My suggestions would be practical ones for anyone just leaving.
If you've been hanging out for a very long time, plan to grieve a loss.
Plan ahead for the first night or afternoon where you'd usually be in a fellowship somewhere. All that stuff you wished you could do that night? Do them, start simple.
If you still need/want to tithe, research a place to give your dollars. I gave my 15% to Head Start for awhile cuz it's a program I highly believe in.
If you need a church family, start simple like going to a public event they have; bake sale, etc. Great relaxed way to meet new friends and listen.
Take a freakin' vacation where YOU want to go.
Re-structure your down time and make attempts to shove aside the guilt when you're not using this time studying Acts or Revelation or planning the next event.
Get a new address book instead of just crossing out those fools who won't or can't talk to you anymore. If you leave them in just crossed out, it's a daily reminder of the loss.
Leave your ministry (or whatever) material up and laying around for a time and maybe take one or two down or put away slowly. This stuff has been a part of your life for a long time, it looks "empty" there without it. If you toss or burn or otherwise give away things in anger or grief too fast, the regret might be great later.
Plan your answer for when you run into old "friends", as you surely will if you stay in area. Don't get caught off guard without a retort and don't avoid forever. You decide, though.
Don't canel your Subscription to their mag or literature immediately. Look at it and use it as a reminder why you did whatcha did; it was right.
Don't second guess yourself, it takes time to adjust to such a total and complete shift and it will feel normal again.
Been wanting to read the most "devlish" book you can get your hands on but knew they'd find out about it? Read that bad boy. With a glass of wine or your fave brew. Then discuss with someone who's also read it, w/out a shred of guilt. Leave out on your coffee table in plain sight.
Buy a brand new clean and fresh budget book. Keep old one with their structure for tax purposes, but start over fresh for yours.
Spray some WD-40 on old bumper stickers and get 'em off.
Do nothing drastic in a hasty manner. This is a loss, it's a shift in life and major decision shouldn't be made for at least a year in some circumstances. (This one was the one I learned the hardest way possible).
Relax as much as possible.
If your spouse/partner/suite mate/ kids/others aren't leaving the organization with you, don't stare at them in anticipation of them understanding how much better you are and why don't they get it. Strike a compromise for daily life and stick to your half of the deal.
Rough day? Call that old friend who left before you and see if you can re connect; they'll likely be thrilled to big brother/sister you.
Don't call everyone you ever hurt in the place right away. You know you're remorseful for some stuff and would like to start repairs, but overwhelming actions often brings overwhelming answers and it can seem undone later, making do over necessary.
Although it is good to get a perspective from those who have left. . . . I would seek out some professional opinions. . . . jumping from an offshoot to a particular textual critic may not address all of the issues which need to be resolved.
Academia is a good place to dwell for a time, but it is a world unto itself with it's own code of ethics. . . . language, and hierarchy. . . . . and many many voices.
It might be a good idea to deal with some of the conditioning that happens in groups like TWI and it's offshoots. . . .patterns of thinking and the idea that we can fall prey to and wed a particular position.
I'm starting this topic so that we who are out can give some advice to people who are out or thinking about it as their next step in their new direction.
Here is my advice:
What some of us did was join up with an offshoot, which in retrospect is something that I would not recommend. I don't know why you are thinking about leaving or why you have left. This is the reality: every offshoot is dedicated to some aspect of TWI. They may think they are trying to do it better or a bit different, but the foundation for every offshoot is TWI. TWI is a cult. It demands "like-mindedness," which on the surface seems like a great idea, but in reality it is not. Every offshoot is all about like-mindedness like it is the end-all. What this mentality does is delay your entry back into the world. You might think you can straddle the fence, but there will be a time when you will have to make a decision to stay and swallow the blue pill or go. That is the way it is.
