How does that explain Wierwille's assertion that "it works for saint and sinner alike."?
It doesn't, that came from Levay's work. Really, that is a humanist concept, not biblical, except as it applies to salvation. The sinner can trust God for his salvation. I guess if God promised something directly to a sinner he could also apply the law of believing, but I doubt if he would.
I think I have a better image for what I was trying to say in the last post.
My son gets an allowance, but it is conditional. There are certain chores that he has to do. That is the law, if he does the chores he gets the allowance. However, there are times when because of school commitments, or time changes within our family that he cannot perform the chores. It isn't that he doesn't want to, but for some reason he is unable to do so. If I, as a father, am hard-nosed about the chores then by the law I set down in my house he should not get the allowance. But I know that he would have performed them if it had been possible. As a father I superseed my law and give him his allowance anyway. There are even times when I give him additional money just because I love him and he is my son.
In otherwords, he can perform the chores and he will always get his allowance, every time. But I can choose to give him his allowance even if he doesn't perform the chores if I so choose. Same with the "law of believing." We can opperate the law and get the results God promised, but he is the father and looks at our heart. He knows our heart and may give us the result anyway.
I would agree to a point with the list posted above except that what is available MUST BE based on a specific promis of God.. .
Our discussion does lack specificity. It might help if you give a specific example of promise or some believing & receiving teaching and elaborate on the point you've been making.
.. .As far as fear being the reverse of believing or trust. I still stand by it. However since there is no specific promise attached to fear, it is without power except in the way it holds one back, or tricks someone into doing something stuipid, when you wouldn't normally.
You've brought up a good point here. I don't buy into the fear rap anymore. My little pop-psychology on fear is as follows: there's two kinds of fear: normal self-preservation type fears & imagined fears; TWI really got these two mixed up in teachings and applications:
Normal self-preservation type fears - in the face of legitimate health, safety & security concerns TWI encouraged acts of bravado, throwing caution to the wind, being reckless in our faith – maybe even tempting the Lord ["renewed mind recklessness" was a well-known phrase] - perhaps best exemplified in having Corps hitch to/from LEAD.
Imagined or groundless type fears – vp had a knack for generating fear in even his most devoted followers. It was a great tool for manipulating & intimidating folks. fear of devil spirits, afraid our believing could fail, or even afraid of fear itself. Bah! The only thing there ever was to fear was giving vp a microphone.
.. .Why do we have to do more to receive from God? The answer is simple, we have gotten out of the habit of trusting God. Why do bad things happen, because of the curse. I have heard of areas people have not had as much science taught them, where recieving from God is seems to be much easier.
If you take what is posted above it makes sense. If you take the bad stuff as not promises but stuff that just happens because of the curse, it makes sense. If you enlarge on this as TWI did in it's teachings and try to apply it to issues not specificly promised in the Word of God, you have a form of Humanism. What is interesting is that if you have ever studied the Satanic Bible by Anton Levay, you will find these same principles promoted. He teaches believing = receiving without God being in the picture. God must be in the picture, and God often superseeds your faith to get us through. So in reality there are times when we will recieve dispite our belieivng, trust, faith, whatever you want to call it, just because God loves us.
.. .
I have also unfortunatly seen people, myself included, who say the right words, and to all outward appearance seem to believe and trust in God and yet don't receive their healing. The reason is they really don't believe.
It's not as hard as it sounds. We make it too difficult. There are a lot of peole who are teaching believing and receiving out there, not just TWI. Most of them try to keep God in the picture, but they don't always succeed or our minds only hear part of the teaching and we go off half cocked and fall flat on our faces.
Fear on the other hand, is not really believing. It is the opposite of believing or trust. By including it in the Law of Believing, (or faith, trust and confidence) the waters are muddied.
Basicly the law of believing, (but not as stated by TWI) works. but God can superseed it. Why he does in some cases and not in others...I don't know.
But perhaps you are right, we should take the "law" out of believing. The law always causes us to focus on our lack of ability and brings failures. It is God's grace and mercy that really brings about the result through what Jesus did on the cross. Perhaps, rather than call it "a law" we should just say, "trust and love God and He will bring His promises to pass in your life." To me that is the real law of believing.
It's not as hard as it sounds. We make it too difficult. There are a lot of peole who are teaching believing and receiving out there, not just TWI. Most of them try to keep God in the picture, but they don't always succeed or our minds only hear part of the teaching and we go off half cocked and fall flat on our faces.
Actually I think there's an underlying issue with a believing & receiving doctrine that is supposed to keep God in the picture – in that there's an assumption of other things that may not even belong in the picture. Maybe the more the sovereignty of God fills up this mental picture - instead of how we think things should work - we'd probably enjoy life a lot more and be content with what we do have.
The picture analogy is indeed apropos for analyzing this "doctrine" – it seems to me that there's always a subtle shift of focus from God to OUR faith. Whereby God is neither the basis nor object of our faith – but all that one has developed thus far in their walk seems to be the grounds for their confidence and the object of their faith is the thing they want. Seems like such a game of fooling ourselves - talk about how much God is in the picture - but in practice there's a lot more attention given to "believing", positive confessions, SITing, or whatever the latest "spiritual" gimmick is.
You'd think after experiencing enough failures some folks might re-think this supposed biblical process. The believing & receiving doctrine relies heavily on assumptions, sheer speculation, & dubious theories imho.
Fear on the other hand, is not really believing. It is the opposite of believing or trust. By including it in the Law of Believing, (or faith, trust and confidence) the waters are muddied.
Maybe the waters are muddied by superimposing a complex process - all the dos & don'ts of the believing & receiving system of thought. People can prove just about anything from the Bible.
Why do the "believing & receiving" ministries assume there's all these "promises" in the Bible just waiting to be cashed in – and their secret to cashing in on them is a process that one comes to understand by "Scripture build up" and reading between the lines. The Bible isn't laid out like a textbook - everything on one topic is in just one chapter. And there's no God-breathed index, graphs or pie charts.
However, it does seem like the simple Christian truths are in plain sight - and locked in by context to boot! Jesus is Lord, Jesus is resurrected, adultery is sin, God is love, love my neighbor as myself. You can't miss it and it doesn't take a lot of brain power or scriptural acrobatics to grasp the basic idea of those passages.
On page 79, in one of my favorite books on systematic theology, "Christian Theology" by Millard Erickson - is something I feel is important for students of the Bible to keep in mind - the degrees of authority of theological statements. The first category - a direct statement of Scripture - like my examples above - are to be accorded the greatest weight. But as we move away from direct statements to things garnered through an intellectual process - the weight of authority becomes less and less. Direct implications to probable implications to inductive conclusions to inferences from the general revelation to outright speculation - all involve an additional step - our logic - which carries with it the possibility of interpretation error, faulty assumption, etc.
The typical mindset of PFAL grads is to lump everything vp said into the first category - like it was all direct statements of Scripture and give it the highest weight of authority as well - when probably a lot of the points he makes on believing alone fall mostly into outright speculation category.
Who says fear is the opposite of believing? Let's say a guy is brandishing a firearm in a crowded bar. Do I follow my self-preservation instinct [which is basically a FEAR of injury or death] and do something smart like leave that place. Or should I keep that fear in check by my believing - throw caution to the wind - I'll show this guy & crowd I'm not afraid of anything.
I'm not sure that there are that many promises to believe certainly not as many as many would have you think. God has said, "by his stripes we are healed" so I can believe that statment. But I must remember that I am putting my faith in the one who made the promise; that He will stand behind it and not in my ability to believe His promise. We are also promised that God will meet our physical needs. It doesn't say wants. He will give us wisdom etc. He doesn't promise us a new car, a new house, a new boat etc.
The fact is that many of God's promises are broad in nature. Salvation is the only completly specific one. Where people get confused is that different people have different needs, and different people have different ideas of what they need. To furture confuse the issue. People also think they need something that they don't really need and would be a distaction from there relationship with God if they had it.
I like the person who talked about self preservation fears. Some fears make sense and it is stupid to ignore them unless specificly directed to by God. But I also no fear can freeze you in your tracks. A fear of heights can be helpful, but for a long time I had an unreasonable fear of heights. I would hug the walls in building with stairways that went around the a large open area. I have been unable to move because of fear of falling dispite the nearest ledge being over 200 ft from me.
