So, now I am being "psycho-analyzed" by someone who looks like a rat, is not a professional psychiatrist and I am simply to accept it? No one here saying that this analysis is "unwelcome".
You did put your opinions out on the world wide web for us rodent types to examine, didn't you?
don't underestimate the rodents.. who do you think really runs the world.
what you might be experiencing.. isn't analysis.. maybe its "we don't have to put up with your kind of subtle or not so subtle god like arrogance.."
I would never say you have to do anything my way. For 1 thing honestly I'm still sorting out what my way really is. But I do know that you came in here and started blasting people calling this place a splinter group which in some strange way may or may not be true. However, I know for me this place has helped me to vent a little, hear other peoples stories so I didn't feel alone in my own and also be able to read some very good points about doctrine that I have never either considered or at least not allowed to mention in the group that I was in. So by all means pease do things your way but p[lease remember respect for others while you do it. :)
No one was psycho analyzing you, that`s a pretty silly claim.... I have to say that it does seems rather ironic that you point your finger of accusation at folks who participate here as doing something wrong or unsavory....that you are some how an expert, qualified to analyze, judge, and condemn folks....somehow omnipotent in determining what good is or is not being derived from Grease spot.
What are your qualification to make these assessments Clay? What makes you think that it is your position to determine where God works and with whom?
Why would you want to obstruct the benefits others find in this venue?
Your insults and derision aside, my sadness for the limited scope of your understanding of what is accomplished and the caliber of the folks here was genuine.
I would agree with Rascal in that in would behoove you to have the facts before venturing an opinion. Now, you can have an opinion, and you can share it without the facts, but the opinion carries a bit more weight when you know what you're talking about.
Another thing, being free to express an opinion doesn't mean that no one is going to disagree with you.
I have stumbled upon another Way International "splinter group".
There are a number of reasons GSC doesn't fit into the "splinter group" category.
1) No figurehead leadership. (Paw's nice and not the imposing cult leader type).
2) No membership. (Members are a cross-section of many Christian churches / orgs.)
3) Ecumenical in nature. (All participate - Christians to Atheists).
4) $$$ - no taught tithing / ABS / etc.
I remember my high school years as a dope smoker and the "fellowship" that came with being on that common ground with my stoner friends. Shoot, the "new conversation" was endless! We could talk about the various strains of reefer, the difference between bamboo bongs and Plexiglass bongs, how nice it was to buy a pound for $150.00, sell ten lids, get the money back and have two free ounces for private consumption, what it was like "last night when we got the munchies and raided so and so's refrigerator and ate an entire half of a left over prime rib, etc. We could talk about the Chinese fire drills we all had with three cars abreast at a stop light with everyone getting back into a different car. Lots of funniness, lots of heavy laughing, and good common ground fellowship. Of course, we didn't call it "fellowsip" but in essence, that's what it was. When we were in class and were stoned, when we saw a pal and recognized that they were stoned too, we would give each other the look that said "we knew". We knew man, we knew!
Now I'm starting to understand the "get over it" spiel. You don't want us to ruin your buzz, man. ;)
Like when we were in The Way. We knew that we had the one and only "true version" of God's Word, and fellow shipped around the myriad differences between the "true Word of God" and the "counterfeits" that were out there masquerading as God's Word. As wrong as it was to think that way, it was our "fellowship". And even though we were wrong to have our egotistical attitudes about our new found Truth, we were mostly positive and mostly happy. I mean, God forbid that you shown any signs of negativity, for, you get confronted, reproved! "C'mon man! Where's your believing! renew your mind!"
While most of us can understand and relate to an analogy of being in TWI like smoking dope in that both causes you to depart from reality, I don't think the positivity / negativity line of thought holds much water.
And so, I have found yet another TWI splinter group. But this group doesn't fellowship around the positives of their new religion. This group fellowships around the shared negatives that they once experienced when they were involved with The Way International some twenty and even as long ago as thirty years! Oh man, and do they have lots to talk about! Their shared experiences seem to buoy them up almost constantly! And, even though they have shared the same negatives for what seems to be years and years now, they just keep on bringing it up over and over and over. Some of them have been OUT of The Way for many more years than they were actually In The Way! And that to me is sad. Because, the years that they spent In have not been allowed to slip away into the past.
And this group stopped smoking dope in the '70's too. I wonder if that made them less positive.
It's almost like they are, because of the daily "renewed pictures in their minds" still in the situations they were once in so very long ago. Those negative situations must be as fresh to them today as they were the day it happened-twenty five years ago. But, this is a nation where Liberty still rings, and we all have the right to choose. But as for me, I am beginning to wonder: Just how healthy it is to hang around with this particular splinter group?
Well, we don't go to fellowship together 3x per week, plus phone hookups, plus coords meetings, plus fax in leaders our schedules, plus spending all your time off and money on going to events where people teach you to write letters and you're taught the same stuff at a 5th grade level.
Actually I don't really see how anyone on this site does a lot of "hanging out". It's a discussion forum.
