I do think God promises that He will meet our needs. As far as wealth goes, I think how much we receive as a result of trusting Him may depend on what our needs really are and whether we let the wealth control us. I have to laugh at people who say they are "believing for" something. God really doesn't ever ask us to "believe for" anything, He asks us to trust in him. Big difference.
You are right that many people take as promises things that aren't. A bigger problem is that people often see the promise of something like wealth, but pay no attention to the service and worship that is to go with it. For example God says to give (he doesn't say where, just give) and He will give back to you. So many people give expecting to get back, and they should, but if they see it as a trade or investment it really isn't giving is it? You give with no strings attached, out of a joyfull heart. You give because you want to give regardless of whether you get anything back or not. Most people don't see that part of it. With every promise you see there is a corresponding action that goes with it. An there is often a heart attitude required as well. So it is not just trusting God, but obeying God from the heart as well.
And as with all things...God is greater than our heart.
Good points Keith! And if I may express my opinion a little further – I've come to look at "needs" as a relative thing – besides the wonder-how-God-thinks-I-should-handle-this-factor ala Paul's thorn in the flesh dilemma. The "resolution" that God expressed to him was probably a whole lot different than what Paul had in mind. "You mean you're not going to do anything about that thorn in the flesh – you're just gonna give me enough strength so I can handle it?"
It's just my opinion but I think the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6 was intended to be a model of what we have a "right" to pray for – yup, it's rather sparse but maybe covers what the Lord thinks we "need" – sustenance for today, forgiveness and a forgiving attitude, moral guidance, etc. I think a modest attitude in prayer & lifestyle and a contentment with having God as our most treasured possession is alluded to by Paul in I Timothy 6:6-8. Something to think about – if all Christianity ever offered was Jesus – how many ministries would be interested in working for the cause?
Good points Keith! And if I may express my opinion a little further – I've come to look at "needs" as a relative thing – besides the wonder-how-God-thinks-I-should-handle-this-factor ala Paul's thorn in the flesh dilemma. The "resolution" that God expressed to him was probably a whole lot different than what Paul had in mind. "You mean you're not going to do anything about that thorn in the flesh – you're just gonna give me enough strength so I can handle it?"
and God said "Yep"
I think you really hit the nail on the head. What God says we need and what we think we need are often two different things. There are some of us who do need lots and lots of money. But all of us don't. We should have enough though to have our real needs met, food, clothing, shelter, etc. And we should have enough to help others at least to a point. Ephesians says that the person who stole should steal no more and labor with his hands so that he would have to give to others. Why would it be any different for the rest of us. Seems like a good reason to work to me. I've lost a lot of money investing in a various friends businesess that after prayer I felt God led me to invest in with the idea that IF there was any profit I would have a percentage until the investment was returned with interest up to a certain amount, this was the only stipulation. If they failed, I got nothing. They all failed. I not only didn't make a profit, I didn't even get the money back. But two of them mentioned that if they had taken out a loan for the full amount without my money it was likely that they would have been bankrupt and possibly be homeless. Seems like a good deal to me. Money can be replaced. People can't. That's been my attitude with money for a long time and God has never faild to meet my needs and even a little more.
The "health and wealth" that T-Bone refers to is, in my opinion, overrated and not at all what is promised. God never promised anybody pots of money. The streets paved with gold are in the book of Revelation, not in the epistles or gospels. Too much emphasis is put on physical wealth, in the TWI version. And there is not enough "giving." Except to TWI, that is.
Folks, think how much you have! How many rooms in your house? How many cars in your garage? How many clothes for your body? How much access to healthcare, clean water, food?
Think also how impoverished some Christians in other countries are - maybe no shoes, maybe as much food for a week as you might eat for a snack between meals. Your physical wealth may well be at the expense of some poor soul in a third world country.
And yet - many of those people are so thankful for the deliverance, the clean hearts, the forgiveness of sins. Some are imprisoned, persecuted, ostracized from their communities. They consider themselves blessed, not punished for their lack of believing.
Beloved, I pray that you may prosper in every way and [that your body] may keep well, even as your soul keeps well and prospers.
Prosper is an old English word that just means "does well" with no implication of financial doing well.
Chambers Dictionary: prosperverb (prospered, prospering) 1 said of someone: intrans to do well, especially financially. 2 said of a business, etc: to thrive or flourish.
ETYMOLOGY: 15c: from French prospérer, from Latin prosperari to succeed.
My great grandfather's greeting, and his son, my grandfather's was, "How're you prospering?" meaning exactly the same as "How're you doing?" It doesn't mean, how's your bank balance? A plant can "prosper" in the garden. If you're going to use an archaic version of the Bible, ascribe meanings to the words that are archaic.
For instance, New Living Translation says this: "Dear friend, I hope all is well with you and that you are as healthy in body as you are strong in spirit"
NIV says: "Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well."
This material prosperity aspect was heavily pushed in PFAL, and also in a lot of other US televangelist church doctrines. It ain't so, folks.
The disconnect that bad things can and do happen is hardly mentioned. Yet these bad things are a "promise" in the gospels, by Jesus himself. Witness the lives (and deaths) of the early Christians. Witness the life of Paul as set out in Acts and the epistles (stoning? shipwreck? false imprisonment? despised by many? penniless, at times?). Witness - Hebrews! TWI would not like to scare people off by laying out that bad things happen too. That "the adversary" will score a direct hit once in a while, and lots of indirect hits.
