Believing Equals Receiving

[ClayJay]

Read, read, read those threads – think about the money you gave, the time and energy you spent to support and perpetuate a parasitic system of abuse

I regret none of it. It is where Life led me, and I accept all of the good with all of the bad. Just like any other places I have been in Life and have learned from ther good and the bad.

And to the one guy who said that the "law of believing ruined more lives"...Well, it didn't ruin my life at all! Whether it is a "law" or not certainly may be debatable, but the way it went into my head, the way I perceived it and became a person who learned to trust God did nothing but help me as it still does today! And I have been Out for a very long time. I don't go to church, and don't hang with any splinter group, except now, I guess I am hanging with this Way Ministry splinter group.

Waysider, in remembrance of someone else's quotation, and how I thought it was worded a different way, you said;

So are you now implying that "believing" is not always required?

Oh come on Waysider, you may not like my opinions, and that is just fine. But gimme a break will ya? Are you going to snip out of context a portion of my remembered quotation of someone else's so that you can "prove" that I am being "contradictory"? The point of "whether I believe it or not" is to say that "God's Word is true whether or not we believe it". I may certainly be a big target around here because my beliefs are not in lockstep with the rest of youz guyz, but at least you can disagree honestly like Old Skool did.

You people are funny.

Edited November 5, 2009 by ClayJay

[Tzaia]

You people are funny.

Which is the basis of all conflict - the inability to see people as "we".

[grand-daughter]

After reading many many posts on here I must say I'm thankful for this fact of myself. I read and reread the blue book I don't know how many times but never really got it or believed it for some reason. I believe in God and believe the bible is his word, therefore I had to definately learn to trust him and to believe but this is the way I think. I believe it when he says to trust him and have no fear but that doesnt mean I have ever been opposed to say seeking a doctor for my child when they needed it. Some may say well then you didn't believe God. I say quite the contrary, I just believe God can work in the doctor. As for material abundance or safety or any other thing you want to put in the category of you must believe God for it, I say this.... God said he would take care of me but that doesnt mean I shouldn't be wise about things just because I confessed his word orally and it also doesn't mean I shouldn't do my part such as work or the such. So call me simple I believe God and try not to fear but this world is a scary place at times.

[ClayJay]

Grand-Daughter,

First of all, I love your screen name. It's so...respectful!

Anyway, I agree with everything you said. I too get scared in this old world at times. And I too have taken myself to the doctor a time or twenty. Yet at other times I have prayed and God has delivered me. Lord knows I am not saying that I have never feared! Shoot fire, of course I have! But when I don't, and trust Gods' promises instead, I see His deliverance. I am simply thankful that God's Word is so SOLID that I can trust that He will answer my prayers when I trust Him to do so. Fear is always gnawing at our minds, but thank Jesus that we can follow his exampleship in not succumbing to the fear. No doubt he had major fear right in his face, yet he faced it down and told it to "go to hell" so ta speak. And because he did it, we too can do the same, and that old devil has gotta back off from us, yeah!! I hate that sumbitch. One day he'll get his.

[grand-daughter]

Grand-Daughter,

First of all, I love your screen name. It's so...respectful!

Anyway, I agree with everything you said. I too get scared in this old world at times. And I too have taken myself to the doctor a time or twenty. Yet at other times I have prayed and God has delivered me. Lord knows I am not saying that I have never feared! Shoot fire, of course I have! But when I don't, and trust Gods' promises instead, I see His deliverance. I am simply thankful that God's Word is so SOLID that I can trust that He will answer my prayers when I trust Him to do so. Fear is always gnawing at our minds, but thank Jesus that we can follow his exampleship in not succumbing to the fear. No doubt he had major fear right in his face, yet he faced it down and told it to "go to hell" so ta speak. And because he did it, we too can do the same, and that old devil has gotta back off from us, yeah!! I hate that sumbitch. One day he'll get his.

Sorry ClayJay, you may think my name is respectful but in all honesty its a slam against all that i have been through and those that put me through it.