Obviously, I am talking about the Grease Spot Cafe, and obviously there are those here who will resent this observation, and naturally, disagree with it. But maybe there are some of you "Newbies" here who ought to reconsider your involvement with this splinter group, for that's all it is, just another Way International splinter group.
Actually the one thing you discuss I have "gotten over" from TWI involvement is resentment. Now I'm free to discuss facts, opinions, differences of viewpoints, etc.
Maybe you're projecting. Maybe it's you who ought to reconsider involvement with splinter groups. Actually the newbies just leaving TWI need it more so they know they aren't crazy and aren't the only ones who experienced what they did.
Ignores it when people point out that insulting TWI victims is wrong,
Jumps into Greasespotters and the poop references with zeal,
Complains of being treated with meanness after insulting people yet praises those who treat him kindly, even though he has done nothing to earn the kindness.
I THINK I MAY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO OLDIESMAN AFTER ALL!
It's simple Waysider. The .... that went down was bad. People got hurt. Sin got the "bit in it's teeth" and began to rule TWI until it crumbled. It reminds me of all the sin that we saw amongst the believers in the Old Testament, the sin that went down in the First Century Church which the Apostle Paul addressed in the Church epistles. Nothing new under the sun dude.
And as for me, I prefer to take the good things that I learned, continue to utilize them, and discard that which I believe to be Biblically inaccurate, discard any bad memories which I chalk up to "sin nature/human nature" and help others to do the same if I can. I have said it before and I will say it again. I believe that VP started out as a good guy who wanted to help others live the more than abundant life, but quickly allowed his sin nature to rule as he "looked to the left and then to the right" and did not keep his "eyes turned upon Jesus". He had a weakness for women and succumbed to it, abusing his trust as a Minister. And I am in no way equating VP with King David, but David, a man after God's own heart, knocked up Uriah's wife and then had Uriah killed, which p**sed God off mightily! And God forgave David. I think God could also forgive VP, had VP asked. But we don't know if VP did that or not. Guess that's in God's ball park. And, when the wealth began to flow in via the Biblical principle called tithing, he abused that also. A good thing gone bad. Like the Catholic Church, the Labor Unions, the charitable organizations who have abused their power, VP and the hierarchy in The Way abused their power. Just like countless HUMAN ORGANIZATIONS have done! The list goes on and on and on and on. The sins comitted in The Way come nowhere near the level committed by the Roman Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition. And yet, I don't hear much ranting here about the RC like I do TWI. Read the book "The People Of The Book", an amazing account of how the RCs persecuted Jews during the Inquisition. It was sad to learn that the RCs persecuted not only Christians who believed differently than them, but also Hebrews/Jews who didn't accept the Catholic religion.
History is full of ABUSES by religious organizations, and The Way, sadly, was/is no exception. Yet, it's THE ONE WE ALL HERE WERE INVOLVED WITH. Okay, so, what to do? Well, I say, and I know that this opinion is not welcome here-thus saith Oakespeare-that the best way to deal with these years gone by is to FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASSED AGAINST US, and leave it all in the dust as we move down Life's Highway to bigger and better things! WTF is so wrong with that? IMO, nothing...
But, I personally respect many of the things I learned in PFAL, The Word Of God that I learned and am appreciative of it until this day. I refuse to believe that I was a "duped automaton" as some here continue to try and convince others that they were in fact just that. I made my decision to be involved by the freedom of my will, and when things began to spiral out of control as Sin reared it's Ugly Head, I walked.
I think it entirely unproductive to wallow in the Past, "get angry all over again" (which I have seen here alot), and I think that this site in many ways helps to perpetuate that "gettin' angry all over again" attitude. That's my opinion "and I'm sticking to it". Life's too short and too sweet to get angry about all of this stuff over and over again. Hey! I too was a Wayfer dagnabbit! And I have an opinion about my time in, and so, I express it.
Hopefully WS, I have answered the other side of your question. And, as GarthP used to say...Cheers!
I think it entirely unproductive to wallow in the Past, "get angry all over again" (which I have seen here alot), and I think that this site in many ways helps to perpetuate that "gettin' angry all over again" attitude. That's my opinion "and I'm sticking to it". Life's too short and too sweet to get angry about all of this stuff over and over again. Hey! I too was a Wayfer dagnabbit! And I have an opinion about my time in, and so, I express it.
. . .
oh, we don't need no website to get angry.
. . .
But, I personally respect many of the things I learned in PFAL, The Word Of God that I learned and am appreciative of it until this day.
It's simple Waysider. The .... that went down was bad. People got hurt. Sin got the "bit in it's teeth" and began to rule TWI until it crumbled. It reminds me of all the sin that we saw amongst the believers in the Old Testament, the sin that went down in the First Century Church which the Apostle Paul addressed in the Church epistles. Nothing new under the sun dude.