Instead of God's grace, freely given, in always seeing us through - we got "God's legalism" - "You must believe this for that to happen."
Live life, stay faithful, stay thankful. Goes a long long way.
I've always translated pistis, most often translated "faith", as "That which you believe to the point that it affects your life in all you do and say" Kind of a mouthful. I just think of it as something I can apply in my life the same way I can 2+2=4. I have faith that 2+2=4, and I act accodingly any time I need to apply that formula. However for this to work the rules and information that it is based on must be accurate. I can only say that of specifics in the word of God. i.e. I can not say I'm believing for a blue Tesla and expect to receive it, unless God has specificly promised me a blue Tesla. I can believe, or put my trust in "God will meet my needs, as long as I do what he says." Big difference. Most of God's promises are general,not specific and have actions on our part that go with them.
Different people have different ideas of what having one's need me, but to be accurate it has to be in line with what God says it is.
I've always translated pistis, most often translated "faith", as "That which you believe to the point that it affects your life in all you do and say" Kind of a mouthful. I just think of it as something I can apply in my life the same way I can 2+2=4. I have faith that 2+2=4, and I act accodingly any time I need to apply that formula. However for this to work the rules and information that it is based on must be accurate. I can only say that of specifics in the word of God. i.e. I can not say I'm believing for a blue Tesla and expect to receive it, unless God has specificly promised me a blue Tesla. I can believe, or put my trust in "God will meet my needs, as long as I do what he says." Big difference. Most of God's promises are general,not specific and have actions on our part that go with them.
Different people have different ideas of what having one's need me, but to be accurate it has to be in line with what God says it is.
So, then, how does this make any sense when applied to "negative" believing?
According to the story in PFAL, the little boy died because of the fear (negative believing) in the heart of the mother. What promise is involved in this example?
Negitive believing is basicly just fear. The only way it really applies is that it can become a self fulfilling prophecy. We become so afraid of something that we do stuiped things that actually bring about what we are afraid of. As I said, the way that TWI taught believing, it took God out of the picture. You can only believe, or I prefer to say, have faith in what God promised. God never promised that the little boy would be hit by the car. Not a promise, not something that you can trust in. Fear can open a door for the devil to get through, but most of what gets through falls under the curse caused by Adam's fall. You get stuck by a thorn in one of two ways. 1) you grab it, which is carlessness, or 2) you don't see it and step on it, or some such thing. But the thorn, as I understand it, came about by the fall and the curse on the land. So... we are back to "**it happens" as a result of the fall of man.
Fear can also stop you from doing something that might help you, and stop you from putting your trust in God to receive deliverance. In the case of the little boy, the only way her fear could have caused the boy to get hit, is that she spent so much time with the boy because she was afraid he would get hit that she failed to teach the boy the proper way to cross the street. Instead she met him, did the looking and decision making for him, so he really didn't know what he was looking for when it was time to cross the street on his own.
As a father I see myself doing this sometimes. My son is in the 4-H Aerospace club. He builds a rocket for launching each year. The first year he needed help and I found myself getting frustrated as I tried to teach him and end up going , "no like this." and doing the work. He didn't learn the proper way to put together the rocket, because I didn't really train him. The next year I did better and let him do more of the work. The rocket didn't look as good, but he learned and the next year was a state fair entry.
I don't really see the point in ascribing polarity to a belief – I think that will tend to confuse the matter. It sort of hits me as a way to disconnect from reality. Besides being a way to compound the problem – for it may give one a false sense of security – in that if I'm thinking that my attitude, my positive or negative believing has some kind of governing influence on anything outside my head – I'm just setting myself up for failure & frustration.
Rather than focusing on positive or negative thinking - imho, a smart approach to a problem is realistic thinking. I think Proverbs 22:3 in NIV offers some good advice along theses lines – being vigilant & aware as we plan, make decisions, and act - "A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it." I think if we tend to "spiritualize" reality we'll tend to fall short on giving something our best shot – simply because we're spinning our wheels instead of engaging life head on.
I do think a positive or negative attitude bears some importance in terms of how it can influence one's productivity or even affect others close by [whether a spouse, colleagues or friends]. But even so – depending on how "mission critical" the situation is maybe some serious self-examination is in order and perhaps talking to others involved about it may reveal a cognitive distortion that one has been operating under.. . or simply give one a better handle on reality with the feedback from others.
And certainly things like determination, persistence, and courage are helpful for success but these are merely resources that fuel whatever effective skills we apply. I think that's where some TWI folks got lost – putting form over substance, just going through the motions, expecting to get something for nothing. The "law of believing" was like a magic shortcut – whereby one could bypass the time, discipline & work it takes to accomplish something.. . Imho critical & creative thinking are both necessary in problem solving - I think the wise person is one who knows when to zero in on the details of reality and when to think outside the box. But whether the process is critical or creative thinking - the person is actually thinking.
Bottom line – what I think is important is NOT a positive or negative view - but an accurate or realistic view. From that standpoint I think one is in a better position to take stock of a situation and then plan & act accordingly.
Fear doesn't seem to me to be "believing" of any sort. More like you suspect that something bad is going to happen no matter what you do! It looks to me like people who are afraid, in fear, of something are praying pretty hard for it not to happen.
Wierwille used the verse in Job (3:25?) to "prove" that fear brings on what you were afraid of. Correlation does not prove causation. Just because Job feared it and it happened does not mean that the fear caused it to happen.