[oenophile]

You can believe for poop to smell like a rose but its still going to smell like poop. The "law" of believing was used as a weapon against people who were sick or going through some other patch of (for want of a better term) hard luck. Criticizing someone for their "believing" when in these circumstances added to their misery and made the pious antagonist feel spiritually superior all the while being a miserable comforter.

Edited November 6, 2009 by oenophile

[ClayJay]

Oh. "Grand Daughter" is a satyrical statement. That's cool.

[T-Bone]

.. .

.. .and I don't really offer much of an explanation, other than to tell you what happened. One time when I was a wow, I prayed for a car. . .

I regret none of it. It is where Life led me, and I accept all of the good with all of the bad. Just like any other places I have been in Life and have learned from ther good and the bad.

And to the one guy who said that the "law of believing ruined more lives"...Well, it didn't ruin my life at all! Whether it is a "law" or not certainly may be debatable, but the way it went into my head, the way I perceived it and became a person who learned to trust God did nothing but help me as it still does today! And I have been Out for a very long time. I don't go to church, and don't hang with any splinter group, except now, I guess I am hanging with this Way Ministry splinter group.. .

Yeah - but you still wouldn't happen to be a WOW Ambassador would ya? Back in my day it was only a one year program. Did TWI change something or did you just lose track of time?

[Sudo]

ClayJay,

You're not getting any support on this thread are you? Obviously you're not believing correctly. You need to get your needs and your wants parallel, man. You're not still in debt by any chance? Hee-hee!

sudo

[Broken Arrow]

That's what the original bumper stickers looked like.

("God said it, I believe it, That settles it")

I think this may have come from a sermon that Billy Graham gave at one of his crusades in the early 1970's.

Not to be one-upped as the World's authority on spiritual matters, Wierwille feigned indignation and insisted his revision was the only accurate one.

Riiiiiiiiight!

edit: VPW taught this in a big public meeting so there's a good chance it's on tape somewhere. There was an incident in my local area (which I've posted before) that precipitated the public teaching. That's why it sticks so tightly to my memory.

Waysider, if my memory serves me correctly, didn't someone give him a gift that was a plaque that had that saying on it? Then he went into a tirade after he received the gift? I remember hearing it on a Sunday Night Service tape. But I could have the incident mixed up.

Edited November 7, 2009 by erkjohn

[waysider]

Waysider, if my memory serves me correctly, didn't someone give him a gift that was a plaque that had that saying on it? Then he went into a tirade after he received the gift? I remember hearing it on a Sunday Night Service tape. But I could have the incident mixed up.

My memory on all the details is fuzzy. I don't remember if it was a plaque or a piece of hand-tooled leather. For all I know, there may have been more than one instance. The one I am referencing , if I recall correctly, occurred in about 1974, at Lakewood (Ohio) Public Hall.

Whether it was this particular one or a similar one he referenced at a SNS, I don't know.

Edited November 8, 2009 by waysider

[waysider]

I remember hearing that believing was required of all except the insane, those too young to know enough to believe and the dead.

Actually, I believe it was taught that they themselves were not required to believe but believing by someone else was required on their behalf.

[WordWolf]

Actually, I believe it was taught that they themselves were not required to believe but believing by someone else was required on their behalf.

That's how it went. The "example" given was the father of the possessed kid,

[Tzaia]

Clay - if you want to receive what you believe to receive that's fine, but don't you think that limits God a bit? How can you be sure that what you are believing for is really in your best interest? Perhaps you should believe for God's will to be done in your life no matter what you think that should look like.

I do believe that you tend to attract what you think in your mind, but even if that's negative that's not always a bad thing - unlike what was taught in TWI.

TWI's teaching on negative believing was incredibly manipulative. It was designed to allow them to make demands on people that robbed them of their time, money, and family relationships. The natural reaction to those demands when they overtake one's life is negative thoughts, which weren't tolerated all that well.

[Keith]

I don't really have a problem with believing = receiving. But before you all chime in and say what an idot I am I will add that I don't believe it the way TWI taught it. We believe to receive that which God has already promised us, but if it is not a specific promise, all the believing in the world won't bring it to pass. Like the "poop example" above. The problem with TWI teaching is that they taught than anything could be believed for. Which is not biblicly true. Personally, I would rather say trusting God about what He says will get you to the point of receiving His promise.

