Atheists in general aren't "starkly opposed to God", but don't believe that he exists. Big difference.
Probably why I drew a distinction. :) Although, a strong argument from scripture can be made to the contrary. It all comes down to the reality of God.
I suspect for most of us. . . .our individual realities will amount to at best, 80 or 90 years (stay healthy) and the rest left up to the ultimate reality or the lack of one. Time passes quickly.
There are exceptions, but then again. . . . once someone "adopts" an individual reality. . . it ceases to be.
To me, there is a case to be made that apathy is just a passive form of opposition. . . . . which is why I believe the scriptures say we are without excuse.
It all only really matters if one day we are called to account before the God revealed in the Christian scriptures. . . . not believing. . . . with not change that reality if it is to be.
It all only really matters if one day we are called to account before the God revealed in the Christian scriptures. . . . not believing. . . . with not change that reality if it is to be.
The problem with this statement is that it assumes Christianity to be the only vehicle of communion with God.
Can you learn the secrets of the firefly by holding it captive in a jar?
The problem with this statement is that it assumes Christianity to be the only vehicle of communion with God.
Can you learn the secrets of the firefly by holding it captive in a jar?
No Waysider. . . . it is a statement which simply takes into account the God revealed within the Judeo/Christian scripture. Scripture which clearly states that we are not to have other Gods before Him. Not that there are not other Gods. . .in fact, doesn't this seem to affirm that?
Knowing this would be a response I was so careful in my wording. . . . what did I write?
"It all only really matters if one day we are called to account before the God revealed in the Christian scriptures"
That is where it will matter what we believe about Him. . . . and the sacrifice of His Son. He doesn't make or allow another provision. It is expressly prohibited. The one He made is enough for the whole world.
He is a God who does speak about being evident within a jar of fireflies. . . . The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.
I too believe God is clearly evident within creation. But, He is not His creation and according to scripture we are not saved by recognizing His glory in it. That just makes us without excuse. Idolatry is an offense against the glory of God, because it seeks glory somewhere other than in God, even within His creation.
But, think about how much greater the creator must be. . . if the creation thrills . . . how much more will He?
That is why I said it only matters if we stand before the God revealed in the Christian scripture.
If I am called to account before Allah. . . my faith in the scriptures will hold me in good stead as a "People of the Book" and for when I stand before the scales. . . . . . because I try to love my neighbor as myself. . . and do good unto all men.
If I am reincarnated. . . I get to do it all over again until I reach the depth of enlightenment needed to reach Nirvana. . . or for looking into a jar of fireflies.
Maybe I will simply be reabsorbed into the One. . . . or simply cease to exist.
Where is it going to make the difference? Christian God of scripture.
For my admitedly Christian oriented conscience I do not fear any other reality in terms of any judgement I may hypothetically recieve from any universal reality. If I manage to learn to better and deal with my faults within the Christian framework that I understand, I feel content with consequences from any source and/or philosophy.
The "Holding the firefly in the jar" mentality I do find to be a human failing and not exclusively Christian. My opinion of God's place in my life makes me of necessity the small and insignificant one by comparison, and I find that realization enough to counter any "firefly in the jar" tendencies I might have.
Life, death, sickness, heartache, sorrow and tears; things going on that I have no real control over necessitate me discovering that I am small and fortunate to simply be drawing another breath.
But within a Godless philosiphy I find adequate and comfortable fellowship simply acknowledging and respecting their own school of hard knocks.
Whether religious or not I find a gut level antipathy with those that look down on others and believe that they have all the answers.
Compared to these huge life lessons, which IMO are also a well worn scriptural perspective; whether the prophet shares of God's arrows taking hold in his flesh, or whether the prophet is heartbroken over proclaiming God's judgement on the evil/foolish ones; parsing verbs and puffed up textual/intellectual criticisms seem somewhat annoying and require me to count to ten or something before I unwisely loose my patience/temper.
i think i have "blind" faith and always have. yes, i was raised catholic and then went on to search and found the way ministry, and now i'm back to my blind faith
i hope this makes sense to you wonderful intellectual folks
and i have to say, i'm really content with my faith in god and jesus christ
what do you think?
--
--
ps. "content" is not the right word. i personally feel i could not survive without this faith
Is there some reason for having "singled me out" (if indeed "SPEC" is referring to me)?
Was there something "in particular" I said which you had in mind?
Just Curious...
