The Sin @ AI and Resultant Stoning

[sky4it]

The Sin of Adultery and Fornication @ AI And Resultant Stoning.

There is only one single instance that the Old Testament commandment about STONING an adulterous person is recorded. It is recorded in the book of Joshua Chapter 7. So all Israel stoned a man that committed adultery by the name of Achan and he died. It pretty common knowledge that this single Old Testament Law of stoning an Adulterer, that is frequently cited as criticism aimed at God for making a law so severe and resolute, that the people who cite it do it to pick on God. The people that do that kind of stuff, do it and say it because they love to portray the God of the Old Testament as a grumpy old man, even tho he is never grumpy at all, he is simply misunderstood by those who refuse faith towards him.

The only other instance brought up in scripture about stoning is the well known story from John 8: 1-11, wherein a woman was brought to Jesus, caught in the act of adultery, and the scribes and Pharisees brought to Jesus attention that the Old Testament Law required stoning to which Jesus responded, “He that is without sin among you let him cast a stone at her.” It certainly has been my observation, that no other statement by Jesus have more people taken advantage of and used wrongfully, in order to commit and get away with adultery. I was watching that Rock Star , Brett Michaels TV show one time with my wife, and Michaels quoted that phrase that Jesus spoke, as an actual REASON to continue on in his behavior. To Michaels if there is NO accountability for something, that by definition is his REASON TO BEHAVE A CERTAIN WAY. Pathetic.

So anyway, the question has to come up, Why such severe punishment on the one hand, and on the other hand such tolerance? There can be only one answer and that answer is the gift of salvation God offered in the person of his son Jesus Christ. There is absolutely no other answer. This is why it is so dangerous to take advantage of that gift, it is not a gift that keeps on giving. It is a one time gift, given here on the planet on once for one lifetime here, it is not offered anymore else than for a person during one lifetime here. A person with a bad heart would say, “well does that mean everybody can get by with sin for one lifetime all they want?” That is the problem you see, if you think that way you have a bad heart to begin with.

Furthermore it is spoken of specifically that God is going to go back to Old Testament dynamics, if the gift of salvation is not taken seriously. God Almighty had the right to give the gift of salvation in the person of Jesus Christ, and he has the right to take it away. The take away provisions are in Romans Chapter 11, most particularily the last versus. The take away provisions are Romans 11:22 which says, “Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God, on them which fell, severity; but towards thee goodness, IF THOU CONTINUE IN HIS GOODNESS: otherwise thou also shall be cut off. The question then becomes what does continuing in his goodness mean? At a minimum, it does for sure not mean someone has the right, to act and behave like Brett Michaels. It cannot mean that because Michaels is not continuing in God’s goodness at all, in fact, he uses God’s goodness to commit adultery. That is rather astonishing that someone could behave and be that bold. Pathetic. If you had a chance to read the Ozzie Osborne thread, I mentioned on that thread that Led Zeppelin’s Jimmy Page was involved in Satanism. I also mentioned that while involved in it, Page was writing lyrics which didn’t even make the remotest amount of sense. That is the thing about , Satanim, and the Devil, they don’t want anyone to know what they are trying to do, because if you did you would reject it outright as evil and diabolical; then God would win everybody who bothered to give Satan a second look. The lyrics of rock band Rock band Iron Maiden pretty much describe in great detail, what Satan’s plan is and what it looks like. One would think that Iron Maiden focused on prose to lay out the details of Satans plan, because there was no other conceivable way to say it. But don’t take my word for it just google up the text of Iron Maiden’s lyrics and read them yourself. I know what some of you are thinking, your thinking what is the moron sky4it saying now, that Iron Maiden is saved? I don’t have the wherewith all to make that call, that is between God, Jesus Christ and Iron Maiden. Only God Almighty can know what the reason was that Iron Maiden made there lyrics just so. One would think that exposing Satan for what he is, is something that would honor Jesus Christ not diminish him. I did a brief study on the internet on the topic of Iron Maiden and Satanism, most people stated they did NOT view Iron Maiden as a Satanist group. One fellow went so far as to say that Iron Maiden was not anymore of a Satanic rock group, than Frank Sinatra was a Satanic lounge player. Perhaps one illustration will fit the particulars better. It is very well known that former Actress Katherine Hepburn was a well known atheist. But Hepburn was a practicing atheist, she practiced her beliefs in atheism against other people. Iron Maiden does not practice Satanism, in fact here is the quote they had to describe themselves: Q: Are Iron Maiden Satanic? A: “ The answer is no were not.” That was a direct quote from Iron Maiden. Wether someone is a certain thing, has almost at all times to do with wether they practice it or not. Now it might be that ONE or Two members of the band Iron Maiden were Satanists, but this does not appear to be the case, because the answer by Iron Maiden was “The answer is no WERE NOT.” By the word WERE, one can infer that the band member who said it was answering for the entire band.

On one particular occassion, I mentioned that I thought the Old Testament Law of stoning made perfectly good sense to me and should be re-thought out as a viable option. I was basically accused of believing in executing people, and being way overboard and out of line. If you don’t believe me, say it yourself one time, you basically get about the same response one does if they say something nice about Ozzie Osborne. We also know that God had to mean stoning in a literal sense, because you cannot read the story of the sin of AI, or the story that happened around Jesus and take it any other way. The other thing is if your own spouse ever did commit adultery, if they did, you would have a far greater appreciation and wholesome respect for the concept of stoning people for the act of adultery. Jesus himself alluded to that fact when he called married people, “one flesh.” By “one flesh” he means one person, or two people acting as one, so that the sin causes the other party irreplacable damages. One other concept is really important to understand in order to understand the concept of stoning. That is the fact that adultery and fornication are the cause of all manor of sickness and sometimes even death. Its in the bible. It’s New Testament not Old Testament. It says that fornication is a sin against your own body. I Corinthians 6:18 says and I quote, “Flee fornication. Every sin that a man doeth is without the body; but he that committeth fornication sinneth against his own body.” The Apostle Pauls writings basically gave us two things for Christians which were God’s expressed devine will for Christians, “for this is the will of God, even your sanctification, that you should abstain from fornication.” (I Thessalonians 4:3); “In everything give thanks for this is the will of God in Christ Jesus concerning you.” (I Thessalonians 5:18): which fill up Jesus commandment of loving you neighbor as yourself. Can’t have it spelled out any clearer than that. It is also just like I said on the Calvinist thread up and down and side to side: Everything petty much boils down to what people do in there underwear and there own greed, because thanksgiving is an anti dote for greed.

All of this speaks volumes to the fact why some people hate and cant stand the concept of stoning. They can’t stand it because they want to commit the act with impunity. Also, if people know that fornications and adultry causes sickness and sometimes death, it operates perfectly because under those circumstances, nobody should want that kind of risk.(Which means that the concept of stoning is a GRACE driven procedure, just as much at it is a legal one. It only appears legal because people will not or refuse to understand the dynamics of it.) It is also, the very same reason that wholesome sweetheart type of women, simply refuse the gestures of men they think or have reason to think have committed many acts of adultry and fornication. They don’t want to risk there own health away because they understand with such people their health is very much in jeopardy.

Also, the fact that the stoning procedure was only implemented ONE TIME, proves that God is full of hope, love, faith and the generous nature of God. But it also shows the severe side of God, in that, people seeing this happen on ONLY ONE occassion, ought to be enough in that they really should never have to see it again to understand the holy commandment which caused the procedure of stoning to be implemented. The book of Hebrews spells out both sides of the entire matter. The “better way” in the book of Hebrews was the grace way, but only so that people could understand the Law better. In fact the book of Galations indicates if a person refuses the understanding of the grace way, they are not under grace anymore, they are under the Law. A person is justified one time by the free gift, but NOT justified if they refuse to obey the provisions of that gift. Because refusal of it puts a person right back under that Law. That is what the book of Galations, is mostly about. (The book of Romans identifies the same concept and speaks as to how God will deal with people who refuse the Gospel.) Down to earth easy things to grasp, all of it really is. Refusing the grace of the gospel simply means you go out and do what you want, time after time. A perfect example is Rock star Brett Michaels behavior of someone who continually refuses to obey the gospel.