And as for me, I prefer to take the good things that I learned, continue to utilize them, and discard that which I believe to be Biblically inaccurate, discard any bad memories which I chalk up to "sin nature/human nature" and help others to do the same if I can. I have said it before and I will say it again. I believe that VP started out as a good guy who wanted to help others live the more than abundant life, but quickly allowed his sin nature to rule as he "looked to the left and then to the right" and did not keep his "eyes turned upon Jesus". He had a weakness for women and succumbed to it, abusing his trust as a Minister. And I am in no way equating VP with King David, but David, a man after God's own heart, knocked up Uriah's wife and then had Uriah killed, which p**sed God off mightily! And God forgave David. I think God could also forgive VP, had VP asked. But we don't know if VP did that or not. Guess that's in God's ball park. And, when the wealth began to flow in via the Biblical principle called tithing, he abused that also. A good thing gone bad. Like the Catholic Church, the Labor Unions, the charitable organizations who have abused their power, VP and the hierarchy in The Way abused their power. Just like countless HUMAN ORGANIZATIONS have done! The list goes on and on and on and on. The sins comitted in The Way come nowhere near the level committed by the Roman Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition. And yet, I don't hear much ranting here about the RC like I do TWI. Read the book "The People Of The Book", an amazing account of how the RCs persecuted Jews during the Inquisition. It was sad to learn that the RCs persecuted not only Christians who believed differently than them, but also Hebrews/Jews who didn't accept the Catholic religion.
I'm sure if you had a website where victims of RC inquisitors frequented you would hear more about that. Here there are TWI victims. The problem with marginalizing evil and saying it's the same as all the other evil people experienced in the past is the same argument people use to stay involved with TWI as opposed to voting with their feet. I don't like evil, I vote with my feet, and I tell others about it.
History is full of ABUSES by religious organizations, and The Way, sadly, was/is no exception. Yet, it's THE ONE WE ALL HERE WERE INVOLVED WITH. Okay, so, what to do? Well, I say, and I know that this opinion is not welcome here-thus saith Oakespeare-that the best way to deal with these years gone by is to FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASSED AGAINST US, and leave it all in the dust as we move down Life's Highway to bigger and better things! WTF is so wrong with that? IMO, nothing...
Have they asked for forgiveness? I'm not aware of one single case where TWI leadership even comes close to admitting they are wrong. They blame the followers while perpetuating their sin. While we can forgive them we also have a Christian duty to warn others so they are not fooled. Wise as serpents harmless as doves.
But, I personally respect many of the things I learned in PFAL, The Word Of God that I learned and am appreciative of it until this day. I refuse to believe that I was a "duped automaton" as some here continue to try and convince others that they were in fact just that. I made my decision to be involved by the freedom of my will, and when things began to spiral out of control as Sin reared it's Ugly Head, I walked.
I'm appreciative that TWI involvement helped me keep my head in the Bible - good stuff there to read. I think the rest of your statement is a straw man argument. Nobody is saying we were "duped automatons". Yes we were duped. Yes we probably committed sin and perhaps hurt others due to our support of sinful men and women. Being duped and emotionally bribed is one way people give up freedom of will. You were duped. You are the same - ignoring that fact does not help one heal.
I think it entirely unproductive to wallow in the Past, "get angry all over again" (which I have seen here alot), and I think that this site in many ways helps to perpetuate that "gettin' angry all over again" attitude. That's my opinion "and I'm sticking to it". Life's too short and too sweet to get angry about all of this stuff over and over again. Hey! I too was a Wayfer dagnabbit! And I have an opinion about my time in, and so, I express it.
The fallacy of logic that is common to every single "get over it" poster I've seen around here is that they mistake the Christian duty of warning others of evil with wallowing in the past, staying hurt and staying angry. These types of people obviously don't read the Bible. You read through any of the prophets in the OT, and they pretty much are speaking out against evil throughout the book. This argument is as ludicrous as saying "You know, Ezekiel, I think you have anger problems and are focusing on the past too much". This mindset smacks of still being duped and not seeing it.
Hopefully WS, I have answered the other side of your question. And, as GarthP used to say...Cheers!
You have an answer, yet you still do not understand.
It reminds me of all the sin that we saw amongst the believers in the Old Testament, the sin that went down in the First Century Church which the Apostle Paul addressed in the Church epistles. Nothing new under the sun dude.
Still comparing The Way to the first century church?
Reflecting on my years spent living in a Way commune has shown me such comparison is a cruel delusion.
. I have said it before and I will say it again. I believe that VP started out as a good guy who wanted to help others live the more than abundant life.
Wierwille deliberately took John 10:10 out of context and misrepresented its message despite his insistence on understanding scripture in light of its context.
Then he built an entire class/ministry around its misrepresentation.
I'm not so sure I can interpret that as "starting out good".
Like the Catholic Church, the Labor Unions, the charitable organizations who have abused their power, VP and the hierarchy in The Way abused their power. Just like countless HUMAN ORGANIZATIONS have done! The list goes on and on and on and on. The sins comitted in The Way come nowhere near the level committed by the Roman Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition. And yet, I don't hear much ranting here about the RC like I do TWI. Read the book "The People Of The Book", an amazing account of how the RCs persecuted Jews during the Inquisition. It was sad to learn that the RCs persecuted not only Christians who believed differently than them, but also Hebrews/Jews who didn't accept the Catholic religion.