SPEC
:)
PS: As an "afterthought", and having read your post again, is this perhaps in reference to my "story" of learning to trust God BEFORE TWI and then (having left them) just continuing on "my merry way" as from my youth?
...Bemoaning the fact that TWI and it’s research arm did not exist in a manner to which you now ascribe...
...The splinter groups that purport to “carry on” this work in a manner that takes only the “good things” of VP and perfects them need scrutiny too (as those here can well imagine). None of them, as some one astutely pointed out, have research groups within them. It’s quite telling, IMHO...
...There is a dearth of Biblical research around it is true...
How appropriate your comments are to this discussion, roberterasmus!
I have said this before - and I think it bears repeating....
I did a little study once concerning TWI's liquidation of assets at times to generate ready capital by which to continue their ever-waning existence since the split some years ago.
I was not really suprised to discover that among the first things to go were The Way College of Emporia Kansas and its "sister location", The Way College of Biblical Research - Indiana Campus.
Isn't it interesting how they truly value their "research arm", as you had put it?
And (IMHO) I think it is utterly ludicrous for a "Biblical Research and Teaching" ministry to have No Research Department!
To me, that is like a cafeteria which has NO FOOD!
The link doesn't work well, but if you click on anything on the site. . . . it comes up
We are dedicated to the research and teaching of God's wonderful Word. What makes us different? Read a few articles and find out. You won't find any unfounded tradition here, just straight Bible.
I trust that the fundamental principles laid out in our "How to Research the Bible" section will be helpful.
We have been so blessed and helped in our lives because we have learned how the Bible interprets itself. We know that the Scripture interprets itself in the verse, or in the context, or where it has been used before and lots more.
I was not really suprised to discover that among the first things to go were The Way College of Emporia Kansas and its "sister location", The Way College of Biblical Research - Indiana Campus.
Isn't it interesting how they truly value their "research arm", as you had put it?
And (IMHO) I think it is utterly ludicrous for a "Biblical Research and Teaching" ministry to have No Research Department!
To me, that is like a cafeteria which has NO FOOD!
SPEC
Just for the record, there was no research department with people dedicated to doing any "research" at the Indiana Campus. The name of that property just propped up the idea of research being taught in classes to the Corps, classes like O.T. history, Figures of Speech, Intro Greek, Aramaic, etc. just at they were taught in Emporia to the Corps there.
At the Emporia campus in the 1980s, there was one staff person, a Corps grad , who conducted some Aramaic manuscript research. Before that, in 1978 at Emporia, three in-resident corps people were assigned a 4-hour/day job doing some research stuff but they discovered major problems with VP's work and left/were kicked out, whatever...
During the 1970s and 1980s, there were individuals scattered around the country (some at Univ. of Chicago, some at other colleges, some trained in-house at TWI like me in Aramaic) who were "on the field" and affiliated with the "official" reasearch department at HQ in New Knoxville where the "official" research was done for publication. That department grew from two people in 1970 (W*lter C*mmins and B*er*ita J*ss to about 10 people in 1984 when I worked there. Over the years people were hired and fired or left on their own, as has been discussed on other threads here.
There are some old posts here by Catcup who did research for LCM after I left, etc.
So the fact that these properties were sold off does not, IMO, impact any notion of a loss in the research area. Just a loss of places to indoctrinate Corps.
The link doesn't work well, but if you click on anything on the site. . . . it comes up
We are dedicated to the research and teaching of God's wonderful Word. What makes us different? Read a few articles and find out. You won't find any unfounded tradition here, just straight Bible.
I trust that the fundamental principles laid out in our "How to Research the Bible" section will be helpful.
We have been so blessed and helped in our lives because we have learned how the Bible interprets itself. We know that the Scripture interprets itself in the verse, or in the context, or where it has been used before and lots more.
This is K*n Br*own, a grad of the 3rd Corps who worked as W*alter C*um*ins assistant in the 1980s to about 1988 or so and he was also in charge of the Library at HQ but was not "officially" on the Research Team. I know him because I was in the 2nd Corps when he was in the 3rd Corps and when I was on the Research team 1984-1986 my desk was right across from his in the research room for two years. As it says on this web site, he taught math at one time and he was ordained by VPW. He was a loyal wayfer and it looks as if he still holds to VPW dogmas.
Thanks for the detailed additional information Penworks!
I should have suspected there was never any "real effort" concerning "Biblical research" by TWI all along!
