So, the question is I guess, does any one here still believe this?
No, I don't believe that "believing equals receiving" or that "the law of believing" is validated by any of the scriptures you touched on. Wierwille got a lot of this stuff from "new age" thinkers, such as Norman Vincent Peale, and slapped a few scriptures on it to give it a facade of credibility.
I have to assume, at this point, that you haven't spent much time examining the wealth of information available here at GSC regarding the so-called "law of believing". You might start on the home page if you're open minded enough to buck the lessons of session #7 (ie:"never even allow yourself to consider.")
So, the question is I guess, does any one here still believe this?
No, it is untrue. Believing does not = receiving. There are multiple verses taken out of context to support this ideal but it simply is not true. God fulfills his Word. Jesus Christ is the very active Head of his Body. You and I do not bring to pass God's promises - God does. And Jesus does what God has given him to do. Our job is to have faith, trust, rely on God. It's God's promises and it's up to God to fulfill them. Realizing this lifted an immense burden from my shoulders.
Back when I had the class, I loved this part of it where Dr. Wierwille taught about how believing equals receiving. Well, I am not sure whether it actually "equals" receiving, but I simply loved the truth that when the promises of God that I learned in the Bible were coupled with my belief that the promises would come to pass, viola! It happened! And I also learned that if I "feared", then things not so good would happen. I remember a verse in Proverbs that says "The fear of man bringeth a snare, but whoever trusts in the Lords will be safe". All of that made total sense to me. So, even though not everything in The Way was right on with the Word, I certainly loved the good things that I was taught, and God must have have had a serious hand in it somewhere. Funny how God can work in most any situation it seems. Like when God was able to even work with that guy Baalim in the old testament, as crooked as he was. So, I don't know if it equals receiving, but believing is the way to go instead of reaping all of lifes' troubles! And that's good enough for me!
So, the question is I guess, does any one here still believe this? I noticed that somone else here, down in the political threads doesn't seem to believe it anymore.
After leaving TWI many years ago and eventually making my peace with reality – "believing equals receiving" became one of the many dubious TWI doctrines I got rid of. But believing equals perceiving may be a valid equation worth considering. Beliefs shape how we "see" the world. We've all heard the expression "we see what we want to see". In many ways, so true.
I think it's a real eye-opener for ex-TWI folks to re-examine everything they've absorbed and try looking at the world without the PFAL-colored glasses. I know we all make mental maps of life – and the older I get the more I believe the TWI mindset was really out of touch with reality. I admit PFAL made sense to me at one time. But the simple lessons of life under the tutelage of observation & experience have proven so much of PFAL nonsense.
Consider who sold you this idea of God working through a crooked guy like Balaam – it wouldn't happen to be vp, would it? I remember him teaching that a few times. I don't mean to burst your bubble or anything – but I tend to think when ex-TWI folks talk about how God could work through even a crooked guy like Balaam they still haven't come to terms with the reality of being fooled by a wolf in a sheep suit – a situation that is addressed far more frequently in the Bible [i.e. the many passages that contain warnings about deceivers, spiritual predators, false prophets, teachers, & messiahs]. And it's addressed in a clear, obvious & direct manner – not like the silly inferences & outlandish assertions of vp's teaching style.
There's a lot of things that kinda freaked me out when I first joined Grease Spot and have experienced the shock that hits you right between the eyes, not knowing what to make of it all – then going through denial. What's great about this place is the freedom & support available to re-examine our whole TWI experience, develop critical thinking skills and begin taking ownership of our belief system. Perhaps a more appropriate situation to identify with is the crisis of Paul's conversion. After Jesus knocked him off his high horse – Paul didn't throw out the Old Testament. Instead he worked on getting rid of the Pharisee mindset when reading the Old Testament. For Christians who leave TWI it's a matter of shucking the PFAL mindset. This brings me to my last point.
In PFAL, vp says God would have to change all the laws of the universe to keep from accommodating someone who set the time of their death. That makes the law of believing bigger than God. Think about this gem – "The believer's fear binds the omnipotence of God" from page 19 of "Lifelines: Quotations of Victor Paul Wierwille". Does that even make sense? Bind God's omnipotence? And that's from the same guy who wrote "Are You Limiting God?" .. . uhm, in case you hadn't noticed yet, vp's god and the God mentioned in Genesis 1:1 are not one and the same. Nuff said.
In PFAL, vp says God would have to change all the laws of the universe to keep from accommodating someone who set the time of their death. That makes the law of believing bigger than God. Think about this gem – "The believer's fear binds the omnipotence of God" from page 19 of "Lifelines: Quotations of Victor Paul Wierwille". Does that even make sense? Bind God's omnipotence? And that's from the same guy who wrote "Are You Limiting God?" .. . uhm, in case you hadn't noticed yet, vp's god and the God mentioned in Genesis 1:1 are not one and the same. Nuff said.
Wow. Just follow the logic a little further. If I was really, faithfully afraid of the rapture would God have to postpone it until my fear was satiated? Egads.
Despite the fact that the LAW OF BELIEVING has been endorsed by such notable sages as Norman Vincent Peale, Pollyanna, and Jiminy Cricket, it is - in fact - utter Bollchit.
And if you haven't figured that out by now, you really haven't been paying much attention, have you?
I think more noteworthy aphorisms to guide one through life might be: "Life's a bitch and then you die" or possibly "He who dies with the most toys wins" or maybe my Sainted Grandmother's favorite "Life is yust vun coddam ting after anuder".
The really sad part about the law of believing was how it played out in the group of believers. Everyone would have ups and downs, things that didn't come to pass...but when a faithful believer was struck with a tragedy, say a death or a terrible illness, there was no comfort. It was 'check up from the neck up' 'how did the adversary get in there' reproof and correction. Cold shoulders because 'weakness brings down strenght. Perhaps in TWI(90's) it would be a case for a LOA.
While in other churches, those same issues would have galvanized the church into prayer, perhaps meals organized, volunteer sitters and housekeepers, fund raising for bills--you know, a caring community pulling together to help one of their own. heck, even my Dad's Moose Lodge did that type of stuff!
I was in TWI 20 years, never saw it happen--though we did provide meals and cleaning for leaders.
