that whole man of God concept has been taken so far out of concept that in practice it's really perverse. It implies blind obedience to the directive given. Supported by fallacies like suggestion from leadership is paramount to command. Then you have the army of yes men groomed by the prez herself who give incidents of how they didn't agree with it at first but were humble enough to obey in spite of their reservations...of course in the end they saw how right the leadership was....praise God... People are supposed to mull the advice, take it to the Bible, pray, rely on the spirit of God in them to know if it's right. Not rely on some out of context, Old Testament Theocracy ideal to steer them right.
As for the sexual predator thing?....yeah. I read the depositions from the lawsuit. VP taught LCM who really took it to new heights.
Supported by fallacies like suggestion from leadership is paramount to command.
I think this "suggestion of a leader being paramount to a command" stuff was actually a quote from someone else like Napoleon or something. Maybe it was from a book that was popular amongst TWI in the late 70's called "Marine!". Anyone remember? I'm about positive this "insight" didn't originate with Wierwille himself. It doesn't seem that very many insights originated with Wierwille himself.
that whole man of God concept has been taken so far out of concept that in practice it's really perverse. It implies blind obedience to the directive given. Supported by fallacies like suggestion from leadership is paramount to command. Then you have the army of yes men groomed by the prez herself who give incidents of how they didn't agree with it at first but were humble enough to obey in spite of their reservations...of course in the end they saw how right the leadership was....praise God... People are supposed to mull the advice, take it to the Bible, pray, rely on the spirit of God in them to know if it's right. Not rely on some out of context, Old Testament Theocracy ideal to steer them right.
As for the sexual predator thing?....yeah. I read the depositions from the lawsuit. VP taught LCM who really took it to new heights.
Dear OldSkool,
So did the depositions as concerning LCM's sexual predation coming from VPW's guidance start turning the tables for you, or were other factors more significant to you in terms of coming to new conclusions concerning these men?
I just thought it could be good to hear others share about what got them rethinking loyalties to TWI scum...uh...er...I mean, "top leadership".
For me, realizing the true nature of their character as revealed in their actions makes once believing they were due my unthinking obedience and loyalty harder to take, but I think it is better to know for sure how badly we were taken in by these folks than not knowing what kind of men once held our loyalties.
So did the depositions as concerning LCM's sexual predation coming from VPW's guidance start turning the tables for you, or were other factors more significant to you in terms of coming to new conclusions concerning these men?
It certainly removed them from their undeserved pedestal that I had been taught to keep them on. Especially VPW.
For me, realizing the true nature of their character as revealed in their actions makes once believing they were due my unthinking obedience and loyalty harder to take, but I think it is better to know for sure how badly we were taken in by these folks than not knowing what kind of men once held our loyalties.
Even though the sexual predation has apparently stopped with LCM, so many other undesirable practices are still going strong with the BOD and their supporters. It took me a few years of being close to them to begin to identify the wrongs. Eventually I ran headlong into them in the form of a series of confrontations. Confrontations that I can without a doubt say I retained the upper hand. My time here at GSC is all about decompression. I need to vent the experiences. Also, I will not keep silent the things that I was exposed too lest by my silence I condone these very things.
It certainly removed them from their undeserved pedestal that I had been taught to keep them on. Especially VPW.
Even though the sexual predation has apparently stopped with LCM, so many other undesirable practices are still going strong with the BOD and their supporters. It took me a few years of being close to them to begin to identify the wrongs. Eventually I ran headlong into them in the form of a series of confrontations. Confrontations that I can without a doubt say I retained the upper hand. My time here at GSC is all about decompression. I need to vent the experiences. Also, I will not keep silent the things that I was exposed too lest by my silence I condone these very things.
Some of your expeience seems familiar to me Oldskool. While for me those types of experiences happened in the splinter group "River Road Fellowship" instead of TWI, it seems to me that in many respects my splinter group has simply continued many of the worst TWI practises.
And now even though everybody ackknowledges that mistakes were made many of my old friends don't have a freaking clue how far Barnard pulled them away from honest and transparent ministerial dealings. Currently I have heard some of them are saying Barnard deserves patience, love, and getting God's Word spoken to him. In the mean time he's cut and run taking many of the young women with him along with some of his most pliable cronies, both men and women.