God never promised that the little boy would be hit by the car. Not a promise, not something that you can trust in.
And yet Wierwille asserted that it was fear in the heart of the mother that caused the little boy's death.
Here's what VPW says on page 37 & 38 of Power For Abundant Living.
Believing: Faith and Fear
There are two types of believing: (1) positive and (2) negative. We either have faith or fear. We must recognize that believing has both a negative and positive side.
We are what we are today because of our believing. We will be tomorrow where our believing takes us. No one ever rises beyond what he believes and no one can believe more than what he understands. We believe what we believe because of what we have been taught. We think the way we think because of the way we have been led.
Believing is a law. As one believes, he receives. On the negative side, fear is believing in reverse; it produces ill results.
There is basically only one thing that ever defeats the believer, and that is fear. Fear is the believer's only enemy. *Fear is sand in the machinery of life.*
When we have fear, we cannot believe God and have faith. Fear has ruined more Christian lives than any other thing in the world.
If a person is afraid of not being able to hold a job, do you know what will happen? He will lose it. If one is afraid of a disease, he will manifest that disease because the law is that what one believes (in this case, what one believes negatively.), he is going to receive. People have fear of the future; they have a fear of death. Fear always encases, fear always enslaves, fear always binds. This law of negative and positive believing works for both Christian and non-Christian. When we believe, we receive the results of our believing of regardless of who or what we are.
(*Fear is sand in the machinery of life*--------E.S. Jones)
"In the case of the little boy, the only way her fear could have caused the boy to get hit, is that she spent so much time with the boy because she was afraid he would get hit that she failed to teach the boy the proper way to cross the street. Instead she met him, did the looking and decision making for him, so he really didn't know what he was looking for when it was time to cross the street on his own."
Not only is that pure conjecture, it contradicts the section of PFAL that I posted.
Wierwille said that to receive ANYTHING from God we must know:
1.What is available.
2.How to receive
3.What to do with it after we have it.
4.Need and Want must be parallel.
5.God's ability equals His willingness.
He went on to say that if we miss ANY ONE of these 5 points, we won't receive from God.
(I posted this particular reference a few months ago.)
So doesn't this make you wonder?
Hows come you have to do all this stuff to receive something good when, in order to receive something bad, you simply have to fear it.
(Remember---VPW said they are both "believing" and that "believing= receiving".)
Tremendous catch Waysider! That's why I keep coming to Grease Spot!
Doggonit - the darnedest thing too. It's easier to believe for stuff I DON"T WANT than for the things I do want. Man what a screwed up deal! Now if someone has a fear of the unknown I guess that's the carte blanche of what's available.
Hmmmm.. .you’ve given me a whole new PFALish outlook on life. Yup - I now have a tremendous fear of winning the Lotto. I bet God would have to change all the laws of the universe for the state of Texas not to accommodate me. Wow – speaking of bet – I ought to head to the racetrack for some revelation-betting. “Whawho! Come on Seabiscuit.. . ahem, I mean oh no Seabiscuit you can’t win on me now, daddy needs a new set of PFAL books!”
Wierwille said that to receive ANYTHING from God we must know:
1.What is available.
2.How to receive
3.What to do with it after we have it.
4.Need and Want must be parallel.
5.God's ability equals His willingness.
He went on to say that if we miss ANY ONE of these 5 points, we won't receive from God.
(I posted this particular reference a few months ago.)
So doesn't this make you wonder?
Hows come you have to do all this stuff to receive something good when, in order to receive something bad, you simply have to fear it.
(Remember---VPW said they are both "believing" and that "believing= receiving".)
I would agree to a point with the list posted above except that what is available MUST BE based on a specific promis of God. And from what I can see this would apply only to using your "faith like a tool" as Oral Roberts used to say. Howver I'm not absolutly sure about the needs and wants parallel point. I'm still working that, at this point...I don't see it. A promis is a promise. God can and often does go beyond oour ability just because He loves us. As far as fear being the reverse of believing or trust. I still stand by it. However since there is no specific promise attached to fear, it is without power except in the way it holds one back, or tricks someone into doing something stuipid, when you wouldn't normally. Why do we have to do more to receive from God? The answer is simple, we have gotten out of the habit of trusting God. Why do bad things happen, because of the curse. I have heard of areas people have not had as much science taught them, where recieving from God is seems to be much easier.
If you take what is posted above it makes sense. If you take the bad stuff as not promises but stuff that just happens because of the curse, it makes sense. If you enlarge on this as TWI did in it's teachings and try to apply it to issues not specificly promised in the Word of God, you have a form of Humanism. What is interesting is that if you have ever studied the Satanic Bible by Anton Levay, you will find these same principles promoted. He teaches believing = receiving without God being in the picture. God must be in the picture, and God often superseeds your faith to get us through. So in reality there are times when we will recieve dispite our belieivng, trust, faith, whatever you want to call it, just because God loves us.
So in reality there are times when we will receive despite our believing, trust, faith, whatever you want to call it, just because God loves us.
Well, maybe somebody should have told Wierwille that.
According to PFAL, all 5 cylinders have to be firing in perfect sequence or the dad-gum motor's gonna stall and leave you stranded by the side of the road. I just don't see how you can call "believing" a law that operates with the same precision as gravity. If you drop a PFAL book off of a tall building, it falls. It doesn't care if the building is brick or wood or has green shutters or even red drapes, it just falls----- flat.
