Wherefore I say unto you, All manner of sin and blasphemy shall be forgiven unto men: but the blasphemy against the Holy Ghost shall not be forgiven unto men.
Matthew 12:32
And whosoever speaketh a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but whosoever speaketh against the Holy Ghost, it shall not be forgiven him, neither in this world, neither in the world to come.
Luke 12:10
And whosoever shall speak a word against the Son of man, it shall be forgiven him: but unto him that blasphemeth against the Holy Ghost it shall not be forgiven.
1John 5:16
If any man see his brother sin a sin which is not unto death, he shall ask, and he shall give him life for them that sin not unto death. There is a sin unto death: I do not say that he shall pray for it.
Basically these are the scriptures along with Genesis about seed.
Born of the seed of the serpent is not in the scriptures.
It is thought that the 4 scriptures I put in a quote present something that is wrong to do.
The concept of selling one's soul to the devil goes way back into the roots of African folk legend. One of the more well known, modern versions of these tales, involves bluesman Tommy Johnson, and later Robert Johnson, selling his soul at the "crossroads" in exchange for musical ability.
The concept of selling one's soul to the devil goes way back into the roots of African folk legend. One of the more well known, modern versions of these tales, involves bluesman Tommy Johnson, and later Robert Johnson, selling his soul at the "crossroads" in exchange for musical ability.
Its a folk tale in Europe as well, illustrated by Christopher Marlowe's "Faust", The German doctor that sold his soul to Mephistopheles for knowledge ..(the greatest secret in the world??.. :o )and nubile young women.
It was repackaged in Germany by many people ---Geothe, Franz Liszt, and Gustav Mahler
Not sure about the origin of this particular vp doctrine – don't know if he "borrowed" it from other sources or came up with it all on his own – but no longer subscribe to it either for philosophical reasons [mainly that man was created in the image of God and still retains that spiritual aspect although now it's in a fallen state; another big reason I don't buy into it is that it smacks of vp's conspiracy theory mindset, i.e. the Illuminati, the Devil is behind everything, even Mickey Mouse is born again of the wrong seed <_< , etc.].
As a sidelight to this subject – maybe it was around the time frame of the Athletes of the Spirit production – LCM was getting into devil spirit/wrong seed stuff big time in his podium teachings and informal settings. Might be a little jumbled up here – sorry – but if I remember the essence of it - He described the seed of the serpent as being like a "permanent wedgie" [ – just slipped that in to keep the young folks awake – although me and a few Corps buds did have quite a few jokes about that] – ahem, that's "permanent wedge" placed in the person's [here's where I'm fuzzy on a detail] mind or heart or soemthing – giving [again fuzzy here] the devil permanent access into their heart & life or something bad like that; I also vaguely remember it being put as a kind of permanent possession – you couldn't cast it out.
There also may have been ideas from other upper leadership elaborating on this – and I do remember someone – if not LCM himself, remarking how since the devil cannot create it could not be a literal seed like what God places in the believer. Don't know if I'd give any of these guys credit for trying to explore/articulate some PFAL doctrine like typical scholars developing a systematic theology. Seems to me now that it was their usual intellectually ludicrous endeavor to somehow reinforce the PFAL frame of thought. Or maybe just to re-market PFAL with a demonstration of plumbing the ineffably greatness of the exceedingly abundant depths of vp's cesspool [aka vp's mind].
Wrong seed was the chewy caramel center of the Advanced Class – but I don't think it was such a big deal for your average PFAL grad who hadn't taken the Advanced Class.. . For whatever reason the PFAL session on the unforgiveable sin was pulled from the class – I think it was already missing around the time I first took it in 1974 – but I could be wrong on the time period, I'm terrible with dates; my wife is a lot better at piecing together events/incidents/time frames of this kind of stuff. Anyway – grads of the class would watch the unforgiveable sin session shortly after the completing the class.
Ever since I left, every once and a great while I've wondered about the reason why they pulled the session from the class. Did it cause too many issues in the minds of new grad? As it is, there were always a few folks in every class [God bless 'em] who had a gazillion questions at the end of the class – much to the chagrin of the class instructor.