I have no interest in comparing The Way to the RC Church.
Dear Mr Clay you said "But, I personally respect many of the things I learned in PFAL, The Word Of God that I learned and am appreciative of it until this day. I refuse to believe that I was a "duped automaton" as some here continue to try and convince others that they were in fact just that. I made my decision to be involved by the freedom of my will, and when things began to spiral out of control as Sin reared it's Ugly Head, I walked.
I say PFAL was intresting at first because I had NO knowledge of the bible and wanted answers so a "biblical research center"(hacking cough :wacko: )seemed right at the time
of my life in which I had a tender heart.
I realized as years went by and time wasted it was simply SPIT under a microscope and
I was in awe of spiritual germ warfare with darkness
My prayer is and will always be that people don't get caught up in TWI and the "friendly
firey darts and not so friendly as well.
I have been in your shoes so I don't judge you,I am glad your here
Still comparing The Way to the first century church?
Sigh.....No WS, I am not. I am simply comparing the sin that took down the FC Church and saying that it is no different than the sin found anywhere in the history of man, regardless of which organization gets/has gotten entangled in it. The results are always destructive and hurtful to varying degrees, and what happened in The Way is no different than the varying degrees in which sin has been hurtful throughout history. You may believe as you choose, and likewise, so will I. Cheers! :)
...And as for me, I prefer to take the good things that I learned, continue to utilize them, and discard that which I believe to be Biblically inaccurate, discard any bad memories which I chalk up to "sin nature/human nature" and help others to do the same if I can. I have said it before and I will say it again. I believe that VP started out as a good guy who wanted to help others live the more than abundant life, but quickly allowed his sin nature to rule as he "looked to the left and then to the right" and did not keep his "eyes turned upon Jesus". He had a weakness for women and succumbed to it, abusing his trust as a Minister. And I am in no way equating VP with King David, but David, a man after God's own heart, knocked up Uriah's wife and then had Uriah killed, which p**sed God off mightily! And God forgave David. I think God could also forgive VP, had VP asked. But we don't know if VP did that or not. Guess that's in God's ball park...
..
Funny you should bring that up – I remember from the Advanced Class of 1978, vp's version of David's sin and what angered God so much – it wasn't the adultery but that an UNBELIEVER killed Uriah during his return to the battlefront. I bought into his spin on that myself a long time ago – but I think if one removes the PFAL-colored glasses [that always cast vp & his teachings in a favorable light] and reviews all the details like Nathan confronting David about his adultery in II Samuel 12, they'll see what was the real issue with God. The whole point of Nathan's parable about the guy with a bunch of sheep stealing the one lone sheep of a neighbor addresses the sin of adultery.
And vp's other scripture twisting feat of "all the women of the kingdom technically belonged to the king anyway" that he casually mentions in passing in PFAL about this incident has been handled numerous times on various threads, so I won't get into that here – but will just repeat my earlier recommendation to read the various threads at Grease Spot.
Also there's a big difference between someone in a moment of weakness succumbs to a temptation and someone who is a repeat offender. It's the difference between impetuous or impulsive sin and premeditated sin. In vp's case, besides considering all his planning & orchestrating of situations/opportunities that one can assume went on [which would qualify as premeditated sin] – there's a whole other issue besides adultery that human decency must address - the fact that he was a sexual predator.
Understanding how this predatory system works depends on one's level of involvement with TWI. Your average TWI follower out in the field is not aware of the organization's dark underbelly. But the closer one gets to the support system of TWI – the more one sees what it takes to not only maintain a façade of a pristine Christian ministry but the indoctrinating elements that can sabotage the conscience and lay the groundwork for predators.
The reason there's an abundance of dark anecdotes and realizations of TWI's true nature after the fact - here at Grease Spot is because it's coming from folks who were WOWs, Fellow Laborers, Staff, Corps, etc. – i.e. people who were caught up in the inner workings of this predatory system.
A case in point – I've shared several times about the pajama party during my days of in-residence Family Corps – with vp showing his favorite porn video and making lewd comments to a sixteen year old girl. The difference in having the PFAL-colored glasses on or off can best be understood by thinking about the reaction of my pajama party incident by people in two different categories: TWI followers and folks who have never been in TWI [or have taken off the PFAL-colored glasses].
Before I came to Grease Spot I never thought about that incident in anyway other than a fond memory of how warm & personable vp was, being an example of being so spiritual one can handle anything and not sin. But after reading of the horror stories here and tossing the PFAL glasses – another insidious bit of machinery becomes apparent – the teachings & casual remarks addressed to leaders-in-training were designed to sedate the conscience, blur boundaries, and nullify the moral demands of Scripture. In this system – no matter where a person is in TWI's hierarchy – their actual role is that of either a predator, facilitator or victim.