The summary or final conclusion of this matter then is, that Stoning is not Exectution, it was simply a procedure put in place to have the CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL get rid of Sin.

Moreover, some of this stuff tell people also exactly how the Holy Trinity operates. The Holy Trinity is very interesting and very very thorough and efficient.

Edited October 23, 2009 by sky4it

[WordWolf]

The Sin of Adultery and Fornication @ AI And Resultant Stoning.

There is only one single instance that the Old Testament commandment about STONING an adulterous person is recorded. It is recorded in the book of Joshua Chapter 7. So all Israel stoned a man that committed adultery by the name of Achan and he died.

(snip)

Deuteronomy 22:13-27 (KJV)

13If any man take a wife, and go in unto her, and hate her,

14And give occasions of speech against her, and bring up an evil name upon her, and say, I took this woman, and when I came to her, I found her not a maid:

15Then shall the father of the damsel, and her mother, take and bring forth the tokens of the damsel's virginity unto the elders of the city in the gate:

16And the damsel's father shall say unto the elders, I gave my daughter unto this man to wife, and he hateth her;

17And, lo, he hath given occasions of speech against her, saying, I found not thy daughter a maid; and yet these are the tokens of my daughter's virginity. And they shall spread the cloth before the elders of the city.

18And the elders of that city shall take that man and chastise him;

19And they shall amerce him in an hundred shekels of silver, and give them unto the father of the damsel, because he hath brought up an evil name upon a virgin of Israel: and she shall be his wife; he may not put her away all his days.

20But if this thing be true, and the tokens of virginity be not found for the damsel:

21Then they shall bring out the damsel to the door of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her with stones that she die: because she hath wrought folly in Israel, to play the whore in her father's house: so shalt thou put evil away from among you.

22If a man be found lying with a woman married to an husband, then they shall both of them die, both the man that lay with the woman, and the woman: so shalt thou put away evil from Israel.

23If a damsel that is a virgin be betrothed unto an husband, and a man find her in the city, and lie with her;

24Then ye shall bring them both out unto the gate of that city, and ye shall stone them with stones that they die; the damsel, because she cried not, being in the city; and the man, because he hath humbled his neighbour's wife: so thou shalt put away evil from among you.

25But if a man find a betrothed damsel in the field, and the man force her, and lie with her: then the man only that lay with her shall die.

26But unto the damsel thou shalt do nothing; there is in the damsel no sin worthy of death: for as when a man riseth against his neighbour, and slayeth him, even so is this matter:

27For he found her in the field, and the betrothed damsel cried, and there was none to save her.

================================

Deuteronomy 22:13-27 (NASB)

13"If any man takes a wife and goes in to her and then turns against her,

14and charges her with shameful deeds and publicly defames her, and says, 'I took this woman, but when I came near her, I did not find her a virgin,'

15then the girl's father and her mother shall take and bring out the evidence of the girl's virginity to the elders of the city at the gate.

16"The girl's father shall say to the elders, 'I gave my daughter to this man for a wife, but he turned against her;

17and behold, he has charged her with shameful deeds, saying, "I did not find your daughter a virgin." But this is the evidence of my daughter's virginity.' And they shall spread the garment before the elders of the city.

18"So the elders of that city shall take the man and chastise him,

19and they shall fine him a hundred shekels of silver and give it to the girl's father, because he publicly defamed a virgin of Israel. And she shall remain his wife; he cannot divorce her all his days.

20"But if this charge is true, that the girl was not found a virgin,

21then they shall bring out the girl to the doorway of her father's house, and the men of her city shall stone her to death because she has committed an act of folly in Israel by playing the harlot in her father's house; thus (L)you shall purge the evil from among you.

22"If a man is found lying with a married woman, then both of them shall die, the man who lay with the woman, and the woman; thus you shall purge the evil from Israel.

23"If there is a girl who is a virgin engaged to a man, and another man finds her in the city and lies with her,

24then you shall bring them both out to the gate of that city and you shall stone them to death; the girl, because she did not cry out in the city, and the man, because he has violated his neighbor's wife. Thus you shall purge the evil from among you.

25"But if in the field the man finds the girl who is engaged, and the man forces her and lies with her, then only the man who lies with her shall die.

26"But you shall do nothing to the girl; there is no sin in the girl worthy of death, for just as a man rises against his neighbor and murders him, so is this case.

27"When he found her in the field, the engaged girl cried out, but there was no one to save her.

===============================

Edited October 24, 2009 by WordWolf

[sky4it]

Thanks for the post Wordwolf.

I referred to it because it was a SINGLE ACT OF STONING, where the act of stoning an individual occured.

What you posted from scripture was all the various situationals a person might find one self in,and what one should do in those situations: BIG DIFFERENCE.

Edited October 24, 2009 by sky4it

[T-Bone]

The Sin of Adultery and Fornication @ AI And Resultant Stoning.

There is only one single instance that the Old Testament commandment about STONING an adulterous person is recorded. It is recorded in the book of Joshua Chapter 7. So all Israel stoned a man that committed adultery by the name of Achan and he died. It pretty common knowledge that this single Old Testament Law of stoning an Adulterer, that is frequently cited as criticism aimed at God for making a law so severe and resolute, that the people who cite it do it to pick on God. The people that do that kind of stuff, do it and say it because they love to portray the God of the Old Testament as a grumpy old man, even tho he is never grumpy at all, he is simply misunderstood by those who refuse faith towards him.. .

snip

.. . Also, the fact that the stoning procedure was only implemented ONE TIME, proves that God is full of hope, love, faith and the generous nature of God. But it also shows the severe side of God, in that, people seeing this happen on ONLY ONE occassion, ought to be enough in that they really should never have to see it again to understand the holy commandment which caused the procedure of stoning to be implemented. The book of Hebrews spells out both sides of the entire matter. The "better way" in the book of Hebrews was the grace way, but only so that people could understand the Law better. In fact the book of Galations indicates if a person refuses the understanding of the grace way, they are not under grace anymore, they are under the Law. A person is justified one time by the free gift, but NOT justified if they refuse to obey the provisions of that gift. Because refusal of it puts a person right back under that Law. That is what the book of Galations, is mostly about. (The book of Romans identifies the same concept and speaks as to how God will deal with people who refuse the Gospel.) Down to earth easy things to grasp, all of it really is. Refusing the grace of the gospel simply means you go out and do what you want, time after time. A perfect example is Rock star Brett Michaels behavior of someone who continually refuses to obey the gospel.

The summary or final conclusion of this matter then is, that Stoning is not Exectution, it was simply a procedure put in place to have the CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL get rid of Sin.

Moreover, some of this stuff tell people also exactly how the Holy Trinity operates. The Holy Trinity is very interesting and very very thorough and efficient.

The following is from the "Tyndale Bible Dictionary", editors Walter Elwell and Philip Comfort, co.2001, page 336, under the sub topic of "capital punishment" of the main entry "Criminal Law and Punishment" stoning is listed as # 5:

"Stoning was the most common Hebrew death penalty. The first stones were thrown by the prosecution witnesses, who were then joined by spectators. Stoning was the punishment for certain religious offenses (Lv 24:16; Nm 15:32-36; Dt 13:1-10; 17:2-5), adultery (Dt 22:23-24), chilled sacrifice (Lv 20:2), divination of spirits (Lv 20:27), and rebellion (Dt 21:18-21). Before his conversion, the apostle Paul witnesses and consented to the stoning of Stephen (Acts 7:58-59). Paul himself later survived a stoning at Lystra (14:19). In Roman times, a person would occasionally be stoned as he stood on a gallows."

End of excerpt

~~

And from the same book, page 18 & 19 under the main entry "Adultery":

"…Jesus sharpened the OT's definition of adultery by applying it to a man's thought life. Any man who fantasizes in lust (as distinct from being just tempted) has committed adultery in mind and intention, even though there is no physical contact (Mt 5:27-28; cf. Jb 31:1, 9).