Regardless of the "formula for success" or the "formula for defeat", the Word of God still stands. I for one (and maybe many of you too) did not like at all the many "formulas" for this and that. For instance: "Believing images of victory", The "Four D's Of Doulos Doins" (decision desire details and deliverance), etcetera. But, on this subject of "believing, the word of God still stands. And remember I didn't say I believed in the "believing equals receiving" formula as was taught us. But I do believe that in order to receive from God, we must first believe. Now, Old Skool said this:
You and I do not bring to pass God's promises - God does
Now Old Skool, that is exactly right. God is the one who brings to pass His promises. But if the Bible is to be our standard concerning "God things"-and to some here I guess this wouldn't apply-then there are certain things within it that simply cannot be ignored. For instance the record of Jesus casting the spirit out of the boy who was possessed of an evil spirit in Mark 9:17
Mark 9:17-24 (King James Version)
17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;
18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
20And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief
Now, this record always kind of cracked me up in a way. I mean, here is this terribly distraught Dad, with a son he no doubt loves dearly, hoping that for once, since he'd heard all of the good things about Jesus, that maybe his son could become normal and at peace and no longer tormented. He'd already had a failed experience with the disciples, yet no deliverance for his beloved son. He explains things to Jesus, and then brings the boy (young boy? Young man who was his son? Dunno) over to Jesus, and immediately the spirit tore into him. And there was his son wallowing on the ground, foaming at the mouth, no doubt making for a very disturbing scene, and what does Jesus do? Did he immediately bend down and calm the boy with a "touch"? Did he immediately tell the father to "dip his son in the Jordan seven times" or some such thing? No, he didn't. So while the kid was kickin' up the ground and chawin' all around, Jesus (I picture him saying it calmly), says to the father; "And so, how long has this been going on"? I mean, this is the part that sorta cracks me up! This terribly distraught Dad, wanting help and no doubt desperate, ends up having Jesus "start a conversation with him" while this spirit is ripping into his son's body violently and terribly.
And after the man gave an emotional history of all this, incredibly, Jesus then says to him; "If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth".
Whoa! C'mon Jesus! Where's da love?! Dis guyz kid is all over the ground, and you tell him that he has to "believe" first?! Then someone from the crowd yells; "Hey! Let's forget dis guy Jesus! Let's get dat kid to da hospital!" And then no doubt, some woman, a MOM yells; "How dare you Jesus! Here is this man and his son in a terrible plight, and you have the audacity to tell him to "just believe"! Shame on you you mindless cultist!"
But no, Jesus, the healer of broken hearts first makes known the requirement for the boy's deliverance, and the Dad accepts this and responds with "Lord I believe". And the boy is delivered. And man, what joy they both must have experienced! Thank you Jesus for showing us the way! (no pun intended)
And then there is the record of Peter walking on the water and how Jesus said to him as he began to sink. Here's the record from Matthew 14:
29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
And so again we see that it was the fear and lack of believing that caused the failure and began to send Peter to the bottom of Davy Jones's locker and that faith or believing is the only alternative for deliverance. Why then would Jesus say these things if they were not true? I mean, these things are in there, why throw them out because we had a bad experience with "formulas" when we were in The Way? Of course once again, this is all based on the premise that God is real, Jesus is real, and that the Bible is actually the Word of God. And I have noticed that many here do not believe that, so, that's fine, folks may believe what they will. But for those who have a belief in God according to the Bible like myself, I simply cannot dismiss the multitude of examples found in the Bible concerning the admonition to notfear, but rather tobelieve
Now. The pre-packaged "formulas"? No, I never liked those. But the basic truth of "The fear of man bringeth a snare, but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe" (Proverbs 29:25) is something I will always be thankful to have learned when I was in The Way. You may say that I "could have learned that in some other church", and to this I have to say that you are absolutely right. But I learned this while in The Way, and it was, and still is very good. I think that on this one, there is a crying Baby out on your lawn or in the snow where some of you threw out the bathwater. Go pick up the Baby and leave the rest behind.
Believing or fear do not of themselves wield external power according to some law God set in place and even subjected himself to. If you look at the records of Jesus telling them to believe you see that believing, faith, trust is required to receive. God does require faith. Also, when Jesus reproved his disciples for lack of faith it was in the context of bringing miracles and healings to pass. Other times was for not having faith in what God had promised them in his Word.
Faith was required on the receiver and on the one doing the miracle. That is completely different from some sinner sitting around concentrating on something and magically bring it to pass of his own volition according to the law of believing. And also completely different from some saint getting better results from the same method. Or worse yet thinking that he appropriates the promises of God by his believing. Having faith in God is foundational for fellowship. And he explicitly requires it of his people. So I have faith in God to fulfill his Word - but it is God who brings it to pass, not me. On the other hand you also see Jesus doing great miracles. God's power brought these miracles to pass and Jesus had faith in God and in himself to carry out the work God gave him to do by the spirit upon him. That's the best I can clarify my intent in the quote you have.
I'm down with that. Makes sense. It used to kill me when driving with some one, and the driver would yell at the red light; "God! Make that light turn green in the name a Jesus Christ!" And it would then stay red. Or, it might turn green simply because the timing was that it was to turn green. And then the driver would give me sage look like; "see the power I have"?
But I'll tell you this, and I don't really offer much of an explanation, other than to tell you what happened. One time when I was a wow, I prayed for a car. Then, for a week straight, I confessed that God was going to give me a car. I became downright obnoxious about it to my wow bros and sis's. I was doing that "confession of belief yields receipt of confession" thing I guess. But at the end of the week, I met a guy, invited him to twig, and when he learned that my car was busted down during "coffee and cookies time", right then and there he gave me the keys to a car. The next day he gave me the title and we drove it home but not after a nice ride in the country! It was way cool! My only explanation was that it had to be God. I prayed and expected, talked about it as if it was a foregone deal, and viola! I think that God must have done a lot of "winking" at us in our young exuberance, even though we may have been following certain "cliche' like doctrines. But, in that case, I was expecting a car, and bada bing! It came.
Old Skool, you also said;
Or worse yet thinking that he appropriates the promises of God by his believing.
And I am thinking; "yes, we do not "appropriate God into acting". I mean, that is egotistical to think that we "control God" ...., it's blasphemy! And yet, since believing, faith, trust (I believe they are all about the same thing), are a requirement, I guess to say that we "appropriate" certain things to come to pass isn't to far fetched of a thing for people to think when we read of the examples admonitions to "believe and not fear". Maybe it was the choice of words in it all. Fortunately for me, I have simply always looked at it as trust and believe and God will bring it to pass. "Trust in the lord with all my heart and lean not to my understand, and He will bring it to pass"-paraphrase of course.