In regards to specificity I will share a situation in my life where I used my faith like a tool to receive a promise of God. First I would say that God has promised healing, I believe this, as long as we put our trust in God and not our own ability to believe him. I will also say up front that in this example there was no one else around, so you have only my word that it happened. Whether you believe it or not is up to you. I fell down a small flight of stairs. The kind with the open back and my leg went through when I went down. I broke my leg. While I didn't go to the hospital for it, it was obvious that it was broken. I had bone sticking through the opening in my leg. There was no one around to ask for help. I remember looking up and saying to myself. "Well, now you've done it. Your only hope is God." So I prayed. I prayed the verses that have to do with healing. I prayed verses about trustin God. Then I said something like, (it has been a number of years) God, you said you can heal me and I know it is your will. I trust that you will honor your word and heal this leg." I was gasping in pain the whole time. I watched as the bone slipped back through the cut and into place, the pain was leaving and the wound was beginning to heal and finally healed completly. I got up and walked back up the stairs and into the house. I had used my faith like a tool applied to my broken bone.
But I don't always get that result. Much of the time I still listen to the symptoms more than God's promises. I have a heck of a time with colds. I'm not saying that I haven't been healed of a cold, but it has almost always been by God's grace. Like many of you here, I was taught to believing in my own ability to believe and that doesn't yeild the desired results. What I do is trust that God will bring his word to pass.
Regarding the "Law of believing" I believe it, but not the way TWI taught it. Believing is really not the right word for what I am trying to say. I guess you could say I believe the "law of having confidence and trust in God".
I once heard a story, and I don't know if it is true or not, I suspect it is more a parable, about a tribe in Africa that had completely converted to Christianity. They were well known among the missonaries for their trust in God. They were split by a deep river and it was not uncommon for them to walk on the water from one side to other. After a number of years a missonary revisited them and asked about their ability to walk on the water. Their leader said, "we don't do that anymore, we have built a bridge." The bridge met their need just as well or maybe better than their ability to walk on the water.
I'm not sure that there are that many promises to believe certainly not as many as many would have you think. God has said, "by his stripes we are healed" so I can believe that statment. But I must remember that I am putting my faith in the one who made the promise; that He will stand behind it and not in my ability to believe His promise. We are also promised that God will meet our physical needs. It doesn't say wants. He will give us wisdom etc. He doesn't promise us a new car, a new house, a new boat etc.
The fact is that many of God's promises are broad in nature. Salvation is the only completly specific one. Where people get confused is that different people have different needs, and different people have different ideas of what they need. To furture confuse the issue. People also think they need something that they don't really need and would be a distaction from there relationship with God if they had it.
I like the person who talked about self preservation fears. Some fears make sense and it is stupid to ignore them unless specificly directed to by God. But I also no fear can freeze you in your tracks. A fear of heights can be helpful, but for a long time I had an unreasonable fear of heights. I would hug the walls in building with stairways that went around the a large open area. I have been unable to move because of fear of falling dispite the nearest ledge being over 200 ft from me.
In regards to specificity I will share a situation in my life where I used my faith like a tool to receive a promise of God. First I would say that God has promised healing, I believe this, as long as we put our trust in God and not our own ability to believe him. I will also say up front that in this example there was no one else around, so you have only my word that it happened. Whether you believe it or not is up to you. I fell down a small flight of stairs. The kind with the open back and my leg went through when I went down. I broke my leg. While I didn't go to the hospital for it, it was obvious that it was broken. I had bone sticking through the opening in my leg. There was no one around to ask for help. I remember looking up and saying to myself. "Well, now you've done it. Your only hope is God." So I prayed. I prayed the verses that have to do with healing. I prayed verses about trustin God. Then I said something like, (it has been a number of years) God, you said you can heal me and I know it is your will. I trust that you will honor your word and heal this leg." I was gasping in pain the whole time. I watched as the bone slipped back through the cut and into place, the pain was leaving and the wound was beginning to heal and finally healed completly. I got up and walked back up the stairs and into the house. I had used my faith like a tool applied to my broken bone.
But I don't always get that result. Much of the time I still listen to the symptoms more than God's promises. I have a heck of a time with colds. I'm not saying that I haven't been healed of a cold, but it has almost always been by God's grace. Like many of you here, I was taught to believing in my own ability to believe and that doesn't yeild the desired results. What I do is trust that God will bring his word to pass.
Regarding the "Law of believing" I believe it, but not the way TWI taught it. Believing is really not the right word for what I am trying to say. I guess you could say I believe the "law of having confidence and trust in God".
I once heard a story, and I don't know if it is true or not, I suspect it is more a parable, about a tribe in Africa that had completely converted to Christianity. They were well known among the missonaries for their trust in God. They were split by a deep river and it was not uncommon for them to walk on the water from one side to other. After a number of years a missonary revisited them and asked about their ability to walk on the water. Their leader said, "we don't do that anymore, we have built a bridge." The bridge met their need just as well or maybe better than their ability to walk on the water.
Not to take away from your unique personal experience – I just don't think it makes a strong case for specific biblical promises and the believing & receiving principle you mentioned earlier. The passages you alluded to and even the specific reference I Peter 2:24 "by whose stripes you were healed", depend on one's interpretation - and thus as to whether or not there has been a correct application - or for that matter if said experience even bears any correlation to the passage.
I understand the I Peter 2 passage in the context of the spiritual healing we've already received [noting it's in the past tense] by Jesus' bearing our sins in His body and being wounded as the price to pay for that act. I think you have a faulty assumption that this passage justifies your argument.
As far as your story of the African water-walkers – which I find incredulous by the way – it appears to harbor the same assumption [of the existence of a believing principle] you talked about in your post # 68 citing the Satanic Bible as promoting the believing equals receiving principle. And really all three of your points do not in any way, shape or form prove that the BIBLE says what you believe you will receive. But just for the record – in this discussion I will say you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt what YOU believe about the Bible and believing & receiving.
And with your repeated mentioning of the hit-and-miss nature of this alleged principle - it actually further weakens your argument of this being any kind of essential tool or hidden process of SCRIPTURE - which is what this DOCTRINAL discussion has been about.
As far as my personal experiences and observations go, I have to echo Oakspear's sentiment in his post # 45
Like so many things, I just don't think that there's any evidence that the Law of Believing, believing God's promises or whatever you want to call it, works. Even if you're a believer in the innerrancy of the bible, if something doesn't work, maybe you just are reading it wrong, jumping to the wrong conclusions, misunderstanding. You can prove anything if you pick the right combination of verses, but if it's true, there should definitely be real world confirmation of it, wouldn't you think? For all the anecdotes about people receiving what they "believed for", the percentage of believing that really did, honest to God, 100% equal receiving, was not very high, was it? If the bible is God's Word and if it clearly says that what you believe you will receive, then you will receive what you believe; there wouldn't be any of this hedging, explaining, blaming etc that accompanied lack of receiving.
Not to take away from your unique personal experience – I just don't think it makes a strong case for specific biblical promises and the believing & receiving principle you mentioned earlier. The passages you alluded to and even the specific reference I Peter 2:24 "by whose stripes you were healed", depend on one's interpretation - and thus as to whether or not there has been a correct application - or for that matter if said experience even bears any correlation to the passage.
I understand the I Peter 2 passage in the context of the spiritual healing we've already received [noting it's in the past tense] by Jesus' bearing our sins in His body and being wounded as the price to pay for that act. I think you have a faulty assumption that this passage justifies your argument.
As far as your story of the African water-walkers – which I find incredulous by the way – it appears to harbor the same assumption [of the existence of a believing principle] you talked about in your post # 68 citing the Satanic Bible as promoting the believing equals receiving principle. And really all three of your points do not in any way, shape or form prove that the BIBLE says what you believe you will receive. But just for the record – in this discussion I will say you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt what YOU believe about the Bible and believing & receiving.
And with your repeated mentioning of the hit-and-miss nature of this alleged principle - it actually further weakens your argument of this being any kind of essential tool or hidden process of SCRIPTURE - which is what this discussion has been about.
As far as my personal experiences and observations go, I have to echo Oakspear's sentiment in his post # 45
Presonally, I agree about the story of the African water-waters, I find it incredulous as well. But I think it makes a point about the differing needs. We sometimes meet those needs in the physical and no longer really need to apply the spiritual as much. Sometimes I think God guided us in modern medicine because of lack of trust in him.
I don't really find the issue hit or miss. You either believe and trust God or you don't. It becomes hit our miss not because of God's promises but because of our lack of belief and His grace and mercy. We are trained from birth in the sciences and the scientific method. That affects our belief. Listening to our symptoms, looking at our bank books and bills also affects our belief. God's grace comes in to play in these cases and/or interssion by other Christians. We try to complicate too much. That is why children and the superstious often do better at receiving than we do. As we grow up, we are taught to doubt anything spiritual. The sad thing is, I think we educate it out of our kids.