Even saying this, don't put God in a box. He can work a miracle without your believing and often does and we are human, God knows it, loves us and would rather see you go to a doctor and get help than not get any help. I've found that God often works through Doctors. And perhaps the most important rule is Don't condemn yourself,don't condemn others and don't let anyone else condemn you. Condemning someone just tears down their ability to trust God.

[Oakspear]

But before you all chime in and say what an idot I am...

Huh? Have "we all" called you an idiot before?

[Ham]

Back when I had the class, I loved this part of it where Dr. Wierwille taught about how believing equals receiving

It might be a *small* point, but you do realize he wasn't a "doctor" don't you? i.e. he never had a legitimate doctorate degree..

maybe he BELIEVED he did..

[waysider]

One of the problems I used to see was the practice of finding a "promise" that covered whatever you had decided to "believe" for. Take, for example, the problem of domestic violence and abusive behavior that found its way into TWI. Not only could people find scriptures to rationalize it, they could find blanket promises that justified using "believing" to remedy the problem. I don't care what promises you can find in the Word that would seem to cover it, simple "believing" and speaking in tongues is not going to fix the problem.

In the original PFAL class, the "law of believing" was actually called the "magic of believing". I think that's really more accurate. It's the practice of using some magical power to change something in the physical realm by simply thinking about it.

Here's something from page 25 of "The Orange Book".

"In every Scriptural account in the Word of God where a miracle took place or where God did a mighty work, the principles pointed out in the previous chapter were present. The persons involved knew what was available, how to receive what they needed, and what to do with it after they received, and they had their needs and wants coordinated knowing that God's ability equals His willingness to keep his promises. When keys are understood, we can read any place from Genesis to Revelation and see this pattern."

Purely philosophical rubbish, IMO. People suffered; some literally died, trying to "believe" for things that were supposedly covered by blanket promises. Take, for example, the people who were raped and killed trying to use "believing" to guarantee safe passage to L.E.A.D. And when it didn't work, leadership simply turned the blame back on the victims and claimed it proved the validity of believing from a negative vantage. It's dangerous stuff, playing with fire, lost mojo, bad chicken any way you slice it.

Edited November 19, 2009 by waysider

[Bramble]

Can a person practice the law of believing without condemnation creeping in?

If you believe your believing is responsible for all the ills you experience in life, isn't life one big check up from the neck up? Especially when bad/sad things do happen unexpectedly? An illness, a lay off, a child's accident... Doesn't the mind then go to 'Where did I miss it? How could I have blown it this bad?'

Seems to me that is a built in part of the Law of Believing in practical application.

[Oakspear]

Like so many things, I just don't think that there's any evidence that the Law of Believing, believing God's promises or whatever you want to call it, works. Even if you're a believer in the innerrancy of the bible, if something doesn't work, maybe you just are reading it wrong, jumping to the wrong conclusions, misunderstanding. You can prove anything if you pick the right combination of verses, but if it's true, there should definitely be real world confirmation of it, wouldn't you think? For all the anecdotes about people receiving what they "believed for", the percentage of believing that really did, honest to God, 100% equal receiving, was not very high, was it? If the bible is God's Word and if it clearly says that what you believe you will receive, then you will receive what you believe; there wouldn't be any of this hedging, explaining, blaming etc that accompanied lack of receiving.

[Keith]

Huh? Have "we all" called you an idiot before?

It was meant to be joke, I just forgot to put the smiley in. :wacko: Of course, since I mis-spelled idiot in my post.... maybe it was a good call.

I think the biggest problem with TWI teachings is that they took God out of the picture. I always remember the verse that says "if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart." He's greater than our ability to believe too.

[kimberly]

The way vpw taught believing equals receiving...no, I do not believe it. It put the focus on us humans, we were the superheroes if something grand and wonderful happened.