When I think about the practical consequence of a doctrine – except for the fact that this subject wasn't something they frequently pushed in public teachings like the law of believing – it might rank pretty high on the here's-something-to-royally-screw-up-your-life scale. Needless to say, it's a pretty rank doctrine anyway.
My wife will always remember the crapstorm in her Advanced Class Twig generated from a discussion of the unforgiveable sin - my wife questioning the apprentice Corps Twig Leader's "definitive answer" on how one specifically commits this sin. Tonto finally did receive an "official answer" through LCM himself yelling in front of the student body [LCM was assisting vp in the class – by the way there's a picture from our Advanced Class in my gallery/Blast from the Past album - titled "Fat Man & Little Boy" in honor of the nuclear devastation wrought by vp & LCM] – and "the answer" was simply you do not question leadership [in Tonto's case – her Twig Leader]
A real turn off for all you critical thinking fans out there for sure – I mean that literally.
~~
As to the serpent's seed of Genesis 3:15; there's also "her seed". I usually think of the Messianic reference which is a remote application – the enmity climaxing with the final one-on-one confrontation between Christ and the Devil. However, keeping in mind the general fight of good versus evil prominent throughout the Bible leads me to think the "seeds" have an immediate sense as well – i.e. all descendants. People could be considered descendants in a metaphorical sense in terms of something in common, sharing the same traits; linked through the heritage of intangible attributes.
To be consistent with the concept in other passages I think a less literal interpretation is in order. In Ephesians 2:3 Paul speaks of a time past when Christians were by nature the children of wrath, even as others but by Ephesians 5:1 he says to be followers of God as dear children. "Children" like "seed" being a reflection of their families – possessing some affinity to a group and though not spelled out here, a common bond could simply be sharing a legacy of beliefs.
On page 771 of "The Dictionary of Biblical Imagery", editors Ryken, Wilhoit, Longman, under the "SEED" entry it says the seed image often denotes human lineage or heritage – the seed of Eve and of the serpent are opposed from the Fall onward. Poets and prophets describe the races as the seed of the righteous [Proverbs 11:21] or the seed of the wicked [isaiah 1:4]. End of reference.
vp says the John 8:44 passage "you are of your father, the devil" indicates these Jews were born again of the seed of the serpent. On page 60 of "The New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel of John", John Hendriksen takes a less literal approach saying this emphasizes their moral relationship to the devil. When I hear someone say "like father, like son", I tend to think the idiom expresses that the person is following in another's footsteps [like the Ephesians 5:1 usage, "be followers of God as dear children" mentioned earlier].
~~
Regarding the unforgiveable sin – I don't have a whole lot to say nor desire to look into it. Scripture doesn't give a whole lot of details on it and its specific reference seems limited to the gospels – so I'm inclined to leave it alone. I haven't found a definitive answer in the systematic theologies that I've read – sometimes they lose me when discussions get more philosophical than technical or don't cite Scripture that has an overt or simple logical relationship to the topic.
~~
Another question – does "seed" of the serpent link to the unforgiveable sin in anyway? Not sure – but I doubt it. The unforgiveable sin seems to place one's spiritual status on the not-so-good list permanently. And I think about someone like Paul – the vp mindset could very well deem him born of the wrong seed by his vehement attacks on Christians – yet he flip-flopped after meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus. And I think about the simple change of "families" referred to earlier – Ephesians 2:3 & 5:1.
So.. .some things to think about.. .interesting thread, thanks ErkJohn/all.
Thanks everyone for your insights. It just seems to me that this doctrine of "Seed of the Serpent" is totally contrived and not at all based on scripture. At best we have folklore that discusses selling one's soul to the Devil. There are a few scriptures one can twist and jam and make it perhaps fit into this strange belief.
In my view, this does not jive with the very clear Christian message of unconditional forgiveness.
BTW, the "Seed of the Serpent" section of PFAL was pulled by 1974 and I don't recall it being shown anywhere. I was told that some people would become afraid that they were born of the wrong seed. It was, as I recall, taught in the Advanced Class. LCM took this doctrine to new heights. Soon, many successful athletes (Mohammad Ali) were successful because they were "seed boys". As were many musicians. It always put more of a "zip" into his teachings. Wierwille said, or at least I heard he said, that all heads of denominations were born of the seed of the serpent.