The Bible's condemnation of adultery is written into the heart of the OT law, prophecy, and wisdom literature. The Ten Commandments ban it unequivocally (Ex 20:14; Dt 5:18). The prophets list it among offenses that attract God's anger and judgment (Jer 23:11-14; Ez 22:11; Mal 3:5). And the book of Proverbs scorns it as a senseless act by which a man destroys himself (Prv 6:23-35; cf. 7:6-27).

The NT echoes that clear condemnation. Where there is no repentance, adultery excludes those who practice it from God's kingdom (I Cor 6:9). It is the very opposite of love of one's neighbor (Rom 13:9-10), and it stands under the judgment of God himself (Heb 13:4).

In the OT the penalty for adultery is death – for both the man and the woman (Lv 20:10; Dt 22:22). The same applies if the woman is single but engaged to another man, assuming she has not been raped (in which case only the man is to be executed – Dt 22:23-27). The refrain :You will cleanse the land from evil" (Dt 22:24) shows that adultery was considered a serious threat to society's health, not simply an attack on the family lives of the two people involved."

End of excerpt

~~

According to the above references I cited, stoning seems to be a standard procedure in Bible times for a number of offenses and as far as how often it was applied in cases of adultery – familiarity with our sinful human nature would reasonably assume that it was implemented on occasion.

I think stoning IS an execution – capital punishment – the penalty for breaking God's law. It also serves as a deterrent to others who are tempted to commit the same sin. In that regard, it may be considered as one means of getting rid of an instance of sin. The execution of the offender guarantees that person cannot continue to commit further acts of the same crime and the perception of the capital punishment by others usually tends to make that particular crime less attractive to commit.

As I think of capital punishment in general, in the context of our present day I feel no conflict with my belief in a loving AND just God who does forgive and promises hope. If one truly repents of a horribly sin they've committed – I firmly believe God does forgive them. And though they may be now squared away in God's spiritual books – I don't think that would undo any physical consequences of the sin. There is hope for us all - true - and if I've truly repented in this life, there is the future to look forward to, when God restores all things - undoing the consequences of sin, lives injured and destroyed by war, disease, murder, adultery, etc.

If I got drunk, drove my car into the oncoming lane, killing all those in the other car (except for a twelve year old boy who will be quadriplegic for life) as well as my passenger [a lady I've been having an adulterous affair with], shoot and kill several of the police as they show up in response to a 911 call by an eyewitness because I figure they'll arrest me and I'll then lose my job and my wife will leave me – BUT – while in jail I beg God's forgiveness, would that change certain things? It does not bring anyone back from the dead nor completely restore the health & well-being of the 12 year old boy, nor restore my marriage & career to its former state. I think that's a travesty of justice AND love when a person tries to pull the "get-out-of-jail" card with the "God-has-forgiven-me-now-so-you-can-let-me-off-the-hook" mentality - it's basically irresponsible not wanting to face the reality of the consequences of extremely sinful behavior.

[edited for a PG-13 rating ]

Edited October 24, 2009 by T-Bone

[geisha779]

They still have stoning in some countries. . . . a few years ago a 14 year old girl was stoned for falling in love with the wrong boy. Here take a look . . .

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If we are made in the image of God's overflowing mercy and generous love. . . is this what it means to be human?

Jesus. . . . who offered us restorative justice. . . . and came to set it right. . . . while reflecting God's healing goodness. . . already overcame evil with good. . . no?

Edited October 24, 2009 by geisha779

[sky4it]

Geisha

You have to understand WHY God instituted the stoning thing. God instituted it so that he could STOP sin, if God could get sin stopped, then that situation that you mentioned would never have occured. So that, you have to see that the principal of the matter is good, and I know that you know that because you mentioned Jesus came to heal people and make things right with mankind. But Jesus also came to give us an understanding of these Old Testament prinicipals, which he did.

One other important thing Geisha, the bible says God made MAN in his own image, a women is far different in many respects than a man. Men are far more barbaric then women, which is why I personally, find myself less threatened in the presence of a woman.

I suppose there is many many ways to say what I just did, in fact Year 2027, Roy, said it rather eloquently on his thread when he said, God is not a dictator. Thank you Roy.

Edited October 24, 2009 by sky4it

[geisha779]

Geisha

You have to understand WHY God instituted the stoning thing. God instituted it so that he could STOP sin, if God could get sin stopped, then that situation that you mentioned would never have occured. So that, you have to see that the principal of the matter is good, and I know that you know that because you mentioned Jesus came to heal people and make things right with mankind. But Jesus also came to give us an understanding of these Old Testament prinicipals, which he did.

One other important thing Geisha, the bible says God made MAN in his own image, a women is far different in many respects than a man. Men are far more barbaric then women, which is why I personally, find myself less threatened in the presence of a woman.

I suppose there is many many ways to say what I just did, in fact Year 2027, Roy, said it rather eloquently on his thread when he said, God is not a dictator. Thank you Roy.

You did not answer me. Watch the stoning of a beautiful innocent 14 year old girl, by a mob of religious zealots, for the "crime" of falling in love with a Sunni Muslim boy.

Then tell me. . . . is this what it means to be human?

If man is made in God's image and man is barbaric. . . does that make God barbaric?

I know why God instituted harsh punishment in the OT. . . . but, Jesus came to fulfill the law not continue in it. . . . . and God reconciled us unto Himself. . . .brought heaven and earth together in the person of Jesus. It is the GOOD news.

His justice is restorative in Jesus. . . . . We don't stone people. God forgave Paul for murdering Christians. . . . Stephen forgave those who stoned him and the scriptures tell us that Jesus stood for Stephen. Anywhere else you read of Him sitting.

I believe in restorative justice.

BTW. . . I am made in God's image. Female though I am. . . . those verses in Gen have been used to justify slavery, serious misogyny and to subjugate women, but please read any good commentary for a better explanation. If you are interested.

[kimberly]

I can relate to stoned way back when in the early 70's.

But Sky, for real, come on here now, honey. Seriously, don't we have more important, relevant matters to mull over than stoning.....but if it is important to you..... far be it from me....

And since we are talking serious stuff, could you please do some spacing in your posting. My tri-focals get heebie jeebie while trying to read....so I, my eyeballs, give up after the first 700 sentences. I have a collection of rocks.

Thanks love.

[geisha779]

I can relate to stoned way back when in the early 70's.

But Sky, for real, come on here now, honey. Seriously, don't we have more important, relevant matters to mull over than stoning.....but if it is important to you..... far be it from me....

And since we are talking serious stuff, could you please do some spacing in your posting. My tri-focals get heebie jeebie while trying to read....so I, my eyeballs, give up after the first 700 sentences. I have a collection of rocks.

Thanks love.

Actually Kimberly, it is still relevant to people in Iran and some parts of Africa sitting in prison awaiting a sentence of stoning. Very relevant to groups like Amnesty International and Voice of the Martyrs. It should be relevant to us.

Especially when it is a Christian or any woman falsely accused in a Muslim country and she has no access to real defense. It is not unheard of for some countries to hang girls as young as twelve.

Americans live in such a bubble.. . . .

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7708169.stm This 13 year old girl . . . . she died begging for. . . . MERCY. The 23 year old woman was buried up to her

neck in a football stadium and stoned. . . .

Edited October 25, 2009 by geisha779

[sky4it]

You did not answer me. Watch the stoning of a beautiful innocent 14 year old girl, by a mob of religious zealots, for the "crime" of falling in love with a Sunni Muslim boy.

Then tell me. . . . is this what it means to be human?

If man is made in God's image and man is barbaric. . . does that make God barbaric?

I know why God instituted harsh punishment in the OT. . . . but, Jesus came to fulfill the law not continue in it. . . . . and God reconciled us unto Himself. . . .brought heaven and earth together in the person of Jesus. It is the GOOD news.

His justice is restorative in Jesus. . . . . We don't stone people. God forgave Paul for murdering Christians. . . . Stephen forgave those who stoned him and the scriptures tell us that Jesus stood for Stephen. Anywhere else you read of Him sitting.