I would be extremely surprised if this was never covered here before, but I'm going to say it again anyway
1.What is available.
Was he saying that God can't give something to a person if that person doesn't know that it's available? What happened to "exceeding abundantly above all that we could ask or think"?
2.How to receive
God isn't big enough to give you something in a manner that you won't know how to accept it? <_<
3.What to do with it after we have it.
Hey, people screw up gifts, whether from God or man all the time, what's the evidence that God doesn't give because his gift won't be utilized properly?
4.Need and Want must be parallel.
Forget the obvious grammatical silliness; are we to suppose that God can't give to you beyond your need?
I would agree to a point with the list posted above except that what is available MUST BE based on a specific promis of God. And from what I can see this would apply only to using your "faith like a tool" as Oral Roberts used to say. Howver I'm not absolutly sure about the needs and wants parallel point. I'm still working that, at this point...I don't see it. A promis is a promise. God can and often does go beyond oour ability just because He loves us. As far as fear being the reverse of believing or trust. I still stand by it. However since there is no specific promise attached to fear, it is without power except in the way it holds one back, or tricks someone into doing something stuipid, when you wouldn't normally. Why do we have to do more to receive from God? The answer is simple, we have gotten out of the habit of trusting God. Why do bad things happen, because of the curse. I have heard of areas people have not had as much science taught them, where recieving from God is seems to be much easier.
If you take what is posted above it makes sense. If you take the bad stuff as not promises but stuff that just happens because of the curse, it makes sense. If you enlarge on this as TWI did in it's teachings and try to apply it to issues not specificly promised in the Word of God, you have a form of Humanism.. .
<snip>
I disagree - the only way it makes sense to me is if I accept the same assumptions you present. I happen to hold an assumption that is contrary to yours. I tend to think there is a harmony of science & Scripture – with one being His works and the other His words. And a parallel thought to that is I think contradictions between science & Scripture may be due to misinterpretations of data or Scripture. I feel the more I learn about science the stronger my faith grows and the stronger my faith grows the more I enjoy learning about science.
What is interesting is that if you have ever studied the Satanic Bible by Anton Levay, you will find these same principles promoted. He teaches believing = receiving without God being in the picture.
It figures – vp plagiarized from Anton Levay too. Know what would be funny? A class coordinator announcing during a break: "Tonight we've got The Way Bookstore set up in the back of the class. Feel free to look over the books by other people too. They saw just bits and pieces of the whole enchilada you're now receiving through this class. There's Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" and of course Levay's Satanic Bible.. .We'll take a 10 minute break, there's stretched coffee on the snack table next to the Bookstore – and I'm believing for someone to bless me with a cigarette."
God must be in the picture, and God often superseeds your faith to get us through. So in reality there are times when we will recieve dispite our belieivng, trust, faith, whatever you want to call it, just because God loves us.
Maybe it's just me but what you've just said pretty much nixes everything you've said previously about the necessity of believing. And for what it's worth I think you and I have more in common with what you're saying here about God's preeminent, transcendent & benevolent role. And if indeed God often does supersede our faith – maybe folks should take the "law" out of their "law of believing" rhetoric.
Oakspear's post got me thinking - vp's list of receiving anything from God is a subtle attack on His sovereignty, omnipotence & omniscience. Buyer beware - vp's God isn't the all-powerful, all-knowing God of the Bible – just a construct, a reduction of a supreme being down to manageable proportions.
And that pretty much sums up religion in my book. Part of the appeal with many religions is the sense of control & power it gives the follower – maybe even to the extreme sometimes when in practice followers act like they can manipulate anyone - even the higher power.
I quoted the NLT of Ephesians 3:20 in my post # 48, and will do so again since it still is relevant - "Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think." in regards to vp's list, I think this passage contradicts vp's theology of receiving anything from God - it looks to me like the Bible puts the onus back on God.
Maybe it's just me but what you've just said pretty much nixes everything you've said previously about the necessity of believing. And for what it's worth I think you and I have more in common with what you're saying here about God's preeminent, transcendent & benevolent role. And if indeed God often does supersede our faith maybe folks should take the "law" out of their "law of believing" rhetoric.
Not really, I've just added another aspect to it. We can believe to receive God's promises because He has promised them. You can use your faith, or believing like a tool to receive that promise. What you are believing, is a promise of God and just like you sign a check to get money from your account your trust and faithfulness to God will yeild the result. It works every time, but only when it is a promise of God. However, God knows we are dust, and not perfect and there will be times when he blesses you even when you don't have the confidence in Him that you should have. I've seen this a lot in healing. When a person ministers healing he is operating the power of God, together with God, to bring about healing to an individual. From what I've read in the word, and regardless of what TWI taught, it is not absolutly nessessary for the person being healed to believe. From people I've talked to who have ministered healing. I'm not sure it is always nessessary for them to do anything except trust that God knows what he's doing and obey him.
However, I have also seen people take a promise and apply it to their lives. Like a tool to bring about a result. They believe that God healed them and trust Him and as a result they receive their healing. They work the word, and apply it to their lives trusting that God will bring the healing to pass. The result is that they are healed.
I have also unfortunatly seen people, myself included, who say the right words, and to all outward appearance seem to believe and trust in God and yet don't receive their healing. The reason is they really don't believe.
It's not as hard as it sounds. We make it too difficult. There are a lot of peole who are teaching believing and receiving out there, not just TWI. Most of them try to keep God in the picture, but they don't always succeed or our minds only hear part of the teaching and we go off half cocked and fall flat on our faces.
