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I googled autobibliophile just now and while it doesn't appear to be a brand new original word on you part, there still doesn't seem to be much to go on.
NOT MUCH TO GO ON IMO, PERHAPS WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEFINE A NEW PHRASE! :D
It seems we need an even more original word. "Bibliophile" refers to a lover of books. It doesn't quite have the sting we're looking for... Oh I found one!
Main Entry: bib·li·ol·a·ter Pronunciation: \ˌbi-blē-ˈä-lə-tər\Function: noun Date: 1847 1: one having excessive reverence for the letter of the Bible
which would then be extended to an autobibliolater
Well, just one last comment about what Bob said: "Though probably better in another thread, I could show the value of the Syriac Interlinear and certainly some of the other things that we worked on. It is a more complicated story about TWI than VP governed every jot and tittle that went out of there. "
The VPW-driven research, such as the collaterals and larger works like Jesus Christ our Passover, etc. carried his interpretation of scriptures and in my view came under the umbrella of trying to make scriptures "fit like a hand in a glove" (inerrancy) and was in a different category than the academic study textbooks, such as the Aramaic concordance and interlinear, which are used, I understand, even by people outside TWI who are interested in studying the Syriac N.T. That is the text that VPW was usually referring to when he said Aramaic. Sometimes, as Bob may well explain in another thread, older text fragments in Aramaic might have been quoted as more "accurate" readings of some verses, here and there, but for the most part when we prepared Corps night notes, we referred to the Syriac and those guys on the team who were trained in Greek referred to the Stephens text and other texts which notate some other alternate readings as well.
As for bibliolatry, yes some people I think became so obsessed with the authority of the written words that they forgot their spiritual life and qualified the Bible as their only source for knowing God. That would have been the reasonable outcome based on the rhetoric in PFAL.
But if I might chide my fellow greasespotters a little bit, let's try and avoid using broad strokes when painting a picture of what all of us in research were like. An important part of any Bible research, seems to me, is to identify what the words in the Bible are, thus the need to "nit pick" each verse, I guess. After all, isn't the Bible where Christians and Jews get their ideas about God and Jesus from in the first place? Even the early church fathers did, too, right?
It seems we need an even more original word. "Bibliophile" refers to a lover of books. It doesn't quite have the sting we're looking for... Oh I found one!
which would then be extended to an autobibliolater
Not to get of on a doctrinal tangent. But, it's an appropriate name since they value God's Word more than God, who authored it, or Jesus Christ who is the Word made flesh. They have that verse mixed up where it says God magnified his word above his name. First, they take it out of context at the expense of the other gods mentioned where the Psalmist says "before the gods will I sing praises to you" - point is God's name is higher than the "gods." Second, in the immediate context God' faithfulness and power are emphasized. Third, and most important, in the remote Context God has exalted Jesus above every name, etc.
The point of my ramblings is God never exalted his word above himself. He exalted it above all his name - there is a big difference.
Penworks - Just to clarify... I was saying that the signature characteristic of twi in general was that of idolizing more than the study of the bible and went on to idolizing the students and teachers of the bible themselves. I was in no way singling out those in the research dept.
Not to get of on a doctrinal tangent. But, it's an appropriate name since they value God's Word more than God, who authored it, or Jesus Christ who is the Word made flesh. They have that verse mixed up where it says God magnified his word above his name. First, they take it out of context at the expense of the other gods mentioned where the Psalmist says "before the gods will I sing praises to you" - point is God's name is higher than the "gods." Second, in the immediate context God' faithfulness and power are emphasized. Third, and most important, in the remote Context God has exalted Jesus above every name, etc.
The point of my ramblings is God never exalted his word above himself. He exalted it above all his name - there is a big difference.
Bingo!
I would go even further and say that this verse relates to a very specific promise God made in 2 Samuel 7. Not to get all doctrinal either, but not all Psalms can be related back to something specific, but this one can. David's line would carry the seed. It was a greater revelation by God than all that had come before That is why it is exalted.