If you move to an offshoot, you will not allow yourself the opportunity to really explore your belief system, and I'm telling you that you need to do that. You need the opportunity to question everything you think you know when it comes to your faith and practice. What I have found out since leaving TWI and the offshoot I was involved with for 16 years after that, is that they were really short on actual research due to the limitations set by their basic assumptions and premises. The methodology is very lightweight, as research methods go. However, you will, even using the basic methodology of reading what's on the page and paying attention to context, come to very different conclusions than what was taught in TWI - if you treat the text honestly. The different conclusions start if you read the gospels as being written to you, and not merely for your learning. There is no reason to believe they weren't written to you other than someone's notion that they weren't. That's the next thing you might consider. God doesn't have a prescribed method for interpreting the Bible. Any methodology at all is based on some person's idea of how it should be done. I believe every methodology is designed to lead you to someone's conclusion, which may or may not be the conclusion that God wants you to have. I believe that if you approach bible study with that in mind, your mind is allowed to accept or reject, and that's ok.
What I finally ended up doing was making a clean break from the offshoot. I headed back to school where I was forced to take a couple of humanities courses. These courses presented the era of pre and early Christianity very differently than what I thought I knew. That led me to looking at a historian's view of Christianity, which I chose to do with books written by and college level courses taught by Bart Erhman. I started studying philosophy, psychology, critical thinking, reasoning, and religion, including the study of religion along with world religions. I now read from a number of different viewpoints and methodologies. I believe I have benefited from enlarging my resources.
Now when I go back and read TWI and offshoot writings, it is very clear how each organization is trying to lead people to its conclusion. That is not to say that I have come to believe all of the theology taught by TWI and offshoots is wrong. What I have come to believe is that a big part of it is for no other reason than to create division and arrogance.
The one thing I noticed when in the offshoot was the initial feeling of freedom and the ability to explore other beliefs in an open and inviting environment, or so I believed. By the time I left, that was no longer possible. I was in a position where I could see the drafts of how the organization expected the local fellowships to function and what it would take to be involved, and I was appalled. I don't know what was actually adopted and what was not, but what I read was frightening. I couldn't support it, and that was while I was still able to appreciate the mindset. Now that no checks and balances exist (at least within that group) I can only imagine what it is like, but I know it was bad enough with the few checks and balances in place, that I could no longer support it.
Being in the offshoot delayed the inevitable for me. I left TWI for a number of reasons. One of those was the idea that you could be trained to be more spiritual. While in the beginning we were treated as though we were on more of a level playing field, the reality was these leaders liked the basis of TWI, and the only reason many of them were gone was because they were fired. All they want to do is "improve" on TWI, where the underlying presumption that TWI's premises, theology, and practice is sound. This invariably led to the introduction of "classes" and "training" that was touted as "breakthrough training," but was actually nothing more than training designed to break you and fill you with its garbage. When people protested, they took it underground, but it's still alive. This kind of thing is going on in all of the offshoots to some degree.
The point I'm trying to make is that you can plop yourself into one of the offshoots and feel like you're right at home. That is not a good thing, because the real reason why you left is still alive and thriving in the offshoot. It may not be noticeable right away; after all you've been conditioned to accept many things at face value and so those things become a comfortable friend even as they work against you, but the reason is there.
Please just think about it.
Pure genious dude. I feel exactly the same way about most of this.
All of the above posts contain very good advice, in my view. This discussion is very important for a lot of people.
Tazia, I could not agree more that offshoot groups cannot provide the breathing space many people need to escape "TWI-think." You mentioned one of the major ways I also conducted my post-TWI journey of growth - education, including work by Bart Erhman.
Thinking back on what I needed most during my first few months after leaving TWI, I see I primarily needed someone to just listen to me. I needed a safe place to speak my mind about what happened to me and why I left, etc. In 1987 (ancient times before the internet), I had only a couple of people I trusted with my heart, and they were geographically far from me. Counselors were pretty in the dark about cult like fundamentalists groups then, although there was one group called Fundamentalists Anonymous but I didn't contact them. I trusted few people. I for sure knew an TWI offshoot group was not my remedy (the first big one was starting up and run by John Lynn, etc.) Why? Because they weren't addressing the reasons why I left (research related.)
I'd just add this note to those thinking of leaving or fresh out - Give yourself a chance to be alone with your thoughts, go for long walks, and if you are inclined, keep a journal to sort out those thoughts, too. Your time alone with the Creator, no matter what you call it or don't call it, is your own.