Fear on the other hand, is not really believing. It is the opposite of believing or trust. By including it in the Law of Believing, (or faith, trust and confidence) the waters are muddied.
Basicly the law of believing, (but not as stated by TWI) works. but God can superseed it. Why he does in some cases and not in others...I don't know.
But perhaps you are right, we should take the "law" out of believing. The law always causes us to focus on our lack of ability and brings failures. It is God's grace and mercy that really brings about the result through what Jesus did on the cross. Perhaps, rather than call it "a law" we should just say, "trust and love God and He will bring His promises to pass in your life." To me that is the real law of believing.
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T-Bone
A good point was made about TWI sorta eliminating God in the process of things - I see something very similar with the health & wealth/the power of believing fans focusing on any mention of faith,
waysider
You just had to ask, didn't you? The "believing against someone" idea comes from page 10 of the AC syllabus ©1971 ************************************************ KEYS TO WALKING BY THE SPIRIT
Oakspear
I see where you're coming from biblically, but I just don't see it in the observable world. I see no difference in general between Christians and non-Christians in any category; no difference between
Keith
I do think God promises that He will meet our needs. As far as wealth goes, I think how much we receive as a result of trusting Him may depend on what our needs really are and whether we let the wealth control us. I have to laugh at people who say they are "believing for" something. God really doesn't ever ask us to "believe for" anything, He asks us to trust in him. Big difference.
You are right that many people take as promises things that aren't. A bigger problem is that people often see the promise of something like wealth, but pay no attention to the service and worship that is to go with it. For example God says to give (he doesn't say where, just give) and He will give back to you. So many people give expecting to get back, and they should, but if they see it as a trade or investment it really isn't giving is it? You give with no strings attached, out of a joyfull heart. You give because you want to give regardless of whether you get anything back or not. Most people don't see that part of it. With every promise you see there is a corresponding action that goes with it. An there is often a heart attitude required as well. So it is not just trusting God, but obeying God from the heart as well.
And as with all things...God is greater than our heart.
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T-Bone
Good points Keith! And if I may express my opinion a little further – I've come to look at "needs" as a relative thing – besides the wonder-how-God-thinks-I-should-handle-this-factor ala Paul's thorn in the flesh dilemma. The "resolution" that God expressed to him was probably a whole lot different than what Paul had in mind. "You mean you're not going to do anything about that thorn in the flesh – you're just gonna give me enough strength so I can handle it?"
It's just my opinion but I think the Lord's prayer in Matthew 6 was intended to be a model of what we have a "right" to pray for – yup, it's rather sparse but maybe covers what the Lord thinks we "need" – sustenance for today, forgiveness and a forgiving attitude, moral guidance, etc. I think a modest attitude in prayer & lifestyle and a contentment with having God as our most treasured possession is alluded to by Paul in I Timothy 6:6-8. Something to think about – if all Christianity ever offered was Jesus – how many ministries would be interested in working for the cause?
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Keith
and God said "Yep"
I think you really hit the nail on the head. What God says we need and what we think we need are often two different things. There are some of us who do need lots and lots of money. But all of us don't. We should have enough though to have our real needs met, food, clothing, shelter, etc. And we should have enough to help others at least to a point. Ephesians says that the person who stole should steal no more and labor with his hands so that he would have to give to others. Why would it be any different for the rest of us. Seems like a good reason to work to me. I've lost a lot of money investing in a various friends businesess that after prayer I felt God led me to invest in with the idea that IF there was any profit I would have a percentage until the investment was returned with interest up to a certain amount, this was the only stipulation. If they failed, I got nothing. They all failed. I not only didn't make a profit, I didn't even get the money back. But two of them mentioned that if they had taken out a loan for the full amount without my money it was likely that they would have been bankrupt and possibly be homeless. Seems like a good deal to me. Money can be replaced. People can't. That's been my attitude with money for a long time and God has never faild to meet my needs and even a little more.
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cman
What is 'believing' would be a question.
Just for one's own personal understanding.
And that would vary and still be true, mostly, I think.
And then does believing have to equal anything?
Or does it. Is it stuck in a dead doctrine or flexible.
Certainly God has the say.
Is it not Hebrews where it speaks of different believing?
Much different even from chapter 1, as well as 11.
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Twinky
The "health and wealth" that T-Bone refers to is, in my opinion, overrated and not at all what is promised. God never promised anybody pots of money. The streets paved with gold are in the book of Revelation, not in the epistles or gospels. Too much emphasis is put on physical wealth, in the TWI version. And there is not enough "giving." Except to TWI, that is.
Folks, think how much you have! How many rooms in your house? How many cars in your garage? How many clothes for your body? How much access to healthcare, clean water, food?
Think also how impoverished some Christians in other countries are - maybe no shoes, maybe as much food for a week as you might eat for a snack between meals. Your physical wealth may well be at the expense of some poor soul in a third world country.
And yet - many of those people are so thankful for the deliverance, the clean hearts, the forgiveness of sins. Some are imprisoned, persecuted, ostracized from their communities. They consider themselves blessed, not punished for their lack of believing.
Prosper is an old English word that just means "does well" with no implication of financial doing well.
Chambers Dictionary: prosper verb (prospered, prospering) 1 said of someone: intrans to do well, especially financially. 2 said of a business, etc: to thrive or flourish.
ETYMOLOGY: 15c: from French prospérer, from Latin prosperari to succeed.