History is full of ABUSES by religious organizations, and The Way, sadly, was/is no exception. Yet, it's THE ONE WE ALL HERE WERE INVOLVED WITH. Okay, so, what to do? Well, I say, and I know that this opinion is not welcome here-thus saith Oakespeare-that the best way to deal with these years gone by is to FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASSED AGAINST US, and leave it all in the dust as we move down Life's Highway to bigger and better things! WTF is so wrong with that? IMO, nothing...
What makes you think folks haven't forgiven here? Maybe you don't understand something – people can forgive someone who hurt them – even if the offender never asked for forgiveness. And once a person does forgive another – that does not resolve all the other issues generated in the mind of the offended person. But I believe the act of forgiveness is a step in the right direction for the offended one – now how long it will take to resolve those other things - only God knows.
But I think we miss the bigger picture of this scenario – what is the whole point of forgiveness? With God it is reconciliation to Him. Forgiveness among brethren is the road to their reconciliation also. It's a shame the TWI protocol negates all that. I also suggest you study the way Jesus said the church should handle transgressions among brethren in Matthew 18, TWI protocol negates that also.
But, I personally respect many of the things I learned in PFAL, The Word Of God that I learned and am appreciative of it until this day. I refuse to believe that I was a "duped automaton" as some here continue to try and convince others that they were in fact just that. I made my decision to be involved by the freedom of my will, and when things began to spiral out of control as Sin reared it's Ugly Head, I walked.
I never considered myself a "duped automaton" either – I got involved and stayed involved by the freedom of my will. Do you know why I continued to stay in TWI for 12 years? I was duped into thinking they were my only viable option to enjoy a fulfilled life – please refer to my quote below from "The Closing of the American Mind".
What about "I know it was bad, it was abusive and hurtful" do you not understand? The only difference between me and others here is the "time table" of when the evil set in and what to do about it now that the abuses have been made known. You don't need to convince me of the abuses.
I am very glad to hear that you have progressed so in your life to the point where you seem to be happy with where you are today.
One thing I would like to say is, we are all different. We have different personalities, we have different and personal hurts and wounds.
What takes one person to recover from in a year, may take another person 5 years. We all have our own personal recovery which no one can touch or judge. It's between God and I how fast or how slow I progress through those past years.
I left TWI in 1987 and I still come here. Believe me when I say, I am no where close to where I was back then. I have a life, I've worked through a ton of issues, I've forgiven, I am in ministry with no offshoot group of TWI....but in ministry to the poverty and homeless group of people. I also am a director of a group of people who love to sing for God. I believe we are to live our lives to make a difference in someone else's. BUT, for years I had nothing to give to anyone else....nothing. God had to heal and work with me as He could to bring me to this point. And that has taken 22 years. You may say, why do you come back here.....to share my life, my progress with others so that they may have HOPE. I went from suicidal, mixed up, confused, angry, and unforgiving to who I am today. That is totally God. And sometimes much to my surprise, something surfaces after all this time and I just want to "Talk" about it. Where am I to go but to a site where there are other people who have had the same experiences who can validate, or suggest, or help with what comes up??
In the beginning when I first started to come here GS saved my life literally...thanks Shellon.
People come here to empty their insides.....sometimes it takes a long time to do that, sometimes it doesn't. But, it happens eventually. Then there is room for the good. How they do that, when they do that and where they do that is their own business....I pray for recovery for all people who come to GS or who go other places.
I'll never "arrive" to a place where there is no other growth to achieve....This life is a journey and not a destination. I will continue to learn, uncover, recover, change, and grow until my last breath or until I see him Face to Face....
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ClayJay
I have stumbled upon another Way International "splinter group". There are many out there for sure. There's the Geerites, Stiffy, CFF, small groups in cities across America who used to be in The Way b
ClayJay
Yes, I heard those recordings. And yes, that was some bad ..... It happened. So, what's your point?
waysider
I'm just curious, Clay.
Have you listened to any of the following links?
If so, what is your reaction?
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/radio/episodes/the-road-to-the-letter-to-the-board-of-trustees-1987.html
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/radio/episodes/kristen-skedgell-on-losing-the-way.html
http://www.greasespotcafe.com/main2/radio/episodes/kristen-skedgell-more-on-losing-the-way.html
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Ham
You did put your opinions out on the world wide web for us rodent types to examine, didn't you?
don't underestimate the rodents.. who do you think really runs the world.
what you might be experiencing.. isn't analysis.. maybe its "we don't have to put up with your kind of subtle or not so subtle god like arrogance.."
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Ham
Either way.. let me be polite. "Welcome to Greasespot Cafe"
I hope your stay is as pleasant as possible..
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grand-daughter
Clay,
I would never say you have to do anything my way. For 1 thing honestly I'm still sorting out what my way really is. But I do know that you came in here and started blasting people calling this place a splinter group which in some strange way may or may not be true. However, I know for me this place has helped me to vent a little, hear other peoples stories so I didn't feel alone in my own and also be able to read some very good points about doctrine that I have never either considered or at least not allowed to mention in the group that I was in. So by all means pease do things your way but p[lease remember respect for others while you do it. :)
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rascal
No one was psycho analyzing you, that`s a pretty silly claim.... I have to say that it does seems rather ironic that you point your finger of accusation at folks who participate here as doing something wrong or unsavory....that you are some how an expert, qualified to analyze, judge, and condemn folks....somehow omnipotent in determining what good is or is not being derived from Grease spot.