In TWI it was taken out of context and used to manipulate. We basically built a theology around it.
I think bible idolatry is a pretty apt description. As Sunesis pointed out. . . . the Holy Spirit enlightens one to the truth of Jesus Christ as Messiah . . . some people don't have whole bibles or share one tattered book between several churches. These people understand more about Christ than many Christians with a whole library. Certainly more than we did with the absent Christ.
Penworks - Just to clarify... I was saying that the signature characteristic of twi in general was that of idolizing more than the study of the bible and went on to idolizing the students and teachers of the bible themselves. I was in no way singling out those in the research dept.
In the Aviation Industry, you need engineers to design cutting edge aircraft, but ultimately it comes down to the test pilots. They're the ones that go out and see if all that research pays off. Testing the principles the new aircraft was founded on and reporting back where they feel the tail-rudder is sticking or the engine doesn't feel smooth during such and such a maneuver. How well the test flight goes allows the engineers to know whether their research was correct and where corrections are required. Spiritual Geeks and Jocks, working together for the family. Trying to secure a smoother ride for the kids.
Point is, we need both the geeks and the freaks IRL. and if you can do both you're more balanced, but perhaps not really as good as you could be at only one. It could also come down to simple desire. Your just better, let's say, at one than the other so you would rather do that. Trying to do it all on your own, like penworks numbered points above, can be quite trying, as you end up so buried in the minutae of the steps you're taking that you have no time to enjoy the life God Gave you. And if God is all about making your life miserable,... Why worship Him?
I see from reading the forums that many of you gave up or just said the hell with it. It's just what I see. Some reflected on it all and decided to throw out the broken parts and try to keep what they thought good, and there are a variety of other positions. Not everything in the Way was broken, not everything was damaged maybe, But enough of it was to do all this! The fruit is basically the end-product of a Tree adn your lives are the fruit of the Way, a tree that was infected and apparently still is. That's how I see it.
I would say that a few of us gave up the approach; set aside the premises laid out by TWI. Perhaps a different spin on the IICOR 2:10 about not being held captive by someone else's interpretation of what being obedient to Christ looks like, or what Jesus looks like, or whether to refer to him as Jesus or the Christ, and whether not capitalizing pronouns that refer to him will land me in hell either right when I die or at some point where I'm raised again to judgment (like why bother?).
I've learned I can be moral and good without holding it to the WWJD standard, or some other person's idea of what is righteous and holy. Since I've done that, I've become a helluva lot nicer to people and cut them a bunch of slack for being - human. What a relief!
It has always amazed me how much certain historical women and men of Christianity did with the little that they knew from the book. Certainly my sisters are not reading the stuff that I do (they were all...and one still is in TWI - all four of them). But damn if they don't "get it" just as much as I do (OK, one is still a bit shellshocked...). I love their simplicity whereas I am such a geek that I need to see things a little differently.
I'm met at every turn in my work by new and wonderful things and my sister Susi is just as excited by what she sees. I don't look down my nose at her and she doesn't lift me up on some supercillious (maybe that's surrealistic...for all you Jefferson Airplane fans) pillow. I'd shoot her.
But on the other hand there's the "jots and tittles" aspect of Jesus' approach. His own pharisaic training aside (just read John 1: 24-26), he wasn't someone who was interested in looking up people's butts to see what they were doing wrong...yet he was still interested in the jots and tittles. I'm lovin' that. I'm into that. To me they must be important.
yet he was still interested in the jots and tittles. I'm lovin' that. I'm into that. To me they must be important.
I believe as you that the jot and tittles are very important. However, one of the areas where TWI errs is by placing such an overwhelming emphasis on the jot and tittles, and forgetting that they are still prone to sin as anyone else. They forget the grace and mercy that we all need.
So to take a lesson from Jesus - "Go and learn what this means - I desire mercy and not sacrifice.: For I came not to call the righteous but sinners."