My great grandfather's greeting, and his son, my grandfather's was, "How're you prospering?" meaning exactly the same as "How're you doing?" It doesn't mean, how's your bank balance? A plant can "prosper" in the garden. If you're going to use an archaic version of the Bible, ascribe meanings to the words that are archaic.
For instance, New Living Translation says this: "Dear friend, I hope all is well with you and that you are as healthy in body as you are strong in spirit"
NIV says: "Dear friend, I pray that you may enjoy good health and that all may go well with you, even as your soul is getting along well."
This material prosperity aspect was heavily pushed in PFAL, and also in a lot of other US televangelist church doctrines. It ain't so, folks.
The disconnect that bad things can and do happen is hardly mentioned. Yet these bad things are a "promise" in the gospels, by Jesus himself. Witness the lives (and deaths) of the early Christians. Witness the life of Paul as set out in Acts and the epistles (stoning? shipwreck? false imprisonment? despised by many? penniless, at times?). Witness - Hebrews! TWI would not like to scare people off by laying out that bad things happen too. That "the adversary" will score a direct hit once in a while, and lots of indirect hits.
Instead of God's grace, freely given, in always seeing us through - we got "God's legalism" - "You must believe this for that to happen."
Live life, stay faithful, stay thankful. Goes a long long way.
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cman
If you figure out what it's not, maybe what it is will appear.
Or can it be seen anyway? What is looked for, just disproving or proving for ourselves, just cause we can.
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Keith
I've always translated pistis, most often translated "faith", as "That which you believe to the point that it affects your life in all you do and say" Kind of a mouthful. I just think of it as something I can apply in my life the same way I can 2+2=4. I have faith that 2+2=4, and I act accodingly any time I need to apply that formula. However for this to work the rules and information that it is based on must be accurate. I can only say that of specifics in the word of God. i.e. I can not say I'm believing for a blue Tesla and expect to receive it, unless God has specificly promised me a blue Tesla. I can believe, or put my trust in "God will meet my needs, as long as I do what he says." Big difference. Most of God's promises are general,not specific and have actions on our part that go with them.
Different people have different ideas of what having one's need me, but to be accurate it has to be in line with what God says it is.
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waysider
So, then, how does this make any sense when applied to "negative" believing?
According to the story in PFAL, the little boy died because of the fear (negative believing) in the heart of the mother. What promise is involved in this example?
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Keith
Negitive believing is basicly just fear. The only way it really applies is that it can become a self fulfilling prophecy. We become so afraid of something that we do stuiped things that actually bring about what we are afraid of. As I said, the way that TWI taught believing, it took God out of the picture. You can only believe, or I prefer to say, have faith in what God promised. God never promised that the little boy would be hit by the car. Not a promise, not something that you can trust in. Fear can open a door for the devil to get through, but most of what gets through falls under the curse caused by Adam's fall. You get stuck by a thorn in one of two ways. 1) you grab it, which is carlessness, or 2) you don't see it and step on it, or some such thing. But the thorn, as I understand it, came about by the fall and the curse on the land. So... we are back to "**it happens" as a result of the fall of man.
Fear can also stop you from doing something that might help you, and stop you from putting your trust in God to receive deliverance. In the case of the little boy, the only way her fear could have caused the boy to get hit, is that she spent so much time with the boy because she was afraid he would get hit that she failed to teach the boy the proper way to cross the street. Instead she met him, did the looking and decision making for him, so he really didn't know what he was looking for when it was time to cross the street on his own.
As a father I see myself doing this sometimes. My son is in the 4-H Aerospace club. He builds a rocket for launching each year. The first year he needed help and I found myself getting frustrated as I tried to teach him and end up going , "no like this." and doing the work. He didn't learn the proper way to put together the rocket, because I didn't really train him. The next year I did better and let him do more of the work. The rocket didn't look as good, but he learned and the next year was a state fair entry.
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T-Bone
I don't really see the point in ascribing polarity to a belief – I think that will tend to confuse the matter. It sort of hits me as a way to disconnect from reality. Besides being a way to compound the problem – for it may give one a false sense of security – in that if I'm thinking that my attitude, my positive or negative believing has some kind of governing influence on anything outside my head – I'm just setting myself up for failure & frustration.
Rather than focusing on positive or negative thinking - imho, a smart approach to a problem is realistic thinking. I think Proverbs 22:3 in NIV offers some good advice along theses lines – being vigilant & aware as we plan, make decisions, and act - "A prudent man sees danger and takes refuge, but the simple keep going and suffer for it." I think if we tend to "spiritualize" reality we'll tend to fall short on giving something our best shot – simply because we're spinning our wheels instead of engaging life head on.
I do think a positive or negative attitude bears some importance in terms of how it can influence one's productivity or even affect others close by [whether a spouse, colleagues or friends]. But even so – depending on how "mission critical" the situation is maybe some serious self-examination is in order and perhaps talking to others involved about it may reveal a cognitive distortion that one has been operating under.. . or simply give one a better handle on reality with the feedback from others.
And certainly things like determination, persistence, and courage are helpful for success but these are merely resources that fuel whatever effective skills we apply. I think that's where some TWI folks got lost – putting form over substance, just going through the motions, expecting to get something for nothing. The "law of believing" was like a magic shortcut – whereby one could bypass the time, discipline & work it takes to accomplish something.. . Imho critical & creative thinking are both necessary in problem solving - I think the wise person is one who knows when to zero in on the details of reality and when to think outside the box. But whether the process is critical or creative thinking - the person is actually thinking.