Don't think for a minute that our spiritual, intellectual, and emotional lives are not our own to cherish - they are. Luckily we still live in a country that offers a way to enjoy these freedoms.
Lastly, I'll offer this quote that, although gloomy-sounding, may shed light on this topic:
"We do not receive wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can make for us, which no one else can spare us." Marcel Proust
IF you have family from whom you are estranged because of your involvement, do NOT be afraid to contact them with the news that you have left. They will rejoice as did the father of the prodigal son. Let them help you.
But, I would try not to talk about your TWI experience with them right away 'cause that might hurt you too much.
I heartily agree with those who say to start with a clean slate, to question everything that was taught. I have run across many people who claim to have "checked out" what was taught in TWI, but have only done so wearing PFAL-colored glasses, i.e., reading scriptures in light of what Wierwille taught, using Wierwille's definitions and Wierwille's assumptions, including made-up definitions of Greek words, distinctions between words that were nonexistant and leaps of illogic.
Tzaia mentioned reading the gospels as written to us, not just "for our learning. That's a great example right there. Wierwille taught (and he may have gotten this from Bullinger) that scripture was either "to us" or "for our learning" (i.e. not to us). When it says that that which was written aforetime was written for our learning, why should we assume that that's the opposite of "to us", or that "for our learning" and "to us" are mutually exclusive. That was a conclusion that Wierwille came to that I don't believe is warranted. Even if you want to believe that some scripture is not written to us, where do you draw the line at "aforetime"? Why Pentecost? Why not before Jesus' ministry? This isn't an agrument against or in favor of "not all scripture is to us", but a point to show that Wierwille's conclusions are not necessarily correct for all that he acted as if his take was the only logical and/or godly conclusion.
Now when I go back and read TWI and offshoot writings, it is very clear how each organization is trying to lead people to its conclusion. That is not to say that I have come to believe all of the theology taught by TWI and offshoots is wrong. What I have come to believe is that a big part of it is for no other reason than to create division and arrogance.
Tzaia......lots of good points, thanks.
I would add.....what I have come to believe is that twi and offshoots deliberately builds a system where all roads lead to dependency. Dependency to stay like-minded. Dependency to police each other and monitor thought and speech. Dependency that leads to self-destruct identity [catcup's article 'Destruction of Self']. Dependency is the christian equivalent of repeat business.
With this dependency, one is inclined to faithfully tithe to co-join actions with mental thought.
Great thread idea and lots of helpful suggestions. The only thing I wanted to add was something else to mull over if one is still in the thinking-about-getting-out phase. Or maybe your thinking hasn’t even gone that far yet – it might just be a really uncomfortable-oppressively-nebulous-something-or-other feeling that now refuses to go away. It’s come around before but you’ve always managed to squelch it.
What I suggest doing is face the nebulous cloud head-on. If you’ve been reading Grease Spot I’d venture to say some things here have resonated with you.. . or maybe not. But if so, try thinking about your various TWI experiences & beliefs in a slightly different manner. I don’t know how to describe it other than that it’s maybe a more objective – or even a cold, clinical approach. It’s sort of like being your own counselor. And it works something like this – anytime you come across something that hits you as anti-TWI but at the same time there’s something about it that it seems to strangely touch a nerve – then by all means explore that from every angle.
I remember some of my initial reactions to Grease Spot were utter shock. Eventually I began to see some of the things that really bugged me came down to a weird battle in my head. It was a battle between some mindset that I adopted while in TWI and reflecting on certain experiences & plain reason that contradicted that mindset. Perhaps this is one of those times in life where no one else can supply an answer for you – for that will not satisfy this .. . weird gnawing itch in your head. It comes down to you alone – and what YOU think about it all.
Well, keep it simple.. . to reiterate my suggestion – instead of ignoring those indistinct feelings or whatever you want to call them – try looking into them. It’s just asking yourself why does this or that bug you.
I agree with about everything said so far. I would like to add that even though it may seem like it, you are never alone. There are thousands who can relate to what you are going through. Also, God (or fate, or whatever) has a way of leading you to the right places and people if you keep your heart open and pliable. Be willing to be wrong, and try not to take yourself too seriously. Offshoots, in my opinion, will delay your progress.