And consequently I've heard some of my old friends saying of me things as, "I can't talk to Jeff and still expect to help people." But it seems to me as one who saw Barnard use some of my old friends to completely screw ME over that I have the right to expect them to be willing to deal with how they treated me while under Barnard's influence. A sound scripture reference seems to me to expect them to win or lose me as a brother according to their willingness to be honest about what happened to me. If it were Barnard expecting as he did to have the man that he spit on apologize for falling asleep and disrespecting his ministry I would know it was a wicked and abusive power play, but since I want to talk with them about how they helped Barnard and were part of me losing my wife and son that I am being reasonable in expecting their forthrightness. GOD WILL JUDGE.
And that while they say they are holding on to things that Barnard did that are far scumier than anything anyone has the courage to share with me so far they simply have been bamboozled into another pointless and false nobility that has been styled after TWI's lockbox. And furthermore, since they refuse to handle these true events with honesty and transparency they simply hide the damage thay have aided Barnard in committing to many individuals and families. And similar to TWI ex-leadership I am fairly certain that they would not be encouraged to be honest as a witness in any kind of lawsuit as is fairly common such as "Estrangement of Affection" and other things.
It is a grave disservice to the spirit of a woman when she is given the subtle message that the truth of her own pain is not as important as the reputation of the ones who inflicted it.
I think the term "the suggestion of the leader is tantamount to a command" is just military jargon. I heard it in 1974. Problem is, none of these guys is a general, admiral, or even a genuine imperial grand high Poobah.
I escaped abuse by the grace of God, but it does not cease to amaze me how many of these self-proclaimed MOGs get away with this kind of crap. I would love to be a fly on the wall when they are exposed for what they really are.
These jerks have no right to think, speak about, or do anything sexual to anyone but their own spouse. Anything else is sin, and most likely illegal.
Your question “What does it take to realize the MOG is really scum? “
For me it was when the limb cord called the meeting that LCM had a one-time affair..
I cannot believe I even considered him too be a MOG. LCM put the way household thru hell,
Crazy rants, devils spirits under every rock, genuine spiritual suspicion and lets not forget
his obsession with the old testament that put everyone under bondage and grace was gone.
A one-time affair was all it took for me, time after time, he slandered people and expected everyone to walk a perfect walk like him. I then realized I put him in a place he never should have been. Then I found waydale and the scales fell from my eyes..
From what I have seen, most people who saw LCM fall, still have faith in the way int 100%.
The Fox did a great spin on putting all the blame on LCM and promoting twi as the only place to be tapped in with God. I find it funny because it the court doc’s the Fox knew of LCM’s extra affairs as early as 1996. People in the way want to be blind, they claim to think and be so spiritual but they are blindly following an old lesbian..
Jeff the MOG can be scum, the new leader of the cornfield cult has taken his wife to be her own, and the people cheer. Stupid is as stupid does. Most will never see them for what they are.
when LCM's apology tape was played and everyone around me excused his actions. I'd noticed weird behavior in some of the top leadership, almost like they couldn't stand having to put up with lesser beings, and I'd been verbally and emotionally abused to the point I didn't trust anyone anyway, and somehow it hit me that night that lies and excuses were the name of the game in twi.
it still took years to get out. I decided to give RR a chance to make things right. she didn't, so I eased myself out the door still fearing that I was putting my kids' lives at risk.
For me it took being told to abandon our son in downtown city where he could become a street child, maybe a whore. That was okay; he was possessed and we could not enter the household of victory whatever the hell they called it with him in tow.
That and LCM portentously announcing on a tape: If you have chronic disease in your life it is because you have chronic sin in your life.
Well excuse me all to hell; Craig. Maybe the chronic disease is MY allergy to YOUR BS!
Just for his "one-time consensual affair" (gag) or for his behavior over many years? His misleading of people? His wresting of the scriptures? His instilling of fear in who knows how many? The mental / spiritual abuse he put so many through? The policy of "mark and avoid"?
...did I miss something?