What are your qualification to make these assessments Clay? What makes you think that it is your position to determine where God works and with whom?
Why would you want to obstruct the benefits others find in this venue?
Your insults and derision aside, my sadness for the limited scope of your understanding of what is accomplished and the caliber of the folks here was genuine.
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Oakspear
I would agree with Rascal in that in would behoove you to have the facts before venturing an opinion. Now, you can have an opinion, and you can share it without the facts, but the opinion carries a bit more weight when you know what you're talking about.
Another thing, being free to express an opinion doesn't mean that no one is going to disagree with you.
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ClayJay
Yes, I heard those recordings. And yes, that was some bad ..... It happened. So, what's your point?
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chockfull
There are a number of reasons GSC doesn't fit into the "splinter group" category.
1) No figurehead leadership. (Paw's nice and not the imposing cult leader type).
2) No membership. (Members are a cross-section of many Christian churches / orgs.)
3) Ecumenical in nature. (All participate - Christians to Atheists).
4) $$$ - no taught tithing / ABS / etc.
Now I'm starting to understand the "get over it" spiel. You don't want us to ruin your buzz, man. ;)
While most of us can understand and relate to an analogy of being in TWI like smoking dope in that both causes you to depart from reality, I don't think the positivity / negativity line of thought holds much water.
And this group stopped smoking dope in the '70's too. I wonder if that made them less positive.
Well, we don't go to fellowship together 3x per week, plus phone hookups, plus coords meetings, plus fax in leaders our schedules, plus spending all your time off and money on going to events where people teach you to write letters and you're taught the same stuff at a 5th grade level.
Actually I don't really see how anyone on this site does a lot of "hanging out". It's a discussion forum.
Actually the one thing you discuss I have "gotten over" from TWI involvement is resentment. Now I'm free to discuss facts, opinions, differences of viewpoints, etc.
Maybe you're projecting. Maybe it's you who ought to reconsider involvement with splinter groups. Actually the newbies just leaving TWI need it more so they know they aren't crazy and aren't the only ones who experienced what they did.
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JeffSjo
Insults Ham and Rascal,
Ignores it when people point out that insulting TWI victims is wrong,
Jumps into Greasespotters and the poop references with zeal,
Complains of being treated with meanness after insulting people yet praises those who treat him kindly, even though he has done nothing to earn the kindness.
I THINK I MAY KNOW WHAT HAPPENED TO OLDIESMAN AFTER ALL!
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penworks
Why are you here?
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chockfull
An elitist mindset that sounds just like TWI members. He hasn't yet grown out of that yet as we have.
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waysider
My question was twofold, Clay.
1. Have you heard them?
(You answered that you have.)
2. What is your reaction to them?
(I'm still waiting for this one to be answered.)
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ClayJay
It's simple Waysider. The .... that went down was bad. People got hurt. Sin got the "bit in it's teeth" and began to rule TWI until it crumbled. It reminds me of all the sin that we saw amongst the believers in the Old Testament, the sin that went down in the First Century Church which the Apostle Paul addressed in the Church epistles. Nothing new under the sun dude.
And as for me, I prefer to take the good things that I learned, continue to utilize them, and discard that which I believe to be Biblically inaccurate, discard any bad memories which I chalk up to "sin nature/human nature" and help others to do the same if I can. I have said it before and I will say it again. I believe that VP started out as a good guy who wanted to help others live the more than abundant life, but quickly allowed his sin nature to rule as he "looked to the left and then to the right" and did not keep his "eyes turned upon Jesus". He had a weakness for women and succumbed to it, abusing his trust as a Minister. And I am in no way equating VP with King David, but David, a man after God's own heart, knocked up Uriah's wife and then had Uriah killed, which p**sed God off mightily! And God forgave David. I think God could also forgive VP, had VP asked. But we don't know if VP did that or not. Guess that's in God's ball park. And, when the wealth began to flow in via the Biblical principle called tithing, he abused that also. A good thing gone bad. Like the Catholic Church, the Labor Unions, the charitable organizations who have abused their power, VP and the hierarchy in The Way abused their power. Just like countless HUMAN ORGANIZATIONS have done! The list goes on and on and on and on. The sins comitted in The Way come nowhere near the level committed by the Roman Catholic Church during the Spanish Inquisition. And yet, I don't hear much ranting here about the RC like I do TWI. Read the book "The People Of The Book", an amazing account of how the RCs persecuted Jews during the Inquisition. It was sad to learn that the RCs persecuted not only Christians who believed differently than them, but also Hebrews/Jews who didn't accept the Catholic religion.
History is full of ABUSES by religious organizations, and The Way, sadly, was/is no exception. Yet, it's THE ONE WE ALL HERE WERE INVOLVED WITH. Okay, so, what to do? Well, I say, and I know that this opinion is not welcome here-thus saith Oakespeare-that the best way to deal with these years gone by is to FORGIVE THOSE WHO TRESPASSED AGAINST US, and leave it all in the dust as we move down Life's Highway to bigger and better things! WTF is so wrong with that? IMO, nothing...