This was from a man who was steeped in jot and tittles, yet had such amazing love, grace, and mercy towards the sinners he came to call to salvation. Learning from this example has freed me from the bondage that TWI placed me under and allowed me to enjoy the details without thinking that all of life was hidden in their intricacies, and if I didn't master them I would take the thrashing of an eternity at the hands of an angry Lord come judgment day.
"Study to show yourself approved------workmen------rightly dividing-----"
My, how we lauded the importance of that verse to the sky, never stopping to consider that what TWI was teaching us about that verse was, in fact, mistranslated, misinterpreted and misrepresented. Yeah, we scoffed at other denominations who were doing "good works". We were too spiritual to do "good works" because salvation comes by grace and not by "works". And, the whole time we were oblivious to the reality that we were actually obsessed with "working" the word. How did we show ourselves approved before God? Well, we "worked", of course. I'd call it ironic, but, I think that may be too soft a description.
Has anyone ever stopped to consider the phrase "working the word"?
Think of someone "working a room."
Working it... The phrase doesn't inspire studying anything. I think more about moving about looking for an opportunity and a chance to benefit or profit. (Let's not open the can of worms that "profit" holds for those in twi.)
But if I might chide my fellow greasespotters a little bit, let's try and avoid using broad strokes when painting a picture of what all of us in research were like.
Nerds?
I jest, I jest. And yes, that is mr. pot meet mrs. kettle.
I believe as you that the jot and tittles are very important. However, one of the areas where TWI errs is by placing such an overwhelming emphasis on the jot and tittles, and forgetting that they are still prone to sin as anyone else. They forget the grace and mercy that we all need.
So to take a lesson from Jesus - "Go and learn what this means - I desire mercy and not sacrifice.: For I came not to call the righteous but sinners."
This was from a man who was steeped in jot and tittles, yet had such amazing love, grace, and mercy towards the sinners he came to call to salvation. Learning from this example has freed me from the bondage that TWI placed me under and allowed me to enjoy the details without thinking that all of life was hidden in their intricacies, and if I didn't master them I would take the thrashing of an eternity at the hands of an angry Lord come judgment day.
Hey, just learned how to use the "quote" thingy.
Old,
I'll agree with the "forgetting that they (the infamous "they") are still prone to sin" and the "they (again the infamous "other guys") forget the grace adn mercy" business. Everyone does. It won't end. Until the "really hot water" (aka - lake of fire) happens for real we (the not so famous inward finger) will be saddled with deceit, etc. ("For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice." - lovely).
I still think that "life (is) was hidden in their intracacies" (i.e. - the jots and tittles), but I don't think I'll ever "master them" and I certainly won't take a thrashing. I hate the Jonathan Edwards concept of "sinners in the hands of an angry God" business; you should too (and it appears that you do!). I also think that life is in the hidden intracacies of nature and I won't be put under the thumb of any "leader" again (check out the term "leader" in the Christian Scriptures and see what contexts they all fall under...usually negative ("blind leaders of the blind").
I like that we look to Jesus (and Paul for that matter) as our examples. Their records, if we care to believe what is written about them, show the compassion, the love and the tenacity at the same time. Let's remember that those two boys called the religious bastards by their real names; "whited sepulchres", "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds", etc. (lovely!). Yet the "knit together in love" business is in there are well.
"Study to show yourself approved------workmen------rightly dividing-----"
My, how we lauded the importance of that verse to the sky, never stopping to consider that what TWI was teaching us about that verse was, in fact, mistranslated, misinterpreted and misrepresented. Yeah, we scoffed at other denominations who were doing "good works". We were too spiritual to do "good works" because salvation comes by grace and not by "works". And, the whole time we were oblivious to the reality that we were actually obsessed with "working" the word. How did we show ourselves approved before God? Well, we "worked", of course. I'd call it ironic, but, I think that may be too soft a description.
Way,
I always thought it was "study to show yourself a prune"... There were so many prunes...