Bottom line – what I think is important is NOT a positive or negative view - but an accurate or realistic view. From that standpoint I think one is in a better position to take stock of a situation and then plan & act accordingly.
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Oakspear
Fear doesn't seem to me to be "believing" of any sort. More like you suspect that something bad is going to happen no matter what you do! It looks to me like people who are afraid, in fear, of something are praying pretty hard for it not to happen.
Wierwille used the verse in Job (3:25?) to "prove" that fear brings on what you were afraid of. Correlation does not prove causation. Just because Job feared it and it happened does not mean that the fear caused it to happen.
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waysider
And yet Wierwille asserted that it was fear in the heart of the mother that caused the little boy's death.
Here's what VPW says on page 37 & 38 of Power For Abundant Living.
Believing: Faith and Fear
There are two types of believing: (1) positive and (2) negative. We either have faith or fear. We must recognize that believing has both a negative and positive side.
We are what we are today because of our believing. We will be tomorrow where our believing takes us. No one ever rises beyond what he believes and no one can believe more than what he understands. We believe what we believe because of what we have been taught. We think the way we think because of the way we have been led.
Believing is a law. As one believes, he receives. On the negative side, fear is believing in reverse; it produces ill results.
There is basically only one thing that ever defeats the believer, and that is fear. Fear is the believer's only enemy. *Fear is sand in the machinery of life.*
When we have fear, we cannot believe God and have faith. Fear has ruined more Christian lives than any other thing in the world.
If a person is afraid of not being able to hold a job, do you know what will happen? He will lose it. If one is afraid of a disease, he will manifest that disease because the law is that what one believes (in this case, what one believes negatively.), he is going to receive. People have fear of the future; they have a fear of death. Fear always encases, fear always enslaves, fear always binds. This law of negative and positive believing works for both Christian and non-Christian. When we believe, we receive the results of our believing of regardless of who or what we are.
(*Fear is sand in the machinery of life*--------E.S. Jones)
**************************************************************
"In the case of the little boy, the only way her fear could have caused the boy to get hit, is that she spent so much time with the boy because she was afraid he would get hit that she failed to teach the boy the proper way to cross the street. Instead she met him, did the looking and decision making for him, so he really didn't know what he was looking for when it was time to cross the street on his own."
Not only is that pure conjecture, it contradicts the section of PFAL that I posted.
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waysider
Now consider this.
Wierwille said that to receive ANYTHING from God we must know:
1.What is available.
2.How to receive
3.What to do with it after we have it.
4.Need and Want must be parallel.
5.God's ability equals His willingness.
He went on to say that if we miss ANY ONE of these 5 points, we won't receive from God.
(I posted this particular reference a few months ago.)
So doesn't this make you wonder?
Hows come you have to do all this stuff to receive something good when, in order to receive something bad, you simply have to fear it.
(Remember---VPW said they are both "believing" and that "believing= receiving".)
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Oakspear
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T-Bone
Tremendous catch Waysider! That's why I keep coming to Grease Spot!
Doggonit - the darnedest thing too. It's easier to believe for stuff I DON"T WANT than for the things I do want. Man what a screwed up deal! Now if someone has a fear of the unknown I guess that's the carte blanche of what's available.
Hmmmm.. .you’ve given me a whole new PFALish outlook on life. Yup - I now have a tremendous fear of winning the Lotto. I bet God would have to change all the laws of the universe for the state of Texas not to accommodate me. Wow – speaking of bet – I ought to head to the racetrack for some revelation-betting. “Whawho! Come on Seabiscuit.. . ahem, I mean oh no Seabiscuit you can’t win on me now, daddy needs a new set of PFAL books!”
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Oakspear
Hmmmm...lessee...I'm afraid of wealth, happiness and long life...therefore...
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Keith
I would agree to a point with the list posted above except that what is available MUST BE based on a specific promis of God. And from what I can see this would apply only to using your "faith like a tool" as Oral Roberts used to say. Howver I'm not absolutly sure about the needs and wants parallel point. I'm still working that, at this point...I don't see it. A promis is a promise. God can and often does go beyond oour ability just because He loves us. As far as fear being the reverse of believing or trust. I still stand by it. However since there is no specific promise attached to fear, it is without power except in the way it holds one back, or tricks someone into doing something stuipid, when you wouldn't normally. Why do we have to do more to receive from God? The answer is simple, we have gotten out of the habit of trusting God. Why do bad things happen, because of the curse. I have heard of areas people have not had as much science taught them, where recieving from God is seems to be much easier.
If you take what is posted above it makes sense. If you take the bad stuff as not promises but stuff that just happens because of the curse, it makes sense. If you enlarge on this as TWI did in it's teachings and try to apply it to issues not specificly promised in the Word of God, you have a form of Humanism. What is interesting is that if you have ever studied the Satanic Bible by Anton Levay, you will find these same principles promoted. He teaches believing = receiving without God being in the picture. God must be in the picture, and God often superseeds your faith to get us through. So in reality there are times when we will recieve dispite our belieivng, trust, faith, whatever you want to call it, just because God loves us.
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waysider
Well, maybe somebody should have told Wierwille that.
