really as sinister as you seem to believe. My take anyway. Seems there was a clear boundry on how you do and do not treat someone who has been a real friend.
Poor choice of an example, but I don't think it qualifies him for flogging. I thought he backtracked well, for the sake of peace. . . and I do think he genuinely cares for excathedra. . . . again . . . just my take.
We can surely use a different word than gift as I was sadly unaware of all the rules surrounding the giving and receiving of gifts. Although, I do think appreciation is not misplaced when someone freely offers us a place to speak our mind.
Our focus is just different Brainfixed. We look at things from different angles.
oh boy i'm not even going to try to do the quote thing so that everybody knows what person i'm responding to so i'm just going to say who i'm responding to because i'm just not that talented ok?
tzaia you keep trying to moot my points and i wonder if you're meaning to say my points are "of little or no practical value or meaning"? because whether you like it or not some of the points i make that you try to moot had meaning to us all at one time or another and still have meaning to many people that read here and are still in the way international and still think way international thoughts and wonder how we survive outside of the way international. but then again it could be that you're using the first definition of moot saying that my points are " open to discussion or debate", in which case it would be great if you followed up your mooting with discussion or debate so that we all may be enlightened.
lol george, that's pretty much really what it is like here, isn't it? lol
geisha there's a whole dynamic that is being ignored when making such a statement that i truly hope isn't a dynamic that anybody here is wanting to say thrives here, and that is that the owner of this site has set himself up as some sort of father figure that lulls people into trusting him with their very lives as an answer from god. the whole motorcoach thing was never about friendship and caring about anybody. the correlation cannot even be made here unless anyone wants to set up the owner of this site as the same type of perpetrator as the owner of the motorcoach, and the participants of this site as the same type of followers, and the purpose of this site as the same type of cult. do you seriously equate being drugged and raped to being dissed on a website? if so, then you and i don't just look at things from different angles, you and i are worlds apart.
as for the whole "rules surrounding the giving and receiving of gifts" it's something people don't pay enough attention to and it's something that gets people into problems in interpersonal relationships before they even know what's hit them. how gifts are given and received are at the base of how relationships are built or torn apart and for some reason people tend to think that if they give somebody something then they have also bought into that person's life a little bit in that there is now an expectation about what happens with that gift even if it's just getting a thank you for the gift or a displaying of the gift or a taking care of the gift. i can't believe you were in the way international and missed the whole thing about gift giving in the etiquette lessons? maybe i got them because my brother and my sister were corps? i don't know but there were reams of paper with rules and rules and rules about gifts that were really about how to control people with gifts. anyway i really did have to get therapy to unlearn that crap and to find out that the way international didn't have a corner on the control people with gifts market.
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pawtucket
No one likes being trashed. The trashing that goes on at other sites is going to happen. As Linda explained so well, I am going to be an object of criticism. It is an unfortunate side effect of the ty
RumRunner
I didn't know it was the charter of GSC to be helpful. I think that being helpful was from the BASIC (not WAY driven) goodness of people's own hearts. I believe - if I can still read English - the mis
excathedra
it took me YEARS to even TRY TO express what happened to me in the way, and i'm fairly certain it's "old news" to most people here i talked to someone today who was in for almost 30 years and out les
excathedra
hey TZ, someone posted about physical, mental, sexual abuse of children
and they get a THESIS
i don't care if you are right because i could not be bothered to read
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doojable
How loving...
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excathedra
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Tzaia
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doojable
No you didn't really make any accusations in your first post. However, you have more than made up for that in your latest posts.
Just a thought here...
If I remember correctly, you were on Trancechat and Waydale before there even was a GSC. I've been told that Trancechat was a "gloves off" "anything goes" kind of place. You stuck around through that forum and through Waydale. The point is YOU STUCK AROUND. Whatever voice you found, you found because you didn't run off and hide when things got rough.