But, the word "study" is not really in the text (as you rightfully point out). I love how Darby "worked" that one, "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." Not that VP missed this one in his "Study, Be Diligent" chapter (was that the Blue book...way too long ago...). The "do your best" thing is great. It assumes you already did your homework and were actually out there living and helping people (the infamous good works). And that was where the emphasis was to have been, eh?
I still think that "life (is) was hidden in their intracacies" (i.e. - the jots and tittles), but I don't think I'll ever "master them" and I certainly won't take a thrashing. I hate the Jonathan Edwards concept of "sinners in the hands of an angry God" business; you should too (and it appears that you do!). I also think that life is in the hidden intracacies of nature and I won't be put under the thumb of any "leader" again (check out the term "leader" in the Christian Scriptures and see what contexts they all fall under...usually negative ("blind leaders of the blind").
For me, I don't like some of the imagery J Edwards uses, but that is a powerful and awesome sermon. Many people came to the cross by way his sermons. . . . they repented and knew the need for the Savior. There are times when I believe God should scare the heck out of people.
Jonathan Edwards is often recognized as America's greatest scholar. He was a dynamic preacher. . . . . and hate seems a mighty strong word for that sermon. He got kicked out of his own church for not letting non Christians take communion, it is not a feast, but a memorial. There is a great deal to be gleaned from reading the Puritans IMO.
Kind of like reading the OT though :)
I also like and can see that our lives really are hid in Christ.
For me, I don't like some of the imagery J Edwards uses, but that is a powerful and awesome sermon. Many people came to the cross by way his sermons. . . . they repented and knew the need for the Savior. There are times when I believe God should scare the heck out of people.
Jonathan Edwards is often recognized as America's greatest scholar. He was a dynamic preacher. . . . . and hate seems a mighty strong word for that sermon. He got kicked out of his own church for not letting non Christians take communion, it is not a feast, but a memorial. There is a great deal to be gleaned from reading the Puritans IMO.
Kind of like reading the OT though :)
I also like and can see that our lives really are hid in Christ.
Off topic and just my opinion
Yeah, Edwards is a bit much for me. There's too much Calvinism, too much brimstone. I'll leave that for the unbelievers at the telos. He was (and is) considered an intellect of the highest order, but if someone cannot acknowledge "free will" (and for that matter open theism (God can change His mind) I cannot abide. Love (actually)"hid with Christ in God".
And it's the "goodness (gentleness?) of God" that brings anyone to a "change of mind".
dear spec or spectrum etc i was just hugging you for your story because it touched my heart
Thanks EX!
I was just reading it again and had to laugh at myself! I said I was about 16 when my younger brother joined the army. He is 3 years younger, so does that mean he joined at the age of 13? :unsure:
Oh well - I could always call and ask him - then I would know how old I "really was" at the time.
But all in all, I know it was the "heart" contained in the story which "touched you".
Thanks for that LINK, Penworks! I read all the posts in it (from 2008). Many good points are made pertinent to this TOPIC you started, and it contains many "first hand accounts" by those who did "research" while at TWI.
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penworks
Hold everything. Some people can believe that they are not sure they believe in God. That is another topic that belongs in a different thread, IMO. I appreciate these lessons in mathmatics and lo
Sunesis
With all due respect Spectrum, who cares when this thread will end? Most people here have enjoyed reading the posts and having their say. Sure, threads meander here, there, everywhere. Its the Body
penworks
I've been thinking about these sorts of things a long time, myself. One thing I found is that there are other ways to value the Bible besides thinkig it is has to be either "God's Word" (thereby it h
JeffSjo
I like the usage of that one Dooj. :D
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I googled autobibliophile just now and while it doesn't appear to be a brand new original word on you part, there still doesn't seem to be much to go on.
NOT MUCH TO GO ON IMO, PERHAPS WE HAVE THE OPPORTUNITY TO DEFINE A NEW PHRASE! :D
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doojable
It seems we need an even more original word. "Bibliophile" refers to a lover of books. It doesn't quite have the sting we're looking for... Oh I found one!