And, this is just discussion, not debate. I just wanted to talk about it, that's all. Oh, here's one that used to kill me. I mean, I did it up until a point when I decided that it was ridiculous. We used to pray;
"God, I just thank you for this job that you are going to get me", or "I just thank you ahead of time" for such and such. And then after I heard somebody say what I'm about to say, I thought; "Yeah, you are right"! When we sit at the dinner table and ask someone to "pass the salt", we don't say,; "Hey Bob, thank you passing me the salt", we simply say; "Would you please pass the salt"? And so, why would we do that to God Almighty? A bit arrogant I would think.
But, to be fair, I think that the initial thinking behind it was for us to pray with an "attitude of expectation" instead of the old "begging prayer" where, "God, if I am worthy, PLEASE help me, if you might possibly find the time, etc etc.
I think maybe it waqs a good idea gone bad, and people simply "cliche'd-ified"it.
My only explanation was that it had to be God. I prayed and expected, talked about it as if it was a foregone deal, and viola! I think that God must have done a lot of "winking" at us in our young exuberance, even though we may have been following certain "cliche' like doctrines. But, in that case, I was expecting a car, and bada bing! It came.
I believe you. I can't say for sure how it happened. It could be God answering your prayer, it could be God working within you to bring to pass a miracle. In matters like these I do all I can to not judge God's workings. I'm glad you got the car though!
Ya know, here's what I think. I think God got left out of it after awhile, and it became people "just working the Principals". I mean, I remember people (including myself-gag me!) saying "Just work the principals!" and God will help you and you will be all right. But for the most part, with me anyway, I always thought of it as God my Heavenly Father wanting to, and willing to help me out according to His Word. Yeah, God got lost in the whole thing (well, He always knew where He was), but he disappeared from us when IN because He just became a "principal for success" instead of who He is: our loving Heavenly Father who wants us to recognize Him as such and lean on Him because we love Him and are thankful to Him and for Him and all that He has done.
I mean, for the most part, I think all of us who became involved did so because we had pure hearts and wanted to know and walk with Him. And then, human nature as it is, and historically has always done, got in the way and things became what they became. Surely we were led, but surely we followed, even though we had holy spirit within us.
I do believe that in order to receive from God, we must first believe.
You have stated this as an "absolute" requirement.
There is no scriptural basis for this.
In fact, if you are an adventurous sort, I'll bet you can find Biblical examples that illustrate there were people who "received from God" DESPITE what they believed.
You have stated this as an "absolute" requirement.
There is no scriptural basis for this.
In fact, if you are an adventurous sort, I'll bet you can find Biblical examples that illustrate there were people who "received from God" DESPITE what they believed.
I never considered this before in this context, but God sends rain on the just and unjust alike. I doubt very many of the unjust believe him, or have believing.
I never considered this before in this context, but God sends rain on the just and unjust alike. I doubt very many of the unjust believe him, or have believing.
Along these same lines-----
Many years ago, it was popular among mainstream Christianity to use the phrase, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Wierwille heard it and went into one of his pseudo, "spiritually angry" tirades about how this was "off The Word". He said "To make the phrase accurate, one would need to say 'God said it, that settles it.' It doesn't mean a hill of beans WHAT you believe!"
Sooooo, one could conceivably extend this logic to positive and negative confession governing the outcome of a situation. Your "believing" would be a moot point.
Many years ago, it was popular among mainstream Christianity to use the phrase, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Wierwille heard it and went into one of his pseudo, "spiritually angry" tirades about how this was "off The Word". He said "To make the phrase accurate, one would need to say 'God said it, that settles it.' It doesn't mean a hill of beans WHAT you believe!"
Sooooo, one could conceivably extend this logic to positive and negative confession governing the outcome of a situation. Your "believing" would be a moot point.
uhh....careful there....you might expose their beliefs as FAIL if you follow the logic a couple of steps away from point of origin...!!!....
it was popular among mainstream Christianity to use the phrase, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Wierwille heard it and went into one of his pseudo, "spiritually angry" tirades about how this was "off The Word". He said "To make the phrase accurate, one would need to say 'God said it, that settles it.' It doesn't mean a hill of beans WHAT you believe!"
Yeah, but don't I remember: "God said it, that settles it, I believe it!"? Did he just twist the little phrase around, or do I remember it wrongly?
Yeah, but don't I remember: "God said it, that settles it, I believe it!"? Did he just twist the little phrase around, or do I remember it wrongly?
That's what the original bumper stickers looked like.
("God said it, I believe it, That settles it")
I think this may have come from a sermon that Billy Graham gave at one of his crusades in the early 1970's.
Not to be one-upped as the World's authority on spiritual matters, Wierwille feigned indignation and insisted his revision was the only accurate one.
Riiiiiiiiight!
edit: VPW taught this in a big public meeting so there's a good chance it's on tape somewhere. There was an incident in my local area (which I've posted before) that precipitated the public teaching. That's why it sticks so tightly to my memory.
Hey. I remember it this way, and I was around him alot. He said, basically, "God said it, that settles it. And whether I believe it or not, it doesn't change a thing!"
That's the way I remember him saying it, and whether he said it that way or not, that's the way it is. If God says it one way, and if we don't "agree" with Him, well then, it's His Way or the highway! I mean, He is GOD, and we are NOT. God and His Word are Supreme, for certainly, our "incredible" wisdom (what a fuggin joke "our wisdom" is), is not supreme to His All Knowing Wisdom. Ya know, we just gotta BOW to the BIG GUY, ya know? I think that because He has the wisdom and power to create a whole "heavens and earth just for us", that
He has more wisdom than us to run things down here...
Hey. I remember it this way, and I was around him alot. He said, basically, "God said it, that settles it. And whether I believe it or not, it doesn't change a thing!"
That's the way I remember him saying it, and whether he said it that way or not, that's the way it is. If God says it one way, and if we don't "agree" with Him, well then, it's His Way or the highway! I mean, He is GOD, and we are NOT. God and His Word are Supreme, for certainly, our "incredible" wisdom (what a fuggin joke "our wisdom" is), is not supreme to His All Knowing Wisdom. Ya know, we just gotta BOW to the BIG GUY, ya know? I think that because He has the wisdom and power to create a whole "heavens and earth just for us", that
He has more wisdom than us to run things down here...
So are you now implying that "believing" is not always required?
Many years ago, it was popular among mainstream Christianity to use the phrase, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Wierwille heard it and went into one of his pseudo, "spiritually angry" tirades about how this was "off The Word". He said "To make the phrase accurate, one would need to say 'God said it, that settles it.' It doesn't mean a hill of beans WHAT you believe!"
Sooooo, one could conceivably extend this logic to positive and negative confession governing the outcome of a situation. Your "believing" would be a moot point.