In regards to your different understanding of the "by his stripes we are healed" in I Peter, perhaps that's why you don't see it happening in your life. I heard a quote by Gloria Copeland once, "If you don't believe in healing, don't worry about, you won't be bothered with it." But if all healing comes from God does it matter in the end if it comes through modern medicine or via a miracle? And I do believe that that verse includes spritual healing as well as physical.
None of us can look at the heart of a person and tell whether they are really believing and trusting God or not. Sometimes, I have trouble looking at my own heart and telling what I'm thinking. I say the words, and then talk to my self about how bad I feel.
Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
This verse is basicly a statment of the only law of believing. The word believe is "pistis" or its verb form, often translated faith. It includes the idea of faithfully trusting in and having confidence in. When we doubt, we aren't having confidence so we aren't believing. TWI and almost every other group trys to complicate it. We develope that trust through a relationship with God, just like you develope trust with anyone.
Sorry for the double post. I just went back are read post #8. And he is right. TWI did condemn people for their lack of believing and what should have happened is what happens in many other churchs. People ban together to pray for you. They try to work with you to meet your needs while you are sick, or out of a job. No one should be condemned for lack of belief. Instead they should be reminded that God loves them and they have been made rightous in Christ no matter what is going on in their lives and they should know that the church is here to help them.
Just listened to a series by Derek Prince called the Roman Pilgimage. While most of it doesn't relate here and I'm sort of stretching his point. As he taught about the purpose of the law, it was to point out our sin and our lack of ability(which is basicly what Romans 7 talks about) When we put ourselves under a law we condemn ourselves to failure. We do the same when we talk about the law of believing. If we try to focus on the law, our fleshly ability to believe we will fail, instead we should focus on the mercy and grace that came to us through Christ on the cross and God's love for us.
As I've typed and answered questions I find myself changing as my understanding changes. Perhaps that is why some of what I say seems to contradict. My understanding is changing as I type. Ultimatly we trust God that he will bring about what He says. No more and no less. If He tells us we can move a mountian, we can as long as we trust that God will provide the power to do what He says we can do. As I said earlier, the real law of believing is just this...trust and have confidence in God. But, don't make it law, just develop the relationship.
Presonally, I agree about the story of the African water-waters, I find it incredulous as well. But I think it makes a point about the differing needs. We sometimes meet those needs in the physical and no longer really need to apply the spiritual as much. Sometimes I think God guided us in modern medicine because of lack of trust in him.
I don't really find the issue hit or miss. You either believe and trust God or you don't. It becomes hit our miss not because of God's promises but because of our lack of belief and His grace and mercy. We are trained from birth in the sciences and the scientific method. That affects our belief. Listening to our symptoms, looking at our bank books and bills also affects our belief. God's grace comes in to play in these cases and/or interssion by other Christians. We try to complicate too much. That is why children and the superstious often do better at receiving than we do. As we grow up, we are taught to doubt anything spiritual. The sad thing is, I think we educate it out of our kids.
In regards to your different understanding of the "by his stripes we are healed" in I Peter, perhaps that's why you don't see it happening in your life. I heard a quote by Gloria Copeland once, "If you don't believe in healing, don't worry about, you won't be bothered with it." But if all healing comes from God does it matter in the end if it comes through modern medicine or via a miracle? And I do believe that that verse includes spritual healing as well as physical.
None of us can look at the heart of a person and tell whether they are really believing and trusting God or not. Sometimes, I have trouble looking at my own heart and telling what I'm thinking. I say the words, and then talk to my self about how bad I feel.
Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
This verse is basicly a statment of the only law of believing. The word believe is "pistis" or its verb form, often translated faith. It includes the idea of faithfully trusting in and having confidence in. When we doubt, we aren't having confidence so we aren't believing. TWI and almost every other group trys to complicate it. We develope that trust through a relationship with God, just like you develope trust with anyone.
Never said I don't believe in divine healing or miracles. I merely disagree with your interpretation/application of I Peter 2:24.
As far as your reference to Gloria & Kenneth Copeland's health & wealth doctrine – I am familiar with their Fundamentalist approach to Scripture and treating passages like Mark 11 as a blank check for whatever one wishes to have – much like TWI interpreted it when I was in.
But I now find a couple of issues with that interpretation:
1, it ignores the figure of speech of a proverb that focuses on GOD's ability to answer prayer even with seemingly impossible situations. Matter of fact Bullinger notes this in the Companion Bible – saying Jesus' statement is from a well-known saying of His day [that's what makes it a figure of speech: proverb] and noting that one who taught how to handle impossible situations was respectfully referred to as a rooter of mountains.
2, such a wooden interpretation as exemplified by a Fundamentalist's viewpoint typically ignores other relevant passages that may qualify the application of a verse they cite.
The context of Mark 11 addresses prayer:
Mark 11:20-25 NIV
20In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"
22"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. 23"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
It looks to me like He's not tipping us off to some secret power hitherto unknown - but merely conveying what our attitude should be in PRAYER TOWARD GOD - since He is the one who actually "moves the mountain" - [noting verse 22 "have faith IN GOD"].
Another relevant passage on prayer is
I John 5:14 NIV
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
I would venture to say – the terrible batting average of "the law of believing" folks is due to asking for a whole lot of stuff that is NOT even according to God's will.
Sometimes I think God guided us in modern medicine because of lack of trust in him.
SNIP
You either believe and trust God or you don't. It becomes hit our miss not because of God's promises but because of our lack of belief and His grace and mercy. We are trained from birth in the sciences and the scientific method. That affects our belief. Listening to our symptoms, looking at our bank books and bills also affects our belief. God's grace comes in to play in these cases and/or interssion by other Christians. We try to complicate too much. That is why children and the superstious often do better at receiving than we do. As we grow up, we are taught to doubt anything spiritual. The sad thing is, I think we educate it out of our kids.
SNIP
I don't remember where (SNS or ROA maybe?) but I heard this same argument, almost word-for-word, when I was in TWI. I don't agree with it as evidence of the law of believing. For one thing, it uses grace and intercession to rationalize the obvious reality that a "law" is something that is constant.
The "law of believing" as TWI taught it in PFAL is not Biblical or a constant. But I'm not sure what you are getting at regarding rationalization.
The law of believing without doubting can be a constant, but our ability to believe without doubting is not a constant. We are human and doubt. That doesn't make the law wrong, just us.
It's like flying. The laws of lift were always there, since the beginning of creation, but we didn't know them and only applied them by accident. Then as we learned the laws of lift we were able to begin to design wings and motors to make planes that would fly. The history of flight is filled with our mistakes, however that doesn't negate the law, the problem was on our end. Once we learn to make the proper designs for our planes we achive success more often. But if something should go wrong, an engine failure, or broken wing, the law of lift is still a constant, but we are unfortunately no longer applying it and gravity (also a law and a constant) takes over and we crash. Just because we don't see results 100% or even 10% of the time doesn't mean the law is wrong, just our application of it.
I think I muddied the waters with my talk of God's grace and intercession. They are in no way part of the law of believing. I think of them more as rescue attempts when our doubt causes our believing to fail and we are heading for a crash and burn. It"s more of a reason why we sometimes get results dispite ourselves.
Does that make any sense at all?
If you are looking for physical proof of the "Law of believing" so that you can apply it 100% I don't think you will find it. We are too inconstant in our trust of God to get it to work every time. Maybe after the return. But we get better the closer our relationship with God. I'm sorry to say I've let that relationship slip a long way since the healing of my leg. I need to work on that.
It looks to me like He's not tipping us off to some secret power hitherto unknown - but merely conveying what our attitude should be in PRAYER TOWARD GOD - since He is the one who actually "moves the mountain" - [noting verse 22 "have faith IN GOD"].
Another relevant passage on prayer is
I John 5:14 NIV
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
I would venture to say the terrible batting average of "the law of believing" folks is due to asking for a whole lot of stuff that is NOT even according to God's will.
With the exception of your interpatation of I Peter 2:24, I agree with almost everything you said. Though I personally don't feel the Copelands teach that passage as "blank check" while I didn't really say it below, the law of believing, is really exactly what you say "It looks to me like He's not tipping us off to some secret power hitherto unknown - but merely conveying what our attitude should be in PRAYER TOWARD GOD - since He is the one who actually "moves the mountain" - [noting verse 22 "have faith IN GOD"]." I see it as the law of believing or trusting God. Even when we minister healing the power comes from God via the spirit, not us. And your last point, if it were possible, I would agree with you 150%.
From what you said here, I think really we are in agreement. I've sort of redifined "the law of believing" as "have faith IN God and His ability to carry out his promises and HE will bring them to pass."
