I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 1 Co 5:9
I guess sects whose top leadership have twisted, abusive, predatory, and systematized sex as TWI should have been easy to deal with after all, huh? But even folks who saw these things up close seemingly fell for the imaginary spirituality that TWI still promotes. LEADERS!? Hah, we shouldn't ever have even hung around them scripturally.
But even if sex is not a particular sect's issue, will not the Lord judge any group who substitute carnal loyalty for spirituality?
Sunday evening I watched the MSNBC special they're doing on Cults; this time it was Branch Davidians, David Koresh
We'll remember they were in Waco, Texas and after a 51 day standoff with ATF, FBI and others, their compound was destroyed along with many lives, including Koresh.
The man believed he was "allowed" any and all women he chose, one of his wives was 14, the daughter of another follower who surrendered her child to him without pause.
The gentleman they were interviewing on the show spoke of Koresh manipulating the scripture "any way he chose for any purpose" and of course this meant to meet his sexual needs as well.
Koresh would take the scriptures about annointing the head of the man of God with oil to twist it into saying it meant the head of the man of God's penis and the oil was the physical releasing of "oil" of a woman's body during sexual intercourse.
I bet Wierwille's justifications were just as sickening darlin.....
But it seems to me that some sect leaders relish the absolute authority and potential for abuse that the position offers.
But if Paul warned the Corintians and Apollos (who was a much less sickening man than Koresh or Wierwille) for the results of carnality in how folks relate to a genuine minister as Apollos (Paul's sentiment not mine) imagine how much trouble these sickening pervs are in, who do such things in God's name.
Such abuses make it seem that how I refer to God's garbage fire is appropriate.
Koresh would take the scriptures about annointing the head of the man of God with oil to twist it into saying it meant the head of the man of God's penis and the oil was the physical releasing of "oil" of a woman's body during sexual intercourse.
Sickened me then and yet.
Oh, I can just hear VP saying something like this.-------followed by, "You'll just have to trust me on this."
Sunday evening I watched the MSNBC special they're doing on Cults; this time it was Branch Davidians, David Koresh
We'll remember they were in Waco, Texas and after a 51 day standoff with ATF, FBI and others, their compound was destroyed along with many lives, including Koresh.
The man believed he was "allowed" any and all women he chose, one of his wives was 14, the daughter of another follower who surrendered her child to him without pause.
The gentleman they were interviewing on the show spoke of Koresh manipulating the scripture "any way he chose for any purpose" and of course this meant to meet his sexual needs as well.
Koresh would take the scriptures about annointing the head of the man of God with oil to twist it into saying it meant the head of the man of God's penis and the oil was the physical releasing of "oil" of a woman's body during sexual intercourse.
Sickened me then and yet.
Oh, I can just hear VP saying something like this.-------followed by, "You'll just have to trust me on this."
"Sects, Lies & Videotape" although after considering the subliminal messages in vp's classes, I think the original title of "Sex, Lies & Videotape" would do just fine.
Does anyone else thin this section in Corinthians is amazing if applied to a sect filled modern Christianity as I do.
I think it is amazing to consider that what Paul revealed to the Corinthians applies to each and every denomination and sect in Christianity. The Lord will judge them all.
What I wonder sometimes is how is it that so many of the individuals in sects of every kind think that all the others are going to hell!? I think that if anyone swings too far to one side of the pendulum they may think everyone but the folks in their own sect will burn.
And at the other side of the pendulum IMO is assuming that we all should get along because the Lord will accept all sects.
Paul runs right down the middle between these extremes IMO.
But I find it fascinating that Paul, Peter, and Apollos were ministers and the Corinthians were fighting each other because of percieved differences, pride, just generally being puffed up name droppers, but maybe some genuine issues too, I cannot say for sure.
Paul's warning to the other builders was "Take heed how you build" and then explaining how the Lord's fire would burn all the flamables in His day. I bet Apollos had a lot to consider when he considered how the Corinthians related to him, an eloquent, educated, believing Alexandrian Jew. I'm thinking that the next time Apollos saw people getting puffed up because of him he knew how to help the churches stop their carnality. After all...he got to witness Paul, the wise master builder deal with carnal, divisive loyalty to even good ministers in Corinth.