Thanks for that Waysider. I remember the "God said it/ I believe it/ that settles it" saying from eons ago.
I also remember the tirade ole docvic went into about the middle phrase (I believe it) as well. But - - - until you mentioned it here,
I never connected the "lack of believing" he espoused in that rant, versus what he promoted in the class.
Your memory's pretty good! Docvic did say exactly what you're reminiscing about, and made a big deal about it at the time too. ;)
I've said it before (MANY TIMES ON THIS SITE), and I'll repeat myself once more (if the poster populace will indulge me):
THE "LAW OF BELIEVING" IS THE MOST INSIDIOUS TEACHING OF TWI!
That one teaching ruined more lives than anything else they taught (imo).
The "Law of Believing" as taught by good ole docvic in pfal is a crock-of-$***. Always has been, and always will be.
As much as I disagree with the folks in CES (these days), they did a mighty fine teaching about 15 years ago (in the mid 1990's),
about how God honors His promises. The upshot of the teaching was "God can do what He said He will do."
If I recollect correct the teaching basically said that God had the ability to do what He promised,
and that had NOTHING to do with whether or not our "believing" was involved.
Thanks again Waysider. You just helped me "connect a coupla more dots" in the twi "puzzle". :)
Regardless of the "formula for success" or the "formula for defeat", the Word of God still stands. I for one (and maybe many of you too) did not like at all the many "formulas" for this and that. For instance: "Believing images of victory", The "Four D's Of Doulos Doins" (decision desire details and deliverance), etcetera. But, on this subject of "believing, the word of God still stands. And remember I didn't say I believed in the "believing equals receiving" formula as was taught us. But I do believe that in order to receive from God, we must first believe. Now, Old Skool said this:
Now Old Skool, that is exactly right. God is the one who brings to pass His promises. But if the Bible is to be our standard concerning "God things"-and to some here I guess this wouldn't apply-then there are certain things within it that simply cannot be ignored. For instance the record of Jesus casting the spirit out of the boy who was possessed of an evil spirit in Mark 9:17
Mark 9:17-24 (King James Version)
17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;
18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
20And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief.. .
~~
snip
~~
.. .And so again we see that it was the fear and lack of believing that caused the failure and began to send Peter to the bottom of Davy Jones's locker and that faith or believing is the only alternative for deliverance. Why then would Jesus say these things if they were not true? I mean, these things are in there, why throw them out because we had a bad experience with "formulas" when we were in The Way? Of course once again, this is all based on the premise that God is real, Jesus is real, and that the Bible is actually the Word of God. And I have noticed that many here do not believe that, so, that's fine, folks may believe what they will. But for those who have a belief in God according to the Bible like myself, I simply cannot dismiss the multitude of examples found in the Bible concerning the admonition to notfear, but rather tobelieve
Now. The pre-packaged "formulas"? No, I never liked those. But the basic truth of "The fear of man bringeth a snare, but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe" (Proverbs 29:25) is something I will always be thankful to have learned when I was in The Way. You may say that I "could have learned that in some other church", and to this I have to say that you are absolutely right. But I learned this while in The Way, and it was, and still is very good. I think that on this one, there is a crying Baby out on your lawn or in the snow where some of you threw out the bathwater. Go pick up the Baby and leave the rest behind.
Old Skool,
I'm down with that. Makes sense. It used to kill me when driving with some one, and the driver would yell at the red light; "God! Make that light turn green in the name a Jesus Christ!" And it would then stay red. Or, it might turn green simply because the timing was that it was to turn green. And then the driver would give me sage look like; "see the power I have"?
But I'll tell you this, and I don't really offer much of an explanation, other than to tell you what happened. One time when I was a wow, I prayed for a car. Then, for a week straight, I confessed that God was going to give me a car. I became downright obnoxious about it to my wow bros and sis's. I was doing that "confession of belief yields receipt of confession" thing I guess. But at the end of the week, I met a guy, invited him to twig, and when he learned that my car was busted down during "coffee and cookies time", right then and there he gave me the keys to a car. The next day he gave me the title and we drove it home but not after a nice ride in the country! It was way cool! My only explanation was that it had to be God. I prayed and expected, talked about it as if it was a foregone deal, and viola! I think that God must have done a lot of "winking" at us in our young exuberance, even though we may have been following certain "cliche' like doctrines. But, in that case, I was expecting a car, and bada bing! It came... .
~~
snip
~~
.
A good point was made about TWI sorta eliminating God in the process of things - I see something very similar with the health & wealth/the power of believing fans focusing on any mention of faith, believing, fear, or doubt of someone in such accounts – to the exclusion of God. Like so many things in Scripture it seems that faith begins and ends with God – an interesting circle – God being not only the source of our faith but the object of our faith as well. Faith is indeed a mysterious thing – but if I was pressed to give a simple description I'd say faith is simply what connects us to God.
I talked earlier about one's mental map of life – something we all make in our heads – in an effort to interpret reality and negotiate through it. Basically this mental map of life is nothing more than how we think life works. I think you and I "see" it different on how you received a free car. Your focus is more on what YOU did, YOU confessing what YOU want, YOU prayed, YOU expected, YOU believed God to bring it to pass. Me? I was struck by the generosity of the guy who gave you the car.
I remember this about the TWI mindset – especially in reference to believing. There was something so proud and dishonest about it. I was a WOW too. Funny this vicious circle TWI doctrines get you stuck in. A typical WOW – dirt poor cuz we're supposed to work only so many hours – gotta have time for doing ministry stuff ya know and gotta abundant share from what few bucks I do have. And there's the fine art of begging we learned in the ministry – only it's not begging it's believing. We're too proud to beg – we don't need to beg – we're believing for abundance dontcha know. way-folks need to get honest & humble – the TWI map of how reality works is a joke! The ministry sucked up our time, energy & money and in return gave us a pacifier – a sugar daddy god - a god who was nothing more than a genie-in-the-PFAL book.
As to your comments suggesting folks are rejecting something good because of a bad experience with TWI – throwing out the baby with the bathwater - I just wanted to address this by elaborating on what I said in post # 5. I don't like confrontation and lately have tended to soften things a bit. Anyway – you know the part where I talked about my initial Grease Spot experience of shock & denial and becoming aware of a TWI mindset that lingers on long after leaving. That was for your benefit. I suggest you spend more time in the About the Way forum.
What is considered the baby and what is considered the bathwater is a matter of opinion. Some of what you think is so important and so right may be exactly the opposite for another person. I'm a Christian and happen to believe God, Jesus and the Bible are real also. But you know, that Bible thumping and putting your viewpoint up front like it's some kind of standard or litmus test for who are real Christians - all I can think is you may have left TWI but TWI hasn't left you.