And, of course, in spirit of this new openness and (what was it that Ric0 called it?) explanation - this apology is available on the TWI website, yes, so that all who were abused can listen?
He said to abandon your child!!!! So.. I wonder how many people down the road before that
were abandoned or given up because of whatever..that is sick sick sick.
I'm really starting to wonder if there are children buried out in the wilderness on the advice of twi's "leaders" because they were "devil possessed" by spirits of ADHD or autism or schizophrenia or bipolar or whatever. wouldn't surprise me at all at this point.
Woah - back up a minute...
He taped an apology? :blink:
An apology for what, exactly?
Just for his "one-time consensual affair" (gag) or for his behavior over many years? His misleading of people? His wresting of the scriptures? His instilling of fear in who knows how many? The mental / spiritual abuse he put so many through? The policy of "mark and avoid"?
...did I miss something?
And, of course, in spirit of this new openness and (what was it that Ric0 called it?) explanation - this apology is available on the TWI website, yes, so that all who were abused can listen?
it was the "apology" tape where he announced he was stepping down and RR was taking over. yes, it was only for the one-time consensual affair. no, it was not a real apology, it was smoke and mirror show.
however, it was less the tape itself and more the people's acceptance of it that bothered me. I could see the gears grinding in their heads to find a way to justify his behavior. I simply could not.
however, it was less the tape itself and more the people's acceptance of it that bothered me. I could see the gears grinding in their heads to find a way to justify his behavior. I simply could not.
It disturbs me that I was one of the excuse makers back then. I wish I had been braver and honest. But they did set it up so no one had time to process it and give an honest opinion. We heard the tape, then everyone was given a minute to respond. We were assigned turns around the table. We practically congratulated him for being a W**re.
Then it was supposed to be over and done with. No more time spent on it. Whenever one of us peons made even the mildest of errors, we were brutalized, sometimes over and over again. There was always plenty of time to discuss our sins, and we were not given the "under so much spiritual pressure" free pass.
I think it is great that it is clear for you when you started realizing that LCM was really underserving scum as opposed to all the honor and love we were told he deserved as Wierwille's chosen successor.
Personally, I kind of Wonder how much Rosie and her defacto wife rejoice in the fact they put LCM out to pasture and now run the show in TWI. They kind of seem like some freakish, vainglorying, power hungry monsters beneath a thin veneer of biblical respectibility now.
I think love and honor for these scum may very well be the number one cause of people being pulled back into the fold or a splinter group. And to me it seems thet every splinter has some version of dwelling on the best of TWI.
I thought it only took a little leaven to leaven the whole lump?
Dear Potato,
So you realized that while you lived with the repurcussions of much abuse that the real liars and scum were running the TWI show. To me that sounds like a life changing realization.
For whatever it's worth, I had realizations before I got kicked out and lived with much abuse too. I think if I had soundly realized that V.B. of RRF was the scum I know him to be now back then, I may have made it out with less pain.
Daer Watered Garden,
Was the son of yours that also had the sense to help get you out of TWI because he stood up to them too? I seem to remember you sharing something like that before, sorry if I have it wrong.
Dear crystalclearblue,
I bet everyone that spent time in TWI or one of the splinters has similar regrets to the ones you are sharing. I am glad you share them with us, thank you. TWI had to work very hard to keep people from processing stuff, and to me it seems that even the ones who knew much of the TWI evils didn't realize that Top leadership were often scum and their sins should be shouted from the housetops, and IMO, TWI deserved all the censure that we might have possibly been able to even hypothyetically given them.
And as long as an old Wayfer does not realize that Wierwille really was a monster, they will never really have a hold on what really went down at "The Way International.
I"m in a situation where for some of the people that I think about seem to be loyal to a supposed Man of God that I don't believe rates the loyalty.
When I first came here to the Greasespot I faced a couple of things, like a woman telling me what Wierwille did to her, for me that was a clear start of a new perspective for me; that,and realizing that not only did Wierwille simply copy other mens' work in assembling the greatest knowledge (supposedly)since the first century, but many of the things he plagiarized I have come to realize weren't even first rate in the first place.
So since my facing what Wierwille actually did, I have since come to think of him as a sexual predator that was only a second rate hack, biblically speaking.