When I first visited The Way Internationl HQ for "Sunday Night Services" in 1975, we met in the old "BRC" (Biblical Research Center), long since replaced by the "Auditorium" just down the road.
Now I get it! "BRC" was just the "name" they used to make it sound exciting to people like myself who thrilled at the notion of "being in on the cutting edge of Biblical technology" in our day and time.
I did say (in an earlier post) they had "sucked me in". Well, that's exactly how they did it!
PT Barnum was right - "There is a sucker born every minute."
The research at TWI actually took place at the HQ in New Knoxville. Just ask Charlene, she was a part of it. What better question to ask was how the research was done. There were some qualified people there, but often they were not allowed to move in directions that they would have wanted. There was a national research colloquium of which I was part (living in Chicago there was a group of us there who attended the University of Chicago and would often get together for the purpose of research).
But there is really nothing except individuals now (splinter groups are not strong enough to support this effort). I keep in touch with many of them and am trying to put together something electronically whereby we can collaborate. It's a lot easier these days to communicate over long distances.
Looks like Charlene was writing at the same moment I was in response to Spec! See, electronics and the internet are such exciting venues.
But let's not bury the hatchet so deep in the back of TWI that we forget (at least those of us who still consider the Scriptures...Scriptures...) that there was important work being done there. Though probably better in another thread, I could show the value of the Syriac Interlinear and certainly some of the other things that we worked on. It is a more complicated story about TWI than VP governed every jot and tittle that went out of there. As Charlene mentions above, there were people that left in disagreement, there were those who stayed and actually helped in a lot of areas.
As I mentioned above, it's not enough to just rant about "how bad it was" (I was there...it was bad), but rather to distinguish where the badness was allowed into your life and resolve to fix it; resolve to not make the mistake again and move on (in my case) with God. If not the God as portrayed by TWI (I hope not...) then certainly the God portrayed in the Scriptures. If you still have a hunger for the stuff there is a lot out there.
This is K*n Br*own, a grad of the 3rd Corps who worked as W*alter C*um*ins assistant in the 1980s to about 1988 or so and he was also in charge of the Library at HQ but was not "officially" on the Research Team. I know him because I was in the 2nd Corps when he was in the 3rd Corps and when I was on the Research team 1984-1986 my desk was right across from his in the research room for two years. As it says on this web site, he taught math at one time and he was ordained by VPW. He was a loyal wayfer and it looks as if he still holds to VPW dogmas.
From what I read . . . I think he may be or has been part of STF as well. There was some Truth or Tradition verbiage scattered about. One option was "fellowships" so, maybe they are part of a larger group.
I found it because I was looking up Bishop Pillai . . . .most things that come up concerning him are TWI related in some way. This site came up in the search. Bishop KC Pillai/The Brown Bible
One thing I noticed is they are very vague concerning things like WHO ordained him into WHAT denomination . . . and where this" theological training" came from.
Although, the donate button was prominent. . . . and with scripture attached.
...As I mentioned above, it's not enough to just rant about "how bad it was" (I was there...it was bad), but rather to distinguish where the badness was allowed into your life and resolve to fix it; resolve to not make the mistake again and move on (in my case) with God. If not the God as portrayed by TWI (I hope not...) then certainly the God portrayed in the Scriptures. If you still have a hunger for the stuff there is a lot out there.
Sorry for appearing to "rant". I was just laughing at myself a bit. The truth is, in my heart I will always be thankful to The (early) Way for having introduced me to a "few keys" on how the Bible interprets itself.
True enough, if I had searched a bit more, perhaps I could have found those same keys here and there, but it was nice to have them "all together in one package" so to speak.
I gleaned what I could from them over the years, and moved on when I realized they had no interest in things I had found while applying those KEYS - and I have MOVED ON, as you put it.
And yes, SIR! I do (and shall always have) a hunger for "the truth". I learn from many here at GS, including you!
You said "there is a lot out there". Well (and excuse me for "plugging" my own work) I plan to be adding to "the pile" soon with my first book. I believe I shall call it, "Genesis One: God's Table of Contents".
I'm not in it for the pleasure of "Book Signings" and "Royalties" promised by my publisher. Those things would be nice, (and I sure wouldn't refuse them!) but my heart is to share some "exciting things" I have found to as many as will want to see them.
FYI, Advanced copies will probably be available in August, and the "official release" around November.
(end of commercial - LOL)
SPEC
:)
PS: Penworks - Do I owe you anything for "advertising" on "your space" here? It is your topic.