Now, Grease Spot is not a Christian website – but I believe a valuable service is provided here: telling the other side of the story about a supposedly "Christian" organization [TWI] and helping former followers recover from TWI's spiritual, mental, physical, sexual, and financial abuse. The fact that there's so much uncomfortable crap discussed in About the Way forum should give you some idea of how utterly toxic the doctrines & practices of TWI are. Yup - it does have an effect on human beings ya know.. .It's no joy ride to read these threads and hear about the dark side of vp – it totally contradicts the man of god persona that the ministry pushed - but it's the other side of the story - the REAL story. The wolf in a sheep suit story that you've been skipping over in the Bible. It's the truth of how YOU HAVE BEEN DECEIVED - poisoned with toxic doctrines - blind to the fact that you're still wearing PFAL-colored glasses.
Read, read, read those threads – think about the money you gave, the time and energy you spent to support and perpetuate a parasitic system of abuse – the real legacy of vp. There's the charming memory you have of victor paul wierwille - on stage working the crowd - - but then you read the threads by posters who are familiar with the back stage wierwille.There's 2 wierwilles - one is a facade and one is the truth. One is the wolf with the sheep suit on - the other is the predator exposed.
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T-Bone
A good point was made about TWI sorta eliminating God in the process of things - I see something very similar with the health & wealth/the power of believing fans focusing on any mention of faith,
waysider
You just had to ask, didn't you? The "believing against someone" idea comes from page 10 of the AC syllabus ©1971 ************************************************ KEYS TO WALKING BY THE SPIRIT
Oakspear
I see where you're coming from biblically, but I just don't see it in the observable world. I see no difference in general between Christians and non-Christians in any category; no difference between
waysider
No, I don't believe that "believing equals receiving" or that "the law of believing" is validated by any of the scriptures you touched on. Wierwille got a lot of this stuff from "new age" thinkers, such as Norman Vincent Peale, and slapped a few scriptures on it to give it a facade of credibility.
I have to assume, at this point, that you haven't spent much time examining the wealth of information available here at GSC regarding the so-called "law of believing". You might start on the home page if you're open minded enough to buck the lessons of session #7 (ie:"never even allow yourself to consider.")
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OldSkool
No, it is untrue. Believing does not = receiving. There are multiple verses taken out of context to support this ideal but it simply is not true. God fulfills his Word. Jesus Christ is the very active Head of his Body. You and I do not bring to pass God's promises - God does. And Jesus does what God has given him to do. Our job is to have faith, trust, rely on God. It's God's promises and it's up to God to fulfill them. Realizing this lifted an immense burden from my shoulders.
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WordWolf
One of vpw's main "examples" of this "believing equals receiving" was this anonymous
mother (whom I'm convinced never existed) who worried about her child every day when
seeing her child off to school,
and who-according to vpw- killed her child by way of worrying about her child.
I bumped up another thread where we discussed that- I'm convinced MOST parents
worry about their kids, and MOST parents get their kids back unharmed.
I can also state PERSONALLY that NOT having your parents worry is no protection against
disaster striking before they see you next.
========================
A man begins to get a crippling paranoia he will become a car-crash
statistic as he drives, but after a pep-talk, he returns to being a safe driver.
(Ok, this one is possible, but hardly a "law"- it's more how someone
can cause a self-fulfilling prophecy, or follow a pep-talk.)
A pair of men sit in a room and focus their minds on their goal- which then
shows up and makes itself known to them, all as the result of their
sitting in the room and focusing. They become rich philanthropists,
but nobody likes them despite their charitable contributions.
(And yet we can't FIND a record of them- is it possible they
never existed?)
BTW, this story is in TW:LiL and made a big impact on lcm,
as he himself recorded in his own book, "vp and me".
=========================
How was this described in TWLIL?
"There were two men in Van Wert."
"Now, they got together every morning at 5am and believed
together for an hour. Every morning. I don't know what they called it. But they would set their
minds on an agreed project. They never spoke; just got together every morning and both
concentrated on whatever it was, until it came to pass."
"They just got together and put their minds on it every single morning for a couple of weeks,
and lo and behold, one day suddenly some guy who wanted to sell his distillery just called them
up, and asked if they wanted to buy it. They'd never heard of the guy with the distillery before.
He found them. Yep, they made millions, gambled, won. One man set up a foundation for children
from broken homes, also built the YMCA, YWCA and a hospital. It was something."
"I used to watch how they operated. I was a minister there in Van Wert....here were the two meanest
guys you could ever want to meet. Nobody liked them because they were so successful and no one
else could hold a candle to them."
===============
My conclusion was that these men in his congregation in Van Wert
NEVER EXISTED.
They had no names-but he studied them for weeks and weeks.
He supposedly built part of his understanding of the "LAW" of believing on them.
They gave generously to their community-and the community HATED them,
including the Christians.
They were incredibly mean, but gave generously.
He just happened to know these guys got together 5am and sat in silence
in a room. (Did he have a camera in the room?)
These imaginary folk are just there to exist as examples.
vpw's actual degree was in HOMILETICS, so he was trained in INVENTING
a story when a real one wasn't handy.
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T-Bone
After leaving TWI many years ago and eventually making my peace with reality – "believing equals receiving" became one of the many dubious TWI doctrines I got rid of. But believing equals perceiving may be a valid equation worth considering. Beliefs shape how we "see" the world. We've all heard the expression "we see what we want to see". In many ways, so true.
I think it's a real eye-opener for ex-TWI folks to re-examine everything they've absorbed and try looking at the world without the PFAL-colored glasses. I know we all make mental maps of life – and the older I get the more I believe the TWI mindset was really out of touch with reality. I admit PFAL made sense to me at one time. But the simple lessons of life under the tutelage of observation & experience have proven so much of PFAL nonsense.
Consider who sold you this idea of God working through a crooked guy like Balaam – it wouldn't happen to be vp, would it? I remember him teaching that a few times. I don't mean to burst your bubble or anything – but I tend to think when ex-TWI folks talk about how God could work through even a crooked guy like Balaam they still haven't come to terms with the reality of being fooled by a wolf in a sheep suit – a situation that is addressed far more frequently in the Bible [i.e. the many passages that contain warnings about deceivers, spiritual predators, false prophets, teachers, & messiahs]. And it's addressed in a clear, obvious & direct manner – not like the silly inferences & outlandish assertions of vp's teaching style.