I believe in restorative justice.

BTW. . . I am made in God's image. Female though I am. . . . those verses in Gen have been used to justify slavery, serious misogyny and to subjugate women, but please read any good commentary for a better explanation. If you are interested.

When the US military forces direct a surgical strike against hostile forces are you then angry? Is your anger intensified when you later find out children died as well? Is this what it means to be human? Who ever said war was humane? Who ever said war could be understood? War and dying is about love, and hate, envy and scorn. Is war about getting rid of all evil in the name of something that is suppose to be humane? Why then is war not humane? If only one child dies in war instead of 5 does that make war more humane? The news media says it does, they say so all the time. They say it when they report a lower death tally then the day before, then having lost less lives people are suppose to rejoice? Speak on tell me then if you have the answer to all these questions? Job 38:2 God provided the answer to this in the form of a question when he said, “Who is this that darkeneth counsel by words without knowledge?” Job did not know the answer why God allowed the things to happen to him that he did. Yet we know that it was not God who ordered the test of Job, but it was Satan. (Job 2:1-7) Satan, put Job in a tough spot with God. Sure God consented to the test, but only because he had something that Job had to learn.

God said of himself, “God is not a man that he should lie niether the son of man that he should repent.”(Numbers 23:19) God was not always a man, but chose to reveal himself as a man so that he could be understood. There fore no God has never been barbaric, but neither could God ever understand how barbaric men can be, this is why he died on Calvary.

You say that you “know why God instituted harsh punishment in the OT???? But you do not say precisely why you know that. Was the harsh punishment for restorative justice? If so then why does justice never conclude itself and men never stop doing evil?

I recognize that as a woman you have been abused, because you say that the whole in God’s image thing, by that you imply that men take advantage of there make up as men to abuse women, , AND YOU ARE CORRECT THEY DO TAKE ADVANTAGE OF THAT. I never said the female sex was lessor, I simply said they were less barbaric then males.

In the book of Job, Job goes through a litany of his personal problems with and about God and God’s treatment of him. Job simply does not understand THAT BIG QUESTION WHY. Job cries out WHY WHY WHY. Then Jobs friends have all the answers even tho there answers are all wrong. Job knows there answers are wrong, Job knows there answers are wrong because they did not understand Job. So what does Job say to his friends and there misplaced judgement on JOB’s life? Job says to them, “I have heard many such things, miserable comforters are ye all.” (Job 16:2) Unless you understand somebody elses circumstances, life, events, and ALL the particulars, all a person is doing is throwing around miserable advice. The advice might well be very comforting, because at least Job wasnt all alone, but it only served to make Job more miserable, THAT NO ONE, NO ONE AT ALL UNDERSTOOD JOB’S PREDICAMENT. Is it not so very unusual for God to teach all mankind that lesson, through troubling times. Notice also that Job said, “I have heard many such things.” By that Job meant he had heard there song and dance and words before. There words made no sense to Job. They didnt make any sense to Job, because Jobs situation was far different then what his friends thought they knew of. Jobs friends were ignorant of his circumstances, because anothers persons sufferings didn’t imact them directly, they were only afraid of the fact that what was happening to Job, could happen to them. That is also why VPW was so huge on dismantling Job, he wanted to deceive people into thinking that they never would have to suffer, so that he could control people at all times.

If my own particular situation were to find some restorative justice, it would be because no one gossiped about me anymore. This is because peoples mouths are the source of all murder. Murder starts from peoples mouths because they exaggerate and lie and leave out details about another person in order to destroy them. This, I think, has always been the truth, always will be too.

I would direct you to prayerful meditation of Psalm 21, which should provide you Geisha with hope and solace and consolation, in all manner of trying circumstances.

BTW, Geisha, nice catch on the Stephen one, I had to go look that one up, sorry I missed it. "and stoned" Act 7:58, however he certainly wasnt stoned for violating any Old Testemant law, so that was a difference.

Hey Kimberly, you called me honey, you know , I dont know what to say sweetness, I like the lovey dovey thing at the end too, thanks sugar plum. Cannot think of anything better to do right now, right here than talk bout stones.

Me

Edited October 25, 2009 by sky4it

[geisha779]

I never said people would not suffer or that God can't use things like suffering for good. I know that He does. My point to you is. . . .

Jesus. . . the express image of God. . . . forgave the woman caught in adultery. . . . He did not pick up stones and throw them at her. . . . He saved her.

It is not your job or mine to cast stones. . . . we are to offer our lives. . . as a witness to that mercy and forgiveness of God bestowed on us through Jesus. . . .furthermore. . . it is not our job to convict people of their sins. . . that is the work of the Holy Spirit.

It IS our part to reflect back to a world filled with pain and sorrow. . . . God's overflowing and abundant love.

We know a man who has AIDS. . . . he lived the life of a promiscuous gay man for many years. That is how he contracted HIV. . . . his words. My son's friends reached this man with the LOVE of the gospel. He has accepted Jesus as savior and is now living a holy life.

What if they had gone to him and said. . . . "Ya know, they used to stone homosexuals in the OT, I think they should do that now." Do you think he would have heard them when they said "God loves you?" NO. He heard them because they reflected back to him the grace and love received in their own lives.

This guy had huge support in the gay community. . . . Elton John is his friend. He had a support system, he wasn't all alone and without help. So, what was it he saw in these KIDS that made him listen? God's love and forgiveness. Unless there is a miracle. . . he will die from AIDS related illness. Still reap the consequences of his lifestyle. . . . but, he is restored.

What does it say to people when Christians lash out in judgmental rhetoric?. . . It says. . . you are NOT welcome here. . . . but, is that really true. . . . didn't Jesus die for we sinners so that we could be restored?

The reason I asked you if that is what it meant to be human. . . is because we ARE made in God's image. . . . we are to be like Him. . . . that is what humanity is. . . . we know Him through Jesus. . . His express image. . . . . . the one who came to reveal Him. Jesus forgave sins. . . knew the human condition. . . . has compassion. . . .is merciful. . . . and loves us. He didn't pick up a stone.

I am sure I went overboard here. . . . but what really bothers me. . . is that Christianity is considered part of the problem. . . when it really is the solution. Saying you think stoning is a good idea. . . . just perpetuates that stereo-type.

Listen to this. . . .

<embed id=VideoPlayback src=http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-3125915108878131468&hl=en&fs=true style=width:400px;height:326px allowFullScreen=true allowScriptAccess=always type=application/x-shockwave-flash> </embed>

Edited October 25, 2009 by geisha779

[Shellon]

Love that, Geisha, thank you !

[Cynic]

Sky4it,

Is your obsession fundamentally about Calvinism (in general)?

Is it fundamentally about the doctrine of unconditional election (in particular)?

Is it fundamentally about professing Christians living licentiously?

Is it fundamentally about a particular adulteress and/or a particular adulterer?

[sky4it]

I never said people would not suffer or that God can't use things like suffering for good. I know that He does. My point to you is. . . .

Jesus. . . the express image of God. . . . forgave the woman caught in adultery. . . . He did not pick up stones and throw them at her. . . . He saved her.

It is not your job or mine to cast stones. . . . we are to offer our lives. . . as a witness to that mercy and forgiveness of God bestowed on us through Jesus. . . .furthermore. . . it is not our job to convict people of their sins. . . that is the work of the Holy Spirit.

It IS our part to reflect back to a world filled with pain and sorrow. . . . God's overflowing and abundant love.

We know a man who has AIDS. . . . he lived the life of a promiscuous gay man for many years. That is how he contracted HIV. . . . his words. My son's friends reached this man with the LOVE of the gospel. He has accepted Jesus as savior and is now living a holy life.

What if they had gone to him and said. . . . "Ya know, they used to stone homosexuals in the OT, I think they should do that now." Do you think he would have heard them when they said "God loves you?" NO. He heard them because they reflected back to him the grace and love received in their own lives.