The "law of believing" as TWI taught it in PFAL is not Biblical or a constant. But I'm not sure what you are getting at regarding rationalization.
I mean they are used to teach that there are supposedly exceptions to the rule.
The law of believing without doubting can be a constant, but our ability to believe without doubting is not a constant. We are human and doubt. That doesn't make the law wrong, just us.
You see, Keith, that creates a very large problem. It's really NOT our fault if we can't "believe" to bring things to pass or, conversely, to prevent things from happening. The thoughts you are thinking at this very moment have absolutely no sway over what happens in the physical realm. Have you ever tried to levitate a table? Of course, the TWI response would be to say there's no need to do so because there's no "profit". But suppose for a moment that there WOULD be profit because it would validate the law of believing and prove the power of God. Surely there must be some promise that would cover proving the existence of God. If it's a law and it will work for saint and sinner alike, it must be possible. I'm not saying it's wrong to have confidence in God's ability. Nor am I saying that a person's outlook, be it positive or negative, doesn't have any affect on their quality of life. I'm just saying that you can't change things in the physical world one iota by whatever thoughts are flowing through your mind, good or bad.
I would say that it is our fault that we can't bring things to pass. We are in control of our own minds and heart. I would also say that you are bringing things in that are not covered by the "law of believing" as I'm defining it.(see my last post) Unless God promises that you can levitate a table you are not going to be able to do it. It doesn't matter if you see a profit in levitating it or not. If God didn't promise it really does fall under the law. Again, I would say that if you are looking for "the law of believing" as TWI taught it, you will not find it in the bible. So using what they say to define "the law of believing" won't really hold up because it is based on a flawed information.
I see "the law of believing" more like my law regarding allowance for my son. If you do the chores you get your allowance. God says, If you believe and trust in me, not doubting my word or ability, I will bring my promises to pass in your life."
This is a constant in the way God operates. If we do it, we will get the results. It starts with our believing his word regarding salvation, the result is that we are born again. Not really hard to do. The same goes for healing. As I understand I Peter 2:24 God has already healed us. He has done everything he is going to do in regards to our healing on the cross. But we aquire it by faith, the same way we aquired our salvation. It's seems harder to do because there are physical manifestations that seem to contradict it. In addition people are aways talking about their ills. Look at all the news about H1N1 right now. You can't turn on the new without hearing about it, and that information puts doubt in our heart regarding our health and safty. However, if we control our hearts and minds and put our trust in God I believe that we will get the results every time.
Ah!!! a quick re-read of your post and I've spotted our communication problem. You are looking for a law of believing that works for saint and sinner alike. As I've defined the law of beliving the only thing a sinner can believe to receive is salvation. Once he's done that he is part of the Kingdom of God and he is under the laws of the realm. "the law of believing, again not as TWI defined it, but as trusting God to bring about his promise, is a law of the realm.
I see "the law of believing" more like my law regarding allowance for my son. If you do the chores you get your allowance. God says, If you believe and trust in me, not doubting my word or ability, I will bring my promises to pass in your life."
This is a constant in the way God operates. If we do it, we will get the results. .. .
<snip>
I'll be darned! Your "law of believing" IS in the Bible – also known as the system of works:
Romans 4:1-10 NIV
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
I don't really see it as works. The allowance allegory is just the best I could come up with. I think it falls under the phrase "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto for rightousness." The question is "is trusting God works or an expression of a relationship?" We aquire God's promises by beliving or trusting that God will fulfill His promises. Sometimes it takes a while for us to get to the point that we trust Him. It's easier in some areas than others and those areas we have difficulty with vary with individuals.
I might recommend the series by Derek Prince called the Roman Pilgrimage. It's a study of the first eight chapters of Romans and help me understand some things better. Though I have to admit I have trouble restating them. Especially since I can't call up the one line bibles easily while at work. Most of the time I'm trying to quote from memory. I remember the words pretty well, but I've always had trouble memorising the chapter and verse. (is that a confession of negtive believing :) )
The reason I see this law as a constant is because God is a God of love and a just God and his nature doesn't change. I guess a sinner could believe that Christ accomplished our legal deliverace from sickness on the cross and believe that he would see this healing manifested in his life, but in order to do that I guess he wouldn't be a sinner any more... would he?
I still think you hit the nail on the head about what I was trying to say. It's not that we believe for, it's that we trust God who makes the promise.
By the way the Derek Prince Roman Pilgrimage has little to do with this discussion, but I've really been challenged by it to re-examine what I believe. Something I should always be doing. The same has happened here and it has been an enjoyable experience.
I like how you put that, Keith – trusting God being an expression of our relationship. Maybe I was thinking along similar lines in my post # 25, speaking about faith being something that connects us with God:
.. .Like so many things in Scripture it seems that faith begins and ends with God – an interesting circle – God being not only the source of our faith but the object of our faith as well. Faith is indeed a mysterious thing – but if I was pressed to give a simple description I'd say faith is simply what connects us to God. .. .
I've enjoyed our discussion. Grease Spot is always a fun place to explore different viewpoints. And that's something to remember in discussions – once we've squared away with any of the strictly technical data [quoting passages, biblical languages, grammar, syntax, etc.] we are in a more cerebral territory – where different interpretations spring from different points of view – and as often is the case, ain't no telling who has the correct viewpoint.
Personally I lean toward a "dynamic composite approach", meaning my take on things is pretty much a mix of where my head is at currently, along with a sampling of other folks' ideas. I guess I'm at the point in my life where I'm comfortable with a lot of my belief system being in a state of flux.
~~
I don't know what online Bibles you're using – but I've had good luck with Bible Gateway:
I like what your saying too. Faith is really more a relationship with God. Something that TWI left out. It's also a noun and not a verb, but that's another issue.
Thanks for the links to the websites, but the issue is that I work a County run Public library at a public desk. While we are alowed to visit forums durring slow times I have to watch what I have up on the screen..."speration of church and state stuff. :( " I'm even alowed to shop on line if we are really slow.
I'm looking forward to seeing where this discussion goes.
Yeah, that durned "separation of church and state stuff" again. That's what you get when you work for the taxpayer, not all of whom view God the same way you do.
Aren't you glad that you can _freely_ view all the 'nobody allowed here but us Christians' sites when you're at home. (Besides, internet access from home is _usually_ a lot faster than from government PCs anyway. <_< ... unless you're working from, say, Homeland Security. Then you get those nifty, cool, top-of-the-line PCs. :B) )
/end off topic rant. We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming.
I work for a private business with key stroke security. I can only read newspapers online, and cannot sign in to any site or forum. Forbidden. Can't even sign into my bank account.
This is a constant in the way God operates. If we do it, we will get the results. It starts with our believing his word regarding salvation, the result is that we are born again. Not really hard to do. The same goes for healing. As I understand I Peter 2:24 God has already healed us. He has done everything he is going to do in regards to our healing on the cross. But we aquire it by faith, the same way we aquired our salvation. It's seems harder to do because there are physical manifestations that seem to contradict it. In addition people are aways talking about their ills. Look at all the news about H1N1 right now. You can't turn on the new without hearing about it, and that information puts doubt in our heart regarding our health and safty. However, if we control our hearts and minds and put our trust in God I believe that we will get the results every time.
But what about all the healing that happens for non-believers? What about the Christians that believe only to end up dead? You never knew their hearts how they believed. But now that they're dead it must have been their lack of believing? Really? H1N1 is a huge problem because of the 24hr news networks? What about the 1912 H1N1 outbreak that killed millions of people? Many died because of a lack of information and by extension poor disease prevention. The disease is probably less prevalent right now due to precautions people are taking out of concern and/or fear.
It works great when you are in your own little Christian bubble, Keith. In the rest of the world though, "miracles" or unexplained phenomena and events have and do happen to people of different cultures, religions, and gods. I realize this is the doctrinal forum, but on issues like this, really on all issues in life, it is best to have a more rounded and informed view of the way life works than just one book that claims itself to be the word of God. There are far too many to choose just one and hang on it's every word.
In the real world, as George pointed out, "sh!t happens" but so does amazing and wonderful things and they even happen to little ole' heathens like myself. All that damn time! The difference in my or some other unbeliever's "deliverances" and yours or some other religious person's is we are not asking our personal invisible friend. When we get better it is because something we or some else did or something unexplainable to us. When it happens to you... well it must be God, because you were praying for it. Meanwhile on the other end of the globe some crazy people are praying to their god for Christians to die horrible deaths, and sure enough it happens everyday with no need of a suicide bomber. IT MUST BE GOD! I'm sure they also have their own miraculous healing stories, maybe some one even gave them a camel right when they really needed one.