A Bibliolater
which would then be extended to an autobibliolater
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penworks
Well, just one last comment about what Bob said: "Though probably better in another thread, I could show the value of the Syriac Interlinear and certainly some of the other things that we worked on. It is a more complicated story about TWI than VP governed every jot and tittle that went out of there. "
The VPW-driven research, such as the collaterals and larger works like Jesus Christ our Passover, etc. carried his interpretation of scriptures and in my view came under the umbrella of trying to make scriptures "fit like a hand in a glove" (inerrancy) and was in a different category than the academic study textbooks, such as the Aramaic concordance and interlinear, which are used, I understand, even by people outside TWI who are interested in studying the Syriac N.T. That is the text that VPW was usually referring to when he said Aramaic. Sometimes, as Bob may well explain in another thread, older text fragments in Aramaic might have been quoted as more "accurate" readings of some verses, here and there, but for the most part when we prepared Corps night notes, we referred to the Syriac and those guys on the team who were trained in Greek referred to the Stephens text and other texts which notate some other alternate readings as well.
As for bibliolatry, yes some people I think became so obsessed with the authority of the written words that they forgot their spiritual life and qualified the Bible as their only source for knowing God. That would have been the reasonable outcome based on the rhetoric in PFAL.
But if I might chide my fellow greasespotters a little bit, let's try and avoid using broad strokes when painting a picture of what all of us in research were like. An important part of any Bible research, seems to me, is to identify what the words in the Bible are, thus the need to "nit pick" each verse, I guess. After all, isn't the Bible where Christians and Jews get their ideas about God and Jesus from in the first place? Even the early church fathers did, too, right?
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OldSkool
Not to get of on a doctrinal tangent. But, it's an appropriate name since they value God's Word more than God, who authored it, or Jesus Christ who is the Word made flesh. They have that verse mixed up where it says God magnified his word above his name. First, they take it out of context at the expense of the other gods mentioned where the Psalmist says "before the gods will I sing praises to you" - point is God's name is higher than the "gods." Second, in the immediate context God' faithfulness and power are emphasized. Third, and most important, in the remote Context God has exalted Jesus above every name, etc.
The point of my ramblings is God never exalted his word above himself. He exalted it above all his name - there is a big difference.
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doojable
Penworks - Just to clarify... I was saying that the signature characteristic of twi in general was that of idolizing more than the study of the bible and went on to idolizing the students and teachers of the bible themselves. I was in no way singling out those in the research dept.
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geisha779
Bingo!
I would go even further and say that this verse relates to a very specific promise God made in 2 Samuel 7. Not to get all doctrinal either, but not all Psalms can be related back to something specific, but this one can. David's line would carry the seed. It was a greater revelation by God than all that had come before That is why it is exalted.
In TWI it was taken out of context and used to manipulate. We basically built a theology around it.
I think bible idolatry is a pretty apt description. As Sunesis pointed out. . . . the Holy Spirit enlightens one to the truth of Jesus Christ as Messiah . . . some people don't have whole bibles or share one tattered book between several churches. These people understand more about Christ than many Christians with a whole library. Certainly more than we did with the absent Christ.
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penworks
Thanks, I appreciate that...
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Gen-2
In the Aviation Industry, you need engineers to design cutting edge aircraft, but ultimately it comes down to the test pilots. They're the ones that go out and see if all that research pays off. Testing the principles the new aircraft was founded on and reporting back where they feel the tail-rudder is sticking or the engine doesn't feel smooth during such and such a maneuver. How well the test flight goes allows the engineers to know whether their research was correct and where corrections are required. Spiritual Geeks and Jocks, working together for the family. Trying to secure a smoother ride for the kids.