From what I've read on this forum, the man was clearly a plagiarist, sloppy if not fraudulent researcher, and a sexual predator. Taken together these attributes equal a man zero credibilty. And I'm being nice.
[Full disclosure: I only learned of VPW's existence and TWI's history about 3 months ago. Everything I know about him was either told to me by my ex-Way friend, or I read about here on these boards or various other web sites.]
Wierwille has fallen a long, long way from the heights of his reputation that TWI first showed me how to hold of him in 1982. But the things is, my mistake was in believeing TWI lies and spin in the first place. I believe that Wierwille really, really was a sexual predator and 2nd rate hack. Is it sane at all to believe that he can be soooo scummy and still be the great MOG? I think not!
My ex-Way friend thinks of him as a "great MOG who let his d*ck get in the way."
Of course, she also thinks of Jimmy Swaggart in the same terms. (And, truth be told, I always kinda liked JS myself. He was a colorful guy. I'm not gonna hate him for patronizing a prostitute.)
However, I think my friend is deluding herself about VPW. He sounds like a monster.
THIS INFLUENE OF BLINDLY ACCEPTING SEXUAL PREDATORS AS MOG DID NOT COME FROM GOD, people.
Preach it brother.
It seems to me that some people still believe lying TWI or TWI style spin, after all.
Would it be fair to say that the Way offshoot organizations are like TWI but without the abusive or sexual predation aspect?
Of course, she also thinks of Jimmy Swaggart in the same terms. (And, truth be told, I always kinda liked JS myself. He was a colorful guy. I'm not gonna hate him for patronizing a prostitute.)
Would it be fair to say that the Way offshoot organizations are like TWI but without the abusive or sexual predation aspect?
Even though my impression of the Swaggart affair as heard in the media was such that I can not give him any respect for willingly admitting his faults until he's soooo far over the barrel that finally admitting the truth was nothing more than self-serving damage control....he managed to be far, far more truthful about these things than Wierwille or either of the next two Presidents of The Way International.
And since the offshoot organizations that I have heard of have seemed lacking to be willingly forthcoming about what they participated in and/or lacking in understanding of just how twisted the training was that supposedly gave them the right to lead God's people was I don't think it is fair to say at all that the offshoots are without the abuse and sexual predation aspects of TWI.
As an example of twisted logic IMO I'd offer that even though JL who was deeply involved in CES admitted to multiple affairs it was reported by one of the ladies here that at first he wouldn't admit to any until she "reminded" him of one. (Like he forgot or something....TTHHPPPP) And even after his admition he so regularly spoke of Wierwille fondly as his "Father in the Word" and such things that I can not but wonder what kind of man can consistently praise Wierwille, who so regularly preyed upon, decieved, and harmed others.
how does one see it.. I don't know. I had something like that happen kinda by "accident".. but it really wasn't an accident. I was just ignorant enough to ask a question..
the only thing I can think or say.. *we* (or *I*) only give *them* (he, she, it.. whatever..) only at best the significance that I assign to *myself*..
I dunno.. does this make any sense, or do I need another glass of cabernet..
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OldSkool
that whole man of God concept has been taken so far out of concept that in practice it's really perverse. It implies blind obedience to the directive given. Supported by fallacies like suggestion from leadership is paramount to command. Then you have the army of yes men groomed by the prez herself who give incidents of how they didn't agree with it at first but were humble enough to obey in spite of their reservations...of course in the end they saw how right the leadership was....praise God... People are supposed to mull the advice, take it to the Bible, pray, rely on the spirit of God in them to know if it's right. Not rely on some out of context, Old Testament Theocracy ideal to steer them right.
As for the sexual predator thing?....yeah. I read the depositions from the lawsuit. VP taught LCM who really took it to new heights.
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Broken Arrow
I think this "suggestion of a leader being paramount to a command" stuff was actually a quote from someone else like Napoleon or something. Maybe it was from a book that was popular amongst TWI in the late 70's called "Marine!". Anyone remember? I'm about positive this "insight" didn't originate with Wierwille himself. It doesn't seem that very many insights originated with Wierwille himself.