If we stop the search for why things really happen, then it will always be God. "God works in mysterious ways." Mysteries are things we don't understand. Maybe that is why we don't see the miracles of the Bible anymore. It certainly isn't lack of belief. The US is the most religious industrialized nation in the world. Must be the fault of CNN or the government. i remember a limb coordinator telling a family member that the reason we aren't seeing people healed of incurable diseases, like the one he has, as we read in the Bible is because there is a lack of "collective believing" in the household and in the country.
i remember a limb coordinator telling a family member that the reason we aren't seeing people healed of incurable diseases, like the one he has, as we read in the Bible is because there is a lack of "collective believing" in the household and in the country.
"Collective believing"
Yes, how well I remember that line of B.S.
In Fellow Laborers, we were scolded for our lack of "collective believing", told that we (FLO) were the reason Word Over The World wasn't happening. It just had to be because of our *negative* collective believing because we were in "the birthplace of the ministry" (Ohio). Yeah, I suppose God was sitting there on His throne, looking at maps of the U.S.A. and noticed that our meaningless little program was being conducted within some arbitrary lines on the map, otherwise known as state borders. Geeze! If He would have only given us some revelation, maybe we could have moved across the state line into Indiana or something. Then "The Word" would have prevailed and we'd all be living happily ever after instead of posting on GSC.
i remember a limb coordinator telling a family member that the reason we aren't seeing people healed of incurable diseases, like the one he has, as we read in the Bible is because there is a lack of "collective believing" in the household and in the country.
"Collective believing"
Yes, how well I remember that line of B.S.
In Fellow Laborers, we were scolded for our lack of "collective believing", told that we (FLO) were the reason Word Over The World wasn't happening. It just had to be because of our *negative* collective believing because we were in "the birthplace of the ministry" (Ohio). Yeah, I suppose God was sitting there on His throne, looking at maps of the U.S.A. and noticed that our meaningless little program was being conducted within some arbitrary lines on the map, otherwise known as state borders. Geeze! If He would have only given us some revelation, maybe we could have moved across the state line into Indiana or something. Then "The Word" would have prevailed and we'd all be living happily ever after instead of posting on GSC.
You both have made me think of another BS line - I can't remember where I heard it first but it goes like this: "you can't believe FOR someone but you can believe AGAINST them." where did they dig up all these rules anyway?
As far as believing "for someone", I think you were allowed to believe "for" someone if they were dead, like Lazarus, or mentally incapable of believing for themselves.
I don't recall where that one was taught but I'm thinking it's in the collaterals.
Just for fun, though, here's a gem from page 17.
(15) Devils believe. James 2:19
So, I guess, not only do you have to believe for yourself, you also have to OUT-BELIEVE the devils who are believing against you in some kind of spiritual believing show-down.
With all these rules & stipulations I'm thinking maybe those who promote the law of believing should qualify their assertions with one of those gosh-awful-long-hyper-speed statements you hear at the end of a car commercial on the radio. It all sounds like gibberish if you're not really listening – but if you pay attention you can make out "excluding tax, title & license, not applicable in all states, etc."
ya know, I think something similar to that went on in my head anyway in the TWI days. There's a thread awhile back – I remember saying something on it about the mental pop-up notes I'd experience while reading the Bible – recalling something vp said about a verse. Geez it was like a vp interactive commentary installed in my brain! Yikes – and I think this "lovely" program had a virus to boot!
But speaking of rules – imho the only precept or principle that should be applicable in a Christian's prayer life is having Jesus Christ as the object of our faith. I've heard of a pretty good analogy that distinguishes between our faith and the object of our faith. Let's say you're sliding down a slippery steep slope while desperately looking for something to grab to save you from going all the way down the hill. You see a tall sunflower and an oak tree. Which would you choose? Folks into the power of faith could very well answer it doesn't matter which one you choose since it really depends on the power of your faith. But in this scenario, I think the smart move would be to grab the oak tree – since it obviously has the power to save me – and the oak tree becomes the object of my faith.
And that makes me think of something about the gospels -- they usually have Jesus as the focal point of healings & miracles. I don't see many accounts of people coming out of the woodwork saying "once I heard about the power of faith I was healed. But I do not believe in your Jesus." <_<
A poster brought up earlier on this thread the account of Peter walking on the water and talked about fear being the reason he started to sink. I tend to think it was because he took his eyes off Jesus and looked at the storm surrounding them. Jesus was quite literally the object of his faith – since Peter said "if it's you Lord, bid me to come to you." And just like the oak tree on the slippery slope that's worthy of our trust – you might consider how Peter got back to the boat. If it had depended on his believing he would have drowned. Though the passage does not say I think it's implied that Jesus helped him back to the boat. Maybe had Peter on His back or something I dunno. Similar in vein to the account of the man telling Jesus "Lord I believe – help my unbelief."
Another passage I can think of offhand is the blind men coming to Jesus for healing in Matthew 9:27-30. Jesus asked them "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" Again that puts the focus on Jesus and His power. If there's some kind of underlying principle or "rule" in the gospel accounts of healings & miracles I'd say it has something to do with Jesus being at the center of it all - with the only "contingency" being His will.
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T-Bone
A good point was made about TWI sorta eliminating God in the process of things - I see something very similar with the health & wealth/the power of believing fans focusing on any mention of faith,
waysider
You just had to ask, didn't you? The "believing against someone" idea comes from page 10 of the AC syllabus ©1971 ************************************************ KEYS TO WALKING BY THE SPIRIT
Oakspear
I see where you're coming from biblically, but I just don't see it in the observable world. I see no difference in general between Christians and non-Christians in any category; no difference between
Keith
It doesn't, that came from Levay's work.
Really, that is a humanist concept, not biblical, except as it applies to salvation. The sinner can trust God for his salvation. I guess if God promised something directly to a sinner he could also apply the law of believing, but I doubt if he would.
I think I have a better image for what I was trying to say in the last post.
My son gets an allowance, but it is conditional. There are certain chores that he has to do. That is the law, if he does the chores he gets the allowance. However, there are times when because of school commitments, or time changes within our family that he cannot perform the chores. It isn't that he doesn't want to, but for some reason he is unable to do so. If I, as a father, am hard-nosed about the chores then by the law I set down in my house he should not get the allowance. But I know that he would have performed them if it had been possible. As a father I superseed my law and give him his allowance anyway. There are even times when I give him additional money just because I love him and he is my son.
In otherwords, he can perform the chores and he will always get his allowance, every time. But I can choose to give him his allowance even if he doesn't perform the chores if I so choose. Same with the "law of believing." We can opperate the law and get the results God promised, but he is the father and looks at our heart. He knows our heart and may give us the result anyway.
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waysider
So, then, shouldn't God be able do the same for fear?
From PFAL:
"FEAR IS BELIEVING
What you fear, you will receive--it's a law.
Fear is believing in reverse."
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T-Bone
Our discussion does lack specificity. It might help if you give a specific example of promise or some believing & receiving teaching and elaborate on the point you've been making.
You've brought up a good point here. I don't buy into the fear rap anymore. My little pop-psychology on fear is as follows: there's two kinds of fear: normal self-preservation type fears & imagined fears; TWI really got these two mixed up in teachings and applications:
Normal self-preservation type fears - in the face of legitimate health, safety & security concerns TWI encouraged acts of bravado, throwing caution to the wind, being reckless in our faith – maybe even tempting the Lord ["renewed mind recklessness" was a well-known phrase] - perhaps best exemplified in having Corps hitch to/from LEAD.
Imagined or groundless type fears – vp had a knack for generating fear in even his most devoted followers. It was a great tool for manipulating & intimidating folks. fear of devil spirits, afraid our believing could fail, or even afraid of fear itself. Bah! The only thing there ever was to fear was giving vp a microphone.
Actually I think there's an underlying issue with a believing & receiving doctrine that is supposed to keep God in the picture – in that there's an assumption of other things that may not even belong in the picture. Maybe the more the sovereignty of God fills up this mental picture - instead of how we think things should work - we'd probably enjoy life a lot more and be content with what we do have.
The picture analogy is indeed apropos for analyzing this "doctrine" – it seems to me that there's always a subtle shift of focus from God to OUR faith. Whereby God is neither the basis nor object of our faith – but all that one has developed thus far in their walk seems to be the grounds for their confidence and the object of their faith is the thing they want. Seems like such a game of fooling ourselves - talk about how much God is in the picture - but in practice there's a lot more attention given to "believing", positive confessions, SITing, or whatever the latest "spiritual" gimmick is.