On the other hand, there is no cookie cutter answer that says that just because participating in this site helped anyone that it will help the next person. This place may not be the same that it was seven years ago. Then again, how many people do you know that are the same way they were seven years ago? What can you say is unchanged in the past seven years? Okay - those of us with kids can say we loved them then and we still love them now - but even those relationships have gone through changes.
I would like to know (not by name-) who the person in question is and why she felt she could not find her voice here. However, I'm much more concerned that that person find their voice somewhere - the location doesn't matter.
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brainfixed
yah and it's called "detachment" and it's a way of keeping a person from having to actually cope with reality, which is why i said it wasn't the phrasing but the mentality because it's so the way international all over again and again and again.
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doojable
From Wikipedia:
Isn't detachment a defense mechanism that helps a person to protect himself (herself) rather than to misdirect others? If the above definition is correct, the second definition could be a good thing.
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waysider
Speaking only for myself here:
I think sometimes people can give a false impression of being detached if they have a tendency to explain things in too much detail. It's something I personally struggle with constantly when I'm dealing with customers. I have to keep telling myself, "Keep it simple. Keep it simple-----"
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brainfixed
ok what i'm seeing in ex's words are not accusations or unreasonable expectations, but quite normal reactions of those that have survived such things to what appears to be people glossing over the real underbelly of the way international, and for that matter, what really makes something a cult instead of just another whacked out religion.
and that's what doesn't get discussed much either here or anywhere else unless it breaks down into some sort of fight or "let us fix you" or "grow up and move on with your life" lecturing. and i'll tell you it's not helpful to just get all the touchy feely pats on the back "support" saying "that was wrong and it should have never happened and it wasn't your fault and it wouldn't have happened on MY watch because I would have been the big hero and would have punched the sob out and wouldn't have cared what leadership said and would have left the way international right then and there if they DARED to try to make ME accept a pervert in MY twig or running MY children's fellowship!"
and you know why that doesn't help at all? because it's a bunch of b.s. because the way international did it, did it all the time, did it often, covered it up with the help of regular janes and joes like people here whether anybody realized it or not and did it for decades.
and so when people that survived that crapola talk about it and it gets glossed over with what ex so aptly called a 1.2.3.4. thesis or somebody says "i never saw it or heard about it and if i had of i would have done something about it but now that you're here it's time for you to grow up and get over it" well, you know that's just another form of the crapola.
so what would be helpful? for one just stop trying to help because there really is no help that anyone can provide because this is something only professionals or ourselves can help, and professionals really can't do all that much really. for another thing recognize that this is permanent damage. it's not like a broken bone that will heal or a cut that just leaves a little scar or even like having your tonsils out and another body part will cover what the tonsils did. this changed how the brain functions, how the understanding functions, how the body functions and how the emotions function. if it happened as a child it changed how the child developed completely and in every way including motor skills, reasoning skills, problem solving skills, bone development, brain development, reproductive development (and more and more it's being realized that it's not just "growth hormones in meat" that is causing children to go into puberty earlier and earlier, but that a whole lot of it can be explained by childhood sexual abuse, but that's not a "popular" thing to expose it's also not a popular result to find in studies if you want to get funded for your next study), and is even at the root of many learning disabilities for far too many children. another thing that can be done is let people have their anger over it all. this is something to be really mad about! it messes people up and it messes people up for a long, long time! if you don't like to think that it does, or if you don't think it should and you want to say so then remember that saying so is a two-way street because taking somebody's ability to say so was one of the worst things that was taken from us so let us say so if we want to, ok? and then remember that it's scary as hell.
the second definition could be a good thing of course.
something i hadn't thought about, thanks.
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Tzaia
What reality do you think I'm not coping with?
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geisha779
A month ago I asked Paw to remove my account from the site. Everyone has feelings and from time to time and they can get really hurt by others. I am glad he didn't remove the account, but gave me the space to step back and gain some perspective.
While I am ill equipped emotionally or mentally to run this site or anything remotely like it. . . . . we do have someone amazingly able who is equipped and responsible.