It was a good way to ostracize certain people that could possibly compete with our admiration of the leaders of The Way.
When I took PLAF (The Wonder Class) in 1972, The Unforgivable Sin was still being taught. Here is that teaching from page 42 of the silly-bus.
************************************************
THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
Sin against the Holy Ghost. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
1. Two gods-II Corinthians 1:2,3; 4:4
2. Blasphemy-Matthew 12:31. Mark 3:29. Luke 12:10.
3. Two seeds. Genesis 3:15. Compare John 8:12ff.
4. Born again--seed of Christ--love of God--love. I John 3:9-15.
5. Born again--seed of Satan--hate of Satan--hate. I John 5:16.
THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
TWO SEEDS
Body/Soul---------------------Body/Soul
BORN AGAIN---------BORN AGAIN
Seed of Christ-----------Seed of Satan
Love of God---------------Hate of Satan
Eternal Life---------------Eternal Death
Children born of Christian parents
I Corinthians 7:14. Hebrews 1:14
CONCLUSION:"To have eternal life is to have eternal life. It is not to manifest the holy spirit. That is something else. Power or ability comes into evidence after one has believed and received the holy spirit. The life and nature of God in you at the time of the new birth is the potential to power, the door to it. Acts 10:38. The power of the new birth is in the renewing of the mind, knowing what you have received and are in Christ Jesus."
BTW, the "Seed of the Serpent" section of PFAL was pulled by 1974 and I don't recall it being shown anywhere. I was told that some people would become afraid that they were born of the wrong seed.
Yeah. It might even provoke someone who is already suicidal to feel there is no escape from eternal damnation if they are told all hope for salvation is lost.
How strange. I was at a class where new Christians or those simply investigating Christianity can discuss whatever questions they wish. And someone asked, what is the unforgivable sin? Zzzippp...my mind went straight back to the teaching that T-Bone so carefully describes. But the group facilitator (herself a longstanding Christian) simply said that she wasn't sure.
So I'll be watching this discussion with interest. Hope it continues.
Waysider, every time you've mentioned vp's unforgiveable sin/Billy I just cringe at the destructive nature of toxic doctrines.. .Coincidentally, you got out your old silly-bus and last night I happened to review the unforgiveable sin covered in PFAL & The Word's Way - - ugh not the best choice for reading in bed. Anyway here's a few thoughts:
Page 319 of PFAL, John Doe of body & soul has no spirit in him; he has only 2 choices: confess Jesus as Lord or believe the Devil is the true God. End of Reference.
Hey vp, chapter and verse please! Check out the context of Matthew 12:22-32 where the unforgiveable sin is mentioned. Jesus had just healed a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute. The Pharisees said it was by Beelzebub the prince of demons Jesus drives out demons. Following Jesus' reply to the Pharisees about a kingdom divided against itself, that He drives out demons by the Spirit of God & etc. and then when you get to verse 32 – it seems Jesus is turning the tables on the Pharisees' by using their false accusation as an example of an unforgiveable sin – it's NOT blasphemy against the Son of Man but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Which the Pharisees had just done by attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the Devil.
I'm not sure on where I'm going with this other than I don't see Jesus mentioning anything about someone believing the Devil is the true God in this passage – or any of the other gospels that cover this sin.. .
Has anyone ever been in meetings where vp lambasted other ministries and churches? I have!! Man oh man, he'd go on about wrong seed running this or that group, or the head of that group is deceived by devil spirits, the pope is wrong seed, the Trinity was thought up by wrong seed, you gotta be possessed to believe in the Trinity.. .Uh oh, you don't think vp committed the unforgiveable sin, do ya?
note to self: DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT read any PFAL material before going to bed!!! .. . bad dreams.
Page 319 of PFAL, John Doe of body & soul has no spirit in him; he has only 2 choices: confess Jesus as Lord or believe the Devil is the true God. End of Reference.
.
Yikes!
That means that, according to THIS, 66% of the world's population believe the Devil is the true God.
I better stock up on Green Cards and go WOW as soon as I can.
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cman
Basically these are the scriptures along with Genesis about seed.