You'd think after experiencing enough failures some folks might re-think this supposed biblical process. The believing & receiving doctrine relies heavily on assumptions, sheer speculation, & dubious theories imho.
Maybe the waters are muddied by superimposing a complex process - all the dos & don'ts of the believing & receiving system of thought. People can prove just about anything from the Bible.
Why do the "believing & receiving" ministries assume there's all these "promises" in the Bible just waiting to be cashed in – and their secret to cashing in on them is a process that one comes to understand by "Scripture build up" and reading between the lines. The Bible isn't laid out like a textbook - everything on one topic is in just one chapter. And there's no God-breathed index, graphs or pie charts.
However, it does seem like the simple Christian truths are in plain sight - and locked in by context to boot! Jesus is Lord, Jesus is resurrected, adultery is sin, God is love, love my neighbor as myself. You can't miss it and it doesn't take a lot of brain power or scriptural acrobatics to grasp the basic idea of those passages.
On page 79, in one of my favorite books on systematic theology, "Christian Theology" by Millard Erickson - is something I feel is important for students of the Bible to keep in mind - the degrees of authority of theological statements. The first category - a direct statement of Scripture - like my examples above - are to be accorded the greatest weight. But as we move away from direct statements to things garnered through an intellectual process - the weight of authority becomes less and less. Direct implications to probable implications to inductive conclusions to inferences from the general revelation to outright speculation - all involve an additional step - our logic - which carries with it the possibility of interpretation error, faulty assumption, etc.
The typical mindset of PFAL grads is to lump everything vp said into the first category - like it was all direct statements of Scripture and give it the highest weight of authority as well - when probably a lot of the points he makes on believing alone fall mostly into outright speculation category.
Who says fear is the opposite of believing? Let's say a guy is brandishing a firearm in a crowded bar. Do I follow my self-preservation instinct [which is basically a FEAR of injury or death] and do something smart like leave that place. Or should I keep that fear in check by my believing - throw caution to the wind - I'll show this guy & crowd I'm not afraid of anything.
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Keith
I'm not sure that there are that many promises to believe certainly not as many as many would have you think. God has said, "by his stripes we are healed" so I can believe that statment. But I must remember that I am putting my faith in the one who made the promise; that He will stand behind it and not in my ability to believe His promise. We are also promised that God will meet our physical needs. It doesn't say wants. He will give us wisdom etc. He doesn't promise us a new car, a new house, a new boat etc.
The fact is that many of God's promises are broad in nature. Salvation is the only completly specific one. Where people get confused is that different people have different needs, and different people have different ideas of what they need. To furture confuse the issue. People also think they need something that they don't really need and would be a distaction from there relationship with God if they had it.
I like the person who talked about self preservation fears. Some fears make sense and it is stupid to ignore them unless specificly directed to by God. But I also no fear can freeze you in your tracks. A fear of heights can be helpful, but for a long time I had an unreasonable fear of heights. I would hug the walls in building with stairways that went around the a large open area. I have been unable to move because of fear of falling dispite the nearest ledge being over 200 ft from me.
In regards to specificity I will share a situation in my life where I used my faith like a tool to receive a promise of God. First I would say that God has promised healing, I believe this, as long as we put our trust in God and not our own ability to believe him. I will also say up front that in this example there was no one else around, so you have only my word that it happened. Whether you believe it or not is up to you. I fell down a small flight of stairs. The kind with the open back and my leg went through when I went down. I broke my leg. While I didn't go to the hospital for it, it was obvious that it was broken. I had bone sticking through the opening in my leg. There was no one around to ask for help. I remember looking up and saying to myself. "Well, now you've done it. Your only hope is God." So I prayed. I prayed the verses that have to do with healing. I prayed verses about trustin God. Then I said something like, (it has been a number of years) God, you said you can heal me and I know it is your will. I trust that you will honor your word and heal this leg." I was gasping in pain the whole time. I watched as the bone slipped back through the cut and into place, the pain was leaving and the wound was beginning to heal and finally healed completly. I got up and walked back up the stairs and into the house. I had used my faith like a tool applied to my broken bone.
But I don't always get that result. Much of the time I still listen to the symptoms more than God's promises. I have a heck of a time with colds. I'm not saying that I haven't been healed of a cold, but it has almost always been by God's grace. Like many of you here, I was taught to believing in my own ability to believe and that doesn't yeild the desired results. What I do is trust that God will bring his word to pass.
Regarding the "Law of believing" I believe it, but not the way TWI taught it. Believing is really not the right word for what I am trying to say. I guess you could say I believe the "law of having confidence and trust in God".
I once heard a story, and I don't know if it is true or not, I suspect it is more a parable, about a tribe in Africa that had completely converted to Christianity. They were well known among the missonaries for their trust in God. They were split by a deep river and it was not uncommon for them to walk on the water from one side to other. After a number of years a missonary revisited them and asked about their ability to walk on the water. Their leader said, "we don't do that anymore, we have built a bridge." The bridge met their need just as well or maybe better than their ability to walk on the water.
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T-Bone
Not to take away from your unique personal experience – I just don't think it makes a strong case for specific biblical promises and the believing & receiving principle you mentioned earlier. The passages you alluded to and even the specific reference I Peter 2:24 "by whose stripes you were healed", depend on one's interpretation - and thus as to whether or not there has been a correct application - or for that matter if said experience even bears any correlation to the passage.
I understand the I Peter 2 passage in the context of the spiritual healing we've already received [noting it's in the past tense] by Jesus' bearing our sins in His body and being wounded as the price to pay for that act. I think you have a faulty assumption that this passage justifies your argument.
As far as your story of the African water-walkers – which I find incredulous by the way – it appears to harbor the same assumption [of the existence of a believing principle] you talked about in your post # 68 citing the Satanic Bible as promoting the believing equals receiving principle. And really all three of your points do not in any way, shape or form prove that the BIBLE says what you believe you will receive. But just for the record – in this discussion I will say you have proven beyond a shadow of a doubt what YOU believe about the Bible and believing & receiving.
And with your repeated mentioning of the hit-and-miss nature of this alleged principle - it actually further weakens your argument of this being any kind of essential tool or hidden process of SCRIPTURE - which is what this DOCTRINAL discussion has been about.
As far as my personal experiences and observations go, I have to echo Oakspear's sentiment in his post # 45
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Keith
Presonally, I agree about the story of the African water-waters, I find it incredulous as well. But I think it makes a point about the differing needs. We sometimes meet those needs in the physical and no longer really need to apply the spiritual as much. Sometimes I think God guided us in modern medicine because of lack of trust in him.
I don't really find the issue hit or miss. You either believe and trust God or you don't. It becomes hit our miss not because of God's promises but because of our lack of belief and His grace and mercy. We are trained from birth in the sciences and the scientific method. That affects our belief. Listening to our symptoms, looking at our bank books and bills also affects our belief. God's grace comes in to play in these cases and/or interssion by other Christians. We try to complicate too much. That is why children and the superstious often do better at receiving than we do. As we grow up, we are taught to doubt anything spiritual. The sad thing is, I think we educate it out of our kids.
In regards to your different understanding of the "by his stripes we are healed" in I Peter, perhaps that's why you don't see it happening in your life. I heard a quote by Gloria Copeland once, "If you don't believe in healing, don't worry about, you won't be bothered with it." But if all healing comes from God does it matter in the end if it comes through modern medicine or via a miracle? And I do believe that that verse includes spritual healing as well as physical.
None of us can look at the heart of a person and tell whether they are really believing and trusting God or not. Sometimes, I have trouble looking at my own heart and telling what I'm thinking. I say the words, and then talk to my self about how bad I feel.
Mark 11:23 For verily I say unto you, That whosoever shall say unto this mountain, Be thou removed, and be thou cast into the sea; and shall not doubt in his heart, but shall believe that those things which he saith shall come to pass; he shall have whatsoever he saith.
This verse is basicly a statment of the only law of believing. The word believe is "pistis" or its verb form, often translated faith. It includes the idea of faithfully trusting in and having confidence in. When we doubt, we aren't having confidence so we aren't believing. TWI and almost every other group trys to complicate it. We develope that trust through a relationship with God, just like you develope trust with anyone.
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Keith
Sorry for the double post. I just went back are read post #8. And he is right. TWI did condemn people for their lack of believing and what should have happened is what happens in many other churchs. People ban together to pray for you. They try to work with you to meet your needs while you are sick, or out of a job. No one should be condemned for lack of belief. Instead they should be reminded that God loves them and they have been made rightous in Christ no matter what is going on in their lives and they should know that the church is here to help them.