No one is forcing him to provide a place for ex-twi to discuss or meet. It is done out of a sense of purpose and responsibility. A thank-you seems appropriate and a bit of understanding in order.
When someone gives me a gift. . . .I don't run around complaining about it. . . I either use it or I don't. . . .if I can't accept it graciously that speaks to me. . . . not the one who sacrificed to provide it.
That being said.
______________________________
I think at times you do need a thick skin to post here. . . or you need to grow one. It also helps to be able to hold your own intellectually and to formulate coherent responses on this forum. But, that is true just about everywhere in life. . . .except of course in TWI. . . . where being a bully got you noticed.
If that is a frustrating concept. . . .life must get pretty difficult. However, people also respond to genuine heartfelt communication. . . . even one laced with grammatical error and spelling mistakes.
Some people even respond to those who express pain. . . and if they offer advice or counsel it seems a normal reaction. . . . not some throwback to cult think. If a person approaches me with a problem. . . . reveals a hurt. . . . has an issue. . . . my human response is to reach out and try to help.
I can only help with the benefit of my own experience. I don't have to be a trained professional to respond in conversation. People deal with each other all the time on deeply human levels. Some shared experiences are unique. TWI is one of those unique shared experiences. Discussion a result of being on this forum.
We don't have to accept someone's perspective. However, lashing out or responding with insults just perpetuates what the complaint about the site seems to be.. . . . a lack of compassion.
Why bring something up for conversation if that is not what you want? If you want to rant. . . .rant. . . . or start a blog. . . Pawtucket even provided that option. Don't be taken aback when someone responds.
Some people refuse to enable others to behave in certain ways. Thank-goodness.. . . but, is that really not being compassionate? I don't think so. . . . but it can be frustrating for the person acting out.. . . and looking for validation.
Rumrunner spoke up at the start of this thread. . . . got his head handed to him. . . . the drama that followed his post. . . . really amazed me. When he gracefully tried to calm the situation. . . . wham. . . more was piled on. . . . his point was lost and he left the thread. Who can blame him. He doesn't seem to be an enabler.
Some people just like to start trouble and keep it going. The twin to this thread is in the Soap Opera forum. Same thing. . . . new rehash.
If there are issues.. . .be specific. . . articulate your needs. . . . reach out to this community and have a little faith in peoples responses, but it can't be some cryptic accusation with mysterious undercurrents of distant history that no one really gets.
I am left to guess whose voice is lost. . . make assumptions and try to figure it all out. . . . just leads to speculation on my part.
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doojable
Thanks for this insight.
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brainfixed
there's something i'm not understanding here and that's the concept of this place being a "gift" to me because if something is a "gift" to me, then what i do with it is no longer the business of the person that gave it to me, but the owner of this site has rules and has the authority to enforce those rules as her or she sees fits. and being thankful for a gift is one thing anyway but being beholden to somebody for a "gift" makes it not a gift anymore but a control issue.
and something else i'm not understanding either is the backhanded insults laced around in here about trying to formulate "coherent" responses and the grammar and the spelling and the whole rumrunner writings where he offered ex to buy a used motorcoach and you want him to stand out as an example of someone trying to "gracefully" trying to "calm the situation" and your interpretation of this as not being someone making assumptions?
and speaking of "mysterious undercurrents of distant history that no one really gets" what about the little diddy that seems to always be brought up about the "other sites" somebody is at or has been at like the ones rumrunner brought up or doojable brought up? i don't get those "mysterious undercurrents of distant history" or even if they're distant or current or whatever or even if they have any point in this discussion or not because i don't even know what they are to begin with.
and something else i don't get is what world people live in where a "thick skin" is an expected "normal"? i know one thing and that is if people in the world i live in acted even a little bit like towards one another the way they act around here they'd get fired or brought to court or even punched in the nose. try going to a grocery store some day and stepping up to the butthole giving the clerk a hard time and telling her to put on her "big girl panties" and see how much "discussion" ensues, or try telling the boss to "formulate coherent thoughts" when he's ranting off and see how your next promotion goes, or try offering a co-worker a "used motorcoach" after finding out she was raped on one and see if you aren't brought up on sexual harassment charges.