Looks like Charlene was writing at the same moment I was in response to Spec! See, electronics and the internet are such exciting venues.
But let's not bury the hatchet so deep in the back of TWI that we forget (at least those of us who still consider the Scriptures...Scriptures...) that there was important work being done there. Though probably better in another thread, I could show the value of the Syriac Interlinear and certainly some of the other things that we worked on. It is a more complicated story about TWI than VP governed every jot and tittle that went out of there. As Charlene mentions above, there were people that left in disagreement, there were those who stayed and actually helped in a lot of areas.
As I mentioned above, it's not enough to just rant about "how bad it was" (I was there...it was bad), but rather to distinguish where the badness was allowed into your life and resolve to fix it; resolve to not make the mistake again and move on (in my case) with God. If not the God as portrayed by TWI (I hope not...) then certainly the God portrayed in the Scriptures. If you still have a hunger for the stuff there is a lot out there.
RE
What you say is very true, Bob, about the value of some (and only a little bit IMO) of research work that was being done back then, in particular the Aramaic Concordance and Interlinear (my story An Affinity for Windows posted on the front page here tries to tell that story in part). Those are good academic works; I worked on them, albeit in a small way. There is at least one thread at this site started by others that I've posted in here about research, so I'll try and find them for you, or I believe if you use the Search feature here they'll pop up.
Did you know that currently there is a lawsuit going on in which TWI is suing an organization in Texas for copyright infringement regarding the translation found in the Interlinear? The unfortunate thing about the Interlinear translation done by your colleague and mine, Jo* W*se, was changed after he was "fired" so that it would comply with TWI teachings, i.e. the Eli Eli issue around "forsake." The person TWI brought in to do that was, you might remember, B*uce M*hone who now runs a TWI offshoot now called Capital Area Fellowship or something like that.
Regarding the Eli Eli issue, when I asked W*lter whether Lamsa could've just misled VP, he said, "Charlene, Dr. Wierwille was more spiritual than we are." So when you're up against that sort of thinking, which valued VPW's interpretations and opinions over what the text actually said, what do you do?
Anyway, in my opinion, some efforts at Greek work done by others on the team while I was there were done competently in good faith by well meaning people, some of whom were trained, as you were, at the Univ. of Chicago. The problem, as I see it, was that there was no avenue for correcting VP's errors in Greek translating or Syriac that he had already taught and were considered by many TWI followers to be the "accuracy of the Word." Nor was there a way to retrieve or address some teachings he changed over the years, i.e. the issue of when soul life begins, as cited in my story. While I was on the team, VP was the invisible "Big Brother" always watching us and this pressure on W*lter made things uncomfortable, at best.
But the larger issues for me became, and I only speak for myself, the unspoken but implied message that for me to "walk with God" I would need to know
1) the accuracy of the Bible
2) to know God's will
3) which leads to the understanding that if I did not want to take anyone else's word for what the Bible said, then I would need to
4) learn the manuscript languages for myself, i.e. Greek and Syriac, Coptic, Latin, etc. to do research in order to
5) know the Bible in order to
6) know what "God" was really saying (and I came to realize that might not be what I was dealing with when reading the Bible)
7) in order to do the will of God, etc. etc.. which is what I thought I should do in life.
Mmmm....when I finally started thinking about all that, it seemed an unattainable goal for me and I suspect it is for most people and it didn't make much practical sense or financial sense, not to mention spiritual sense.
I figured if it was that hard and convoluted - and expensive in more ways than one - to know God and live a spiritual life, well... I'd try and find another way to do it.
Please know that while I respect the academic endeavors and training of people like yourself, and of course my old friend J*e W*se who is still my friend (in fact I have extremely high regard for academia and am even married to an academic now ) when it comes to things religious, I am one of those people who feels that spirituality is personal and does not require the treadmill of Bible study or other written material to attain, although those seem to augment it for some people.
As an aside, I am beginning to think it would be a very interesting project to get translated into English other ancient writings from other cultures that have been left out in the cold of academic pursuit because of how much money, time, and effort is still focused in the West, at least, on Bible materials. If I had different training and a different life, I might try that just for fun.
It seems especially pathetic to me that in spite of their public stance which really amounts to "worshipping of da Verd" as you say that they've really butchered and hashed to pieces the scriptures.