There's a lot of things that kinda freaked me out when I first joined Grease Spot and have experienced the shock that hits you right between the eyes, not knowing what to make of it all – then going through denial. What's great about this place is the freedom & support available to re-examine our whole TWI experience, develop critical thinking skills and begin taking ownership of our belief system. Perhaps a more appropriate situation to identify with is the crisis of Paul's conversion. After Jesus knocked him off his high horse – Paul didn't throw out the Old Testament. Instead he worked on getting rid of the Pharisee mindset when reading the Old Testament. For Christians who leave TWI it's a matter of shucking the PFAL mindset. This brings me to my last point.
In PFAL, vp says God would have to change all the laws of the universe to keep from accommodating someone who set the time of their death. That makes the law of believing bigger than God. Think about this gem – "The believer's fear binds the omnipotence of God" from page 19 of "Lifelines: Quotations of Victor Paul Wierwille". Does that even make sense? Bind God's omnipotence? And that's from the same guy who wrote "Are You Limiting God?" .. . uhm, in case you hadn't noticed yet, vp's god and the God mentioned in Genesis 1:1 are not one and the same. Nuff said.
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OldSkool
Wow. Just follow the logic a little further. If I was really, faithfully afraid of the rapture would God have to postpone it until my fear was satiated? Egads.
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George Aar
Despite the fact that the LAW OF BELIEVING has been endorsed by such notable sages as Norman Vincent Peale, Pollyanna, and Jiminy Cricket, it is - in fact - utter Bollchit.
And if you haven't figured that out by now, you really haven't been paying much attention, have you?
I think more noteworthy aphorisms to guide one through life might be: "Life's a bitch and then you die" or possibly "He who dies with the most toys wins" or maybe my Sainted Grandmother's favorite "Life is yust vun coddam ting after anuder".
You're welcome...
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Bramble
The really sad part about the law of believing was how it played out in the group of believers. Everyone would have ups and downs, things that didn't come to pass...but when a faithful believer was struck with a tragedy, say a death or a terrible illness, there was no comfort. It was 'check up from the neck up' 'how did the adversary get in there' reproof and correction. Cold shoulders because 'weakness brings down strenght. Perhaps in TWI(90's) it would be a case for a LOA.
While in other churches, those same issues would have galvanized the church into prayer, perhaps meals organized, volunteer sitters and housekeepers, fund raising for bills--you know, a caring community pulling together to help one of their own. heck, even my Dad's Moose Lodge did that type of stuff!
I was in TWI 20 years, never saw it happen--though we did provide meals and cleaning for leaders.
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ClayJay
Regardless of the "formula for success" or the "formula for defeat", the Word of God still stands. I for one (and maybe many of you too) did not like at all the many "formulas" for this and that. For instance: "Believing images of victory", The "Four D's Of Doulos Doins" (decision desire details and deliverance), etcetera. But, on this subject of "believing, the word of God still stands. And remember I didn't say I believed in the "believing equals receiving" formula as was taught us. But I do believe that in order to receive from God, we must first believe. Now, Old Skool said this:
Now Old Skool, that is exactly right. God is the one who brings to pass His promises. But if the Bible is to be our standard concerning "God things"-and to some here I guess this wouldn't apply-then there are certain things within it that simply cannot be ignored. For instance the record of Jesus casting the spirit out of the boy who was possessed of an evil spirit in Mark 9:17
Mark 9:17-24 (King James Version)
17And one of the multitude answered and said, Master, I have brought unto thee my son, which hath a dumb spirit;
18And wheresoever he taketh him, he teareth him: and he foameth, and gnasheth with his teeth, and pineth away: and I spake to thy disciples that they should cast him out; and they could not.
19He answereth him, and saith, O faithless generation, how long shall I be with you? how long shall I suffer you? bring him unto me.
20And they brought him unto him: and when he saw him, straightway the spirit tare him; and he fell on the ground, and wallowed foaming.
21And he asked his father, How long is it ago since this came unto him? And he said, Of a child.
22And ofttimes it hath cast him into the fire, and into the waters, to destroy him: but if thou canst do any thing, have compassion on us, and help us.
23Jesus said unto him, If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth.
24And straightway the father of the child cried out, and said with tears, Lord, I believe; help thou mine unbelief
Now, this record always kind of cracked me up in a way. I mean, here is this terribly distraught Dad, with a son he no doubt loves dearly, hoping that for once, since he'd heard all of the good things about Jesus, that maybe his son could become normal and at peace and no longer tormented. He'd already had a failed experience with the disciples, yet no deliverance for his beloved son. He explains things to Jesus, and then brings the boy (young boy? Young man who was his son? Dunno) over to Jesus, and immediately the spirit tore into him. And there was his son wallowing on the ground, foaming at the mouth, no doubt making for a very disturbing scene, and what does Jesus do? Did he immediately bend down and calm the boy with a "touch"? Did he immediately tell the father to "dip his son in the Jordan seven times" or some such thing? No, he didn't. So while the kid was kickin' up the ground and chawin' all around, Jesus (I picture him saying it calmly), says to the father; "And so, how long has this been going on"? I mean, this is the part that sorta cracks me up! This terribly distraught Dad, wanting help and no doubt desperate, ends up having Jesus "start a conversation with him" while this spirit is ripping into his son's body violently and terribly.
And after the man gave an emotional history of all this, incredibly, Jesus then says to him; "If thou canst believe, all things are possible to him that believeth".
Whoa! C'mon Jesus! Where's da love?! Dis guyz kid is all over the ground, and you tell him that he has to "believe" first?! Then someone from the crowd yells; "Hey! Let's forget dis guy Jesus! Let's get dat kid to da hospital!" And then no doubt, some woman, a MOM yells; "How dare you Jesus! Here is this man and his son in a terrible plight, and you have the audacity to tell him to "just believe"! Shame on you you mindless cultist!"
But no, Jesus, the healer of broken hearts first makes known the requirement for the boy's deliverance, and the Dad accepts this and responds with "Lord I believe". And the boy is delivered. And man, what joy they both must have experienced! Thank you Jesus for showing us the way! (no pun intended)
And then there is the record of Peter walking on the water and how Jesus said to him as he began to sink. Here's the record from Matthew 14:
29And he said, Come. And when Peter was come down out of the ship, he walked on the water, to go to Jesus.
30But when he saw the wind boisterous, he was afraid; and beginning to sink, he cried, saying, Lord, save me.
31And immediately Jesus stretched forth his hand, and caught him, and said unto him, O thou of little faith, wherefore didst thou doubt?