This guy had huge support in the gay community. . . . Elton John is his friend. He had a support system, he wasn't all alone and without help. So, what was it he saw in these KIDS that made him listen? God's love and forgiveness. Unless there is a miracle. . . he will die from AIDS related illness. Still reap the consequences of his lifestyle. . . . but, he is restored.

What does it say to people when Christians lash out in judgmental rhetoric?. . . It says. . . you are NOT welcome here. . . . but, is that really true. . . . didn't Jesus die for we sinners so that we could be restored?

The reason I asked you if that is what it meant to be human. . . is because we ARE made in God's image. . . . we are to be like Him. . . . that is what humanity is. . . . we know Him through Jesus. . . His express image. . . . . . the one who came to reveal Him. Jesus forgave sins. . . knew the human condition. . . . has compassion. . . .is merciful. . . . and loves us. He didn't pick up a stone.

I am sure I went overboard here. . . . but what really bothers me. . . is that Christianity is considered part of the problem. . . when it really is the solution. Saying you think stoning is a good idea. . . . just perpetuates that stereo-type.

Listen to this. . . .

<embed id=VideoPlayback src=http://video.google.com/googleplayer.swf?docid=-3125915108878131468&hl=en&fs=true style=width:400px;height:326px allowFullScreen=true allowScriptAccess=always type=application/x-shockwave-flash> </embed>

I agree very much with Shellon, that was very well stated by Geisha; And Geisha you did NOT go overboard you merely expressed your heart thank you. I agree with you Geisha that salvation is there for sinners, and the man who had AIDS has need of salvation too.

No Cynic, I am not obsessed with Calvinism, unrepentant Calvinists are obsessed with adultery and fornication, and greed for money and other mens wifes, as witness by the fact they don’t ever think that they have to repent. There salvation plan is UNCONDITIONAL, because they love there sin. Election is based upon making your calling and election sure, as stated by the scripture in Peter that has been quoted over and over again on the bottom of my SIG.

If you want to wander around in the wilderness for 40 years on the road to nowhere that be your business, for the initiated Calvinists to do. Kimberly made me aware of my 700 sentences, Kimberly telling me I have been talking to long. Kimberly is right. You wanna wander around in circles go re-read the Calvinist thread over and over and over. Thats all John Calvin ever was, was big mouth who talked himself and others in nonsensical circles.

I take a lot of heat for trying to help you Calvinists, because other people are saying that I am getting to lengthy. So that, it is a finished matter for me.So I need to stop talking about Calvinism, because if I stop right now the amount of material is understandable and perfect. It’s a perfect point for me to stop. You people have a bible, that bible tells you the truth about what doctines that are wrong and off the wall; and the bible tell you what those doctrines will look and accomplish in deeds , yet you want to demolish the Bible like VPW did for your own greed. I am getting off that bus right now.

Edited October 26, 2009 by sky4it

[GarthP2000]

Sky4it,

... You have to understand WHY God instituted the stoning thing. God instituted it so that he could STOP sin, if God could get sin stopped, then that situation that you mentioned would never have occured.

Hhmmmm, I thought it was only Jesus Christ that was able to stop sin, hmmm?

In any event, I find such reasoning you illustrate here to be totally barbaric and loathsome. Stoning and capital punishment to be valid punishments for adultery/fornication? Feh! <_< I, for one, am glad that we live in a more progressive/advanced/moral society than that, ... _despite_ what the Bible says.

A 'just and righteous God' my foot!

[Cynic]

No Cynic, I am not obsessed with Calvinism, unrepentant Calvinists are obsessed with adultery and fornication, and greed for money and other mens wifes, as witness by the fact they don’t ever think that they have to repent.

You bear false witness, Sky.

There salvation plan is UNCONDITIONAL, because they love there sin.

Scripture portrays election as unconditional (Romans 9:11-24), Sky. Calvinism or sovereign grace theology is characterized by a high view of God’s sovereignty and a low view of man’s ability. Man must repent, but repentance is a sovereign grant of God to man (2 Timothy 2:25), and is not enabled by any ability towards God in man.

Election is based upon making your calling and election sure, as stated by the scripture in Peter that has been quoted over and over again on the bottom of my SIG.

Following are John Calvin’s comments on 2 Peter 1:10-11. Calvin's comments are consistent with a high view of God’s supremacy over the salvation of men, and are inconsistent with the supposed theology of greed (for money and other men’s wives) of your insipid calumnies.

[From Calvin’s commentary on 2 Peter]

10. Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence. He draws this

conclusion, that it is one proof that we have been really elected, and not in

vain called by the Lord, if a good conscience and integrity of life

correspond with our profession of faith. And he infers, that there ought to

be more labor and diligence, because he had said before, that faith ought not

to be barren.

Some copies have, “by good works;” but these words make no change in

the sense, for they are to be understood though not expressed.

He mentions calling first, though the last in order. The reason is, because

election is of greater weight or importance; and it is a right arrangement of a

sentence to subjoin what preponderates. The meaning then is, labor that

you may have it really proved that you have not been called nor elected in

vain. At the same time he speaks here of calling as the effect and evidence

of election. If any one prefers to regard the two words as meaning the same

thing, I do not object; for the Scripture sometimes merges the difference

which exists between two terms. I have, however, stated what seems to me

more probable.

Now a question arises, Whether the stability of our calling and election

depends on good works, for if it be so, it follows that it depends on us.

But the whole Scripture teaches us, first, that God's election is founded on

his eternal purpose; and secondly, that calling begins and is completed

through his gratuitous goodness. The Sophists, in order to transfer what is

peculiar to God's grace, to ourselves usually pervert this evidence. But

their evasions may be easily refuted. For if any one thinks that calling is

rendered sure by men, there is nothing absurd in that; we may however, go

still farther, that every one confirms his calling by leading a holy and pious

life. But it is very foolish to infer from this what the Sophists contend for;

for this is a proof not taken from the cause, but on the contrary from the

sign or the effect. Moreover, this does not prevent election from being

gratuitous, nor does it shew that it is in our own hand or power to confirm

election. For the matter stands thus, — God effectually calls whom he has

preordained to life in his secret counsel before the foundation of the world;

and he also carries on the perpetual course of calling through grace alone.

But as he has chosen us, and calls us for this end, that we may be pure and

spotless in his presence; purity of life is not improperly called the

evidence and proof of election, by which the faithful may not only testify

to others that they are the children of God, but also confirm themselves in

this confidence, in such n manner, however that they fix their solid

foundation on something else.

At the same time, this certainty, mentioned by Peter, ought, I think, to be

referred to the conscience, as though the faithful acknowledged themselves

before God to be chosen and called. But I take it simply of the fact itself,

that calling appears as confirmed by this very holiness of life. It may,

indeed, be rendered, Labor that your calling may become certain; for the

verb poiei~sqai is transitive or intransitive. Still, however you may render

it, the meaning is nearly the same.

The import of what is said is, that the children of God are distinguished

from the reprobate by this mark, that they live a godly and a holy life,

because this is the design and end of election. Hence it is evident how

wickedly some vile unprincipled men prattle, when they seek to make

gratuitous election an excuse for all licentiousness; as though, forsooth! we

may sin with impunity, because we have been predestinated to

righteousness and holiness!

For if ye do these things. Peter seems again to ascribe to the merits of

works, that God furthers our salvation, and also that we continually

persevere in his grace. But the explanation is obvious; for his purpose was

only to shew that hypocrites have in them nothing real or solid, and that,

on the contrary, they who prove their calling sure by good works, are free

from the danger of falling, because sure and sufficient is the grace of God

by which they are supported. Thus the certainty of our salvation by no

means depends on us, as doubtless the cause of it is beyond our limits. But

with regard to those who feel in themselves the efficacious working of the

Spirit, Peter bids them to take courage as to the future, because the Lord

has laid in them the solid foundation of a true and sure calling.