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brainfixed
you're welcome and thanks for listening. and btw i did some of that "good" detachment in there when i said things like "if it happened as a child" where i had to detach from my experiences to get it out. i can and do learn. :)
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brainfixed
i put in the bolding to make sure it was seen.
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geisha779
Is that what I was referencing or just what you are highlighting for your purpose?
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brainfixed
you didn't say what you were referencing except "Rumrunner spoke up at the start of this thread." and that was what he wrote "at the start of this thread" so what's a girl to figure?
and i'll edit to add what about what else i said?
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geisha779
Well, his point was not about a used motor coach and I referenced his point, I am sorry if that was unclear. As to the rest of what you said. . . . that is your perspective and I don't really relate to it. It is not that I don't respect your right to it. . . . I do, but, there is not much in there I accept.
The point about gift to control to me seems a leap and is not one I make here or even see . . . . so to me it is a moot point.
I was not being insulting when I mentioned grammar or spelling. . . . . reading my posts you must have picked up on the fact I eschew punctuation, go out of my way to begin a sentence with "but" and my spelling skills are often in question. I was at one time educated in the UK so it can be anyone's guess. Surprize. . . surprise. . . aeroplane. . . airplane. . . mum. . . mom.
All depends.
My point was actually that you don't need a post-grad degree to post here. . . . or debate skills. . . . people respond to heartfelt communication. This was in response to some frustration I have sensed in excathedra's posts.
I never mentioned Mod-chat. . . . when I spoke of the cryptic nature of posts it was in reference to to ex's initial post about someone having a difficult time finding their voice and GSC not being helpful. I think I know what she is talking about, but it is unclear.
As for the world we live in and growing a thick skin. . . . in my world it is a must. If you don't have to have a thick skin where you dwell. . . . great. But, this isn't the grocery store or employment. . . it is a discussion forum populated by ex-cultists. Some with agenda's . . . . some with anger. . . . and many who speak their minds. Doesn't help to take it too personally.
Hope that clarifies.
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brainfixed
it is hard for me to find "valid" points in what someone says when they end it with something so obviously vindictive and scathing and meant to harm and incite and control as "Wanna buy a used motor coach too?" because that in fact is called passive-aggressive when it is discussed in therapy as applied to an abuser. but i'm not calling rumrunner an abuser. but i am saying that i have my radar on "high" looking out for such things like this around here because the one thing the way international did in fact teach people was to be abusers and the way international teaches people to start off as passive-aggressive abusers, and the passive-aggressive stuff is usually the hardest stuff to catch onto because it's always laced with such "well intentioned" "good" stuff. but i will say there was nothing "well intentioned" and "good" about that one liner, and i highly suspect everything that came before was said just building up to that one liner because anybody can literally see the buildup in that particular piece of writing if they're willing. so i guess that means that i disagree about his true point when looking at the whole of what he wrote, so i guess that also means i still don't understand how you consider that as an example of trying to calm things down because it was so obviously incendiary (omg i had to look that up! lol) from the moment he started addressing "Excie" directly.
well, the whole "gift" concept eludes most people in the world and usually takes therapy (trying to be funny here) to understand that when you give somebody something, you no longer have any say about what happens to the "gift" or even if the person needs to appreciate it because if it truly is a "gift" then the whole purpose is to express your feelings, not expect something in return, even if it is just a thank you or taking care of what you gave. word of warning, though, if somebody gives you a gift and you feel like you owe them something in return, or they make you feel like you do, give it back and be done with the whole thing because it won't be worth it.
ok, i'll accept that you weren't being insulting about the grammar and spelling.
you did say "I think at times you do need a thick skin to post here. . . or you need to grow one. It also helps to be able to hold your own intellectually and to formulate coherent responses on this forum. But, that is true just about everywhere in life" and i figured there were two places that would count for "everywhere in life" for most people and that was work and the grocery store and so i took how people acted around here into those places to see what it would look like. for you to now say "But, this isn't the grocery store or employment. . . it is a discussion forum populated by ex-cultists." is doing a run around on your own argument.
you don't accept what i have to say. i don't accept what you have to say. it's great that we have a place to do that without "being out from under the hedge of protection", isn't it?
