So, if an abusive and controlling organization makes long overdue changes because they were afraid of the consequences of their evil ways but does so in a manner that leaves them in control over what people do, have they really lost their control?
No doubt there were other changes made I just can't think of anymore at this time. But here's the kicker and pay attention here. In 2008, I heard from a first hand witness, that RFR said to the Pres Cab in a meeting that "she hates all the changes that have been made". If I understand correctly the person said this rant was in response to one of the HQ clergy attending their kids ballgame instead of going to the STS. The preferred (and coerced method) is for the mother to goto the event when it clashes with the service and the father to stay back to support the service. Apparently, RFR was livid that this happened and went on quite a long tirade that was somewhat incoherent. Yes there are forced changes that RFR and others wish had never happened. On the cover these changes appear to be a result of RFR making the ministry better - in reality they were forced by the law and she hates them and would prefer the old days before the Allen lawsuit.
So TWI apparantly is still run by a militant lesbian control freak.
And the appeal of subjecting oneself to this kind of leadership and example is what, exactly? Rhetorical question, of course.
Another change, though minor, was one I which made a large impact on my life at the time: Before this, I was not permitted to jog on Wierwille or any other off-grounds roads. While petty, it still irked me. I remember being reproved by a cabinet member for choosing to venture onto the dangerous two-lane of Wierwille Rd. Now, folks can go where they please. Just an example of hysterical paranoia/mistrust of outsiders by the sequestered members.
Though these changes have been made (and most of them were suggested by lawyers post-Allen lawsuit to avoid appearances of cultish/coercive behavior), the old mindsets of the calendar-submitting, travel-restricting, pregnancy policy days are still VERY prevalent among many, especially those who first assumed 'oversight' roles during these time periods. I don't think these will ever disappear, because they've been passed down through progeny. It would take several generations for it to be filtered out completely. Before this, however, I believe TWI will finally die due to:
(1) More litigation or a state-sponsored investigation leading to a legal proceeding that could end it.
(2) Monetary funds running down
(3) With each generation of those 'Born in the Word,' to use some dated WaySpeak, a percentage will leave the organization (usually college years, which makes perfect sense). The remainder is forced to find spouses within followers, as we know that marriage outside TWI is looked down upon (formerly nearly prohibitive/evidence of 'devilish influence). Because very few newcomers are entering TWI's ranks, this limits the spouses for propitiation of the species to the families who've been in for some time (legacies furthering with each generation). Eventually, inbreeding will really take its toll.
Though the third theory may seem a bit bizarre, its points are biting.
Finally, it's interesting how the changes have come about in order to avoid appearances of an organization exhibiting cult-like/coercive behavior (Ref. I Thess. 5:22--avoiding all appearance of evil). Without any outside reference at HQ, its funny how what appears very normal and spiritual to an insider is obviously evidence of evil to one on the outside.
I was told that within the last year a cabinet member has done some research leading to the conclusion that 'Owe no man anything' is taken WAY out of context (no pun intended).
Of course, it's hard to go back on what had been taught for years. . . unless of course you have a pair and can own up to your mistakes, just like is expected of any professional in any research field.
I was told that within the last year a cabinet member has done some research leading to the conclusion that 'Owe no man anything' is taken WAY out of context (no pun intended).
Of course, it's hard to go back on what had been taught for years. . . unless of course you have a pair and can own up to your mistakes, just like is expected of any professional in any research field.
I really don't see why it needs any "research". Look at the context where owe no man anything comes from. It tells you to honor to whom honer is due, custom to whom custom is due - to owe no man anything is to not with hold what is due in the particular situation. They further support the error with old Testament truths regarding debt. I'm not saying debt is a good thing, I am for financial freedom. But my God, they won't let people into their precious advanced class with debt. Really, they are doing them a favor by not letting them attend...lol
Who were they with? Who selected the interviewees? Were they selected at random, and by the interviewers, or were they selected by TWI? What "priming" went on before the visit of the interviewers? Wonder how free the interviewees felt at saying what they themselves wanted to say? How expert were the interviewers at sussing out egregious behavior (that which is actually "normal" at HQ)? (Wonder what background information they had been given!)
Was it only at HQ or did staff elsewhere (Gunnison? Indiana campus?) get to play, too? What about believers (esp Corps) on the field; were they interviewed too? Because they also came under severe restrictions.
Bearing in mind that we all got to accept "normal" as the way things were done at HQ concurrently with thinking outsiders just wouldn't understand, it wouldn't be surprising if there were a degree of cover-up, not fully disclosing, or fudged answers. Especially if there were some paranoia about the results getting back to RFR.