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JeffSjo
Dear OldSkool,
So did the depositions as concerning LCM's sexual predation coming from VPW's guidance start turning the tables for you, or were other factors more significant to you in terms of coming to new conclusions concerning these men?
I just thought it could be good to hear others share about what got them rethinking loyalties to TWI scum...uh...er...I mean, "top leadership".
For me, realizing the true nature of their character as revealed in their actions makes once believing they were due my unthinking obedience and loyalty harder to take, but I think it is better to know for sure how badly we were taken in by these folks than not knowing what kind of men once held our loyalties.
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OldSkool
It certainly removed them from their undeserved pedestal that I had been taught to keep them on. Especially VPW.
Even though the sexual predation has apparently stopped with LCM, so many other undesirable practices are still going strong with the BOD and their supporters. It took me a few years of being close to them to begin to identify the wrongs. Eventually I ran headlong into them in the form of a series of confrontations. Confrontations that I can without a doubt say I retained the upper hand. My time here at GSC is all about decompression. I need to vent the experiences. Also, I will not keep silent the things that I was exposed too lest by my silence I condone these very things.
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JeffSjo
Some of your expeience seems familiar to me Oldskool. While for me those types of experiences happened in the splinter group "River Road Fellowship" instead of TWI, it seems to me that in many respects my splinter group has simply continued many of the worst TWI practises.
And now even though everybody ackknowledges that mistakes were made many of my old friends don't have a freaking clue how far Barnard pulled them away from honest and transparent ministerial dealings. Currently I have heard some of them are saying Barnard deserves patience, love, and getting God's Word spoken to him. In the mean time he's cut and run taking many of the young women with him along with some of his most pliable cronies, both men and women.
And consequently I've heard some of my old friends saying of me things as, "I can't talk to Jeff and still expect to help people." But it seems to me as one who saw Barnard use some of my old friends to completely screw ME over that I have the right to expect them to be willing to deal with how they treated me while under Barnard's influence. A sound scripture reference seems to me to expect them to win or lose me as a brother according to their willingness to be honest about what happened to me. If it were Barnard expecting as he did to have the man that he spit on apologize for falling asleep and disrespecting his ministry I would know it was a wicked and abusive power play, but since I want to talk with them about how they helped Barnard and were part of me losing my wife and son that I am being reasonable in expecting their forthrightness. GOD WILL JUDGE.
And that while they say they are holding on to things that Barnard did that are far scumier than anything anyone has the courage to share with me so far they simply have been bamboozled into another pointless and false nobility that has been styled after TWI's lockbox. And furthermore, since they refuse to handle these true events with honesty and transparency they simply hide the damage thay have aided Barnard in committing to many individuals and families. And similar to TWI ex-leadership I am fairly certain that they would not be encouraged to be honest as a witness in any kind of lawsuit as is fairly common such as "Estrangement of Affection" and other things.
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cheranne
Throwing this in for those abused by any "mog" or other SCUM.
quiveringdaughters.blogspot.com
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Shellon
Fantastic way she puts this in her blog:
It is a grave disservice to the spirit of a woman when she is given the subtle message that the truth of her own pain is not as important as the reputation of the ones who inflicted it.
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Watered Garden
I think the term "the suggestion of the leader is tantamount to a command" is just military jargon. I heard it in 1974. Problem is, none of these guys is a general, admiral, or even a genuine imperial grand high Poobah.
I escaped abuse by the grace of God, but it does not cease to amaze me how many of these self-proclaimed MOGs get away with this kind of crap. I would love to be a fly on the wall when they are exposed for what they really are.
These jerks have no right to think, speak about, or do anything sexual to anyone but their own spouse. Anything else is sin, and most likely illegal.
WG
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chockfull
What does it take to realize the MOG is really scum?
From my experience, way too d@mn much!!!!!!
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copenhagen
Jeff,
Your question “What does it take to realize the MOG is really scum? “
For me it was when the limb cord called the meeting that LCM had a one-time affair..
I cannot believe I even considered him too be a MOG. LCM put the way household thru hell,
Crazy rants, devils spirits under every rock, genuine spiritual suspicion and lets not forget
his obsession with the old testament that put everyone under bondage and grace was gone.