Just listened to a series by Derek Prince called the Roman Pilgimage. While most of it doesn't relate here and I'm sort of stretching his point. As he taught about the purpose of the law, it was to point out our sin and our lack of ability(which is basicly what Romans 7 talks about) When we put ourselves under a law we condemn ourselves to failure. We do the same when we talk about the law of believing. If we try to focus on the law, our fleshly ability to believe we will fail, instead we should focus on the mercy and grace that came to us through Christ on the cross and God's love for us.
As I've typed and answered questions I find myself changing as my understanding changes. Perhaps that is why some of what I say seems to contradict. My understanding is changing as I type. Ultimatly we trust God that he will bring about what He says. No more and no less. If He tells us we can move a mountian, we can as long as we trust that God will provide the power to do what He says we can do. As I said earlier, the real law of believing is just this...trust and have confidence in God. But, don't make it law, just develop the relationship.
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T-Bone
Never said I don't believe in divine healing or miracles. I merely disagree with your interpretation/application of I Peter 2:24.
As far as your reference to Gloria & Kenneth Copeland's health & wealth doctrine – I am familiar with their Fundamentalist approach to Scripture and treating passages like Mark 11 as a blank check for whatever one wishes to have – much like TWI interpreted it when I was in.
But I now find a couple of issues with that interpretation:
1, it ignores the figure of speech of a proverb that focuses on GOD's ability to answer prayer even with seemingly impossible situations. Matter of fact Bullinger notes this in the Companion Bible – saying Jesus' statement is from a well-known saying of His day [that's what makes it a figure of speech: proverb] and noting that one who taught how to handle impossible situations was respectfully referred to as a rooter of mountains.
2, such a wooden interpretation as exemplified by a Fundamentalist's viewpoint typically ignores other relevant passages that may qualify the application of a verse they cite.
The context of Mark 11 addresses prayer:
Mark 11:20-25 NIV
20In the morning, as they went along, they saw the fig tree withered from the roots. 21Peter remembered and said to Jesus, "Rabbi, look! The fig tree you cursed has withered!"
22"Have faith in God," Jesus answered. 23"I tell you the truth, if anyone says to this mountain, 'Go, throw yourself into the sea,' and does not doubt in his heart but believes that what he says will happen, it will be done for him. 24Therefore I tell you, whatever you ask for in prayer, believe that you have received it, and it will be yours. 25And when you stand praying, if you hold anything against anyone, forgive him, so that your Father in heaven may forgive you your sins."
It looks to me like He's not tipping us off to some secret power hitherto unknown - but merely conveying what our attitude should be in PRAYER TOWARD GOD - since He is the one who actually "moves the mountain" - [noting verse 22 "have faith IN GOD"].
Another relevant passage on prayer is
I John 5:14 NIV
This is the confidence we have in approaching God: that if we ask anything according to his will, he hears us.
I would venture to say – the terrible batting average of "the law of believing" folks is due to asking for a whole lot of stuff that is NOT even according to God's will.
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waysider
I don't remember where (SNS or ROA maybe?) but I heard this same argument, almost word-for-word, when I was in TWI. I don't agree with it as evidence of the law of believing. For one thing, it uses grace and intercession to rationalize the obvious reality that a "law" is something that is constant.
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Keith
The "law of believing" as TWI taught it in PFAL is not Biblical or a constant. But I'm not sure what you are getting at regarding rationalization.
The law of believing without doubting can be a constant, but our ability to believe without doubting is not a constant. We are human and doubt. That doesn't make the law wrong, just us.
It's like flying. The laws of lift were always there, since the beginning of creation, but we didn't know them and only applied them by accident. Then as we learned the laws of lift we were able to begin to design wings and motors to make planes that would fly. The history of flight is filled with our mistakes, however that doesn't negate the law, the problem was on our end. Once we learn to make the proper designs for our planes we achive success more often. But if something should go wrong, an engine failure, or broken wing, the law of lift is still a constant, but we are unfortunately no longer applying it and gravity (also a law and a constant) takes over and we crash. Just because we don't see results 100% or even 10% of the time doesn't mean the law is wrong, just our application of it.
I think I muddied the waters with my talk of God's grace and intercession. They are in no way part of the law of believing. I think of them more as rescue attempts when our doubt causes our believing to fail and we are heading for a crash and burn. It"s more of a reason why we sometimes get results dispite ourselves.
Does that make any sense at all?
If you are looking for physical proof of the "Law of believing" so that you can apply it 100% I don't think you will find it. We are too inconstant in our trust of God to get it to work every time. Maybe after the return. But we get better the closer our relationship with God. I'm sorry to say I've let that relationship slip a long way since the healing of my leg. I need to work on that.
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Keith
With the exception of your interpatation of I Peter 2:24, I agree with almost everything you said. Though I personally don't feel the Copelands teach that passage as "blank check" while I didn't really say it below, the law of believing, is really exactly what you say "It looks to me like He's not tipping us off to some secret power hitherto unknown - but merely conveying what our attitude should be in PRAYER TOWARD GOD - since He is the one who actually "moves the mountain" - [noting verse 22 "have faith IN GOD"]." I see it as the law of believing or trusting God. Even when we minister healing the power comes from God via the spirit, not us. And your last point, if it were possible, I would agree with you 150%.
From what you said here, I think really we are in agreement. I've sort of redifined "the law of believing" as "have faith IN God and His ability to carry out his promises and HE will bring them to pass."
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waysider
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Keith
I would say that it is our fault that we can't bring things to pass. We are in control of our own minds and heart. I would also say that you are bringing things in that are not covered by the "law of believing" as I'm defining it.(see my last post) Unless God promises that you can levitate a table you are not going to be able to do it. It doesn't matter if you see a profit in levitating it or not. If God didn't promise it really does fall under the law. Again, I would say that if you are looking for "the law of believing" as TWI taught it, you will not find it in the bible. So using what they say to define "the law of believing" won't really hold up because it is based on a flawed information.
I see "the law of believing" more like my law regarding allowance for my son. If you do the chores you get your allowance. God says, If you believe and trust in me, not doubting my word or ability, I will bring my promises to pass in your life."
This is a constant in the way God operates. If we do it, we will get the results. It starts with our believing his word regarding salvation, the result is that we are born again. Not really hard to do. The same goes for healing. As I understand I Peter 2:24 God has already healed us. He has done everything he is going to do in regards to our healing on the cross. But we aquire it by faith, the same way we aquired our salvation. It's seems harder to do because there are physical manifestations that seem to contradict it. In addition people are aways talking about their ills. Look at all the news about H1N1 right now. You can't turn on the new without hearing about it, and that information puts doubt in our heart regarding our health and safty. However, if we control our hearts and minds and put our trust in God I believe that we will get the results every time.
Ah!!! a quick re-read of your post and I've spotted our communication problem. You are looking for a law of believing that works for saint and sinner alike. As I've defined the law of beliving the only thing a sinner can believe to receive is salvation. Once he's done that he is part of the Kingdom of God and he is under the laws of the realm. "the law of believing, again not as TWI defined it, but as trusting God to bring about his promise, is a law of the realm.
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T-Bone
I'll be darned! Your "law of believing" IS in the Bible – also known as the system of works:
Romans 4:1-10 NIV
1What then shall we say that Abraham, our forefather, discovered in this matter? 2If, in fact, Abraham was justified by works, he had something to boast about—but not before God. 3What does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was credited to him as righteousness."
4Now when a man works, his wages are not credited to him as a gift, but as an obligation. 5However, to the man who does not work but trusts God who justifies the wicked, his faith is credited as righteousness. 6David says the same thing when he speaks of the blessedness of the man to whom God credits righteousness apart from works:
7"Blessed are they
whose transgressions are forgiven,
whose sins are covered.
8Blessed is the man
whose sin the Lord will never count against him."
9Is this blessedness only for the circumcised, or also for the uncircumcised? We have been saying that Abraham's faith was credited to him as righteousness. 10Under what circumstances was it credited? Was it after he was circumcised, or before? It was not after, but before!
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Keith
I don't really see it as works. The allowance allegory is just the best I could come up with. I think it falls under the phrase "Abraham believed God and it was counted unto for rightousness." The question is "is trusting God works or an expression of a relationship?" We aquire God's promises by beliving or trusting that God will fulfill His promises. Sometimes it takes a while for us to get to the point that we trust Him. It's easier in some areas than others and those areas we have difficulty with vary with individuals.