And so again we see that it was the fear and lack of believing that caused the failure and began to send Peter to the bottom of Davy Jones's locker and that faith or believing is the only alternative for deliverance. Why then would Jesus say these things if they were not true? I mean, these things are in there, why throw them out because we had a bad experience with "formulas" when we were in The Way? Of course once again, this is all based on the premise that God is real, Jesus is real, and that the Bible is actually the Word of God. And I have noticed that many here do not believe that, so, that's fine, folks may believe what they will. But for those who have a belief in God according to the Bible like myself, I simply cannot dismiss the multitude of examples found in the Bible concerning the admonition to not fear, but rather to believe
Now. The pre-packaged "formulas"? No, I never liked those. But the basic truth of "The fear of man bringeth a snare, but whoso putteth his trust in the Lord shall be safe" (Proverbs 29:25) is something I will always be thankful to have learned when I was in The Way. You may say that I "could have learned that in some other church", and to this I have to say that you are absolutely right. But I learned this while in The Way, and it was, and still is very good. I think that on this one, there is a crying Baby out on your lawn or in the snow where some of you threw out the bathwater. Go pick up the Baby and leave the rest behind.
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OldSkool
Believing or fear do not of themselves wield external power according to some law God set in place and even subjected himself to. If you look at the records of Jesus telling them to believe you see that believing, faith, trust is required to receive. God does require faith. Also, when Jesus reproved his disciples for lack of faith it was in the context of bringing miracles and healings to pass. Other times was for not having faith in what God had promised them in his Word.
Faith was required on the receiver and on the one doing the miracle. That is completely different from some sinner sitting around concentrating on something and magically bring it to pass of his own volition according to the law of believing. And also completely different from some saint getting better results from the same method. Or worse yet thinking that he appropriates the promises of God by his believing. Having faith in God is foundational for fellowship. And he explicitly requires it of his people. So I have faith in God to fulfill his Word - but it is God who brings it to pass, not me. On the other hand you also see Jesus doing great miracles. God's power brought these miracles to pass and Jesus had faith in God and in himself to carry out the work God gave him to do by the spirit upon him. That's the best I can clarify my intent in the quote you have.
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ClayJay
Old Skool,
I'm down with that. Makes sense. It used to kill me when driving with some one, and the driver would yell at the red light; "God! Make that light turn green in the name a Jesus Christ!" And it would then stay red. Or, it might turn green simply because the timing was that it was to turn green. And then the driver would give me sage look like; "see the power I have"?
But I'll tell you this, and I don't really offer much of an explanation, other than to tell you what happened. One time when I was a wow, I prayed for a car. Then, for a week straight, I confessed that God was going to give me a car. I became downright obnoxious about it to my wow bros and sis's. I was doing that "confession of belief yields receipt of confession" thing I guess. But at the end of the week, I met a guy, invited him to twig, and when he learned that my car was busted down during "coffee and cookies time", right then and there he gave me the keys to a car. The next day he gave me the title and we drove it home but not after a nice ride in the country! It was way cool! My only explanation was that it had to be God. I prayed and expected, talked about it as if it was a foregone deal, and viola! I think that God must have done a lot of "winking" at us in our young exuberance, even though we may have been following certain "cliche' like doctrines. But, in that case, I was expecting a car, and bada bing! It came.
Old Skool, you also said;
And I am thinking; "yes, we do not "appropriate God into acting". I mean, that is egotistical to think that we "control God" ...., it's blasphemy! And yet, since believing, faith, trust (I believe they are all about the same thing), are a requirement, I guess to say that we "appropriate" certain things to come to pass isn't to far fetched of a thing for people to think when we read of the examples admonitions to "believe and not fear". Maybe it was the choice of words in it all. Fortunately for me, I have simply always looked at it as trust and believe and God will bring it to pass. "Trust in the lord with all my heart and lean not to my understand, and He will bring it to pass"-paraphrase of course.
And, this is just discussion, not debate. I just wanted to talk about it, that's all. Oh, here's one that used to kill me. I mean, I did it up until a point when I decided that it was ridiculous. We used to pray;
"God, I just thank you for this job that you are going to get me", or "I just thank you ahead of time" for such and such. And then after I heard somebody say what I'm about to say, I thought; "Yeah, you are right"! When we sit at the dinner table and ask someone to "pass the salt", we don't say,; "Hey Bob, thank you passing me the salt", we simply say; "Would you please pass the salt"? And so, why would we do that to God Almighty? A bit arrogant I would think.
But, to be fair, I think that the initial thinking behind it was for us to pray with an "attitude of expectation" instead of the old "begging prayer" where, "God, if I am worthy, PLEASE help me, if you might possibly find the time, etc etc.
I think maybe it waqs a good idea gone bad, and people simply "cliche'd-ified"it.
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OldSkool
I believe you. I can't say for sure how it happened. It could be God answering your prayer, it could be God working within you to bring to pass a miracle. In matters like these I do all I can to not judge God's workings. I'm glad you got the car though!
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ClayJay
Ya know, here's what I think. I think God got left out of it after awhile, and it became people "just working the Principals". I mean, I remember people (including myself-gag me!) saying "Just work the principals!" and God will help you and you will be all right. But for the most part, with me anyway, I always thought of it as God my Heavenly Father wanting to, and willing to help me out according to His Word. Yeah, God got lost in the whole thing (well, He always knew where He was), but he disappeared from us when IN because He just became a "principal for success" instead of who He is: our loving Heavenly Father who wants us to recognize Him as such and lean on Him because we love Him and are thankful to Him and for Him and all that He has done.
I mean, for the most part, I think all of us who became involved did so because we had pure hearts and wanted to know and walk with Him. And then, human nature as it is, and historically has always done, got in the way and things became what they became. Surely we were led, but surely we followed, even though we had holy spirit within us.
And, thanks Old Skool!
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OldSkool
Your welcome. Thank you, I enjoyed reading what you posted.
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waysider
You have stated this as an "absolute" requirement.
There is no scriptural basis for this.
In fact, if you are an adventurous sort, I'll bet you can find Biblical examples that illustrate there were people who "received from God" DESPITE what they believed.
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OldSkool
I never considered this before in this context, but God sends rain on the just and unjust alike. I doubt very many of the unjust believe him, or have believing.
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waysider
Along these same lines-----
Many years ago, it was popular among mainstream Christianity to use the phrase, "God said it, I believe it, that settles it." Wierwille heard it and went into one of his pseudo, "spiritually angry" tirades about how this was "off The Word". He said "To make the phrase accurate, one would need to say 'God said it, that settles it.' It doesn't mean a hill of beans WHAT you believe!"