Is this set of interviews the precursor to the "softer, kinder" TWI? Not merely the appointment of a new leader (RFR)?
It's good that there was some relaxation of the stranglehold, but from what OldSkool and YourMum say, sounds like it might be a temporary release in order to get a tighter grip later.
Who were they with? Who selected the interviewees? Were they selected at random, and by the interviewers, or were they selected by TWI? What "priming" went on before the visit of the interviewers? Wonder how free the interviewees felt at saying what they themselves wanted to say? How expert were the interviewers at sussing out egregious behavior (that which is actually "normal" at HQ)? (Wonder what background information they had been given!)
I don't know who was interviewed. They had free access to HQ and the staff were instructed to be open and honest. Other than that I don't know much more.
Was it only at HQ or did staff elsewhere (Gunnison? Indiana campus?) get to play, too? What about believers (esp Corps) on the field; were they interviewed too? Because they also came under severe restrictions.
Indiana was sold sometime ago. I do not believe Gunnison was involved, but I could be wrong about that. I do not think any field way corps were involved, but again, I could be wrong. Rosalie is really good at telling people only what she thinks they need to know.
Is this set of interviews the precursor to the "softer, kinder" TWI? Not merely the appointment of a new leader (RFR)?
I wouldn't say precursor. I would judge it to be part of a whole series of events related to the lawsuit. Really, the Allen lawsuit was the precursor to what is there now.
It's good that there was some relaxation of the stranglehold, but from what OldSkool and YourMum say, sounds like it might be a temporary release in order to get a tighter grip later.
In reality, the strangle hold is still very much in place. RFR is still a professional micro manager who hides herself behind others. She rules the BOD with an iron fist and does not tolerate others not following her party line. They have learned how to be a coercive, controlling cult and narrowly stay in the confines of laws that govern a 501 c3 non-profit organization. It is a preservation society. They have enshrined VPW and effectively built their new religion around him and taken whatever steps necessary to keep themselves under the radar while protecting themselves. Their lawyers have a major say in what happens there if you ask me.
I feel sorry for the folks that live under the tyranny of the evil empire.
TWI has NO authority over anyone's life that has not been granted them with express consent of the person they presume to govern.
Most of the innies stay there out of a misguided zeal, supposedly in service to God. The real tragedy is that in practice TWI have promoted their organization into the role rightfully occupied by Jesus Christ as the head of the body. The BOD behave as if they are the ones directing the affairs of the Church. They have demoted Jesus to a name sake and mediator who is seated on God's right hand. I believe the bible teaches that there is power in the name of Jesus Christ, that there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, that Jesus is seated on the right hand of God. Those are only three things that describe his current function. TWI demoted Jesus while God promoted him. HE is not the ABSENT CHRIST!
I'm not trying to start a doctrinal debate, I'm pointing out the glaring differences in what the bible teaches and what they teach / practice and how those teachings cause others to submit to their heavy, draconian rule.
I was told that within the last year a cabinet member has done some research leading to the conclusion that 'Owe no man anything' is taken WAY out of context (no pun intended).
Of course, it's hard to go back on what had been taught for years. . . unless of course you have a pair and can own up to your mistakes, just like is expected of any professional in any research field.
I knew of someone who was a specialist in the financial realm. This person was trusted with a lot of responsibility at HQ. This person sent in a paper when Rozilla and company requested research on debt. This person had a great presentation, plus their background in finance should have given them some recognition. But their ideas were poo-pooed. They were being watched by the LC, had lies told about them to other people in their Branch, and they left. They were treated very badly.
This family dealt with cancer in their family while on Staff. They were treated like $h*t. It was sad. They were told to go back and find out where they let the adversary in. That is so heartless when someone is dealing with a disease like that.
Why is DM making policy? Is it because she couldn't give up being the wife of the president? She still wants to assume that role?
From what I understand, her and Rozilla were doing that when LCM was prez. Where do you think the debt policy, scheduling mandates, and other onerous things came from?
"In June 1998, the Board of Trustees learned Martindale had a sexual relationship with another follower of The Way. Board members 'chastised' Martindale and took steps to guard against another incident. The board learned of the encounters with Allen in March 1999, but the motion explained that since those encounters predated June 1998 and the measures the board took then, board members decided no additional action was necessary."
I was told by a first hand source that Rosi and DM took advantage of the situation and used it to enact policy. LCM was a controlling monster, no doubt but in the end he was out-Foxed.