(Edited for spelling and grammar)
(added in editing)
I think the opposite of Paul's example is when carnal leadership seeks to build their own power base and tries to carve out their own circles of influence after the founders death. They prove that they are far, far worse than minister wannabes. They then are the blind leading the blind into a ditch or wolves in sheep's clothing seeking to make prey of the Lord's flock.
Does anyone else think this section in Corinthians is amazing if applied to a sect filled modern Christianity as I do?
Yes.
I think it is amazing to consider that what Paul revealed to the Corinthians applies to each and every denomination and sect in Christianity. The Lord will judge them all.
What I wonder sometimes is how is it that so many of the individuals in sects of every kind think that all the others are going to hell!? I think that if anyone swings too far to one side of the pendulum they may think everyone but the folks in their own sect will burn.
And at the other side of the pendulum IMO is assuming that we all should get along because the Lord will accept all sects.
Paul runs right down the middle between these extremes IMO.
But I find it fascinating that Paul, Peter, and Apollos were ministers and the Corinthians were fighting each other because of percieved differences, pride, just generally being puffed up name droppers, but maybe some genuine issues too, I cannot say for sure.
Paul's warning to the other builders was "Take heed how you build" and then explaining how the Lord's fire would burn all the flamables in His day. I bet Apollos had a lot to consider when he considered how the Corinthians related to him, an eloquent, educated, believing Alexandrian Jew. I'm thinking that the next time Apollos saw people getting puffed up because of him he knew how to help the churches stop their carnality. After all...he got to witness Paul, the wise master builder deal with carnal, divisive loyalty to even good ministers in Corinth.
(Edited for spelling and grammar)
(added in editing)
I think the opposite of Paul's example is when carnal leadership seeks to build their own power base and tries to carve out their own circles of influence after the founders death. They prove that they are far, far worse than minister wannabes. They then are the blind leading the blind into a ditch or wolves in sheep's clothing seeking to make prey of the Lord's flock.
A little hobby of mine is reading different systematic theologies. Something that occurred to me after thinking about this thread is that the more detailed we get in articulating the different topics of our faith, it seems there's more material to polarize folks – differences are fostered – and small issues begin to loom large. Differences of opinion is not a bad thing – I just think it can get ugly like Jeff said – one group damning all other groups to hell; or thinking their bundle of doctrines is superior. Been there, done that.
Considering the fact that the New Testament documents emerged quite a number of years after the birth of the Church, it seems reasonable to assume one of the reasons for the rapid and unified growth of the Church early on was the lack of some cumbersome formalized theology. It's just a guess – just thinking as a technician now: simple is usually the best way to go – it's efficient and there's a lot less that can get screwed up. I think it was FF Bruce's book "Jesus: Lord & Savior" that points out the only two things the early Church preached were Jesus is Lord and that He was raised from the dead.
Like I said checking out systematic theologies is a hobby of mine. And I'm just as guilty as anyone in maintaining a tight hold on my pet doctrines. I think that's why I like Grease Spot. Not only for the eye-opening diversity of viewpoints but also for the subtle challenge that presents itself to me – just how essential is this or that to my theology? And more importantly – what is the practical consequence of it? I have to admit – since I've joined Grease Spot I've gotten more comfortable with holding a lot of my belief system in a state of flux. I don't belong to some local church – so there's no pressure to kowtow to some leader or creed [i'm kinda done with that if you haven't noticed already]. Yup – got my own sect now. A force of one. The mission of my sect? It's to figure out what God wants me to do since I fled from that Mickey Mouse sect based out of New Knoxville. It's a lifetime journey [said in my best Forrest Gump].
I'm through with using my pet theology as a litmus test for evaluating others. Been there, done that too. Other than coming to Grease Spot and spewing out my screwy 2 cents on things, I don't spend a whole lot of time talking about Bible stuff with folks I meet. Guess that's why I come to Grease Spot.
What I wonder sometimes is how is it that so many of the individuals in sects of every kind think that all the others are going to hell!? I think that if anyone swings too far to one side of the pendulum they may think everyone but the folks in their own sect will burn.
And at the other side of the pendulum IMO is assuming that we all should get along because the Lord will accept all sects.