Born of the seed of the serpent is not in the scriptures.
It is thought that the 4 scriptures I put in a quote present something that is wrong to do.
I disagree.
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cman
That would suggest there wasn't enmity between them before?
And what about the enmity now?
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waysider
The concept of selling one's soul to the devil goes way back into the roots of African folk legend. One of the more well known, modern versions of these tales, involves bluesman Tommy Johnson, and later Robert Johnson, selling his soul at the "crossroads" in exchange for musical ability.
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mstar1
Its a folk tale in Europe as well, illustrated by Christopher Marlowe's "Faust", The German doctor that sold his soul to Mephistopheles for knowledge ..(the greatest secret in the world??.. :o )and nubile young women.
It was repackaged in Germany by many people ---Geothe, Franz Liszt, and Gustav Mahler
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T-Bone
Not sure about the origin of this particular vp doctrine – don't know if he "borrowed" it from other sources or came up with it all on his own – but no longer subscribe to it either for philosophical reasons [mainly that man was created in the image of God and still retains that spiritual aspect although now it's in a fallen state; another big reason I don't buy into it is that it smacks of vp's conspiracy theory mindset, i.e. the Illuminati, the Devil is behind everything, even Mickey Mouse is born again of the wrong seed <_< , etc.].
As a sidelight to this subject – maybe it was around the time frame of the Athletes of the Spirit production – LCM was getting into devil spirit/wrong seed stuff big time in his podium teachings and informal settings. Might be a little jumbled up here – sorry – but if I remember the essence of it - He described the seed of the serpent as being like a "permanent wedgie" [
– just slipped that in to keep the young folks awake – although me and a few Corps buds did have quite a few jokes about that] – ahem, that's "permanent wedge" placed in the person's [here's where I'm fuzzy on a detail] mind or heart or soemthing – giving [again fuzzy here] the devil permanent access into their heart & life or something bad like that; I also vaguely remember it being put as a kind of permanent possession – you couldn't cast it out.
There also may have been ideas from other upper leadership elaborating on this – and I do remember someone – if not LCM himself, remarking how since the devil cannot create it could not be a literal seed like what God places in the believer. Don't know if I'd give any of these guys credit for trying to explore/articulate some PFAL doctrine like typical scholars developing a systematic theology. Seems to me now that it was their usual intellectually ludicrous endeavor to somehow reinforce the PFAL frame of thought. Or maybe just to re-market PFAL with a demonstration of plumbing the ineffably greatness of the exceedingly abundant depths of vp's cesspool [aka vp's mind].
Wrong seed was the chewy caramel center of the Advanced Class – but I don't think it was such a big deal for your average PFAL grad who hadn't taken the Advanced Class.. . For whatever reason the PFAL session on the unforgiveable sin was pulled from the class – I think it was already missing around the time I first took it in 1974 – but I could be wrong on the time period, I'm terrible with dates; my wife is a lot better at piecing together events/incidents/time frames of this kind of stuff. Anyway – grads of the class would watch the unforgiveable sin session shortly after the completing the class.
Ever since I left, every once and a great while I've wondered about the reason why they pulled the session from the class. Did it cause too many issues in the minds of new grad? As it is, there were always a few folks in every class [God bless 'em] who had a gazillion questions at the end of the class – much to the chagrin of the class instructor.
When I think about the practical consequence of a doctrine – except for the fact that this subject wasn't something they frequently pushed in public teachings like the law of believing – it might rank pretty high on the here's-something-to-royally-screw-up-your-life scale. Needless to say, it's a pretty rank doctrine anyway.
My wife will always remember the crapstorm in her Advanced Class Twig generated from a discussion of the unforgiveable sin - my wife questioning the apprentice Corps Twig Leader's "definitive answer" on how one specifically commits this sin. Tonto finally did receive an "official answer" through LCM himself yelling in front of the student body [LCM was assisting vp in the class – by the way there's a picture from our Advanced Class in my gallery/Blast from the Past album - titled "Fat Man & Little Boy" in honor of the nuclear devastation wrought by vp & LCM] – and "the answer" was simply you do not question leadership [in Tonto's case – her Twig Leader]
http://www.greasespo...post__p__210357
A real turn off for all you critical thinking fans out there for sure – I mean that literally.