I might recommend the series by Derek Prince called the Roman Pilgrimage. It's a study of the first eight chapters of Romans and help me understand some things better. Though I have to admit I have trouble restating them. Especially since I can't call up the one line bibles easily while at work. Most of the time I'm trying to quote from memory. I remember the words pretty well, but I've always had trouble memorising the chapter and verse. (is that a confession of negtive believing :) )
The reason I see this law as a constant is because God is a God of love and a just God and his nature doesn't change. I guess a sinner could believe that Christ accomplished our legal deliverace from sickness on the cross and believe that he would see this healing manifested in his life, but in order to do that I guess he wouldn't be a sinner any more... would he?
I still think you hit the nail on the head about what I was trying to say. It's not that we believe for, it's that we trust God who makes the promise.
By the way the Derek Prince Roman Pilgrimage has little to do with this discussion, but I've really been challenged by it to re-examine what I believe. Something I should always be doing. The same has happened here and it has been an enjoyable experience.
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T-Bone
I like how you put that, Keith – trusting God being an expression of our relationship. Maybe I was thinking along similar lines in my post # 25, speaking about faith being something that connects us with God:
I've enjoyed our discussion. Grease Spot is always a fun place to explore different viewpoints. And that's something to remember in discussions – once we've squared away with any of the strictly technical data [quoting passages, biblical languages, grammar, syntax, etc.] we are in a more cerebral territory – where different interpretations spring from different points of view – and as often is the case, ain't no telling who has the correct viewpoint.
Personally I lean toward a "dynamic composite approach", meaning my take on things is pretty much a mix of where my head is at currently, along with a sampling of other folks' ideas. I guess I'm at the point in my life where I'm comfortable with a lot of my belief system being in a state of flux.
~~
I don't know what online Bibles you're using – but I've had good luck with Bible Gateway:
http://www.biblegateway.com/
And here's a website with some study tools
http://www.biblestudytools.com/
enjoy.. .
love & peace
T-Bone
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Keith
I like what your saying too. Faith is really more a relationship with God. Something that TWI left out. It's also a noun and not a verb, but that's another issue.
Thanks for the links to the websites, but the issue is that I work a County run Public library at a public desk. While we are alowed to visit forums durring slow times I have to watch what I have up on the screen..."speration of church and state stuff. :( " I'm even alowed to shop on line if we are really slow.
I'm looking forward to seeing where this discussion goes.
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GarthP2000
A bit
, but what the hey. I'm cranky sometimes.
"seperation of church and state stuff. :( "
Yeah, that durned "separation of church and state stuff" again.
That's what you get when you work for the taxpayer, not all of whom view God the same way you do.
Aren't you glad that you can _freely_ view all the 'nobody allowed here but us Christians' sites when you're at home. (Besides, internet access from home is _usually_ a lot faster than from government PCs anyway. <_< ... unless you're working from, say, Homeland Security. Then you get those nifty, cool, top-of-the-line PCs. :B) )
/end off topic rant. We now return you to our regularly scheduled programming.
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Bramble
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lindyhopper
But what about all the healing that happens for non-believers? What about the Christians that believe only to end up dead? You never knew their hearts how they believed. But now that they're dead it must have been their lack of believing? Really? H1N1 is a huge problem because of the 24hr news networks? What about the 1912 H1N1 outbreak that killed millions of people? Many died because of a lack of information and by extension poor disease prevention. The disease is probably less prevalent right now due to precautions people are taking out of concern and/or fear.
It works great when you are in your own little Christian bubble, Keith. In the rest of the world though, "miracles" or unexplained phenomena and events have and do happen to people of different cultures, religions, and gods. I realize this is the doctrinal forum, but on issues like this, really on all issues in life, it is best to have a more rounded and informed view of the way life works than just one book that claims itself to be the word of God. There are far too many to choose just one and hang on it's every word.
In the real world, as George pointed out, "sh!t happens" but so does amazing and wonderful things and they even happen to little ole' heathens like myself. All that damn time! The difference in my or some other unbeliever's "deliverances" and yours or some other religious person's is we are not asking our personal invisible friend. When we get better it is because something we or some else did or something unexplainable to us. When it happens to you... well it must be God, because you were praying for it. Meanwhile on the other end of the globe some crazy people are praying to their god for Christians to die horrible deaths, and sure enough it happens everyday with no need of a suicide bomber. IT MUST BE GOD! I'm sure they also have their own miraculous healing stories, maybe some one even gave them a camel right when they really needed one.
If we stop the search for why things really happen, then it will always be God. "God works in mysterious ways." Mysteries are things we don't understand. Maybe that is why we don't see the miracles of the Bible anymore. It certainly isn't lack of belief. The US is the most religious industrialized nation in the world. Must be the fault of CNN or the government.
i remember a limb coordinator telling a family member that the reason we aren't seeing people healed of incurable diseases, like the one he has, as we read in the Bible is because there is a lack of "collective believing" in the household and in the country. 
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waysider
"Collective believing"
Yes, how well I remember that line of B.S.
In Fellow Laborers, we were scolded for our lack of "collective believing", told that we (FLO) were the reason Word Over The World wasn't happening. It just had to be because of our *negative* collective believing because we were in "the birthplace of the ministry" (Ohio). Yeah, I suppose God was sitting there on His throne, looking at maps of the U.S.A. and noticed that our meaningless little program was being conducted within some arbitrary lines on the map, otherwise known as state borders. Geeze! If He would have only given us some revelation, maybe we could have moved across the state line into Indiana or something. Then "The Word" would have prevailed and we'd all be living happily ever after instead of posting on GSC.
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T-Bone
You both have made me think of another BS line - I can't remember where I heard it first but it goes like this: "you can't believe FOR someone but you can believe AGAINST them." where did they dig up all these rules anyway?
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waysider
You just had to ask, didn't you?
The "believing against someone" idea comes from page 10 of the AC syllabus ©1971
************************************************
KEYS TO WALKING BY THE SPIRIT
9. It may be essential to put unbelievers out of the room. Matthew 9:23-25
****************************************************
As far as believing "for someone", I think you were allowed to believe "for" someone if they were dead, like Lazarus, or mentally incapable of believing for themselves.
I don't recall where that one was taught but I'm thinking it's in the collaterals.
Just for fun, though, here's a gem from page 17.
(15) Devils believe. James 2:19
So, I guess, not only do you have to believe for yourself, you also have to OUT-BELIEVE the devils who are believing against you in some kind of spiritual believing show-down.
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T-Bone
With all these rules & stipulations I'm thinking maybe those who promote the law of believing should qualify their assertions with one of those gosh-awful-long-hyper-speed statements you hear at the end of a car commercial on the radio. It all sounds like gibberish if you're not really listening – but if you pay attention you can make out "excluding tax, title & license, not applicable in all states, etc."
ya know, I think something similar to that went on in my head anyway in the TWI days. There's a thread awhile back – I remember saying something on it about the mental pop-up notes I'd experience while reading the Bible – recalling something vp said about a verse. Geez it was like a vp interactive commentary installed in my brain! Yikes – and I think this "lovely" program had a virus to boot!
But speaking of rules – imho the only precept or principle that should be applicable in a Christian's prayer life is having Jesus Christ as the object of our faith. I've heard of a pretty good analogy that distinguishes between our faith and the object of our faith. Let's say you're sliding down a slippery steep slope while desperately looking for something to grab to save you from going all the way down the hill. You see a tall sunflower and an oak tree. Which would you choose? Folks into the power of faith could very well answer it doesn't matter which one you choose since it really depends on the power of your faith. But in this scenario, I think the smart move would be to grab the oak tree – since it obviously has the power to save me – and the oak tree becomes the object of my faith.
And that makes me think of something about the gospels -- they usually have Jesus as the focal point of healings & miracles. I don't see many accounts of people coming out of the woodwork saying "once I heard about the power of faith I was healed. But I do not believe in your Jesus." <_<
A poster brought up earlier on this thread the account of Peter walking on the water and talked about fear being the reason he started to sink. I tend to think it was because he took his eyes off Jesus and looked at the storm surrounding them. Jesus was quite literally the object of his faith – since Peter said "if it's you Lord, bid me to come to you." And just like the oak tree on the slippery slope that's worthy of our trust – you might consider how Peter got back to the boat. If it had depended on his believing he would have drowned. Though the passage does not say I think it's implied that Jesus helped him back to the boat. Maybe had Peter on His back or something I dunno. Similar in vein to the account of the man telling Jesus "Lord I believe – help my unbelief."
Another passage I can think of offhand is the blind men coming to Jesus for healing in Matthew 9:27-30. Jesus asked them "Do you believe that I am able to do this?" Again that puts the focus on Jesus and His power. If there's some kind of underlying principle or "rule" in the gospel accounts of healings & miracles I'd say it has something to do with Jesus being at the center of it all - with the only "contingency" being His will.
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