Read "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", a book which you can find through recommended readings on this site. It was written from the perspective of someone trying to start a church who had no contact or knows nothing about TWI. It has a good solid exegetical scriptural basis. Coming straight from being used to looking at Greek / Hebrew / Aramaiac words in teachings its a good read and the simple fact that there is zero connection with TWI other than the scriptures and behavior being described to a "T" make it a great start.
I heartily agree with those who say to start with a clean slate, to question everything that was taught. I have run across many people who claim to have "checked out" what was taught in TWI, but have only done so wearing PFAL-colored glasses, i.e., reading scriptures in light of what Wierwille taught, using Wierwille's definitions and Wierwille's assumptions, including made-up definitions of Greek words, distinctions between words that were nonexistant and leaps of illogic.
Tzaia mentioned reading the gospels as written to us, not just "for our learning. That's a great example right there. Wierwille taught (and he may have gotten this from Bullinger) that scripture was either "to us" or "for our learning" (i.e. not to us). When it says that that which was written aforetime was written for our learning, why should we assume that that's the opposite of "to us", or that "for our learning" and "to us" are mutually exclusive. That was a conclusion that Wierwille came to that I don't believe is warranted. Even if you want to believe that some scripture is not written to us, where do you draw the line at "aforetime"? Why Pentecost? Why not before Jesus' ministry? This isn't an agrument against or in favor of "not all scripture is to us", but a point to show that Wierwille's conclusions are not necessarily correct for all that he acted as if his take was the only logical and/or godly conclusion
I was talking to my 19 year old son about this very thing last night. He said, "What do I believe now? Was it all a lie?" All I told him is to take it slow and after all these years, make it your own. God is still God and loves him regardless of what men say or do. Take the simple things he knows are good, such as put away lying and be ye kind one to another and run with those. Because in a cult or not those are just good simple ways of life. I also added as an after thought that if God isn't even real when all this is said and done (which of course I don't believe) we can't go wrong by doing those things that are right and if we die and it was all a lie then all we are is dead anyway so what the heck.
I heartily agree with those who say to start with a clean slate, to question everything that was taught. I have run across many people who claim to have "checked out" what was taught in TWI, but have only done so wearing PFAL-colored glasses, i.e., reading scriptures in light of what Wierwille taught, using Wierwille's definitions and Wierwille's assumptions, including made-up definitions of Greek words, distinctions between words that were nonexistant and leaps of illogic.
Tzaia mentioned reading the gospels as written to us, not just "for our learning. That's a great example right there. Wierwille taught (and he may have gotten this from Bullinger) that scripture was either "to us" or "for our learning" (i.e. not to us). When it says that that which was written aforetime was written for our learning, why should we assume that that's the opposite of "to us", or that "for our learning" and "to us" are mutually exclusive. That was a conclusion that Wierwille came to that I don't believe is warranted. Even if you want to believe that some scripture is not written to us, where do you draw the line at "aforetime"? Why Pentecost? Why not before Jesus' ministry? This isn't an agrument against or in favor of "not all scripture is to us", but a point to show that Wierwille's conclusions are not necessarily correct for all that he acted as if his take was the only logical and/or godly conclusion
I was talking to my 19 year old son about this very thing last night. He said, "What do I believe now? Was it all a lie?" All I told him is to take it slow and after all these years, make it your own. God is still God and loves him regardless of what men say or do. Take the simple things he knows are good, such as put away lying and be ye kind one to another and run with those. Because in a cult or not those are just good simple ways of life. I also added as an after thought that if God isn't even real when all this is said and done (which of course I don't believe) we can't go wrong by doing those things that are right and if we die and it was all a lie then all we are is dead anyway so what the heck.
The Gospels were NOT written before the Epistles.
Even if they HAD been, "by sheer logic", when a Greek word is translated one thing in one
place, it should be so in another place, or the translator is using what vpw called
"private interpretation."
In other places, the word is translated DOCTRINE.
What things were written aforetime, are for our DOCTRINE.
This makes sense, because all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness.