~~
As to the serpent's seed of Genesis 3:15; there's also "her seed". I usually think of the Messianic reference which is a remote application – the enmity climaxing with the final one-on-one confrontation between Christ and the Devil. However, keeping in mind the general fight of good versus evil prominent throughout the Bible leads me to think the "seeds" have an immediate sense as well – i.e. all descendants. People could be considered descendants in a metaphorical sense in terms of something in common, sharing the same traits; linked through the heritage of intangible attributes.
To be consistent with the concept in other passages I think a less literal interpretation is in order. In Ephesians 2:3 Paul speaks of a time past when Christians were by nature the children of wrath, even as others but by Ephesians 5:1 he says to be followers of God as dear children. "Children" like "seed" being a reflection of their families – possessing some affinity to a group and though not spelled out here, a common bond could simply be sharing a legacy of beliefs.
On page 771 of "The Dictionary of Biblical Imagery", editors Ryken, Wilhoit, Longman, under the "SEED" entry it says the seed image often denotes human lineage or heritage – the seed of Eve and of the serpent are opposed from the Fall onward. Poets and prophets describe the races as the seed of the righteous [Proverbs 11:21] or the seed of the wicked [isaiah 1:4]. End of reference.
vp says the John 8:44 passage "you are of your father, the devil" indicates these Jews were born again of the seed of the serpent. On page 60 of "The New Testament Commentary: Exposition of the Gospel of John", John Hendriksen takes a less literal approach saying this emphasizes their moral relationship to the devil. When I hear someone say "like father, like son", I tend to think the idiom expresses that the person is following in another's footsteps [like the Ephesians 5:1 usage, "be followers of God as dear children" mentioned earlier].
~~
Regarding the unforgiveable sin – I don't have a whole lot to say nor desire to look into it. Scripture doesn't give a whole lot of details on it and its specific reference seems limited to the gospels – so I'm inclined to leave it alone. I haven't found a definitive answer in the systematic theologies that I've read – sometimes they lose me when discussions get more philosophical than technical or don't cite Scripture that has an overt or simple logical relationship to the topic.
~~
Another question – does "seed" of the serpent link to the unforgiveable sin in anyway? Not sure – but I doubt it. The unforgiveable sin seems to place one's spiritual status on the not-so-good list permanently. And I think about someone like Paul – the vp mindset could very well deem him born of the wrong seed by his vehement attacks on Christians – yet he flip-flopped after meeting Jesus on the road to Damascus. And I think about the simple change of "families" referred to earlier – Ephesians 2:3 & 5:1.
So.. .some things to think about.. .interesting thread, thanks ErkJohn/all.
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Broken Arrow
Thanks everyone for your insights. It just seems to me that this doctrine of "Seed of the Serpent" is totally contrived and not at all based on scripture. At best we have folklore that discusses selling one's soul to the Devil. There are a few scriptures one can twist and jam and make it perhaps fit into this strange belief.
In my view, this does not jive with the very clear Christian message of unconditional forgiveness.
BTW, the "Seed of the Serpent" section of PFAL was pulled by 1974 and I don't recall it being shown anywhere. I was told that some people would become afraid that they were born of the wrong seed. It was, as I recall, taught in the Advanced Class. LCM took this doctrine to new heights. Soon, many successful athletes (Mohammad Ali) were successful because they were "seed boys". As were many musicians. It always put more of a "zip" into his teachings. Wierwille said, or at least I heard he said, that all heads of denominations were born of the seed of the serpent.
It was a good way to ostracize certain people that could possibly compete with our admiration of the leaders of The Way.
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waysider
When I took PLAF (The Wonder Class) in 1972, The Unforgivable Sin was still being taught. Here is that teaching from page 42 of the silly-bus.
************************************************
THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
Sin against the Holy Ghost. Blasphemy against the Holy Spirit.