A one-time affair was all it took for me, time after time, he slandered people and expected everyone to walk a perfect walk like him. I then realized I put him in a place he never should have been. Then I found waydale and the scales fell from my eyes..
From what I have seen, most people who saw LCM fall, still have faith in the way int 100%.
The Fox did a great spin on putting all the blame on LCM and promoting twi as the only place to be tapped in with God. I find it funny because it the court doc’s the Fox knew of LCM’s extra affairs as early as 1996. People in the way want to be blind, they claim to think and be so spiritual but they are blindly following an old lesbian..
Jeff the MOG can be scum, the new leader of the cornfield cult has taken his wife to be her own, and the people cheer. Stupid is as stupid does. Most will never see them for what they are.
Copenhagen
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potato
when LCM's apology tape was played and everyone around me excused his actions. I'd noticed weird behavior in some of the top leadership, almost like they couldn't stand having to put up with lesser beings, and I'd been verbally and emotionally abused to the point I didn't trust anyone anyway, and somehow it hit me that night that lies and excuses were the name of the game in twi.
it still took years to get out. I decided to give RR a chance to make things right. she didn't, so I eased myself out the door still fearing that I was putting my kids' lives at risk.
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Watered Garden
For me it took being told to abandon our son in downtown city where he could become a street child, maybe a whore. That was okay; he was possessed and we could not enter the household of victory whatever the hell they called it with him in tow.
That and LCM portentously announcing on a tape: If you have chronic disease in your life it is because you have chronic sin in your life.
Well excuse me all to hell; Craig. Maybe the chronic disease is MY allergy to YOUR BS!
WG
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Shellon
That was beautiful !
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cheranne
Oh My God!
He said to abandon your child!!!! So.. I wonder how many people down the road before that
were abandoned or given up because of whatever..that is sick sick sick.
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Twinky
Woah - back up a minute...
He taped an apology? :blink:
An apology for what, exactly?
Just for his "one-time consensual affair" (gag) or for his behavior over many years? His misleading of people? His wresting of the scriptures? His instilling of fear in who knows how many? The mental / spiritual abuse he put so many through? The policy of "mark and avoid"?
...did I miss something?
And, of course, in spirit of this new openness and (what was it that Ric0 called it?) explanation - this apology is available on the TWI website, yes, so that all who were abused can listen?
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potato
I'm really starting to wonder if there are children buried out in the wilderness on the advice of twi's "leaders" because they were "devil possessed" by spirits of ADHD or autism or schizophrenia or bipolar or whatever. wouldn't surprise me at all at this point.
it was the "apology" tape where he announced he was stepping down and RR was taking over. yes, it was only for the one-time consensual affair. no, it was not a real apology, it was smoke and mirror show.however, it was less the tape itself and more the people's acceptance of it that bothered me. I could see the gears grinding in their heads to find a way to justify his behavior. I simply could not.
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crystalclearblue
It disturbs me that I was one of the excuse makers back then. I wish I had been braver and honest. But they did set it up so no one had time to process it and give an honest opinion. We heard the tape, then everyone was given a minute to respond. We were assigned turns around the table. We practically congratulated him for being a W**re.
Then it was supposed to be over and done with. No more time spent on it. Whenever one of us peons made even the mildest of errors, we were brutalized, sometimes over and over again. There was always plenty of time to discuss our sins, and we were not given the "under so much spiritual pressure" free pass.
Sure, now I know what I would say.... <_<
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JeffSjo
Dear Copenhagen,
I think it is great that it is clear for you when you started realizing that LCM was really underserving scum as opposed to all the honor and love we were told he deserved as Wierwille's chosen successor.
Personally, I kind of Wonder how much Rosie and her defacto wife rejoice in the fact they put LCM out to pasture and now run the show in TWI. They kind of seem like some freakish, vainglorying, power hungry monsters beneath a thin veneer of biblical respectibility now.
I think love and honor for these scum may very well be the number one cause of people being pulled back into the fold or a splinter group. And to me it seems thet every splinter has some version of dwelling on the best of TWI.
I thought it only took a little leaven to leaven the whole lump?