I know this thread is not about hell, but I thought you might enjoy this. . . . the idea of hell within the western church. . . . where it comes from. . . . and how it might differ from the biblical perspective. The bible is full of descriptive language and imagery. . . . much like Paul is using in this section of Corinthians. . . . buildings. . . materials. . . . fire. . . .
Maybe the problem comes in part when we confuse metaphor for something literal. . . .
My computer doesn't have the sound working now for this type of stuff.
But I am pretty aware already of how much of the traditional Christian version of hell was taken straight from Greek/Roman mythology. So I understand the concept even if I can not hear your post right now. :)
This last weekend I have been considering how the Corinthians were OBVIOUSLY dealing with real issues. I'm certain they were all more or less aware of the young man who slept with his father's wife that Paul talked about later in the epistle.
I think it likely that various folks who wanted to or thought they should handle the issues were caught up in these things and getting puffed up with each other. Some acting like bigshots because Paul taught them, others for Apollos' sake, and even some because they had been taught by Peter.
So even though the issues were big and related to nasty things I like that by the end of the book of 2Co that Paul had encouraged the Corinthians to recieve back the young man after he had born his just recompense for the sin.
And over and over again I wonder how many churches have split up because people were only divisive and puffed when churches faced big issues.
It seems to me that TWI tried to keep folks together in a secretive and nasty way when word of Wierwille's perversions started getting out. And then when it appeared that word would get out top leadership decided that having everybody divided and seperate was better than everybody staying together and sharing notes.
And some leadership keeps preying on the Lord's flock, while other ex-leadership maintains their friendship with these Wierwille raised nasty turds who deserve to bear accountability for horrible abuse of practically every kind.
Paul kept everything sooooo out in the open that we can still read and consider the issues.
But to ex-TWI that still tries to sweep these things under the rug.....TTTTTHHHHHPPPPP!!!!! Your just helping the nasties hide under their rock. And that rock is NOT JESUS CHRIST, FOOLS.
My computer doesn't have the sound working now for this type of stuff.
But I am pretty aware already of how much of the traditional Christian version of hell was taken straight from Greek/Roman mythology. So I understand the concept even if I can not hear your post right now. :)
Hey Jeff,
Actually what he said was something different. I love the way he put's it into perspective. . . . and since you couldn't hear it. . .I copied some of the transcript. . . . just use a British accent when you read it and you are all set. . . . Enjoy! It actually makes sense.
The word hell has had a checkered career in the history of the church. And it wasnt hugely important in the early days. It was important, but not nearly as important as it became in the middle ages. And the in the middle ages, you get this polarization of heaven over here and hell over there, and you have to go to one place or the other eventually. So you have the Sistine Chapel, with that great thing behind the altar. This enormous great judgment seat, with the souls going off into these different directions. Very interestingly, I was sitting in the Sistine chapel just a few weeks ago. I was sitting for a service, and I was sitting next to a Greek Orthodox...who said to me, looking at the pictures of Jesus on one wall. He said, these I can understand. The pictures of Moses on the other wall, he said, those I can understand. Then he pointed at the end wall of judgment, and said, that I cannot understand. That is how you in the west have talked about judgment and heaven and hell. He said, we have never done it that way before, because the bible doesn't do it that way.
I thought, whoops. I think hes right actually. And whether youre Catholic or Protestant, that scenario which is etched into the consciousness of Western Christianity really has to be shaken about a bit. Because if heaven and earth are to join together. Its not a matter of leaving earth and going to heaven. Its heaven and earth joined together. And hell is what happens when human beings say, the God in whose image they were made, we dont want to worship you. We dont want our human life to be shaped by you. We dont want, who we are as humans to be transformed by the love of Jesus dying and rising for us. We dont want any of that. We want to stay as we are and do our own thing. And if you do that, what youre saying is, you want to stop being image bearing human being within this good world that God has made. And you are colluding with your own progressive dehumanization. And that is such a shocking and horrible thing, that its not surprising that the biblical writers and others have used very vivid and terrifying language about it. But, people have picked that up and said, this is a literal description of reality. Somewhere down there, there is a lake of fire, and its got worms in it and its got serpents and demons and there coming to get you. But I think actually, the reality is more sober and sad than that, which is this progressive shrinking of human life. And that happens during this life, but it seems to be that if someone resolutely says to God, Im not going to worship you...its not just Ill not come to church. Its a matter of deep down somewhere, there is a rejection of the good creator God, then that it the choice humans make.