1. Two gods-II Corinthians 1:2,3; 4:4
2. Blasphemy-Matthew 12:31. Mark 3:29. Luke 12:10.
3. Two seeds. Genesis 3:15. Compare John 8:12ff.
4. Born again--seed of Christ--love of God--love. I John 3:9-15.
5. Born again--seed of Satan--hate of Satan--hate. I John 5:16.
THE UNFORGIVABLE SIN
TWO SEEDS
Body/Soul---------------------Body/Soul
BORN AGAIN---------BORN AGAIN
Seed of Christ-----------Seed of Satan
Love of God---------------Hate of Satan
Eternal Life---------------Eternal Death
Children born of Christian parents
I Corinthians 7:14. Hebrews 1:14
CONCLUSION: "To have eternal life is to have eternal life. It is not to manifest the holy spirit. That is something else. Power or ability comes into evidence after one has believed and received the holy spirit. The life and nature of God in you at the time of the new birth is the potential to power, the door to it. Acts 10:38. The power of the new birth is in the renewing of the mind, knowing what you have received and are in Christ Jesus."
**********************************************************
:realmad: 
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waysider
Yeah. It might even provoke someone who is already suicidal to feel there is no escape from eternal damnation if they are told all hope for salvation is lost.
R.I.P., Billy---I still miss you.
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Twinky
How strange. I was at a class where new Christians or those simply investigating Christianity can discuss whatever questions they wish. And someone asked, what is the unforgivable sin? Zzzippp...my mind went straight back to the teaching that T-Bone so carefully describes. But the group facilitator (herself a longstanding Christian) simply said that she wasn't sure.
So I'll be watching this discussion with interest. Hope it continues.
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Watered Garden
Wasn't that advanced class special in 1992 called "Dealing with the Adversary - Seed of the Serpent?"
Totally weird class, IMO. I think erkjohn had already escaped by then??
WG
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WordWolf
I don't have time to address this properly yet.
When I do, I'll go into how vpw said that his expression was equivalent to the
phrase in the Old Testament, "sons of Belial" or "son of Belial."
"Sons of Belial" occurs in Judges 19:22, I Samuel 2:12, II Samuel 23:6, I Kings 21:10.
"Son of Belial" occurs in I Samuel 25:17.
"Daughter of Belial" occurs in I Samuel 1:16.
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T-Bone
Waysider, every time you've mentioned vp's unforgiveable sin/Billy I just cringe at the destructive nature of toxic doctrines.. .Coincidentally, you got out your old silly-bus and last night I happened to review the unforgiveable sin covered in PFAL & The Word's Way - - ugh not the best choice for reading in bed. Anyway here's a few thoughts:
Page 319 of PFAL, John Doe of body & soul has no spirit in him; he has only 2 choices: confess Jesus as Lord or believe the Devil is the true God. End of Reference.
Hey vp, chapter and verse please! Check out the context of Matthew 12:22-32 where the unforgiveable sin is mentioned. Jesus had just healed a demon-possessed man who was blind and mute. The Pharisees said it was by Beelzebub the prince of demons Jesus drives out demons. Following Jesus' reply to the Pharisees about a kingdom divided against itself, that He drives out demons by the Spirit of God & etc. and then when you get to verse 32 – it seems Jesus is turning the tables on the Pharisees' by using their false accusation as an example of an unforgiveable sin – it's NOT blasphemy against the Son of Man but blasphemy against the Holy Spirit. Which the Pharisees had just done by attributing the work of the Holy Spirit to the Devil.
I'm not sure on where I'm going with this other than I don't see Jesus mentioning anything about someone believing the Devil is the true God in this passage – or any of the other gospels that cover this sin.. .
Has anyone ever been in meetings where vp lambasted other ministries and churches? I have!! Man oh man, he'd go on about wrong seed running this or that group, or the head of that group is deceived by devil spirits, the pope is wrong seed, the Trinity was thought up by wrong seed, you gotta be possessed to believe in the Trinity.. .Uh oh, you don't think vp committed the unforgiveable sin, do ya?
note to self: DO NOT, I repeat DO NOT read any PFAL material before going to bed!!! .. . bad dreams.
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waysider
Yikes!
That means that, according to THIS, 66% of the world's population believe the Devil is the true God.
I better stock up on Green Cards and go WOW as soon as I can.
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cman
I wonder....
should common sense be a factor in thinking,
or are we bound to what someone else wrote.
Or even released by what someone else wrote.
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