As for Donna, she may as well be the wife of the prez. Apparently it's a lifetime assignment. All cynicism aside - DM is actively involved in running the ministry and is an adviser, silent partner, or whatever - but she is helping RozaLIE run things. She is listed as an officer and attends all the director group meetings (that's what they started calling themselves recently) and is in all the prez cab meetings as pres cab. Anyone who had ever worked close to those two and observed some of the peculiarities with them can figure it out. However, I got it first hand from someone who is a lot closer to the situation than I ever was. Nottawayfer, you can PM me and I'll fill ya in.
Doesn't really look like forced by the law. Looks more like lawyers telling them they should it or be prepared for more lawsuits like the Allen's.
I do believe the Allen's scared the dang out of them.
Thank God they did. I'm not sure where I'd be if they hadn't spoke up and did what they did. It sure started me to thinking things weren't as I thought they were. There was no Prevailing Word Living like I thought. It was a LIE.
RFR and DM debt policy is killing them and they still think it's biblical.
So I take it that twi still punishes wayfers who decide to buy a house?When I was in I referred to it as punishment and a bc said "It's not punishment it's a standard".The dictionary I have defines punishment as inflicting a penalty for an offense.Buy a house no class for you and no fellowship coordinating for you.When I was in there were so many people that were in their late 40's and 50's who had sold their house (under lcm's reign) and were so upset that they had done so,I would be too,most people are paying their house off by the time they are in their 40's and 50's and can sell it for a profit or whatever.twi is so decieved by their debt policy and so many other things.
So I take it that twi still punishes wayfers who decide to buy a house?When I was in I referred to it as punishment and a bc said "It's not punishment it's a standard".The dictionary I have defines punishment as inflicting a penalty for an offense.Buy a house no class for you and no fellowship coordinating for you.When I was in there were so many people that were in their late 40's and 50's who had sold their house (under lcm's reign) and were so upset that they had done so,I would be too,most people are paying their house off by the time they are in their 40's and 50's and can sell it for a profit or whatever.twi is so decieved by their debt policy and so many other things.
So to phrase this in other terms that the idiot bc can put together, "punishment is the standard". To go along wtih "leadership controlling follwers lives is the standard". They may not like the PR that this represents, yet the truth is undeniable
So to phrase this in other terms that the idiot bc can put together, "punishment is the standard". To go along wtih "leadership controlling follwers lives is the standard". They may not like the PR that this represents, yet the truth is undeniable
Thanks Chockfull,well put.Another one they used to say was "If you want a house why not just believe God for it".I'm thinking wow thanks for that great impartation of wisdom,God please give me the $90,000 I need for a house because I prefer to sit on my a$$ and do nothing and also the biblical research,teaching and fellowship ministry I freely avail myself to does not allow an individual to think for themselves.
Thanks Chockfull,well put.Another one they used to say was "If you want a house why not just believe God for it".I'm thinking wow thanks for that great impartation of wisdom,God please give me the $90,000 I need for a house because I prefer to sit on my a$ and do nothing and also the biblical research,teaching and fellowship ministry I freely avail myself to does not allow an individual to think for themselves.
I want to live where $90,000 gets someone a house! :)
Remember the Chalet? Not too shabby for a dwelling place. . . . came with free labor . . a bunch of peons as nanny's, cooks, gardeners and maids. Guess someone knew how to scam believe for abundance.
To think. . . . poor Jesus. . . . hanging with the sinners, washing feet and no place to lay His head. He should have believed God better.
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GT
Doesn't really look like forced by the law. Looks more like lawyers telling them they should it or be prepared for more lawsuits like the Allen's.
I do believe the Allen's scared the dang out of them.
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OldSkool
Good distinction. They are scared to death of another lawsuit where they are the defendant in matters such as these.
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JeffSjo
TWO-CENTS WARNING
______________________________
So, if an abusive and controlling organization makes long overdue changes because they were afraid of the consequences of their evil ways but does so in a manner that leaves them in control over what people do, have they really lost their control?
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chockfull
So TWI apparantly is still run by a militant lesbian control freak.
And the appeal of subjecting oneself to this kind of leadership and example is what, exactly? Rhetorical question, of course.
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yourmom
OldSkool touched on most of the changes made. . .
Another change, though minor, was one I which made a large impact on my life at the time: Before this, I was not permitted to jog on Wierwille or any other off-grounds roads. While petty, it still irked me. I remember being reproved by a cabinet member for choosing to venture onto the dangerous two-lane of Wierwille Rd. Now, folks can go where they please. Just an example of hysterical paranoia/mistrust of outsiders by the sequestered members.