But, I personally respect many of the things I learned in PFAL, The Word Of God that I learned and am appreciative of it until this day. I refuse to believe that I was a "duped automaton" as some here continue to try and convince others that they were in fact just that. I made my decision to be involved by the freedom of my will, and when things began to spiral out of control as Sin reared it's Ugly Head, I walked.
I think it entirely unproductive to wallow in the Past, "get angry all over again" (which I have seen here alot), and I think that this site in many ways helps to perpetuate that "gettin' angry all over again" attitude. That's my opinion "and I'm sticking to it". Life's too short and too sweet to get angry about all of this stuff over and over again. Hey! I too was a Wayfer dagnabbit! And I have an opinion about my time in, and so, I express it.
Hopefully WS, I have answered the other side of your question. And, as GarthP used to say...Cheers!
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Bolshevik
oh, we don't need no website to get angry.
PFAL is The Word of God?
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chockfull
I'm sure if you had a website where victims of RC inquisitors frequented you would hear more about that. Here there are TWI victims. The problem with marginalizing evil and saying it's the same as all the other evil people experienced in the past is the same argument people use to stay involved with TWI as opposed to voting with their feet. I don't like evil, I vote with my feet, and I tell others about it.
Have they asked for forgiveness? I'm not aware of one single case where TWI leadership even comes close to admitting they are wrong. They blame the followers while perpetuating their sin. While we can forgive them we also have a Christian duty to warn others so they are not fooled. Wise as serpents harmless as doves.
I'm appreciative that TWI involvement helped me keep my head in the Bible - good stuff there to read. I think the rest of your statement is a straw man argument. Nobody is saying we were "duped automatons". Yes we were duped. Yes we probably committed sin and perhaps hurt others due to our support of sinful men and women. Being duped and emotionally bribed is one way people give up freedom of will. You were duped. You are the same - ignoring that fact does not help one heal.
The fallacy of logic that is common to every single "get over it" poster I've seen around here is that they mistake the Christian duty of warning others of evil with wallowing in the past, staying hurt and staying angry. These types of people obviously don't read the Bible. You read through any of the prophets in the OT, and they pretty much are speaking out against evil throughout the book. This argument is as ludicrous as saying "You know, Ezekiel, I think you have anger problems and are focusing on the past too much". This mindset smacks of still being duped and not seeing it.
You have an answer, yet you still do not understand.
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waysider
Some people see Wierwille as a guy who started out good and then went bad.
I see wierwille as a guy who started out bad and then went nuts.
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waysider
Still comparing The Way to the first century church?
Reflecting on my years spent living in a Way commune has shown me such comparison is a cruel delusion.
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waysider
Wierwille deliberately took John 10:10 out of context and misrepresented its message despite his insistence on understanding scripture in light of its context.
Then he built an entire class/ministry around its misrepresentation.
I'm not so sure I can interpret that as "starting out good".
I have no interest in comparing The Way to the RC Church.
The analogy is a "strawman" at best.
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cheranne
Dear Mr Clay you said "But, I personally respect many of the things I learned in PFAL, The Word Of God that I learned and am appreciative of it until this day. I refuse to believe that I was a "duped automaton" as some here continue to try and convince others that they were in fact just that. I made my decision to be involved by the freedom of my will, and when things began to spiral out of control as Sin reared it's Ugly Head, I walked.
I say PFAL was intresting at first because I had NO knowledge of the bible and wanted answers so a "biblical research center"(hacking cough :wacko: )seemed right at the time
of my life in which I had a tender heart.
I realized as years went by and time wasted it was simply SPIT under a microscope and
I was in awe of spiritual germ warfare with darkness
My prayer is and will always be that people don't get caught up in TWI and the "friendly
firey darts and not so friendly as well.
I have been in your shoes so I don't judge you,I am glad your here
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ClayJay
Sigh.....No WS, I am not. I am simply comparing the sin that took down the FC Church and saying that it is no different than the sin found anywhere in the history of man, regardless of which organization gets/has gotten entangled in it. The results are always destructive and hurtful to varying degrees, and what happened in The Way is no different than the varying degrees in which sin has been hurtful throughout history. You may believe as you choose, and likewise, so will I. Cheers! :)
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T-Bone
Funny you should bring that up – I remember from the Advanced Class of 1978, vp's version of David's sin and what angered God so much – it wasn't the adultery but that an UNBELIEVER killed Uriah during his return to the battlefront. I bought into his spin on that myself a long time ago – but I think if one removes the PFAL-colored glasses [that always cast vp & his teachings in a favorable light] and reviews all the details like Nathan confronting David about his adultery in II Samuel 12, they'll see what was the real issue with God. The whole point of Nathan's parable about the guy with a bunch of sheep stealing the one lone sheep of a neighbor addresses the sin of adultery.