He explains the way or means of persevering, when he says, an entrance

shall be ministered to you. The import of the words is this: “God, by ever

supplying you abundantly with new graces, will lead you to his own

kingdom.” And this was added, that we may know, that though we have

already passed from death into life, yet it is a passage of hope; and as to

the fruition of life, there remains for us yet a long journey. In the meantime

we are not destitute of necessary helps. Hence Peter obviates a doubt by

these words, “The Lord will abundantly supply your need, until you shall

enter into his eternal kingdom.” He calls it the kingdom of Christ, because

we cannot ascend to heaven except under his banner and guidance.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Cynic

[Cynic]

Sky,

By the way, where do you get that there was some adultery-related stoning in the 7th chapter of Joshua.

Achan’s sin involved taking things from Jericho that were to be devoted to destruction.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Cynic

[T-Bone]

Sky,

By the way, where do you get that there was some adultery-related stoning in the 7th chapter of Joshua.

Achan's sin involved taking things from Jericho that were to be devoted to destruction.

Good catch, Cynic !

Just goes to show ya - it's important to check out references.

Ok, back to the drawing board.. . talk amongst yourselves. <_<

[Oakspear]

In my opinion, Jesus' response to a situation that called for stoning, and what God supposedly mandated in the old Testament is good evidence that the OT God & NT God aren't the same deity, or the OT folks attributed to their God their own bloodthirsty leanings. There are acts of God in the Old Testament that we, if we didn't know it was the OT god who called for them, would condemn as horrific. I don't believe in judging certain acts as okay just because someone said that their god came up with them.

[sky4it]

Sky,

By the way, where do you get that there was some adultery-related stoning in the 7th chapter of Joshua.

Achan’s sin involved taking things from Jericho that were to be devoted to destruction.

NO Achan's sin was taking of the accursed thing, which is listed as taking anything that God had cursed for the people of Israel under Old Testament Law. You didn't have to tell me that, I already knew that Calvinists sanctify things God calls accursed. Included in the accursed things, are adultry, fornication, having other Gods besides God before them. Pretty much doing everything that inititated Calvinists in general are all about. We are not just living in just Old Testament dynamics anymore either, rather we are living under that New Commandment of the New Testament. James 2:10 “For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point,he is guilty of all.” VPW be damned, that is what he taught, that the old testament relevance was relegated to the back seat of his car. Odd, that someone who was a TWI person, cannot sniff out that.Never found a bible verse yet that a Calvinist couldn’t circumvent. Uhh gee lets see here, the cursed things are listed in Dueteronomy 27:15-26, Apparently good ole Achan at least had a thing for his mother in law. That would be verse 23. Yeah, uh you really hitched Calvinism to a winner there huh! Ah ah ah ah what that in verse 21 no beastiality? Shame on Achan, poor ole Achan, I guess nobody ever told him about that one. Yep, leave it to a Calvinist to portray Achan as a ‘good ole boy’. Even tho, taking of the accursed thing, is pretty much the worst person one could ever find. Calvinism, puts the morale imperative of fulfilling Gods commandments on God, not man, at least to the inititated Calvinist. If you don’t believe that one is true, just try and ask good ole Achan someday. Achan he is a aching with that one.

As far as your other words go Cynic, its replete with excesses, the same kind of excesses that people like VPW and Daniel Dennett are well accustomed too. John Calvin always made his bed in bad company. If you have anymore curve balls you feel someone should field, the Calvinist thread is more than sufficient, as well as all the “other scriptures”, that II Peter :16 speaks volumes too, enough is enough.

Gods unconditional plan of salvation, was instituted for only one lifetime. One lifetime is the condition for that plan of salvation. Period. Otherwise there would be no need to institute the provisions of returning to Old Testament Law, returning back to the Jews for understanding what the scripture meant. This is all very very clear from the scriptures because of the out provisions God ascribed to himself in Romans 11:13-36. The severity of God provisions were instituted by God, because he knew mans twisted nature was of that to disobey the gospel. The severity of God provisions in force are Romans 11:21, which read, “ For if God spared not the natural branches take heed lest he also spare not thee.” It couldnt be more clear than that. And the natural branches are Israel, which places Jews, not Gentiles in charge of the things of God. Particularily the ordinances and commandments of God. This is all very old well known material. Furthermore, the Jews, never tolerated that sin that Calvinists love, that is sin is adultery and fornication. The Jews questioned Jesus about it and idealized that they might be able to twist it, but they never once doubted God’s Almighties sincerity of intent with what the law spoke to do on the matter. The didn’t question the Almighties intent, because they knew the law was righteous in all its dealing with them. Jewish people know this, in fact, true Jewish people God has written it on there hearts. You can find that in the bible too. Romans 11:26, “And so all Israel shall be saved....” All Israel, constitute all those who God has written his commandments on there hearts.

I think I am just going to do what the bible says to do with here say, leave it where it is and say no more. The bible is a document of the truth and the facts and defends itself to those who dont wrest with it. Employ a bible verse to defend the Gospel, That would be II Peter 3:16 , “ Also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things, in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.” That is a really nice scripture there that talks about “other scriptures.” That is because every last one of those scriptures actually counts. Is now listed on my SIG.

Blessed be, the Lord God, the God of Israel, who only doeth wonderous things, who only doeth wonderous things oh blessed be, his glorious name for ever..... It a well known song. One they sang and danced to because of God Almighties glorious majesty. Israel danced that is who, they danced because he gave them all he had, and protected them too.

Edited October 27, 2009 by sky4it

[Cynic]

NO Achan's sin was taking of the accursed thing, which is listed as taking anything that God had cursed for the people of Israel under Old Testament Law. You didn't have to tell me that, I already knew that Calvinists sanctify things God calls accursed. Included in the accursed things, are adultry, fornication, having other Gods besides God before them. Pretty much doing everything that inititated Calvinists in general are all about.

Ihe word accursed that appears in the KJV sometimes has the meaning of devoted to destruction. The renderings of various Bible versions of Joshua 6:17-7:1 that appear at the following link show this:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joshua%206:17-7:1&version=ESV;ASV;YLT;NIV;KJV

Achan’s sin was taking things that God had commanded to be destroyed. Specifically, Achan took a garment, 200 shekels of silver, and a 50-shekel-weight bar of gold.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joshua%207:19-23&version=ESV;ASV;YLT;NIV;KJV

Again, the 7th chapter of Joshua does not indicate that Achan was stoned for committing adultery, or that he committed adultery.

Edited October 27, 2009 by Cynic

[T-Bone]

I think it's admirable for a person to admit they don't know what they're talking about. I do it all the time. :B)

[Cynic]

Ihe word accursed that appears in the KJV sometimes has the meaning of devoted to destruction. The renderings of various Bible versions of Joshua 6:17-7:1 that appear at the following link show this:

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joshua%206:17-7:1&version=ESV;ASV;YLT;NIV;KJV

Achan’s sin was taking things that God had commanded to be destroyed. Specifically, Achan took a garment, 200 shekels of silver, and a 50-shekel-weight bar of gold.

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=joshua%207:19-23&version=ESV;ASV;YLT;NIV;KJV

Again, the 7th chapter of Joshua does not indicate that Achan was stoned for committing adultery, or that he committed adultery.

Actually, I was incorrect. The silver and gold were to be brought into the treasury of the Lord, rather than devoted to destruction. Among the things that Achan took, it appears only the garment would have been subject to the command of destruction.

[sky4it]

I tried telling you this on at least one other occassion Garth, but I think you werent reading what I wrote and you were more content to read what I wrote to poke holes in it. I will try it one more time, to see if you can see it more clearly:

Sky4it,

Hhmmmm, I thought it was only Jesus Christ that was able to stop sin, hmmm?

Uhh Stop sin no, cant be done because man has a free will to do whatever he wants, otherwise that would be slavery and God is about freedom. BTW, Garth, the Calvinists try to place Gods will (predestination) sanctimoniously in place of their will, in order to circumvent their own will and there sinful ways. But the Bible teaches man is responsible for accepting salvation, so as not to sin again. It is a one lifetime, free gift, so that sin ought to have been stopped right there. Which brings us to number 2) but forgive sin so that people will Stop sinning, YES of course, it must make sense by now.