I've come to consider the root cause of TWI's pathetic reality of scriptural study to not be the scriptures or Christianity as a whole. I really, really understand why many seem to be anable to even view the scriptures without seeing some kind of Wierwillian personality disorder, but doesn't all this prove the scripture that says, "You shall know them by their fruit" to be at the very least a valid observation?
I think TWI so nit picked the Bible they became worshippers of "da Word."
Jeez, what did people do who read it before concordances, various translations, commentaries, etc.
They simply read it and were enlightened. God will show people what they need to know.
TWI just made it of no effect by their tearing it apart - super analyzing every jot and tittle. It turned us into bondage masters of legalism.
Not to mention how we totally subjugated the whole point of the scriptures, Jesus, while vaunting the scriptures themselves. That takes some serious maneuvering and talent. No wonder there was so much "research" going on . . . it takes awhile to get the Christ out of Christianity.
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penworks
Hold everything. Some people can believe that they are not sure they believe in God. That is another topic that belongs in a different thread, IMO. I appreciate these lessons in mathmatics and lo
Sunesis
With all due respect Spectrum, who cares when this thread will end? Most people here have enjoyed reading the posts and having their say. Sure, threads meander here, there, everywhere. Its the Body
penworks
I've been thinking about these sorts of things a long time, myself. One thing I found is that there are other ways to value the Bible besides thinkig it is has to be either "God's Word" (thereby it h
geisha779
Probably why I drew a distinction. :) Although, a strong argument from scripture can be made to the contrary. It all comes down to the reality of God.
I suspect for most of us. . . .our individual realities will amount to at best, 80 or 90 years (stay healthy) and the rest left up to the ultimate reality or the lack of one. Time passes quickly.
There are exceptions, but then again. . . . once someone "adopts" an individual reality. . . it ceases to be.
To me, there is a case to be made that apathy is just a passive form of opposition. . . . . which is why I believe the scriptures say we are without excuse.
It all only really matters if one day we are called to account before the God revealed in the Christian scriptures. . . . not believing. . . . with not change that reality if it is to be.
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waysider
The problem with this statement is that it assumes Christianity to be the only vehicle of communion with God.
Can you learn the secrets of the firefly by holding it captive in a jar?
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penworks
Yes, and that's another part of why I've let go of the Christian myth ...
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geisha779
No Waysider. . . . it is a statement which simply takes into account the God revealed within the Judeo/Christian scripture. Scripture which clearly states that we are not to have other Gods before Him. Not that there are not other Gods. . .in fact, doesn't this seem to affirm that?
Knowing this would be a response I was so careful in my wording. . . . what did I write?
"It all only really matters if one day we are called to account before the God revealed in the Christian scriptures"
That is where it will matter what we believe about Him. . . . and the sacrifice of His Son. He doesn't make or allow another provision. It is expressly prohibited. The one He made is enough for the whole world.
He is a God who does speak about being evident within a jar of fireflies. . . . The heavens declare the glory of God; the skies proclaim the work of his hands. Day after day they pour forth speech; night after night they display knowledge. There is no speech or language where their voice is not heard. Their voice goes out into all the earth, their words to the ends of the world.
I too believe God is clearly evident within creation. But, He is not His creation and according to scripture we are not saved by recognizing His glory in it. That just makes us without excuse. Idolatry is an offense against the glory of God, because it seeks glory somewhere other than in God, even within His creation.
But, think about how much greater the creator must be. . . if the creation thrills . . . how much more will He?
That is why I said it only matters if we stand before the God revealed in the Christian scripture.
----------------------------------------------------------------
If I am called to account before Allah. . . my faith in the scriptures will hold me in good stead as a "People of the Book" and for when I stand before the scales. . . . . . because I try to love my neighbor as myself. . . and do good unto all men.
If I am reincarnated. . . I get to do it all over again until I reach the depth of enlightenment needed to reach Nirvana. . . or for looking into a jar of fireflies.
Maybe I will simply be reabsorbed into the One. . . . or simply cease to exist.
Where is it going to make the difference? Christian God of scripture.
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penworks
...and now for something completely different...
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JeffSjo
This is a fascinating conversation IMO. :)
For my admitedly Christian oriented conscience I do not fear any other reality in terms of any judgement I may hypothetically recieve from any universal reality. If I manage to learn to better and deal with my faults within the Christian framework that I understand, I feel content with consequences from any source and/or philosophy.
The "Holding the firefly in the jar" mentality I do find to be a human failing and not exclusively Christian. My opinion of God's place in my life makes me of necessity the small and insignificant one by comparison, and I find that realization enough to counter any "firefly in the jar" tendencies I might have.
