What does it take to realize the MOG is really scum?

[soul searcher]

As an example of twisted logic IMO I'd offer that even though JL who was deeply involved in CES admitted to multiple affairs it was reported by one of the ladies here that at first he wouldn't admit to any until she "reminded" him of one. (Like he forgot or something....TTHHPPPP) And even after his admition he so regularly spoke of Wierwille fondly as his "Father in the Word" and such things that I can not but wonder what kind of man can consistently praise Wierwille, who so regularly preyed upon, decieved, and harmed others.

So I'm listening to this class from CFFM, "Living in God's Power" and on comes a section featuring Kevin Guigou. Within a minute he's praising VPW as some sort of great spiritual leader. He lost 99% of his credibility right there.

I continued to listen though, because I have never been one to shut out other voices. But by the time he was done I realized he was no longer talking to me. His is not a theology I accept. In fact, I'm through with the class. It seems to me that he, along with dozens of others (Schroyer, Clapp, Schoenheit, etc.) are keeping alive VPW's misguided and fraudulent theology.

[waysider]

So I'm listening to this class from CFFM, "Living in God's Power" and on comes a section featuring Kevin Guigou. Within a minute he's praising VPW as some sort of great spiritual leader. He lost 99% of his credibility right there.

I continued to listen though, because I have never been one to shut out other voices. But by the time he was done I realized he was no longer talking to me. His is not a theology I accept. In fact, I'm through with the class. It seems to me that he, along with dozens of others (Schroyer, Clapp, Schoenheit, etc.) are keeping alive VPW's misguided and fraudulent theology.

Keep in mind that VPW was his wife's father.

[Ham]

well.. there are "better" drugs. Just not entirely legal anymore..

I was at some kind of crisis in life.. and somebody suggested some kind of Buddhist meditation.. so I thought.. what the hay. Can't do a whole heck of a lot..

so I spend the few moments focusing on the energy coming out of an area a few inches or so above the belly button..

the results took about a week..

but it more than blew a couple of fuses..

then I was on a Quest. *what* happened to me.. heh.

I asked everybody.. I didn't care what they thought about my current or lack of current mental state..

the nice lady with the finest education and degree said basically.. "dang happens" heh.. she had seen the same thing before. She ended up being more a guidance counsellor, than a therapist..

the lady who studied Kaballah said something like.. "we tell our people, don't look directly into the light, you'll get BURNED.."

heh.. sowy. too late friend.. about 3/4 of a second was enough for me.. another fraction of a second, and I don't think I would have survived, in this current material form..

well.. they still let me roam the streets.. heh

The really weird thing about all of this.. I am at peace.

Anybody else who experienced anything like this.. I'd love to hear from you..

I hope I'm not the only one here..

[sirguessalot]

for what its worth...no, you are not alone ham. ive had my share of such moments...and the quests that follow.

and it may be that "a fraction of a second" more and your material form would have very well "survived" in a general conventional sense...yet not in others...like some sort of "extreme makeover" of body and mind and such...even more transformative than the peace you mention.

but i am generalizing. the varieties of such experiences are as complex and as exotic as any wilderness...and of course i dont need to tell you not to take my word for anything.

Would anyone like to share the specifics of how you came to realize the MOG was less than advertised?

one "how" that helped me realize such things...was by comparing religions, comparing religious experiences, and comparing religious claims...and noticing patterns that suggested discernable spectrums of differences in doctrines and practices...even among those using the same texts and languages. was extra helpful to find vast fields of many others who have been noticing the same kinds of patternings...since the dawn of time.

being mostly poetic here...but basically...if "faith" is an instrument of 7 (or so) potential wavelengths...MOGS like vpw and such seem terminally stuck in the first few notes...yet typically think and claim they are playing the whole staff...and so they reject and demonize all other "frequencies" on the staff...unable to "harmonize" the whole.

but as one begins to discern the full bandwidth of patterns...it becomes easier and easier to realize what step any given "MOG" is standing on...and making claims from. (perhaps even more so...easier to realize where we are on our own journey)

and "scum" seems an apt word...as the doctrines and practices, desires and actions and focuses of such MOGs can be associated with the functions of lowest "altitude" of bodily functions.

...faith below the navel, if you will

[OldSkool]

For me it took being assigned to HQ during the lawsuits. I was swept away by the undercurrent of ....ed off staff telling me all about what was going on there. That was the beginning of my departure. Too bad it took several years to play itself out.

[Jim]

Everyone has feet of clay. I have feet of clay and have let down my daughter, my wife and my friends...

But at least I acknowledge that.

Is the MOG scum? I guess they are. I'll let God sort it out. Would I trust the MOG? No, not a chance. I'll live with the standards and values I've grown to accept over the years. I'll not be pressured to accept the constraints of a man-made religious structure.

Jeff, I feel your pain and frustration. Just try to walk away from it for awhile. God, if there is a loving and all-knowing God, will understand your confusion and frustration. Trust him and your feelings.

[JeffSjo]

Jeff, I feel your pain and frustration. Just try to walk away from it for awhile. God, if there is a loving and all-knowing God, will understand your confusion and frustration. Trust him and your feelings.

Hi Jim, thank you for the kind words.

While I have been considering just exactly what I will or will not do as concerning the folks I know still involved in the nasty splinter River Road Fellowship rather heavily of late, confusion does not seem to be a present concern of mine. The ones no longer directly involved seem mired in some hidden trained response involving in part, me and my RRF history. And their situation, while different still occupies some concerns of mine and at present there is very little frank back and forth communication.