Sooooo, one could conceivably extend this logic to positive and negative confession governing the outcome of a situation. Your "believing" would be a moot point.
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OldSkool
uhh....careful there....you might expose their beliefs as FAIL if you follow the logic a couple of steps away from point of origin...!!!....
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Twinky
Yeah, but don't I remember: "God said it, that settles it, I believe it!"? Did he just twist the little phrase around, or do I remember it wrongly?
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waysider
That's what the original bumper stickers looked like.
("God said it, I believe it, That settles it")
I think this may have come from a sermon that Billy Graham gave at one of his crusades in the early 1970's.
Not to be one-upped as the World's authority on spiritual matters, Wierwille feigned indignation and insisted his revision was the only accurate one.
Riiiiiiiiight!
edit: VPW taught this in a big public meeting so there's a good chance it's on tape somewhere. There was an incident in my local area (which I've posted before) that precipitated the public teaching. That's why it sticks so tightly to my memory.
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ClayJay
Hey. I remember it this way, and I was around him alot. He said, basically, "God said it, that settles it. And whether I believe it or not, it doesn't change a thing!"
That's the way I remember him saying it, and whether he said it that way or not, that's the way it is. If God says it one way, and if we don't "agree" with Him, well then, it's His Way or the highway! I mean, He is GOD, and we are NOT. God and His Word are Supreme, for certainly, our "incredible" wisdom (what a fuggin joke "our wisdom" is), is not supreme to His All Knowing Wisdom. Ya know, we just gotta BOW to the BIG GUY, ya know? I think that because He has the wisdom and power to create a whole "heavens and earth just for us", that
He has more wisdom than us to run things down here...
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waysider
So are you now implying that "believing" is not always required?
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krys
I remember hearing that believing was required of all except the insane, those to young to know enough to believe and the dead.
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dmiller
Thanks for that Waysider. I remember the "God said it/ I believe it/ that settles it" saying from eons ago.
I also remember the tirade ole docvic went into about the middle phrase (I believe it) as well. But - - - until you mentioned it here,
I never connected the "lack of believing" he espoused in that rant, versus what he promoted in the class.
Your memory's pretty good! Docvic did say exactly what you're reminiscing about, and made a big deal about it at the time too. ;)
I've said it before (MANY TIMES ON THIS SITE), and I'll repeat myself once more (if the poster populace will indulge me):
THE "LAW OF BELIEVING" IS THE MOST INSIDIOUS TEACHING OF TWI!
That one teaching ruined more lives than anything else they taught (imo).
The "Law of Believing" as taught by good ole docvic in pfal is a crock-of-$***. Always has been, and always will be.
As much as I disagree with the folks in CES (these days), they did a mighty fine teaching about 15 years ago (in the mid 1990's),
about how God honors His promises. The upshot of the teaching was "God can do what He said He will do."
If I recollect correct the teaching basically said that God had the ability to do what He promised,
and that had NOTHING to do with whether or not our "believing" was involved.
Thanks again Waysider. You just helped me "connect a coupla more dots" in the twi "puzzle". :)
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T-Bone
A good point was made about TWI sorta eliminating God in the process of things - I see something very similar with the health & wealth/the power of believing fans focusing on any mention of faith, believing, fear, or doubt of someone in such accounts – to the exclusion of God. Like so many things in Scripture it seems that faith begins and ends with God – an interesting circle – God being not only the source of our faith but the object of our faith as well. Faith is indeed a mysterious thing – but if I was pressed to give a simple description I'd say faith is simply what connects us to God.
I talked earlier about one's mental map of life – something we all make in our heads – in an effort to interpret reality and negotiate through it. Basically this mental map of life is nothing more than how we think life works. I think you and I "see" it different on how you received a free car. Your focus is more on what YOU did, YOU confessing what YOU want, YOU prayed, YOU expected, YOU believed God to bring it to pass. Me? I was struck by the generosity of the guy who gave you the car.
I remember this about the TWI mindset – especially in reference to believing. There was something so proud and dishonest about it. I was a WOW too. Funny this vicious circle TWI doctrines get you stuck in. A typical WOW – dirt poor cuz we're supposed to work only so many hours – gotta have time for doing ministry stuff ya know and gotta abundant share from what few bucks I do have. And there's the fine art of begging we learned in the ministry – only it's not begging it's believing. We're too proud to beg – we don't need to beg – we're believing for abundance dontcha know. way-folks need to get honest & humble – the TWI map of how reality works is a joke! The ministry sucked up our time, energy & money and in return gave us a pacifier – a sugar daddy god - a god who was nothing more than a genie-in-the-PFAL book.
As to your comments suggesting folks are rejecting something good because of a bad experience with TWI – throwing out the baby with the bathwater - I just wanted to address this by elaborating on what I said in post # 5. I don't like confrontation and lately have tended to soften things a bit. Anyway – you know the part where I talked about my initial Grease Spot experience of shock & denial and becoming aware of a TWI mindset that lingers on long after leaving. That was for your benefit. I suggest you spend more time in the About the Way forum.
What is considered the baby and what is considered the bathwater is a matter of opinion. Some of what you think is so important and so right may be exactly the opposite for another person. I'm a Christian and happen to believe God, Jesus and the Bible are real also. But you know, that Bible thumping and putting your viewpoint up front like it's some kind of standard or litmus test for who are real Christians - all I can think is you may have left TWI but TWI hasn't left you.
Now, Grease Spot is not a Christian website – but I believe a valuable service is provided here: telling the other side of the story about a supposedly "Christian" organization [TWI] and helping former followers recover from TWI's spiritual, mental, physical, sexual, and financial abuse. The fact that there's so much uncomfortable crap discussed in About the Way forum should give you some idea of how utterly toxic the doctrines & practices of TWI are. Yup - it does have an effect on human beings ya know.. .It's no joy ride to read these threads and hear about the dark side of vp – it totally contradicts the man of god persona that the ministry pushed - but it's the other side of the story - the REAL story. The wolf in a sheep suit story that you've been skipping over in the Bible. It's the truth of how YOU HAVE BEEN DECEIVED - poisoned with toxic doctrines - blind to the fact that you're still wearing PFAL-colored glasses.
Read, read, read those threads – think about the money you gave, the time and energy you spent to support and perpetuate a parasitic system of abuse – the real legacy of vp. There's the charming memory you have of victor paul wierwille - on stage working the crowd - - but then you read the threads by posters who are familiar with the back stage wierwille.There's 2 wierwilles - one is a facade and one is the truth. One is the wolf with the sheep suit on - the other is the predator exposed.
Edited by T-BoneLink to comment
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