My advice to those who have left is to do whatever it takes to get healed. Obviously, if you were involved in twi, you love God and want to be right. If you were like most people when you originally got involved you were dissatisfied with your prior religious organization, or if you weren't a believer yet, you were seeking a better life. Notwithstanding some of the hidden faults of twi at that time, something about how the Bible was presented or something about the people in the organization attracted you. (That is how most people decide to fellowship with any church regardless of what that church believes...)
The fact that you have decided to leave implies that what originally attracted you to the organization has changed and/or that you have found out about something that displeases you now. twi has definitely changed from the way it was. In fact it has changed several times. It was one way before all the young people got involved, then when they came in the '70s it changed. Then later when it got big and it instituted its organizational structure, it changed again. Later after vpw died and when lcm's leadership was challenged it changed again and the "fog years" ensued. Many people left or were kicked out. Then lcm emerged from the fog and changed it again. Next, the lawsuits came to light and lcm was expelled. Little did lcm know, but rfr had been manipulating things behind the scenes and soon she put her stamp on the ministry. Next, twi realized that things had gone too far because people were leaving in droves, so they racheted rfr's changes back to a "kinder gentler" version and that is where they are now. Throughout this time people became dissatisfied with the way things were and if they weren't kicked out, they had a choice to either leave or try to change the organization from within.
My point is that whatever the reasons that you left, don't blame God for it. He did not hurt or disappoint you, people did. You are still a precious child of God and you still have the calling that He called you to do. Those things transcend any organization of men. (And they cannot be taken away, nor does God change His mind about them.) Now that you are out, you are going to experience a lot of unexpected things. The familiarity of the fellowship will be gone, you may not have many friends and depending upon the circumstances of your leaving, you may have guilt or emotional issues to deal with. This is a very vulnerable time and some people don't get through it well. Many end up becoming bitter and looking back for the rest of their lives, allowing past events to control them. Don't try to go through this post-exit phase on your own. Don't isolate yourself. You need a friend. You need someone to talk to and help you sort everything out. It is good to re-evaluate things. It is good to check your motives. This time will be a real catharsis. Just hold fast to that which is good. But in the end, you should be better and stronger for it.
God is still there and just like He helped Job, He can help you. So ask Him for help. All the "whosoevers" in the Bible still apply to you no matter what anyone else told you... God will help you. He can find you a friend to talk to. If you need time to think and not get involved with some other organization, that's OK. But it should not be permanent, because you still have a Godly calling and that ministry is directed towards other believers, so it functions best within a body of some kind. When it is time, God can show you where you belong. But to be really healed, you'll need to reach the same point that Job did and be able to genuinely pray for his "friends." If you can get through your catharsis whole, without being vengeful or bitter or calloused, and looking forward to new goals and not living your life controlled by the past and be able to forgive and genuinely pray for those people who hurt you, God will reward you double and you will regain what you lost. That is what is possible and God can get you back on the road to achieving it no matter what state you are in now.
There is a lot you can pray for when you are praying for your "friends". For example, there are a whole lot of people in twi who know things are wrong and have decided to try to change it from within. In the Bible Eli was screwed up so bad that his sons were seducing the women who were coming to the gate for help. I Samuel 3 says that there was no open vision, that means there was no functioning minister who was teaching the real Word of God - they all were pushing something else... Yet even in the midst of all the vile, abusive and wrong things that were going on, God was able to rise up Samuel and eventually Samuel kicked butt and the evil ones got what was coming to them. (God will deal with those who have abused His people in time, and it always is thorough...) So maybe it would be a good thing to pray for those "Samuels", those "7000 who have not bowed their knee" to Baal or whatever other error the abusers have pushed. These reformers should try to do what God wants them to do. They will either succeed or be kicked out. But that is better than doing nothing because of fear...
The goal is to emerge from all this still loving God and still wanting to do what is right. I pray that you get healed and that you will be able to live the rest of your life for Him.
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Tzaia
I'm starting this topic so that we who are out can give some advice to people who are out or thinking about it as their next step in their new direction. Here is my advice: What some of us did was j
Shellon
My suggestions would be practical ones for anyone just leaving. If you've been hanging out for a very long time, plan to grieve a loss. Plan ahead for the first night or afternoon where you'd usuall
Research Geek
My advice to those who have left is to do whatever it takes to get healed. Obviously, if you were involved in twi, you love God and want to be right. If you were like most people when you originally
Shellon
My suggestions would be practical ones for anyone just leaving.