Life, death, sickness, heartache, sorrow and tears; things going on that I have no real control over necessitate me discovering that I am small and fortunate to simply be drawing another breath.
But within a Godless philosiphy I find adequate and comfortable fellowship simply acknowledging and respecting their own school of hard knocks.
Whether religious or not I find a gut level antipathy with those that look down on others and believe that they have all the answers.
Compared to these huge life lessons, which IMO are also a well worn scriptural perspective; whether the prophet shares of God's arrows taking hold in his flesh, or whether the prophet is heartbroken over proclaiming God's judgement on the evil/foolish ones; parsing verbs and puffed up textual/intellectual criticisms seem somewhat annoying and require me to count to ten or something before I unwisely loose my patience/temper.
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excathedra
thank you all for such a great discussion
(((((( SPEC )))))) and everyone else, really
i think i have "blind" faith and always have. yes, i was raised catholic and then went on to search and found the way ministry, and now i'm back to my blind faith
i hope this makes sense to you wonderful intellectual folks
and i have to say, i'm really content with my faith in god and jesus christ
what do you think?
--
--
ps. "content" is not the right word. i personally feel i could not survive without this faith
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excathedra
please don't laugh
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<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="
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waysider
"It's everywhere, Amen, Bow Wow."
Yes, that's letting the firefly loose.
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spectrum49
excathedra:
Is there some reason for having "singled me out" (if indeed "SPEC" is referring to me)?
Was there something "in particular" I said which you had in mind?
Just Curious...
SPEC
:)
PS: As an "afterthought", and having read your post again, is this perhaps in reference to my "story" of learning to trust God BEFORE TWI and then (having left them) just continuing on "my merry way" as from my youth?
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spectrum49
How appropriate your comments are to this discussion, roberterasmus!
I have said this before - and I think it bears repeating....
I did a little study once concerning TWI's liquidation of assets at times to generate ready capital by which to continue their ever-waning existence since the split some years ago.
I was not really suprised to discover that among the first things to go were The Way College of Emporia Kansas and its "sister location", The Way College of Biblical Research - Indiana Campus.
Isn't it interesting how they truly value their "research arm", as you had put it?
And (IMHO) I think it is utterly ludicrous for a "Biblical Research and Teaching" ministry to have No Research Department!
To me, that is like a cafeteria which has NO FOOD!
SPEC
:)
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geisha779
http://brownbible.com/about-us/
The link doesn't work well, but if you click on anything on the site. . . . it comes up
We are dedicated to the research and teaching of God's wonderful Word. What makes us different? Read a few articles and find out. You won't find any unfounded tradition here, just straight Bible.
I trust that the fundamental principles laid out in our "How to Research the Bible" section will be helpful.
We have been so blessed and helped in our lives because we have learned how the Bible interprets itself. We know that the Scripture interprets itself in the verse, or in the context, or where it has been used before and lots more.
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penworks
Just for the record, there was no research department with people dedicated to doing any "research" at the Indiana Campus. The name of that property just propped up the idea of research being taught in classes to the Corps, classes like O.T. history, Figures of Speech, Intro Greek, Aramaic, etc. just at they were taught in Emporia to the Corps there.
At the Emporia campus in the 1980s, there was one staff person, a Corps grad , who conducted some Aramaic manuscript research. Before that, in 1978 at Emporia, three in-resident corps people were assigned a 4-hour/day job doing some research stuff but they discovered major problems with VP's work and left/were kicked out, whatever...
During the 1970s and 1980s, there were individuals scattered around the country (some at Univ. of Chicago, some at other colleges, some trained in-house at TWI like me in Aramaic) who were "on the field" and affiliated with the "official" reasearch department at HQ in New Knoxville where the "official" research was done for publication. That department grew from two people in 1970 (W*lter C*mmins and B*er*ita J*ss to about 10 people in 1984 when I worked there. Over the years people were hired and fired or left on their own, as has been discussed on other threads here.
There are some old posts here by Catcup who did research for LCM after I left, etc.
So the fact that these properties were sold off does not, IMO, impact any notion of a loss in the research area. Just a loss of places to indoctrinate Corps.