I remember one wow year the theme was, If it's to be, it's up to me. I think now, oh my God how arrogant, how self serving. See...the focus was on us, the people. The pressure and repercussions were on us poor little souls that just wanted to do what was right. If God did not work or bring about miracles it was our fault because we didn't believe.

It has been my experience in my own little corner in my own little room that my Father goes beyond what I ask or think.

[T-Bone]

I think the biggest problem with TWI teachings is that they took God out of the picture. I always remember the verse that says "if our heart condemns us, God is greater than our heart." He's greater than our ability to believe too.

The way vpw taught believing equals receiving...no, I do not believe it. It put the focus on us humans, we were the superheroes if something grand and wonderful happened.

I remember one wow year the theme was, If it's to be, it's up to me. I think now, oh my God how arrogant, how self serving. See...the focus was on us, the people. The pressure and repercussions were on us poor little souls that just wanted to do what was right. If God did not work or bring about miracles it was our fault because we didn't believe.

It has been my experience in my own little corner in my own little room that my Father goes beyond what I ask or think.

Yup – the passage you alluded to seems to take the "law of believing" out of the picture - Ephesians 3:20 in New Living Translation "Now all glory to God, who is able, through his mighty power at work within us, to accomplish infinitely more than we might ask or think."

I believe the difference comes down to the locus of power. The law of believing proponents assumes things happen because of something they think or do. Whereas Ephesians 3:20 speaks of an omnipotent God whose unseen activity is immeasurably above and beyond us - certainly not bound by any limitations that we could imagine.

The guy who wrote the chapter "Are You Limiting God?" in the Blue Book also said the believer's fear binds the omnipotence of God in "Lifelines". Seems contradictory to me.

[Oakspear]

The flip side of the LOB's "taking God out of the equation" is that it takes the blame off God when bad things happen...got run over by a truck? It must be your believing; it wasn't God's fault!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a proponent of the LOB or its implications within TWI, it was a blame game, full of condemnation, but the position that we have nothing to do with what happens and it's 100% God assumes a capricious and arbitrary God who might bless one person "beyond what they could ask or think", while another sinks in poverty; might miraculously turn away a hurricane one day while the next a tsunami kills thousands.

The reason that the LOB appealed to me back when I first took PFAL was that it tried to explain why it wasn't God's fault when things went awry.

[Keith]

The flip side of the LOB's "taking God out of the equation" is that it takes the blame off God when bad things happen...got run over by a truck? It must be your believing; it wasn't God's fault!

Don't get me wrong, I'm not a proponent of the LOB or its implications within TWI, it was a blame game, full of condemnation, but the position that we have nothing to do with what happens and it's 100% God assumes a capricious and arbitrary God who might bless one person "beyond what they could ask or think", while another sinks in poverty; might miraculously turn away a hurricane one day while the next a tsunami kills thousands.

The reason that the LOB appealed to me back when I first took PFAL was that it tried to explain why it wasn't God's fault when things went awry.

Personally, I always thought these types of things were a)Satan's fault - because he doesn't like us very much. or Adam's fault, because he is the one who let Satan become God of this world. When stuff goes wrong, even things like sickness it's because of the Adam's sin which cursed the world as well. In other words "***t happens" Where our believing is involved is in the area of trusting God for His deliverace. I've never really liked the word "believe" as a translation of the word "Pistis", I prefer faith, which TWI wouldn't like, because it implies confidence,trust and steadfastness. As far as believing goes I might believe someone, but not trust them but if I have faith in you, I believe you, trust you, and have confidence in you.

I do believe that we need to trust God if we are going to receive His promises. If we trust Him,I believe we will receive without fail. Nowhee in the word that I know of does it say we will be without problems. In fact Jesus said "In the world you will have trouble." Then he says, "be of good cheer for I have overcome the world." So it isn't that we will not have trouble. That's the result of Adam's mess up, but that we will be able to get through it...no matter how long it takes. The issue with "believing = recieving" as TWI taught it. God was out of the picutre, it was all on you. Recently I read a comment about recieving from God. The person pointed out that we often want microwave results, but God often marinates. (I know I've spelled that wrong, but my spell check is down right now.)