And vp's other scripture twisting feat of "all the women of the kingdom technically belonged to the king anyway" that he casually mentions in passing in PFAL about this incident has been handled numerous times on various threads, so I won't get into that here – but will just repeat my earlier recommendation to read the various threads at Grease Spot.
Also there's a big difference between someone in a moment of weakness succumbs to a temptation and someone who is a repeat offender. It's the difference between impetuous or impulsive sin and premeditated sin. In vp's case, besides considering all his planning & orchestrating of situations/opportunities that one can assume went on [which would qualify as premeditated sin] – there's a whole other issue besides adultery that human decency must address - the fact that he was a sexual predator.
Understanding how this predatory system works depends on one's level of involvement with TWI. Your average TWI follower out in the field is not aware of the organization's dark underbelly. But the closer one gets to the support system of TWI – the more one sees what it takes to not only maintain a façade of a pristine Christian ministry but the indoctrinating elements that can sabotage the conscience and lay the groundwork for predators.
The reason there's an abundance of dark anecdotes and realizations of TWI's true nature after the fact - here at Grease Spot is because it's coming from folks who were WOWs, Fellow Laborers, Staff, Corps, etc. – i.e. people who were caught up in the inner workings of this predatory system.
A case in point – I've shared several times about the pajama party during my days of in-residence Family Corps – with vp showing his favorite porn video and making lewd comments to a sixteen year old girl. The difference in having the PFAL-colored glasses on or off can best be understood by thinking about the reaction of my pajama party incident by people in two different categories: TWI followers and folks who have never been in TWI [or have taken off the PFAL-colored glasses].
Before I came to Grease Spot I never thought about that incident in anyway other than a fond memory of how warm & personable vp was, being an example of being so spiritual one can handle anything and not sin. But after reading of the horror stories here and tossing the PFAL glasses – another insidious bit of machinery becomes apparent – the teachings & casual remarks addressed to leaders-in-training were designed to sedate the conscience, blur boundaries, and nullify the moral demands of Scripture. In this system – no matter where a person is in TWI's hierarchy – their actual role is that of either a predator, facilitator or victim.
What makes you think folks haven't forgiven here? Maybe you don't understand something – people can forgive someone who hurt them – even if the offender never asked for forgiveness. And once a person does forgive another – that does not resolve all the other issues generated in the mind of the offended person. But I believe the act of forgiveness is a step in the right direction for the offended one – now how long it will take to resolve those other things - only God knows.
But I think we miss the bigger picture of this scenario – what is the whole point of forgiveness? With God it is reconciliation to Him. Forgiveness among brethren is the road to their reconciliation also. It's a shame the TWI protocol negates all that. I also suggest you study the way Jesus said the church should handle transgressions among brethren in Matthew 18, TWI protocol negates that also.
I never considered myself a "duped automaton" either – I got involved and stayed involved by the freedom of my will. Do you know why I continued to stay in TWI for 12 years? I was duped into thinking they were my only viable option to enjoy a fulfilled life – please refer to my quote below from "The Closing of the American Mind".
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ClayJay
What about "I know it was bad, it was abusive and hurtful" do you not understand? The only difference between me and others here is the "time table" of when the evil set in and what to do about it now that the abuses have been made known. You don't need to convince me of the abuses.
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newlife
Hi Clay Jar,
I am very glad to hear that you have progressed so in your life to the point where you seem to be happy with where you are today.
One thing I would like to say is, we are all different. We have different personalities, we have different and personal hurts and wounds.
What takes one person to recover from in a year, may take another person 5 years. We all have our own personal recovery which no one can touch or judge. It's between God and I how fast or how slow I progress through those past years.
I left TWI in 1987 and I still come here. Believe me when I say, I am no where close to where I was back then. I have a life, I've worked through a ton of issues, I've forgiven, I am in ministry with no offshoot group of TWI....but in ministry to the poverty and homeless group of people. I also am a director of a group of people who love to sing for God. I believe we are to live our lives to make a difference in someone else's. BUT, for years I had nothing to give to anyone else....nothing. God had to heal and work with me as He could to bring me to this point. And that has taken 22 years. You may say, why do you come back here.....to share my life, my progress with others so that they may have HOPE. I went from suicidal, mixed up, confused, angry, and unforgiving to who I am today. That is totally God. And sometimes much to my surprise, something surfaces after all this time and I just want to "Talk" about it. Where am I to go but to a site where there are other people who have had the same experiences who can validate, or suggest, or help with what comes up??
In the beginning when I first started to come here GS saved my life literally...thanks Shellon.
People come here to empty their insides.....sometimes it takes a long time to do that, sometimes it doesn't. But, it happens eventually. Then there is room for the good. How they do that, when they do that and where they do that is their own business....I pray for recovery for all people who come to GS or who go other places.
I'll never "arrive" to a place where there is no other growth to achieve....This life is a journey and not a destination. I will continue to learn, uncover, recover, change, and grow until my last breath or until I see him Face to Face....
Shalom
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Shellon
You're welcome Newlife ~! I'll never be able to fully express my thankfulness that you're still here.
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