In any event, I find such reasoning you illustrate here to be totally barbaric and loathsome. Stoning and capital punishment to be valid punishments for adultery/fornication? Feh! <_< I, for one, am glad that we live in a more progressive/advanced/moral society than that, ... _despite_ what the Bible says.

Then, somewhere along the line you missed the reasoning. You know you athiests are always so big on INGNORANCE, but you ignore EVERYTHING that doesnt reason itself out to your own self satisfaction.

Who ever said that it was God’s will to make man in his own image? It couldn’t have been, otherwise he would not have been grieved after he did it. (See Genesis 6:6, And it repented the Lord that he had made man on the earth, and grieved him at his heart.) So then, you say to yourself, shouldn’t God have told MEN, not to “go for it?” He did, he did tell them not to do it. (In fact he told them if they did it they would end up dying because of it) When? In Psalm 82:6,7 that is when. (You know, that bible verse that when Jesus quoted just about got him murdered?) Are we waking up yet Garth? Do we remember now? I tell you what Garth, for old time sake, I will quote it again for you, here it is, “I have said you are Gods and all of you are children of the most High, but you shall DIE like MEN and fall like one of the princes.”

You have to understand Garth that that bible verse was never spoken from Genesis until the book of Psalms. It was quoted as a direct reference as something that was spoken a long time before all of that. Why? Because the ones who wanted to be men were his children (That is precisely what the bible verse says, that they were “children of the most high”, for whatever reason they were not content any longer being children and wanted to be men, that is why, and they wanted to become in the image of God, a man, so that they could swipe, steal and take the Kingdom by force from God. That is the story that Jesus tells.) Ok then, so now lets go grab the story that Jesus tells to prove all of that, that the record is in the Bible. (Mark 13:34-36) “As a man taking a far journey” GO read it yourself..... and Mathew 21:33-38, “went into a far country”, “SO WHEN THE HUSBANDMEN SAW THE SON, THEY SAID AMONGST THEMSELVES, THIS IS THE HEIR, COME LET US KILL HIM AND LET US SEIZE UPON HIS INHERITANCE, AND THEY CAUGHT HIM AND CAST HIM OUT OF THE VINEYARD AND SLEW HIM........”

Be sure to read the rest of it too Garth, it all fits perfectly together.

A 'just and righteous God' my foot!

Ahh lets see Garth, you have a book called the bible, which basically is all about justice and righteousness, and because you think it is the opposite of that your correct? That’s inexcusable. Ahh, and don’t forget Garth, the DON’T FALL ASLEEP ON THE JOB PROVISIONS OF THE NEW TESTAMENT. Its all in there for the understanding.

So if you put your best foot forward Garth, you will get it now. Problem is, you start telling people and quoting them the record, and they aint going to like you for it, because they want to be ignorant of the record, it’s the only way that they justify and continue there behavior. You start telling them what really happened and they will call you an idiot, a moron and everthing else. Gee, telling people the truth today, its just great fun, isnt it Garth?

You know what your problem is Garth? Your problem is that VPW so polluted your reading of the Bible, that you think you know everything that could possilby jump out of the Bible at you. You think you have all of that stuff down because VPW deceived you into believing exactly that, when he pretty much said, if you listen to VPW, you don’t need to listen to anyone else baby. And the problem with that Garth, is that, it was all a whole lot simpler than VPW ever said. VPW had to, like John Calvin, be lengthy to pollute the simplicity of the message. He did that deliberately to deceive people. Another lengthy story teller, who is VPW and John Calvin like, is atheist Daniel Dennett, which I went into in some detail a few paragraphs from now.

Here is one more king size King Solomon like gold nugget for thought. I Peter 2:4, “To whom coming, as unto a living stone, disallowed INDEED OF MEN, but chosen of God and precious.”

It’s well known that Christ was the living stone, the corner stone. Notice it says disallowed indeed of MEN. It doesn’t say disallowed of women. Men disallow it, because when they became a man, and.... THEY COULD NOT KEEP THE COVENENT OF WHAT IT MEANT TO BECOME A MAN. That would be all those covenents that God made with man from Noah down through the ages. Notice also the perfect word placement and format of the word INDEED. Men, disallowed the deeds (that is the placement of the word indeed) of the living stone ie(Christ) WHY? Because they cant be a man and get it right that is why. Thus, they have to disallow the deeds of a man who did it right and correct and who can be a man correctly.

You know Garth, I can’t keep doing this stuff much longer. It feels like your hacking on me. If you keep an open mind and chew on the Words of God, you will understand why it is things are like the way they are.

Also you have realize Garth, that aheists know all of this, mostly in back seats of where they are trying to park their dicks, that is why they cannot stand the gospel. Now I realize as a former TWI member, you are more eloquent about it, but true athiests are not eloquent at all about it. Furthermore, athiests don’t want to allow the truth of Gods word, into there collective memory, because its too painful for them to see themselves standing in Gods shoes, in his image, and not being able to do that without sinning. Thats why athiests at all times must collectively sack the concept of God. Lastly, as a man myself, it certainly give me no great pleasure to tell you this undeniable truth. The problem is Garth, some of God’s children wanted to try it, and God let them, with a warning that they would die. They went anyway, despite the advanced notice. Now God provided them with a plan of salvation, which plan of salvation, is not offered forever and ever. It has an end, and that day is approaching.

I wouldn’t worry about it too much Garth, at least not yet, at least your not a female trying to act like a male whose name is Tommy Lee Jones.

You have to understand Garth, that the Leprechauns and Satans master plan is too turn everyone into a man, then there would be no woman left for a good man to have. This is why the Leprechauns are so in love with other mens butts. I know that you will laugh about that and not think I am serious. But I am serious Garth, and I mean it. Leprechauns find no worth about sex if it isnt anything that isnt another mans butt.

Lastly what does all this say about women? It says plenty. A Woman, who has NO urge to be a man, is the sweet nectar of this life. Pretty hard to imagine how intolerable this life would be without women who are here to show kindness and love. Now you said Garth, that stoning was “barbaric” and” loathsome” and you said it was not progressive and did not advance society. What you fail to realize Garth, is that a soceity where men are ruling is barbaric and loathsome, because men are more barbaric because they don’t want God and many of them do not want Gods plan. Simple stuff really.

This will help you sort and sift it out better Garth. There actually was a plan, to subvert and overthrow Gods Kingdom. Here is part of that plan. “We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.” They say “endowed by there creator also, to act as if this was GODS PLAN. Just because they can say “endowed by their Creator, doesnt mean God endowed upon them what they presume to have. It never was Gods plan. It was mans plan and God only went along to reveal his plan of salvation in the interim, subjecting the entire world populace to it and hoping that they would accept it. The bible says exactly that. “For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who has subjected the same in hope.” Romans 8:20 The creature was subjected in the hope, that man would accept or adopt the concept of salvation. You kind of have to read all those verses in Romans 8, to get the point. More importantly it is because of HOPE that we are saved. The bible says precisely that in Romans 8:24, “For we are saved by HOPE,” The problem is that the hopeful message of salvation is purposely rejected when men go back and repeat there lives. This is why at the end of this writing, I describe mans situation with God, at best being very precarious. Man is not entitled to a life of sin, even if man thinks that it is liberty. They say it is SELF EVIDENT, that is a lie, there is absolutely nothing SELF EVIDENT ABOUT mans entitlements to whatever he wants be listed as a liberty. The whole entire plan, was to throw the Immortal God out of his kingdom, in the name of what man called a self evident truth. It was brutal deception, from the start to toss God out of his house, and take everything he ever created and had. If that isnt evil and diabolical nothing else ever will be. The goofy thing is Garth, is that it is pretty much over. Gods not going to let them back in his house because if he did, they would try to fly there flag there all over again. He might give some of them visitation rights, but that will be about it.

