TWI, Offshoots, non-offshoots, ex-cultists, all of us: Expanding circle of compassion

[penworks]

Hi Greasespotters and visitors:

In my ongoing attempt to find common ground among religions and in particular lately between TWI supporters, offshoot followers, ex-cultists, never-in-your-life cultists, Christians, Agnostics, Atheists, etc. etc. I'd like to offer this video clip on T.E.D.

My questions are:

Is it really possible to do this?

Are we evolved enough as humans?

How do we de-escalate the rhetoric in civil discourse to do this?

Caution: This is a Buddhist perspective on what it means to be compassionate, although he points out how Christ encouraged this idea and way of life, too.

My intention is that this topic can be disussed here - I don't think it falls under the Doctrinal forum. If I am wrong, it should be moved there.

Robert Thurman on Expanding Your Circle of Compassion

Thanks,

Charlene

Edited November 10, 2009 by penworks

[GarthP2000]

Caution: This is a Buddhist perspective on what it means to be compassionate, although he points out how Christ encouraged this idea and way of life, too.

/me snickers at the 'Caution' of it being from a Buddhist perspective. (OMG! OMG! The speaker is going to offer a perspective from A Different Belief! ... Will we survive as a nation?! <_< )

Interesting video in any event.

[George Aar]

I dunno, I guess it would be nice if people could get along better. But if drippy, annoying, platitude-laden philosophies are our salvation, I think we're really doomed.

Wouldn't it be nice if we'd just use a little more reason when choosing our rules for living? Uh un...

[penworks]

/me snickers at the 'Caution' of it being from a Buddhist perspective.

...indeed...that was my poor attempt at being a bit snide, and obviously not very compassionate - a good example of NOT living up to the high ideals in the message of the speaker... :(

[OldSkool]

My questions are:

Is it really possible to do this?

Are we evolved enough as humans?

How do we de-escalate the rhetoric in civil discourse to do this?

I am working real hard on forgiveness. I have to learn how to cancel the debt against those who wronged me. Whether or not they do that with me is beyond my control and therefore not worth trying to rectify. When I left those I talked to on the way out the door made sure I that I "knew where they were if I needed them". So will I ever go back looking to make amends? no. Will they ever seek me to rebuild the bridge? HIGHLY unlikely. I think your question answers itself.

Edited November 11, 2009 by OldSkool

[Bolshevik]

. . .

Is it really possible to do this?

. . .

It takes time and energy to do anything, and we're limited by both.

[krys]

It would take me a while to wrap my brain around some of this stuff. I understood and followed all his arguments and statements but imho some things were left out......

When I was a mother of small children, sometimes I had to correct them - - egads - even punish them! I'd have to reconcile compassion with justice. I guess it could be done.....but I have to think about it a while.

[sirguessalot]

Robert Thurman is wonderful. I saw him and Karen Armstrong chat the other day on some cable channel.

Is it really possible to do this?

Are we evolved enough as humans?

How do we de-escalate the rhetoric in civil discourse to do this?

yes...and yes.

Center for Non-Violent Communication has been working on it.

Also, something very American and very Christian is the quaker/friends movement...and related arts and ways of dialogue.

Also, Terror Management Theory, based on the works of Ernest Becker, looks at the underlying death-related fears that cause us to react in such uncivil ways.

Also, the many fields of developmentalism add some important information as to how people at different stages of moral, cognitive, faith, and egoic development experience the world.

Also, a restoration of very vital rites of passage for transformation through stages of life.

other efforts and organizations and methods too...but it will at least require an applied synthesis of the best practices to date. And not an anything goes manner...but in a way that can measure the quality of such practices and efforts.

There are "stage-appropriate" responses that apply.

Flat compassion is radical, but not enough. But without it, nothing will ever be enough. Justice without compassion is not justice worth seeking. "Punishment" without compassion generates more problems. Even science without compassion often produces horrific results.

In other words...compassion is necessary, but not sufficient.

Edited November 11, 2009 by sirguessalot

[penworks]

Thanks everyone for the thoughtful and thought-provoking insights. I think this issue is a critical one, obviously, but I struggle to understand it and apply it everyday just like everyone else.