According to PFAL, all 5 cylinders have to be firing in perfect sequence or the dad-gum motor's gonna stall and leave you stranded by the side of the road. I just don't see how you can call "believing" a law that operates with the same precision as gravity. If you drop a PFAL book off of a tall building, it falls. It doesn't care if the building is brick or wood or has green shutters or even red drapes, it just falls----- flat.
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Oakspear
I would be extremely surprised if this was never covered here before, but I'm going to say it again anyway
Was he saying that God can't give something to a person if that person doesn't know that it's available? What happened to "exceeding abundantly above all that we could ask or think"? God isn't big enough to give you something in a manner that you won't know how to accept it? <_< Hey, people screw up gifts, whether from God or man all the time, what's the evidence that God doesn't give because his gift won't be utilized properly?Forget the obvious grammatical silliness; are we to suppose that God can't give to you beyond your need? Oooookay...but why do we have to know this?Link to comment
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waysider
Excellent points, Oak.
Here's more Silly stuff:
Page 3/PFAL Silly-bus
FEAR IS BELIEVING
What you fear, you will receive--it's a law.
Fear is believing in reverse.
Page 4/PFAL Silly-bus
Fear and faith both operate by believing. Both work with a mathematical exactness and scientific precision.
edit: And this is from a guy who scoffed at science and called it imprecise.
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waysider
5.God's ability equals His willingness.
Oooookay...but why do we have to know this?
Because if you get a flat tire and God has a jack, He'll play hide-and-seek with you unless you call his bluff.
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T-Bone
I disagree - the only way it makes sense to me is if I accept the same assumptions you present. I happen to hold an assumption that is contrary to yours. I tend to think there is a harmony of science & Scripture – with one being His works and the other His words. And a parallel thought to that is I think contradictions between science & Scripture may be due to misinterpretations of data or Scripture. I feel the more I learn about science the stronger my faith grows and the stronger my faith grows the more I enjoy learning about science.
It figures – vp plagiarized from Anton Levay too.
Know what would be funny? A class coordinator announcing during a break: "Tonight we've got The Way Bookstore set up in the back of the class. Feel free to look over the books by other people too. They saw just bits and pieces of the whole enchilada you're now receiving through this class. There's Bullinger's "How to Enjoy the Bible" and of course Levay's Satanic Bible.. .We'll take a 10 minute break, there's stretched coffee on the snack table next to the Bookstore – and I'm believing for someone to bless me with a cigarette."
Maybe it's just me but what you've just said pretty much nixes everything you've said previously about the necessity of believing. And for what it's worth I think you and I have more in common with what you're saying here about God's preeminent, transcendent & benevolent role. And if indeed God often does supersede our faith – maybe folks should take the "law" out of their "law of believing" rhetoric.
Oakspear's post got me thinking - vp's list of receiving anything from God is a subtle attack on His sovereignty, omnipotence & omniscience. Buyer beware - vp's God isn't the all-powerful, all-knowing God of the Bible – just a construct, a reduction of a supreme being down to manageable proportions.
And that pretty much sums up religion in my book. Part of the appeal with many religions is the sense of control & power it gives the follower – maybe even to the extreme sometimes when in practice followers act like they can manipulate anyone - even the higher power.
I quoted the NLT of Ephesians 3:20 in my post # 48, and will do so again since it still is relevant - "Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think." in regards to vp's list, I think this passage contradicts vp's theology of receiving anything from God - it looks to me like the Bible puts the onus back on God.
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waysider
Yes, indeed. "More than we can ask or think." How DOES one squeeze "the law of believing" into that verse?
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Keith
Not really, I've just added another aspect to it. We can believe to receive God's promises because He has promised them. You can use your faith, or believing like a tool to receive that promise. What you are believing, is a promise of God and just like you sign a check to get money from your account your trust and faithfulness to God will yeild the result. It works every time, but only when it is a promise of God. However, God knows we are dust, and not perfect and there will be times when he blesses you even when you don't have the confidence in Him that you should have. I've seen this a lot in healing. When a person ministers healing he is operating the power of God, together with God, to bring about healing to an individual. From what I've read in the word, and regardless of what TWI taught, it is not absolutly nessessary for the person being healed to believe. From people I've talked to who have ministered healing. I'm not sure it is always nessessary for them to do anything except trust that God knows what he's doing and obey him.
However, I have also seen people take a promise and apply it to their lives. Like a tool to bring about a result. They believe that God healed them and trust Him and as a result they receive their healing. They work the word, and apply it to their lives trusting that God will bring the healing to pass. The result is that they are healed.
I have also unfortunatly seen people, myself included, who say the right words, and to all outward appearance seem to believe and trust in God and yet don't receive their healing. The reason is they really don't believe.
It's not as hard as it sounds. We make it too difficult. There are a lot of peole who are teaching believing and receiving out there, not just TWI. Most of them try to keep God in the picture, but they don't always succeed or our minds only hear part of the teaching and we go off half cocked and fall flat on our faces.
Fear on the other hand, is not really believing. It is the opposite of believing or trust. By including it in the Law of Believing, (or faith, trust and confidence) the waters are muddied.
Basicly the law of believing, (but not as stated by TWI) works. but God can superseed it. Why he does in some cases and not in others...I don't know.
But perhaps you are right, we should take the "law" out of believing. The law always causes us to focus on our lack of ability and brings failures. It is God's grace and mercy that really brings about the result through what Jesus did on the cross. Perhaps, rather than call it "a law" we should just say, "trust and love God and He will bring His promises to pass in your life." To me that is the real law of believing.
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