Dear Potato,
So you realized that while you lived with the repurcussions of much abuse that the real liars and scum were running the TWI show. To me that sounds like a life changing realization.
For whatever it's worth, I had realizations before I got kicked out and lived with much abuse too. I think if I had soundly realized that V.B. of RRF was the scum I know him to be now back then, I may have made it out with less pain.
Daer Watered Garden,
Was the son of yours that also had the sense to help get you out of TWI because he stood up to them too? I seem to remember you sharing something like that before, sorry if I have it wrong.
Dear crystalclearblue,
I bet everyone that spent time in TWI or one of the splinters has similar regrets to the ones you are sharing. I am glad you share them with us, thank you. TWI had to work very hard to keep people from processing stuff, and to me it seems that even the ones who knew much of the TWI evils didn't realize that Top leadership were often scum and their sins should be shouted from the housetops, and IMO, TWI deserved all the censure that we might have possibly been able to even hypothyetically given them.
And as long as an old Wayfer does not realize that Wierwille really was a monster, they will never really have a hold on what really went down at "The Way International.
(edited for spelling)
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soul searcher
From what I've read on this forum, the man was clearly a plagiarist, sloppy if not fraudulent researcher, and a sexual predator. Taken together these attributes equal a man zero credibilty. And I'm being nice.
[Full disclosure: I only learned of VPW's existence and TWI's history about 3 months ago. Everything I know about him was either told to me by my ex-Way friend, or I read about here on these boards or various other web sites.]
My ex-Way friend thinks of him as a "great MOG who let his d*ck get in the way."
Of course, she also thinks of Jimmy Swaggart in the same terms. (And, truth be told, I always kinda liked JS myself. He was a colorful guy. I'm not gonna hate him for patronizing a prostitute.)
However, I think my friend is deluding herself about VPW. He sounds like a monster.
Preach it brother.
Would it be fair to say that the Way offshoot organizations are like TWI but without the abusive or sexual predation aspect?
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waysider
For what I understand, quite a bit of that has carried over to some (I said "some") offshoots, as well.
edit:
Referring to JL's admission of multiple affairs and the Momentus fiasco.
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JeffSjo
Even though my impression of the Swaggart affair as heard in the media was such that I can not give him any respect for willingly admitting his faults until he's soooo far over the barrel that finally admitting the truth was nothing more than self-serving damage control....he managed to be far, far more truthful about these things than Wierwille or either of the next two Presidents of The Way International.
And since the offshoot organizations that I have heard of have seemed lacking to be willingly forthcoming about what they participated in and/or lacking in understanding of just how twisted the training was that supposedly gave them the right to lead God's people was I don't think it is fair to say at all that the offshoots are without the abuse and sexual predation aspects of TWI.
As an example of twisted logic IMO I'd offer that even though JL who was deeply involved in CES admitted to multiple affairs it was reported by one of the ladies here that at first he wouldn't admit to any until she "reminded" him of one. (Like he forgot or something....TTHHPPPP) And even after his admition he so regularly spoke of Wierwille fondly as his "Father in the Word" and such things that I can not but wonder what kind of man can consistently praise Wierwille, who so regularly preyed upon, decieved, and harmed others.
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Ham
I thought of half a dozen sarcastic answers to this..
I'll spare you that..
what I think it comes down to.. one has to see something bigger than *them* or *him* or even oneself..
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Ham
how does one see it.. I don't know. I had something like that happen kinda by "accident".. but it really wasn't an accident. I was just ignorant enough to ask a question..
the only thing I can think or say.. *we* (or *I*) only give *them* (he, she, it.. whatever..) only at best the significance that I assign to *myself*..
I dunno.. does this make any sense, or do I need another glass of cabernet..
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JeffSjo
My time is up in just a few minutes Ham but before I get back online sometime tomorow could you please explain your comment a little for me?
I mean, exactly who sees what as it refers to a factor in helping them see the scumbuckets in charge.
And when you lace you sarcasm with the truth as you see things, your sarcasm can be quite enjoyable IMO. :)
(yep, no surprise, I corrected spelling)
AAAHHHH...Cabernet...that explains it.
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