I added the following to another thread this morning but thought it appropriate for this one, too.

As regards to our impulse as humans to offer compassion or encourage others to express it, compassion does not exclude seeking justice for criminals nor should it belittle the pain of victims or minimize the seriousness of these things.

To me, a good example is how the Dalai Lama recently called what the Chinese gov't is doing to the Tibetans a "cultural genocide." Monks are being beaten, human rights violated left and right. I was recently there myself and understand better now what's going on. As a person with good credentials for understanding compassion, D.L. knows better than most that justice is never excluded in the process of extending compassion. I think this has been a common misperception in the West. Perhaps it has been here at GSC. Compassion is not a band-aid or a way of staying in denial about the reality of abuse or crimes nor is it a matter of brushing off harm done. I think humanity is still trying to figure it all out...there are no easy answers. For many of us, at least.

[T-Bone]

Hi Greasespotters and visitors:

In my ongoing attempt to find common ground among religions and in particular lately between TWI supporters, offshoot followers, ex-cultists, never-in-your-life cultists, Christians, Agnostics, Atheists, etc. etc. I'd like to offer this video clip on T.E.D.

My questions are:

Is it really possible to do this?

Are we evolved enough as humans?

How do we de-escalate the rhetoric in civil discourse to do this?

<snip>

Penworks, I was going to say this is a very timely thread but the more I thought about it – this thread touches upon something so basic & ever-present that we forget about it or it simply becomes invisible - - the human condition.

I liked Thurman's quote from Einstein – the essence of which resonated with me - though individuals, we are part of a whole; but we each experience thoughts, feelings, etc. within ourselves; this delusion of separateness desensitizes us, becoming like a prison with limited range of awareness to others beyond the close proximity of our prison bars.

I think psychologist Larry Crabb addressed this topic in a few of his books ["Inside Out" is the one I like the most] - I just wanted to throw that in the mix as one Christian's angle on this. His basic premise being we were designed to be social creatures – but through the fall of man, this as well as so many other aspects of human beings has been screwed up and continues to compound problems as we interact with others through a predominantly self-centered focus.

I enjoyed Thurman's story of the seeker – who finally got his answer in the vision through his act of compassion – reaching out way beyond the prison bars to touch another in desperate need – the point being we need compassion to recognize love.

I did say this was a timely thread – for me anyway. I get these realizations every once and a great while at Grease Spot – and probably should review topics like this on a routine basis. Recently on another thread, after making several looooooooooong posts about my opinions of TWI, another Grease Spotter's comment got me to look outside my tunnel-vision.. . and there lo & behold before my eyes was COMMON GROUND! This realization made enough of a penetration through my thick skull as to get me to see the beauty of Grease Spot's diversity. But at the same time – the common ground that I so often am blind to – it reminded me of our connectedness and helped to make civil discourse possible.. . Oh my, another looooooooong post – sorry, hopefully you can fish something relevant out of my 2 cents. :blush:

[waysider]

No man is an island-------John Donne

[penworks]

Great discussion, all.

In case Thurman did not happen to appeal to some readers here (indeed, did not), here are a few others at T.E.D. who speak on compassion, too.

Brief talks on compassion

Enjoy your Saturday.

[RumRunner]

Is it really possible to do this?

Are we evolved enough as humans?

How do we de-escalate the rhetoric in civil discourse to do this?

Those are actually tough questions...especially when you/he says "we." For starters I will say I cannot answer those questions myself...I'm, generally. too ignorant to speak for humans as a whole.

Life's experiences are so individual that when it comes to personal matters it is hard to consider if "we" are evolved enough as humans as a whole body of animals. It is easy to say humans have a heart, two lungs, a pair of legs, etc. When it comes to life experiences with religion, any religion, it becomes personal and often very individual. The same can be said for trauma. Some people can walk away - others in the same type of trauma are truly damaged for life...and yet others are marginally damaged but can refer to their past trauma as an excuse for future failure.

So my apologies for not providing any answers to your questions but I thought I'd toss in my $0.02 from a general perspective.

[George Aar]

I have no problem with trying to inject a little more compassion into the mix. There's certainly no oversupply at present.