In other words, I think the human choices in this life really matter. Were not just playing a game of chess, where tomorrow morning God will put the pieces back on the board and say, Ok that was just a game. Now were doing something different. The choices we make here really do matter. Theres part of me that would love to be a universalist, and say, itll be alright. Everyone will get there in the end. I actually...the choices you make in the present are more important than that.
I'm struck by the fact that many people seem to talk about it as if the DID NOT see through a glass darkly. But this guy in his considerations does not cross that line, they are considerations.
And to try to bring this back around....
Is it that every freaking Christian sect feels they need to come up with their own versions of heaven and hell to be valid or what?
There are clearly too many different teachers who pretend they see through a clear glass, not a dark one IMO.
And just becauswe I'm really feeling it this week.....once again.
Paul kept everything sooooo out in the open that we can still read and consider the issues.
But to ex-TWI that still tries to sweep these things under the rug.....TTTTTHHHHHPPPPP!!!!! Your just helping the nasties hide under their rock. And that rock is NOT JESUS CHRIST, FOOLS.
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JeffSjo
I wrote to you in my epistle not to keep company with sexually immoral people. 1 Co 5:9
I guess sects whose top leadership have twisted, abusive, predatory, and systematized sex as TWI should have been easy to deal with after all, huh? But even folks who saw these things up close seemingly fell for the imaginary spirituality that TWI still promotes. LEADERS!? Hah, we shouldn't ever have even hung around them scripturally.
But even if sex is not a particular sect's issue, will not the Lord judge any group who substitute carnal loyalty for spirituality?
(A little added for clarity)
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Shellon
ADULT CONTENT
Sunday evening I watched the MSNBC special they're doing on Cults; this time it was Branch Davidians, David Koresh
We'll remember they were in Waco, Texas and after a 51 day standoff with ATF, FBI and others, their compound was destroyed along with many lives, including Koresh.
The man believed he was "allowed" any and all women he chose, one of his wives was 14, the daughter of another follower who surrendered her child to him without pause.
The gentleman they were interviewing on the show spoke of Koresh manipulating the scripture "any way he chose for any purpose" and of course this meant to meet his sexual needs as well.
Koresh would take the scriptures about annointing the head of the man of God with oil to twist it into saying it meant the head of the man of God's penis and the oil was the physical releasing of "oil" of a woman's body during sexual intercourse.
Sickened me then and yet.
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JeffSjo
I bet Wierwille's justifications were just as sickening darlin.....
But it seems to me that some sect leaders relish the absolute authority and potential for abuse that the position offers.
But if Paul warned the Corintians and Apollos (who was a much less sickening man than Koresh or Wierwille) for the results of carnality in how folks relate to a genuine minister as Apollos (Paul's sentiment not mine) imagine how much trouble these sickening pervs are in, who do such things in God's name.
Such abuses make it seem that how I refer to God's garbage fire is appropriate.
(a little added in editing)
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waysider
Oh, I can just hear VP saying something like this.-------followed by, "You'll just have to trust me on this."
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George Aar
The Joy of Sects...
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T-Bone
"Sects, Lies & Videotape" although after considering the subliminal messages in vp's classes, I think the original title of "Sex, Lies & Videotape" would do just fine.
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Twinky
Only thing that surprises me about the snippet Shellon posted is that it didn't get plagiarized and incorporated into TWI dogma...
...at least so far as is currently known.
:o
(We really need a barf icon in the emoticons)
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JeffSjo
Does anyone else thin this section in Corinthians is amazing if applied to a sect filled modern Christianity as I do.
I think it is amazing to consider that what Paul revealed to the Corinthians applies to each and every denomination and sect in Christianity. The Lord will judge them all.
What I wonder sometimes is how is it that so many of the individuals in sects of every kind think that all the others are going to hell!? I think that if anyone swings too far to one side of the pendulum they may think everyone but the folks in their own sect will burn.