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Tzaia
...which is a moot point once you get there never was a "hedge of protection."
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GeorgeStGeorge
Perhaps gift isn't the right word. You have free access to a place with rules. Like a youth center: somebody else pays for it, and you can use it, but you have to follow the rules. Better?
George
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Modgellan
I moved this from "About the Way" since in spite of it's title it has little or nothing to do with TWI and is more about interactions at GSC.
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geisha779
Nearly to the Soap Opera forum. :)
I think we may just read things differently. Here is the way I read his comment. . . . as a culmination of disgust with Excathedra's perceived betrayal of trust toward a friend(Paw) who has offered nothing but support and help. Wanna buy a motor coach and make your betrayal complete? A motor coach being the symbol of betrayal among the natives.
Not really as sinister as you seem to believe. My take anyway. Seems there was a clear boundry on how you do and do not treat someone who has been a real friend.
Poor choice of an example, but I don't think it qualifies him for flogging. I thought he backtracked well, for the sake of peace. . . and I do think he genuinely cares for excathedra. . . . again . . . just my take.
We can surely use a different word than gift as I was sadly unaware of all the rules surrounding the giving and receiving of gifts. Although, I do think appreciation is not misplaced when someone freely offers us a place to speak our mind.
Our focus is just different Brainfixed. We look at things from different angles.
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brainfixed
oh boy i'm not even going to try to do the quote thing so that everybody knows what person i'm responding to so i'm just going to say who i'm responding to because i'm just not that talented ok?
tzaia you keep trying to moot my points and i wonder if you're meaning to say my points are "of little or no practical value or meaning"? because whether you like it or not some of the points i make that you try to moot had meaning to us all at one time or another and still have meaning to many people that read here and are still in the way international and still think way international thoughts and wonder how we survive outside of the way international. but then again it could be that you're using the first definition of moot saying that my points are " open to discussion or debate", in which case it would be great if you followed up your mooting with discussion or debate so that we all may be enlightened.
lol george, that's pretty much really what it is like here, isn't it? lol
geisha there's a whole dynamic that is being ignored when making such a statement that i truly hope isn't a dynamic that anybody here is wanting to say thrives here, and that is that the owner of this site has set himself up as some sort of father figure that lulls people into trusting him with their very lives as an answer from god. the whole motorcoach thing was never about friendship and caring about anybody. the correlation cannot even be made here unless anyone wants to set up the owner of this site as the same type of perpetrator as the owner of the motorcoach, and the participants of this site as the same type of followers, and the purpose of this site as the same type of cult. do you seriously equate being drugged and raped to being dissed on a website? if so, then you and i don't just look at things from different angles, you and i are worlds apart.
as for the whole "rules surrounding the giving and receiving of gifts" it's something people don't pay enough attention to and it's something that gets people into problems in interpersonal relationships before they even know what's hit them. how gifts are given and received are at the base of how relationships are built or torn apart and for some reason people tend to think that if they give somebody something then they have also bought into that person's life a little bit in that there is now an expectation about what happens with that gift even if it's just getting a thank you for the gift or a displaying of the gift or a taking care of the gift. i can't believe you were in the way international and missed the whole thing about gift giving in the etiquette lessons? maybe i got them because my brother and my sister were corps? i don't know but there were reams of paper with rules and rules and rules about gifts that were really about how to control people with gifts. anyway i really did have to get therapy to unlearn that crap and to find out that the way international didn't have a corner on the control people with gifts market.
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