My feeling sometimes may be justified by the circumstances but quite often they do not have the most impact on my decisions. I don't trust them, it's just a part of what I work through.

And God will eventually sort it all out, for me and everyone else I believe. I often consider that while remembering my many missjudgements.

But thanks again for the kind words, I'm just not so sure about your advice.

(edited to correct a grammatical error. )

Edited December 9, 2009 by JeffSjo

[JeffSjo]

Actually Jim, I'm just wondering if your kind words are genuine or simply according to old TWI mind games and double speak.

But don't let me saying that confuse you as to my intentions, you don't need to feel any pressure to respond because you really didn't say anything directly untoward.

JEFF

[Ham]

We really need another wienie roast. No, we REALLY do..

Now, the one in Kentucky.. nobody got damaged, did they?

I'll bring the gas fired expresso maker.. along with the Cabernet. I'll be an *innocent* bystander this time..

[Ham]

Maybe we can convince Lilhawk to bring some more elderberry wine..

consume with caution, if there is such a thing..

[JeffSjo]

We really need another wienie roast. No, we REALLY do..

Now, the one in Kentucky.. nobody got damaged, did they?

I'll bring the gas fired expresso maker.. along with the Cabernet. I'll be an *innocent* bystander this time..

Your post reminds me that among many Greasespotters I am still a newbie. :B)

What happened at the weenie roast? It sounds as if whatever it was Ham, you were not either innocent or bystanding.

And besides, it just may possibly be in my humble opinion that you are capable of being above average in the provocation dept.

Edited December 11, 2009 by JeffSjo

[Ham]

True.. I generally try to rein it in though, use my provocative "powers" for the good of man..

sometimes I'm just trying to provoke a laugh.. people don't always take me the way I intend it..

Oh.. the roast. It's like Vegas. What happens at the roast generally stays at the roast.. or something like that.

[JeffSjo]

I think bringung up the weenie roast is funny Ham, especially how you just did, including yourself in the mix.

And doubtlessly we are all better of for your determination to not go to the dark side.

TWI is one thing, but what I've heard of the weenie roast does and could be some excellent stories IMO. :P to you all!

Edited December 12, 2009 by JeffSjo

[Ham]

Paw was at this one roast.. I'd like to see his rating.. how many stars did we garner.. I shouldn't ask *me*.. heh

Edited December 14, 2009 by Ham

[krys]

I don't think it's so hard to pick out the scum but you need to know how to do it. Those younger members may not be able to do it since they don't have enough life experience.....but if something looks odd, keep it in the front of your mind and build on it, if necessary. I know that if I saw something that I wasn't sure of, prayer would often tell me....not right away sometimes, but I'd see other stuff to add to what I already knew.

Watch the little things. How do the married men treat their wives in public? That's a biggie because sometimes they don't realize how much they give away that way.

I saw a very recently graduated Corps couple come to a class we were running. We had 3 people who worked far enough away that they would skip supper, or go home for dinner, or some fast food place and probably be late. We had a sandwich and a glass of milk waiting for them when they arrived and sometime their timing was so close that they didn't finish the sandwich. The man and his wife were to be our branch coordinators and he grabbed me by my shoulders and walked me down the hall and then lit into me for playing favorites....and classes don't make fancy refreshments.....yadda yadda. I was really taken aback....he was more into the rules than shepherding the people. That was a scum alert....however he did ease up a little when he realized that this was the real world....not way land where everything works on the same clock. In the real world some people have 90 minute commutes or longer and it they want to take a class, putting a littlle substance in their bellies allows them to concentrate.

Hang back and keep your eyes open and you'll see everything you need to see to pick out the scum. In years gone by, maybe approach didn't work. BUT at that time we weren't all convinced that some were scum and now we know better.

There was one who had been around a couple of years, and he seemed to me to be a little to friendly with the women. He was a bachelor. I couldn't decide if he was just being chivalrous with coats and doors and stuff or if there was more to it. One evening we were gathering for a class and you know how every bod kisses everybody else......well.....he kissed me a little more than "hello I'm glad to see you"...a couple of weeks later he did the same thing. Now it's not that I'm so good looking etc. It's just their patterns, their habits that eventually give them away.

I'm sorry if this is too long. You'll have to trust the judgment of people in other areas to find about about those you don't see all the time.

[JeffSjo]

Hi Krys,

To me the sad part about all of this is that I gave my loyalty firstly to TWI and then that nasty little splinter group I was involved in after TWI called River Road Fellowship (Look to the "MY Story" section for the details.) And for me it is evident that not only did I not hold onto the warnings in order to consider them, but add to that that the scum in charge in both cases had my support too.

But the especially galling part for me is that as these groups had my loyalty, my natural zeal for spiritual things was totally misdirected in terms of doing much of anybody any real long term good. In other words everybody that I witnessed to I also ignorantly directed straight into the clutches of an abusive organization whose sickos in charge kept their true proclivities relatively hidden.

Now looking back on it all I remember many things that should have warned me, but even now there are several people whose supposed spirituality will in the long run end up being simply a product of leadership spin and self-serving misdirection. It would be better to never have to learn to recover from being misled in such an evil fashion. And now for me the same cliches that used to hold me captive now sound as empty and hollow as any other blatant lie.

At least something can be said for having the experience to at least possibly giving somebody an effective warning so they need not see the same kind of misdirection that many of us spent our youthful zeal in for lack of wisdom and experience IMO.

(A little content was added for the sake of clarity.)

Edited December 14, 2009 by JeffSjo