Point is, we need both the geeks and the freaks IRL. and if you can do both you're more balanced, but perhaps not really as good as you could be at only one. It could also come down to simple desire. Your just better, let's say, at one than the other so you would rather do that. Trying to do it all on your own, like penworks numbered points above, can be quite trying, as you end up so buried in the minutae of the steps you're taking that you have no time to enjoy the life God Gave you. And if God is all about making your life miserable,... Why worship Him?
I see from reading the forums that many of you gave up or just said the hell with it. It's just what I see. Some reflected on it all and decided to throw out the broken parts and try to keep what they thought good, and there are a variety of other positions. Not everything in the Way was broken, not everything was damaged maybe, But enough of it was to do all this! The fruit is basically the end-product of a Tree adn your lives are the fruit of the Way, a tree that was infected and apparently still is. That's how I see it.
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Tzaia
I would say that a few of us gave up the approach; set aside the premises laid out by TWI. Perhaps a different spin on the IICOR 2:10 about not being held captive by someone else's interpretation of what being obedient to Christ looks like, or what Jesus looks like, or whether to refer to him as Jesus or the Christ, and whether not capitalizing pronouns that refer to him will land me in hell either right when I die or at some point where I'm raised again to judgment (like why bother?).
I've learned I can be moral and good without holding it to the WWJD standard, or some other person's idea of what is righteous and holy. Since I've done that, I've become a helluva lot nicer to people and cut them a bunch of slack for being - human. What a relief!
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roberterasmus
It has always amazed me how much certain historical women and men of Christianity did with the little that they knew from the book. Certainly my sisters are not reading the stuff that I do (they were all...and one still is in TWI - all four of them). But damn if they don't "get it" just as much as I do (OK, one is still a bit shellshocked...). I love their simplicity whereas I am such a geek that I need to see things a little differently.
I'm met at every turn in my work by new and wonderful things and my sister Susi is just as excited by what she sees. I don't look down my nose at her and she doesn't lift me up on some supercillious (maybe that's surrealistic...for all you Jefferson Airplane fans) pillow. I'd shoot her.
But on the other hand there's the "jots and tittles" aspect of Jesus' approach. His own pharisaic training aside (just read John 1: 24-26), he wasn't someone who was interested in looking up people's butts to see what they were doing wrong...yet he was still interested in the jots and tittles. I'm lovin' that. I'm into that. To me they must be important.
RE
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OldSkool
I believe as you that the jot and tittles are very important. However, one of the areas where TWI errs is by placing such an overwhelming emphasis on the jot and tittles, and forgetting that they are still prone to sin as anyone else. They forget the grace and mercy that we all need.
So to take a lesson from Jesus - "Go and learn what this means - I desire mercy and not sacrifice.: For I came not to call the righteous but sinners."
This was from a man who was steeped in jot and tittles, yet had such amazing love, grace, and mercy towards the sinners he came to call to salvation. Learning from this example has freed me from the bondage that TWI placed me under and allowed me to enjoy the details without thinking that all of life was hidden in their intricacies, and if I didn't master them I would take the thrashing of an eternity at the hands of an angry Lord come judgment day.
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waysider
"Study to show yourself approved------workmen------rightly dividing-----"
My, how we lauded the importance of that verse to the sky, never stopping to consider that what TWI was teaching us about that verse was, in fact, mistranslated, misinterpreted and misrepresented. Yeah, we scoffed at other denominations who were doing "good works". We were too spiritual to do "good works" because salvation comes by grace and not by "works". And, the whole time we were oblivious to the reality that we were actually obsessed with "working" the word. How did we show ourselves approved before God? Well, we "worked", of course. I'd call it ironic, but, I think that may be too soft a description.
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doojable
Has anyone ever stopped to consider the phrase "working the word"?
Think of someone "working a room."
Working it... The phrase doesn't inspire studying anything. I think more about moving about looking for an opportunity and a chance to benefit or profit. (Let's not open the can of worms that "profit" holds for those in twi.)
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chockfull
Nerds?
I jest, I jest. And yes, that is mr. pot meet mrs. kettle.
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roberterasmus
Hey, just learned how to use the "quote" thingy.