There is actually a reason for the seperation clause in the consitution, is about trying to sack God. They wanted the bible and God, off on the side, where if they needed him in the future they could revisit it as a viable issue. Proof? The term self-evident, is the term they used to oust God, its also the term atheists love to lie about. They lie about it because God said the invisible things from creation are clearly understood (they are self evident) see Romans 1. Here is precisely how they sacked God with the term self evident: They had a dick, and they had a wish, the wish was what they called self evident, that is too say, they can do whatever they want with there dicks because that is “self evidently” pursuit of happiness. It doesnt get any clearer than that. You say well, how do you know athiests had anything to do with the Consititutution? You know because atheists like Daniel Dennett, who wants to relegate God a role of Santa Claus, is living in the US of A. Dennett actually calls God Santa Claus, and says your deluded if you believe in him. Dennett calls God Santa Claus and you deluded if you believe in him, because Daniel Dennett cannot string together a few pages of a book that are not by themselves a delusion. Here is one of Daniel Dennett quotes from his book Darwins Dangerous Idea:

“The kindly God who lovingly fashioned each and every one of us and sprinkled the sky with shining stars for our delight -- that God is, like Santa Claus, a myth of childhood, not anything a sane, undeluded adult could literally believe in. That God must either be turned into a symbol for something less concrete or abandoned altogether.”

This man at times cannot string together a few sentences that make any sense whatsoever. This is why Dennett chooses run on sentences over fact, it’s the only way Dennett can hide his own evil mind. Notice that Dennett, says in pun form that God fashioned each and everyone of us, only later to discard and discredit it a childhood myth. The only reason for making a pun fly and then to discard it later, is that Dennett doesn’t even believe his own lies anymore, that is how deluded Dennett has become. Dennett, actually fosters his own conclusions by reveling in his own lies. Dennett actually constructs huge run on sentences, then acts as if he is dumbstruck by the sheer magnitude of his own intellectual capacity. While reveling in his own intellect, your supposed to be dumbstruck too by the marvelous intellect of Daniel Dennett, its sheer unadultered insanity to even try to figure out, the brain waves of a man like Daniel Dennett.(This is precisely what Dennett said, that the concept of God, is “not anything a sane undeluded adult could literally believe in.” If it is not sane to believe in it, why on earth would Dennett want to discuss an insane thought? Because he knows that God is true, that is why. So he has to revel in his own disbelief to impress everyone) Would somebody get this guy a straight jacket? I have never actually seen someone who can do that and get by with it in public, that is how bizarre Daniel Dennett has become. And to see someone who can actually talk that way holding a Professorship at a University is something else. A Holloween and cape and gown act has arrived at the University of Tufts when Daniel Dennett came to town. He does it because he wants to cheat God, he does it for a show and so he can be a big shot. Daniel Dennett simply does it because he believes it will work, and he can win and he can call all the shots on what God should have the right to and what God should not have the right too. If this were not true, the United States of America wouldnt so much as allowed Daniel Dennett and his tribe of evolutionary lying tale bearers, to put a sole of his foot on the ground of the USA. The United States of America allowed it in the country because they wanted, what Daniel Dennett and his evolution animal patrol had started, they wanted it completed. Daniel Dannett’s chief method of operating against God, is to try to sound smarter than God. He does this by repeated long sentences, which are constructed in a way to confuse and deceive the reader. It’s deliberate of Dennett to do this. Dennett beleives if he can sound smarter than God, well then he has beat God. But that is not the truth, The truth is what the gospel says about the record itself. The bible says that it is so easy to understand, a child could understand. (Remember that bible verse, out of the mouth of babes and sucklings thou has perfected praise?) It is that way purposefully, wonderfully, so that no one can claim ignorance and miss it. They wanted to rob the bible and God of every last soul God ever had. And that’s good and honest reason for the cult called Athiesm anyway. Somebody gave em a cult nickname, they call em Darwiniacs. Ahem, I salute the person who did that.

Oh and don’t forget, Jesus Christ destroyed the idea of death 2000 years ago, when he prophesied dying on a cross, “It is finished.” What was finished? Well sin was suppose to be finished of course, unless men wanted to KEEP ON SINNING. 2,000 years later, nothing has changed except that those that wanted it that way still have there boots off in other womens houses and are still a sinning, and they are going to be left behind, as in left behind to there own deception and there own country and booted out of Gods kingdom.

I am even hanging on to that bible verse, spoken by Jesus just before his cruxifiction that lets me engage in just enough of my own barbarism., you know the right kind of barbarism the kind you do to protect yourself. You know the kind of protection a person such as myself needs when you cant get protection any way else. You know this one here: Luke 22:36

Here is one that might provide a little comic relief: You know Actress Sharon Stone, her last name is Stone after all, perhaps she will do a fly by and let us know, if carrying around a handle like Stone has been a major insult to her all of her life. I personally doubt it. When you look as sweet as she does, reality is that her name probably is only an insult to any guy who thought stoning was all that difficult. Hey wait a minute that sounds like me. I guess that might mean she would want to hire me to protect other men from her name. Ahh at last a job I would like.

To the darling Actress Sharon Stone, it’s a Nelly Kelly Dilemma thing, yeah honey, and I want a chance to miss you too:

“No matter what I do, all I think about is you, even when I am with with my boooooo,,,, yah know I am crazy over you..................... And its more than you’ll ever know, its for sure, you can always count on my love forever more..............................

Thats what happens when you love baby, its pure poison.

I hope guys don’t go getting all frustrated over the music, Its not like I posted that song by Nellie Its getting hot in here so take off all your cloths, in here, now that would have been just plain wrong.

The skinny or the upshot of the entire matter written about here, is that man’s position with God right now, right at this point in time is very PRECARIOUS. It is precarious because man is engaging in behavior that God never created or intended him for. That is why there is all the uncertainty surrounding mans eternal existence.

The problem is in telling this story of the truth, if I don’t tell it just right, well then, I have to tell it all over again, to make it make better sense. So I added some onions and cheese on it, to make it more palatable, more easy to understand. I did that only only only so that the real truth of the what is really going on will be more easily read, more easily understood, more easily tolerated.

Hope all of this helps.

Edited October 27, 2009 by sky4it

[T-Bone]

The Sin of Adultery and Fornication @ AI And Resultant Stoning.

There is only one single instance that the Old Testament commandment about STONING an adulterous person is recorded. It is recorded in the book of Joshua Chapter 7. So all Israel stoned a man that committed adultery by the name of Achan and he died. It pretty common knowledge that this single Old Testament Law of stoning an Adulterer, that is frequently cited as criticism aimed at God for making a law so severe and resolute, that the people who cite it do it to pick on God. The people that do that kind of stuff, do it and say it because they love to portray the God of the Old Testament as a grumpy old man, even tho he is never grumpy at all, he is simply misunderstood by those who refuse faith towards him.. .

[snip]

.. .The summary or final conclusion of this matter then is, that Stoning is not Exectution, it was simply a procedure put in place to have the CONGREGATION OF ISRAEL get rid of Sin.

Moreover, some of this stuff tell people also exactly how the Holy Trinity operates. The Holy Trinity is very interesting and very very thorough and efficient.

Sky,

By the way, where do you get that there was some adultery-related stoning in the 7th chapter of Joshua.

Achan's sin involved taking things from Jericho that were to be devoted to destruction.

Actually, I was incorrect. The silver and gold were to be brought into the treasury of the Lord, rather than devoted to destruction. Among the things that Achan took, it appears only the garment would have been subject to the command of destruction.

.. . [snip]

The skinny or the upshot of the entire matter written about here, is that man's position with God right now, right at this point in time is very PRECARIOUS. It is precarious because man is engaging in behavior that God never created or intended him for. That is why there is all the uncertainty surrounding mans eternal existence.

The problem is in telling this story of the truth, if I don't tell it just right, well then, I have to tell it all over again, to make it make better sense. So I added some onions and cheese on it, to make it more palatable, more easy to understand. I did that only only only so that the real truth of the what is really going on will be more easily read, more easily understood, more easily tolerated.

Hope all of this helps.

Other than flitting about on a myriad of subjects it looks like the biggest problem in telling your story is getting the facts right – as Cynic pointed out.