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penworks
This is K*n Br*own, a grad of the 3rd Corps who worked as W*alter C*um*ins assistant in the 1980s to about 1988 or so and he was also in charge of the Library at HQ but was not "officially" on the Research Team. I know him because I was in the 2nd Corps when he was in the 3rd Corps and when I was on the Research team 1984-1986 my desk was right across from his in the research room for two years. As it says on this web site, he taught math at one time and he was ordained by VPW. He was a loyal wayfer and it looks as if he still holds to VPW dogmas.
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spectrum49
Thanks for the detailed additional information Penworks!
I should have suspected there was never any "real effort" concerning "Biblical research" by TWI all along!
When I first visited The Way Internationl HQ for "Sunday Night Services" in 1975, we met in the old "BRC" (Biblical Research Center), long since replaced by the "Auditorium" just down the road.
Now I get it! "BRC" was just the "name" they used to make it sound exciting to people like myself who thrilled at the notion of "being in on the cutting edge of Biblical technology" in our day and time.
I did say (in an earlier post) they had "sucked me in". Well, that's exactly how they did it!
PT Barnum was right - "There is a sucker born every minute."
SPEC
:)
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roberterasmus
Spec,
Thanks for the kind words.
The research at TWI actually took place at the HQ in New Knoxville. Just ask Charlene, she was a part of it. What better question to ask was how the research was done. There were some qualified people there, but often they were not allowed to move in directions that they would have wanted. There was a national research colloquium of which I was part (living in Chicago there was a group of us there who attended the University of Chicago and would often get together for the purpose of research).
But there is really nothing except individuals now (splinter groups are not strong enough to support this effort). I keep in touch with many of them and am trying to put together something electronically whereby we can collaborate. It's a lot easier these days to communicate over long distances.
RE
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roberterasmus
Looks like Charlene was writing at the same moment I was in response to Spec! See, electronics and the internet are such exciting venues.
But let's not bury the hatchet so deep in the back of TWI that we forget (at least those of us who still consider the Scriptures...Scriptures...) that there was important work being done there. Though probably better in another thread, I could show the value of the Syriac Interlinear and certainly some of the other things that we worked on. It is a more complicated story about TWI than VP governed every jot and tittle that went out of there. As Charlene mentions above, there were people that left in disagreement, there were those who stayed and actually helped in a lot of areas.
As I mentioned above, it's not enough to just rant about "how bad it was" (I was there...it was bad), but rather to distinguish where the badness was allowed into your life and resolve to fix it; resolve to not make the mistake again and move on (in my case) with God. If not the God as portrayed by TWI (I hope not...) then certainly the God portrayed in the Scriptures. If you still have a hunger for the stuff there is a lot out there.
RE
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geisha779
From what I read . . . I think he may be or has been part of STF as well. There was some Truth or Tradition verbiage scattered about. One option was "fellowships" so, maybe they are part of a larger group.
I found it because I was looking up Bishop Pillai . . . .most things that come up concerning him are TWI related in some way. This site came up in the search. Bishop KC Pillai/The Brown Bible
One thing I noticed is they are very vague concerning things like WHO ordained him into WHAT denomination . . . and where this" theological training" came from.
Although, the donate button was prominent. . . . and with scripture attached.
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spectrum49
Sorry for appearing to "rant". I was just laughing at myself a bit. The truth is, in my heart I will always be thankful to The (early) Way for having introduced me to a "few keys" on how the Bible interprets itself.
True enough, if I had searched a bit more, perhaps I could have found those same keys here and there, but it was nice to have them "all together in one package" so to speak.
I gleaned what I could from them over the years, and moved on when I realized they had no interest in things I had found while applying those KEYS - and I have MOVED ON, as you put it.
And yes, SIR! I do (and shall always have) a hunger for "the truth". I learn from many here at GS, including you!
You said "there is a lot out there". Well (and excuse me for "plugging" my own work) I plan to be adding to "the pile" soon with my first book. I believe I shall call it, "Genesis One: God's Table of Contents".
I'm not in it for the pleasure of "Book Signings" and "Royalties" promised by my publisher. Those things would be nice, (and I sure wouldn't refuse them!) but my heart is to share some "exciting things" I have found to as many as will want to see them.
FYI, Advanced copies will probably be available in August, and the "official release" around November.
(end of commercial - LOL)
SPEC
:)
PS: Penworks - Do I owe you anything for "advertising" on "your space" here? It is your topic.