Old,
I'll agree with the "forgetting that they (the infamous "they") are still prone to sin" and the "they (again the infamous "other guys") forget the grace adn mercy" business. Everyone does. It won't end. Until the "really hot water" (aka - lake of fire) happens for real we (the not so famous inward finger) will be saddled with deceit, etc. ("For where jealousy and selfish ambition exist, there will be disorder and every vile practice." - lovely).
I still think that "life (is) was hidden in their intracacies" (i.e. - the jots and tittles), but I don't think I'll ever "master them" and I certainly won't take a thrashing. I hate the Jonathan Edwards concept of "sinners in the hands of an angry God" business; you should too (and it appears that you do!). I also think that life is in the hidden intracacies of nature and I won't be put under the thumb of any "leader" again (check out the term "leader" in the Christian Scriptures and see what contexts they all fall under...usually negative ("blind leaders of the blind").
I like that we look to Jesus (and Paul for that matter) as our examples. Their records, if we care to believe what is written about them, show the compassion, the love and the tenacity at the same time. Let's remember that those two boys called the religious bastards by their real names; "whited sepulchres", "Perverse disputings of men of corrupt minds", etc. (lovely!). Yet the "knit together in love" business is in there are well.
RE
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roberterasmus
Way,
I always thought it was "study to show yourself a prune"... There were so many prunes...
But, the word "study" is not really in the text (as you rightfully point out). I love how Darby "worked" that one, "Do your best to present yourself to God as one approved, a worker who has no need to be ashamed, rightly handling the word of truth." Not that VP missed this one in his "Study, Be Diligent" chapter (was that the Blue book...way too long ago...). The "do your best" thing is great. It assumes you already did your homework and were actually out there living and helping people (the infamous good works). And that was where the emphasis was to have been, eh?
RE
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OldSkool
Great posts, roberterasmus.
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geisha779
For me, I don't like some of the imagery J Edwards uses, but that is a powerful and awesome sermon. Many people came to the cross by way his sermons. . . . they repented and knew the need for the Savior. There are times when I believe God should scare the heck out of people.
Jonathan Edwards is often recognized as America's greatest scholar. He was a dynamic preacher. . . . . and hate seems a mighty strong word for that sermon. He got kicked out of his own church for not letting non Christians take communion, it is not a feast, but a memorial. There is a great deal to be gleaned from reading the Puritans IMO.
Kind of like reading the OT though :)
I also like and can see that our lives really are hid in Christ.
Off topic and just my opinion
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excathedra
dear spec or spectrum etc i was just hugging you for your story because it touched my heart
----
since this thread is not in the
research forum i feel i can reply
but i can't see what i'm writing
i believe god is my father and jesus christ saved me
but i'm not a big fan of the bible lol
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roberterasmus
Yeah, Edwards is a bit much for me. There's too much Calvinism, too much brimstone. I'll leave that for the unbelievers at the telos. He was (and is) considered an intellect of the highest order, but if someone cannot acknowledge "free will" (and for that matter open theism (God can change His mind) I cannot abide. Love (actually)"hid with Christ in God".
And it's the "goodness (gentleness?) of God" that brings anyone to a "change of mind".
Bob
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geisha779
Thanks! :)
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spectrum49
Thanks EX!
I was just reading it again and had to laugh at myself! I said I was about 16 when my younger brother joined the army. He is 3 years younger, so does that mean he joined at the age of 13? :unsure:
Oh well - I could always call and ask him - then I would know how old I "really was" at the time.
But all in all, I know it was the "heart" contained in the story which "touched you".
Thanks again for the sentiment!
SPEC
:)
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penworks
For those interested, here's a link to another topic that you might find relevant to this discussion.
Research and premesis
Cheers!
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spectrum49
Thanks for that LINK, Penworks! I read all the posts in it (from 2008). Many good points are made pertinent to this TOPIC you started, and it contains many "first hand accounts" by those who did "research" while at TWI.
SPEC
:)
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