And at the other side of the pendulum IMO is assuming that we all should get along because the Lord will accept all sects.
Paul runs right down the middle between these extremes IMO.
But I find it fascinating that Paul, Peter, and Apollos were ministers and the Corinthians were fighting each other because of percieved differences, pride, just generally being puffed up name droppers, but maybe some genuine issues too, I cannot say for sure.
Paul's warning to the other builders was "Take heed how you build" and then explaining how the Lord's fire would burn all the flamables in His day. I bet Apollos had a lot to consider when he considered how the Corinthians related to him, an eloquent, educated, believing Alexandrian Jew. I'm thinking that the next time Apollos saw people getting puffed up because of him he knew how to help the churches stop their carnality. After all...he got to witness Paul, the wise master builder deal with carnal, divisive loyalty to even good ministers in Corinth.
(Edited for spelling and grammar)
(added in editing)
I think the opposite of Paul's example is when carnal leadership seeks to build their own power base and tries to carve out their own circles of influence after the founders death. They prove that they are far, far worse than minister wannabes. They then are the blind leading the blind into a ditch or wolves in sheep's clothing seeking to make prey of the Lord's flock.
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WordWolf
Yes.
I agree with all of that. :)
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T-Bone
A little hobby of mine is reading different systematic theologies. Something that occurred to me after thinking about this thread is that the more detailed we get in articulating the different topics of our faith, it seems there's more material to polarize folks – differences are fostered – and small issues begin to loom large. Differences of opinion is not a bad thing – I just think it can get ugly like Jeff said – one group damning all other groups to hell; or thinking their bundle of doctrines is superior. Been there, done that.
Considering the fact that the New Testament documents emerged quite a number of years after the birth of the Church, it seems reasonable to assume one of the reasons for the rapid and unified growth of the Church early on was the lack of some cumbersome formalized theology. It's just a guess – just thinking as a technician now: simple is usually the best way to go – it's efficient and there's a lot less that can get screwed up. I think it was FF Bruce's book "Jesus: Lord & Savior" that points out the only two things the early Church preached were Jesus is Lord and that He was raised from the dead.
Like I said checking out systematic theologies is a hobby of mine. And I'm just as guilty as anyone in maintaining a tight hold on my pet doctrines. I think that's why I like Grease Spot. Not only for the eye-opening diversity of viewpoints but also for the subtle challenge that presents itself to me – just how essential is this or that to my theology? And more importantly – what is the practical consequence of it? I have to admit – since I've joined Grease Spot I've gotten more comfortable with holding a lot of my belief system in a state of flux. I don't belong to some local church – so there's no pressure to kowtow to some leader or creed [i'm kinda done with that if you haven't noticed already]. Yup – got my own sect now. A force of one. The mission of my sect? It's to figure out what God wants me to do since I fled from that Mickey Mouse sect based out of New Knoxville. It's a lifetime journey [said in my best Forrest Gump].
I'm through with using my pet theology as a litmus test for evaluating others. Been there, done that too. Other than coming to Grease Spot and spewing out my screwy 2 cents on things, I don't spend a whole lot of time talking about Bible stuff with folks I meet. Guess that's why I come to Grease Spot.
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geisha779
I know this thread is not about hell, but I thought you might enjoy this. . . . the idea of hell within the western church. . . . where it comes from. . . . and how it might differ from the biblical perspective. The bible is full of descriptive language and imagery. . . . much like Paul is using in this section of Corinthians. . . . buildings. . . materials. . . . fire. . . .
Maybe the problem comes in part when we confuse metaphor for something literal. . . .
<object width="560" height="340"><param name="movie" value="
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JeffSjo
Thank you Geisha,
My computer doesn't have the sound working now for this type of stuff.
But I am pretty aware already of how much of the traditional Christian version of hell was taken straight from Greek/Roman mythology. So I understand the concept even if I can not hear your post right now. :)
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JeffSjo
About the thread topic......
This last weekend I have been considering how the Corinthians were OBVIOUSLY dealing with real issues. I'm certain they were all more or less aware of the young man who slept with his father's wife that Paul talked about later in the epistle.
I think it likely that various folks who wanted to or thought they should handle the issues were caught up in these things and getting puffed up with each other. Some acting like bigshots because Paul taught them, others for Apollos' sake, and even some because they had been taught by Peter.