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penworks
What you say is very true, Bob, about the value of some (and only a little bit IMO) of research work that was being done back then, in particular the Aramaic Concordance and Interlinear (my story An Affinity for Windows posted on the front page here tries to tell that story in part). Those are good academic works; I worked on them, albeit in a small way. There is at least one thread at this site started by others that I've posted in here about research, so I'll try and find them for you, or I believe if you use the Search feature here they'll pop up.
Did you know that currently there is a lawsuit going on in which TWI is suing an organization in Texas for copyright infringement regarding the translation found in the Interlinear? The unfortunate thing about the Interlinear translation done by your colleague and mine, Jo* W*se, was changed after he was "fired" so that it would comply with TWI teachings, i.e. the Eli Eli issue around "forsake." The person TWI brought in to do that was, you might remember, B*uce M*hone who now runs a TWI offshoot now called Capital Area Fellowship or something like that.
Regarding the Eli Eli issue, when I asked W*lter whether Lamsa could've just misled VP, he said, "Charlene, Dr. Wierwille was more spiritual than we are." So when you're up against that sort of thinking, which valued VPW's interpretations and opinions over what the text actually said, what do you do?
Anyway, in my opinion, some efforts at Greek work done by others on the team while I was there were done competently in good faith by well meaning people, some of whom were trained, as you were, at the Univ. of Chicago. The problem, as I see it, was that there was no avenue for correcting VP's errors in Greek translating or Syriac that he had already taught and were considered by many TWI followers to be the "accuracy of the Word." Nor was there a way to retrieve or address some teachings he changed over the years, i.e. the issue of when soul life begins, as cited in my story. While I was on the team, VP was the invisible "Big Brother" always watching us and this pressure on W*lter made things uncomfortable, at best.
But the larger issues for me became, and I only speak for myself, the unspoken but implied message that for me to "walk with God" I would need to know
1) the accuracy of the Bible
2) to know God's will
3) which leads to the understanding that if I did not want to take anyone else's word for what the Bible said, then I would need to
4) learn the manuscript languages for myself, i.e. Greek and Syriac, Coptic, Latin, etc. to do research in order to
5) know the Bible in order to
6) know what "God" was really saying (and I came to realize that might not be what I was dealing with when reading the Bible)
7) in order to do the will of God, etc. etc.. which is what I thought I should do in life.
Mmmm....when I finally started thinking about all that, it seemed an unattainable goal for me and I suspect it is for most people and it didn't make much practical sense or financial sense, not to mention spiritual sense.
I figured if it was that hard and convoluted - and expensive in more ways than one - to know God and live a spiritual life, well... I'd try and find another way to do it.
Please know that while I respect the academic endeavors and training of people like yourself, and of course my old friend J*e W*se who is still my friend (in fact I have extremely high regard for academia and am even married to an academic now
) when it comes to things religious, I am one of those people who feels that spirituality is personal and does not require the treadmill of Bible study or other written material to attain, although those seem to augment it for some people.
As an aside, I am beginning to think it would be a very interesting project to get translated into English other ancient writings from other cultures that have been left out in the cold of academic pursuit because of how much money, time, and effort is still focused in the West, at least, on Bible materials. If I had different training and a different life, I might try that just for fun.
Withe respect and best regards,
Charlene
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Sunesis
I think TWI so nit picked the Bible they became worshippers of "da Word."
Jeez, what did people do who read it before concordances, various translations, commentaries, etc.
They simply read it and were enlightened. God will show people what they need to know.
TWI just made it of no effect by their tearing it apart - super analyzing every jot and tittle. It turned us into bondage masters of legalism.
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JeffSjo
I hear you Sunesis!
It seems especially pathetic to me that in spite of their public stance which really amounts to "worshipping of da Verd" as you say that they've really butchered and hashed to pieces the scriptures.
I've come to consider the root cause of TWI's pathetic reality of scriptural study to not be the scriptures or Christianity as a whole. I really, really understand why many seem to be anable to even view the scriptures without seeing some kind of Wierwillian personality disorder, but doesn't all this prove the scripture that says, "You shall know them by their fruit" to be at the very least a valid observation?
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geisha779
Not to mention how we totally subjugated the whole point of the scriptures, Jesus, while vaunting the scriptures themselves. That takes some serious maneuvering and talent. No wonder there was so much "research" going on . . . it takes awhile to get the Christ out of Christianity.
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Sunesis
Geisha - LOL!!! It does take awhile!
Jeff, you're right. I can't blame people. When I left TWI, I put it down and didn't touch or look at it for a couple of years.
There's a word for what we became: Bibliophiles - those who worship the Bible.
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