Though these changes have been made (and most of them were suggested by lawyers post-Allen lawsuit to avoid appearances of cultish/coercive behavior), the old mindsets of the calendar-submitting, travel-restricting, pregnancy policy days are still VERY prevalent among many, especially those who first assumed 'oversight' roles during these time periods. I don't think these will ever disappear, because they've been passed down through progeny. It would take several generations for it to be filtered out completely. Before this, however, I believe TWI will finally die due to:
(1) More litigation or a state-sponsored investigation leading to a legal proceeding that could end it.
(2) Monetary funds running down
(3) With each generation of those 'Born in the Word,' to use some dated WaySpeak, a percentage will leave the organization (usually college years, which makes perfect sense). The remainder is forced to find spouses within followers, as we know that marriage outside TWI is looked down upon (formerly nearly prohibitive/evidence of 'devilish influence). Because very few newcomers are entering TWI's ranks, this limits the spouses for propitiation of the species to the families who've been in for some time (legacies furthering with each generation). Eventually, inbreeding will really take its toll.
Though the third theory may seem a bit bizarre, its points are biting.
Finally, it's interesting how the changes have come about in order to avoid appearances of an organization exhibiting cult-like/coercive behavior (Ref. I Thess. 5:22--avoiding all appearance of evil). Without any outside reference at HQ, its funny how what appears very normal and spiritual to an insider is obviously evidence of evil to one on the outside.
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OldSkool
RFR and DM debt policy is killing them and they still think it's biblical.
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yourmom
I was told that within the last year a cabinet member has done some research leading to the conclusion that 'Owe no man anything' is taken WAY out of context (no pun intended).
Of course, it's hard to go back on what had been taught for years. . . unless of course you have a pair and can own up to your mistakes, just like is expected of any professional in any research field.
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GT
I believe it's ok to use Rosalie Rivenbark and Donna Martindale's full name here (like I did so Google will pick up on it
)
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OldSkool
I really don't see why it needs any "research". Look at the context where owe no man anything comes from. It tells you to honor to whom honer is due, custom to whom custom is due - to owe no man anything is to not with hold what is due in the particular situation. They further support the error with old Testament truths regarding debt. I'm not saying debt is a good thing, I am for financial freedom. But my God, they won't let people into their precious advanced class with debt. Really, they are doing them a favor by not letting them attend...lol
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Twinky
These interviews...
Who were they with? Who selected the interviewees? Were they selected at random, and by the interviewers, or were they selected by TWI? What "priming" went on before the visit of the interviewers? Wonder how free the interviewees felt at saying what they themselves wanted to say? How expert were the interviewers at sussing out egregious behavior (that which is actually "normal" at HQ)? (Wonder what background information they had been given!)
Was it only at HQ or did staff elsewhere (Gunnison? Indiana campus?) get to play, too? What about believers (esp Corps) on the field; were they interviewed too? Because they also came under severe restrictions.
Bearing in mind that we all got to accept "normal" as the way things were done at HQ concurrently with thinking outsiders just wouldn't understand, it wouldn't be surprising if there were a degree of cover-up, not fully disclosing, or fudged answers. Especially if there were some paranoia about the results getting back to RFR.
Is this set of interviews the precursor to the "softer, kinder" TWI? Not merely the appointment of a new leader (RFR)?
It's good that there was some relaxation of the stranglehold, but from what OldSkool and YourMum say, sounds like it might be a temporary release in order to get a tighter grip later.
Cult experts ... (snort!!!)
:wacko::excl:
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OldSkool
I don't know who was interviewed. They had free access to HQ and the staff were instructed to be open and honest. Other than that I don't know much more.
Indiana was sold sometime ago. I do not believe Gunnison was involved, but I could be wrong about that. I do not think any field way corps were involved, but again, I could be wrong. Rosalie is really good at telling people only what she thinks they need to know.
I wouldn't say precursor. I would judge it to be part of a whole series of events related to the lawsuit. Really, the Allen lawsuit was the precursor to what is there now.
In reality, the strangle hold is still very much in place. RFR is still a professional micro manager who hides herself behind others. She rules the BOD with an iron fist and does not tolerate others not following her party line. They have learned how to be a coercive, controlling cult and narrowly stay in the confines of laws that govern a 501 c3 non-profit organization. It is a preservation society. They have enshrined VPW and effectively built their new religion around him and taken whatever steps necessary to keep themselves under the radar while protecting themselves. Their lawyers have a major say in what happens there if you ask me.