The issue I had with that particular clip was that it seemed to be trying to counteract the negatives of religious influence by simply promoting another religion. And the whole morality tale of the guy who just doesn't get it (and ultimately he ends up licking the maggots off a sick dog's foot - oh sweet Jeezus, deliver me) I found REALLY over-the-top, farking annoying. But such tripe is common in Eastern Religions. There's a million of 'em.

Most of them at least as annoying as that one.

I just don't see how invoking more unsupported obeisance to nonsensical blather is going to help in the long run. I'd be far more impressed if we promoted basic rules of logic and taught rudimentary reasoning. I think it's our only real tool...

[Nottawayfer]

I am working real hard on forgiveness. I have to learn how to cancel the debt against those who wronged me. Whether or not they do that with me is beyond my control and therefore not worth trying to rectify. When I left those I talked to on the way out the door made sure I that I "knew where they were if I needed them". So will I ever go back looking to make amends? no. Will they ever seek me to rebuild the bridge? HIGHLY unlikely. I think your question answers itself.

I don't think you need to cancel the debt against those who wronged you. When I left TWI I had a lot of anger against a lot of the phoney people I trusted. I went to a divorce care group (even though I had been divorced for 7 or 8 years). I learned holding a grudge is like drinking poison and hoping the wrongdoer dies. Forgiveness doesn't mean the wrong is made right. It just means you decide you won't harbor feelings of ill or hate against the wrongdoers.

It took me a while before I was able to move on to forgiveness. Sometimes you need to feel your anger. There's a wide spread of emotions and feelings when you leave a cult. Allowing yourself to experience them can be good for a short time.

Edited November 15, 2009 by Nottawayfer

[kimberly]

Well, Pen, one thing I have learned in my maturing years is that "everybody has a story." That means you never quite know somebody until you hear their life story. When you hear it you understand, maybe, even relate, as to why they are the way they are, or why they think the way they do.

Expanding the circle of compassion reminds me of paradigm shift........the dad was sitting on the bus staring out the window while his children were running rampant all over the place. Others on the bus were furious with him for not making his children behave. They murmured amongst themselves about what a terrible father he was. A woman came to the dad and said, your kids are running crazy all the place and you are doing nothing about it. He came to himself and said, Oh, I am sorry, their mother just died. Upon hearing that everyone's attitude changed. They were compassionate.

[taxicab]

"Compassion and Empathy". Certainly as an educator of young children this is something I think about often. One of my young families at work adopted two children, one from China and one from Ethiopia. Another one of my families adopted a baby girl from Ethiopia but have not gone to get her yet; they're waiting to receive their travel date from Ethiopia. I have a picture of the baby hanging in my classroom; the waiting is difficult for the young family. The first family I mentioned has 2 biological children and the second family has 3 biological children already. For me, these families are the face of compassion. Have any of you heard of the company Tom's Shoes? The owner was moved by compassion to start his business. The video clip comes with a warning. It may provoke strong COMPASSION.

[penworks]

"Compassion and Empathy". Certainly as an educator of young children this is something I think about often. One of my young families at work adopted two children, one from China and one from Ethiopia. Another one of my families adopted a baby girl from Ethiopia but have not gone to get her yet; they're waiting to receive their travel date from Ethiopia. I have a picture of the baby hanging in my classroom; the waiting is difficult for the young family. The first family I mentioned has 2 biological children and the second family has 3 biological children already. For me, these families are the face of compassion. Have any of you heard of the company Tom's Shoes? The owner was moved by compassion to start his business. The video clip comes with a warning. It may provoke strong COMPASSION.

Yes, the Tom's Shoes guy is inspiring! Thanks for these great examples of taking care of the mountainous number of children lost in the world. Children will run this place when we're gone...my hope is we give them ways to do it that benefit not divide humanity.

Here's a "secular" take on the issue, but in the end says the same thing, in my view. From Robert Wright. He "uses evolutionary biology and game theory to explain why we appreciate the Golden Rule ("Do unto others..."), why we sometimes ignore it and why there’s hope that, in the near future, we might all have the compassion to follow it."

Evolution of compassion

Edited November 19, 2009 by penworks