If you've been hanging out for a very long time, plan to grieve a loss.
Plan ahead for the first night or afternoon where you'd usually be in a fellowship somewhere. All that stuff you wished you could do that night? Do them, start simple.
If you still need/want to tithe, research a place to give your dollars. I gave my 15% to Head Start for awhile cuz it's a program I highly believe in.
If you need a church family, start simple like going to a public event they have; bake sale, etc. Great relaxed way to meet new friends and listen.
Take a freakin' vacation where YOU want to go.
Re-structure your down time and make attempts to shove aside the guilt when you're not using this time studying Acts or Revelation or planning the next event.
Get a new address book instead of just crossing out those fools who won't or can't talk to you anymore. If you leave them in just crossed out, it's a daily reminder of the loss.
Leave your ministry (or whatever) material up and laying around for a time and maybe take one or two down or put away slowly. This stuff has been a part of your life for a long time, it looks "empty" there without it. If you toss or burn or otherwise give away things in anger or grief too fast, the regret might be great later.
Plan your answer for when you run into old "friends", as you surely will if you stay in area. Don't get caught off guard without a retort and don't avoid forever. You decide, though.
Don't canel your Subscription to their mag or literature immediately. Look at it and use it as a reminder why you did whatcha did; it was right.
Don't second guess yourself, it takes time to adjust to such a total and complete shift and it will feel normal again.
Been wanting to read the most "devlish" book you can get your hands on but knew they'd find out about it? Read that bad boy. With a glass of wine or your fave brew. Then discuss with someone who's also read it, w/out a shred of guilt. Leave out on your coffee table in plain sight.
Buy a brand new clean and fresh budget book. Keep old one with their structure for tax purposes, but start over fresh for yours.
Spray some WD-40 on old bumper stickers and get 'em off.
Do nothing drastic in a hasty manner. This is a loss, it's a shift in life and major decision shouldn't be made for at least a year in some circumstances. (This one was the one I learned the hardest way possible).
Relax as much as possible.
If your spouse/partner/suite mate/ kids/others aren't leaving the organization with you, don't stare at them in anticipation of them understanding how much better you are and why don't they get it. Strike a compromise for daily life and stick to your half of the deal.
Rough day? Call that old friend who left before you and see if you can re connect; they'll likely be thrilled to big brother/sister you.
Don't call everyone you ever hurt in the place right away. You know you're remorseful for some stuff and would like to start repairs, but overwhelming actions often brings overwhelming answers and it can seem undone later, making do over necessary.
Take your time.
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waysider
Take some time look at the lesson of Eve's downfall, in session seven of pfal, with a critical eye.
Yeah, I know. According to that lesson, you shouldn't even consider the lesson itself.
It was "the hook".
Never allow your mind to "consider"????
What kind of system is this that dictates what you can and can't think?
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geisha779
Good practical advice Shellon.
Although it is good to get a perspective from those who have left. . . . I would seek out some professional opinions. . . . jumping from an offshoot to a particular textual critic may not address all of the issues which need to be resolved.
Academia is a good place to dwell for a time, but it is a world unto itself with it's own code of ethics. . . . language, and hierarchy. . . . . and many many voices.
It might be a good idea to deal with some of the conditioning that happens in groups like TWI and it's offshoots. . . .patterns of thinking and the idea that we can fall prey to and wed a particular position.
Just some thoughts.
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Bishop
Pure genious dude. I feel exactly the same way about most of this.
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penworks
All of the above posts contain very good advice, in my view. This discussion is very important for a lot of people.
Tazia, I could not agree more that offshoot groups cannot provide the breathing space many people need to escape "TWI-think." You mentioned one of the major ways I also conducted my post-TWI journey of growth - education, including work by Bart Erhman.