So even though the issues were big and related to nasty things I like that by the end of the book of 2Co that Paul had encouraged the Corinthians to recieve back the young man after he had born his just recompense for the sin.
And over and over again I wonder how many churches have split up because people were only divisive and puffed when churches faced big issues.
It seems to me that TWI tried to keep folks together in a secretive and nasty way when word of Wierwille's perversions started getting out. And then when it appeared that word would get out top leadership decided that having everybody divided and seperate was better than everybody staying together and sharing notes.
And some leadership keeps preying on the Lord's flock, while other ex-leadership maintains their friendship with these Wierwille raised nasty turds who deserve to bear accountability for horrible abuse of practically every kind.
Paul kept everything sooooo out in the open that we can still read and consider the issues.
But to ex-TWI that still tries to sweep these things under the rug.....TTTTTHHHHHPPPPP!!!!! Your just helping the nasties hide under their rock. And that rock is NOT JESUS CHRIST, FOOLS.
(edited for spelling)
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geisha779
Hey Jeff,
Actually what he said was something different. I love the way he put's it into perspective. . . . and since you couldn't hear it. . .I copied some of the transcript. . . . just use a British accent when you read it and you are all set. . . . Enjoy! It actually makes sense.
The word hell has had a checkered career in the history of the church. And it wasnt hugely important in the early days. It was important, but not nearly as important as it became in the middle ages. And the in the middle ages, you get this polarization of heaven over here and hell over there, and you have to go to one place or the other eventually. So you have the Sistine Chapel, with that great thing behind the altar. This enormous great judgment seat, with the souls going off into these different directions. Very interestingly, I was sitting in the Sistine chapel just a few weeks ago. I was sitting for a service, and I was sitting next to a Greek Orthodox...who said to me, looking at the pictures of Jesus on one wall. He said, these I can understand. The pictures of Moses on the other wall, he said, those I can understand. Then he pointed at the end wall of judgment, and said, that I cannot understand. That is how you in the west have talked about judgment and heaven and hell. He said, we have never done it that way before, because the bible doesn't do it that way.
I thought, whoops. I think hes right actually. And whether youre Catholic or Protestant, that scenario which is etched into the consciousness of Western Christianity really has to be shaken about a bit. Because if heaven and earth are to join together. Its not a matter of leaving earth and going to heaven. Its heaven and earth joined together. And hell is what happens when human beings say, the God in whose image they were made, we dont want to worship you. We dont want our human life to be shaped by you. We dont want, who we are as humans to be transformed by the love of Jesus dying and rising for us. We dont want any of that. We want to stay as we are and do our own thing. And if you do that, what youre saying is, you want to stop being image bearing human being within this good world that God has made. And you are colluding with your own progressive dehumanization. And that is such a shocking and horrible thing, that its not surprising that the biblical writers and others have used very vivid and terrifying language about it. But, people have picked that up and said, this is a literal description of reality. Somewhere down there, there is a lake of fire, and its got worms in it and its got serpents and demons and there coming to get you. But I think actually, the reality is more sober and sad than that, which is this progressive shrinking of human life. And that happens during this life, but it seems to be that if someone resolutely says to God, Im not going to worship you...its not just Ill not come to church. Its a matter of deep down somewhere, there is a rejection of the good creator God, then that it the choice humans make.
In other words, I think the human choices in this life really matter. Were not just playing a game of chess, where tomorrow morning God will put the pieces back on the board and say, Ok that was just a game. Now were doing something different. The choices we make here really do matter. Theres part of me that would love to be a universalist, and say, itll be alright. Everyone will get there in the end. I actually...the choices you make in the present are more important than that.
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JeffSjo
That is some good stuff Geisha.
I'm struck by the fact that many people seem to talk about it as if the DID NOT see through a glass darkly. But this guy in his considerations does not cross that line, they are considerations.
And to try to bring this back around....
Is it that every freaking Christian sect feels they need to come up with their own versions of heaven and hell to be valid or what?
There are clearly too many different teachers who pretend they see through a clear glass, not a dark one IMO.
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JeffSjo
And just becauswe I'm really feeling it this week.....once again.
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