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T-Bone
Thanks for sharing that stuff Old Skool & Your Mom .. . it's just sad.. .I feel sorry for the folks that live under the tyranny of the evil empire.
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OldSkool
TWI has NO authority over anyone's life that has not been granted them with express consent of the person they presume to govern.
Most of the innies stay there out of a misguided zeal, supposedly in service to God. The real tragedy is that in practice TWI have promoted their organization into the role rightfully occupied by Jesus Christ as the head of the body. The BOD behave as if they are the ones directing the affairs of the Church. They have demoted Jesus to a name sake and mediator who is seated on God's right hand. I believe the bible teaches that there is power in the name of Jesus Christ, that there is one mediator between God and man, the man Christ Jesus, that Jesus is seated on the right hand of God. Those are only three things that describe his current function. TWI demoted Jesus while God promoted him. HE is not the ABSENT CHRIST!
I'm not trying to start a doctrinal debate, I'm pointing out the glaring differences in what the bible teaches and what they teach / practice and how those teachings cause others to submit to their heavy, draconian rule.
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Nottawayfer
I knew of someone who was a specialist in the financial realm. This person was trusted with a lot of responsibility at HQ. This person sent in a paper when Rozilla and company requested research on debt. This person had a great presentation, plus their background in finance should have given them some recognition. But their ideas were poo-pooed. They were being watched by the LC, had lies told about them to other people in their Branch, and they left. They were treated very badly.
This family dealt with cancer in their family while on Staff. They were treated like $h*t. It was sad. They were told to go back and find out where they let the adversary in. That is so heartless when someone is dealing with a disease like that.
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Nottawayfer
Why is DM making policy? Is it because she couldn't give up being the wife of the president? She still wants to assume that role?
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OldSkool
From what I understand, her and Rozilla were doing that when LCM was prez. Where do you think the debt policy, scheduling mandates, and other onerous things came from?
I was told by a first hand source that Rosi and DM took advantage of the situation and used it to enact policy. LCM was a controlling monster, no doubt but in the end he was out-Foxed.
As for Donna, she may as well be the wife of the prez. Apparently it's a lifetime assignment. All cynicism aside - DM is actively involved in running the ministry and is an adviser, silent partner, or whatever - but she is helping RozaLIE run things. She is listed as an officer and attends all the director group meetings (that's what they started calling themselves recently) and is in all the prez cab meetings as pres cab. Anyone who had ever worked close to those two and observed some of the peculiarities with them can figure it out. However, I got it first hand from someone who is a lot closer to the situation than I ever was. Nottawayfer, you can PM me and I'll fill ya in.
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Nottawayfer
Thank God they did. I'm not sure where I'd be if they hadn't spoke up and did what they did. It sure started me to thinking things weren't as I thought they were. There was no Prevailing Word Living like I thought. It was a LIE.
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mudflaps
So I take it that twi still punishes wayfers who decide to buy a house?When I was in I referred to it as punishment and a bc said "It's not punishment it's a standard".The dictionary I have defines punishment as inflicting a penalty for an offense.Buy a house no class for you and no fellowship coordinating for you.When I was in there were so many people that were in their late 40's and 50's who had sold their house (under lcm's reign) and were so upset that they had done so,I would be too,most people are paying their house off by the time they are in their 40's and 50's and can sell it for a profit or whatever.twi is so decieved by their debt policy and so many other things.
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Oakspear
sorry...wrong thread
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chockfull
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mudflaps
Thanks Chockfull,well put.Another one they used to say was "If you want a house why not just believe God for it".I'm thinking wow thanks for that great impartation of wisdom,God please give me the $90,000 I need for a house because I prefer to sit on my a$$ and do nothing and also the biblical research,teaching and fellowship ministry I freely avail myself to does not allow an individual to think for themselves.
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Ham
They are supposed to be a "how to" *ministry*. Anybody ever publish in the rag, or teach a sns "how to believe for a house"?
Or do they cite the rare incident where a "believer" gets a house by inheritance or something?
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Ham
Maybe its another way to "separate" da household from the rest of society..
try explaining to someone outside da walls..
"and WHY did you sell your house? You had a good job.. kept payments up.."
"*ahem*, well.. my church told me to do it.."
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geisha779
I want to live where $90,000 gets someone a house! :)
Remember the Chalet? Not too shabby for a dwelling place. . . . came with free labor . . a bunch of peons as nanny's, cooks, gardeners and maids. Guess someone knew how to scam believe for abundance.
To think. . . . poor Jesus. . . . hanging with the sinners, washing feet and no place to lay His head. He should have believed God better.
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