Thinking back on what I needed most during my first few months after leaving TWI, I see I primarily needed someone to just listen to me. I needed a safe place to speak my mind about what happened to me and why I left, etc. In 1987 (ancient times before the internet), I had only a couple of people I trusted with my heart, and they were geographically far from me. Counselors were pretty in the dark about cult like fundamentalists groups then, although there was one group called Fundamentalists Anonymous but I didn't contact them. I trusted few people. I for sure knew an TWI offshoot group was not my remedy (the first big one was starting up and run by John Lynn, etc.) Why? Because they weren't addressing the reasons why I left (research related.)
I'd just add this note to those thinking of leaving or fresh out - Give yourself a chance to be alone with your thoughts, go for long walks, and if you are inclined, keep a journal to sort out those thoughts, too. Your time alone with the Creator, no matter what you call it or don't call it, is your own.
Don't think for a minute that our spiritual, intellectual, and emotional lives are not our own to cherish - they are. Luckily we still live in a country that offers a way to enjoy these freedoms.
Lastly, I'll offer this quote that, although gloomy-sounding, may shed light on this topic:
"We do not receive wisdom, we must discover it for ourselves, after a journey through the wilderness which no one else can make for us, which no one else can spare us." Marcel Proust
Peace and best wishes,
Charlene Lamy (Bishop) Edge
Former Way Corps 2
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Watered Garden
IF you have family from whom you are estranged because of your involvement, do NOT be afraid to contact them with the news that you have left. They will rejoice as did the father of the prodigal son. Let them help you.
But, I would try not to talk about your TWI experience with them right away 'cause that might hurt you too much.
WG
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Oakspear
I heartily agree with those who say to start with a clean slate, to question everything that was taught. I have run across many people who claim to have "checked out" what was taught in TWI, but have only done so wearing PFAL-colored glasses, i.e., reading scriptures in light of what Wierwille taught, using Wierwille's definitions and Wierwille's assumptions, including made-up definitions of Greek words, distinctions between words that were nonexistant and leaps of illogic.
Tzaia mentioned reading the gospels as written to us, not just "for our learning. That's a great example right there. Wierwille taught (and he may have gotten this from Bullinger) that scripture was either "to us" or "for our learning" (i.e. not to us). When it says that that which was written aforetime was written for our learning, why should we assume that that's the opposite of "to us", or that "for our learning" and "to us" are mutually exclusive. That was a conclusion that Wierwille came to that I don't believe is warranted. Even if you want to believe that some scripture is not written to us, where do you draw the line at "aforetime"? Why Pentecost? Why not before Jesus' ministry? This isn't an agrument against or in favor of "not all scripture is to us", but a point to show that Wierwille's conclusions are not necessarily correct for all that he acted as if his take was the only logical and/or godly conclusion.
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skyrider
Tzaia......lots of good points, thanks.
I would add.....what I have come to believe is that twi and offshoots deliberately builds a system where all roads lead to dependency. Dependency to stay like-minded. Dependency to police each other and monitor thought and speech. Dependency that leads to self-destruct identity [catcup's article 'Destruction of Self']. Dependency is the christian equivalent of repeat business.
With this dependency, one is inclined to faithfully tithe to co-join actions with mental thought.
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T-Bone
Great thread idea and lots of helpful suggestions. The only thing I wanted to add was something else to mull over if one is still in the thinking-about-getting-out phase. Or maybe your thinking hasn’t even gone that far yet – it might just be a really uncomfortable-oppressively-nebulous-something-or-other feeling that now refuses to go away. It’s come around before but you’ve always managed to squelch it.
What I suggest doing is face the nebulous cloud head-on. If you’ve been reading Grease Spot I’d venture to say some things here have resonated with you.. . or maybe not. But if so, try thinking about your various TWI experiences & beliefs in a slightly different manner. I don’t know how to describe it other than that it’s maybe a more objective – or even a cold, clinical approach. It’s sort of like being your own counselor. And it works something like this – anytime you come across something that hits you as anti-TWI but at the same time there’s something about it that it seems to strangely touch a nerve – then by all means explore that from every angle.
I remember some of my initial reactions to Grease Spot were utter shock. Eventually I began to see some of the things that really bugged me came down to a weird battle in my head. It was a battle between some mindset that I adopted while in TWI and reflecting on certain experiences & plain reason that contradicted that mindset. Perhaps this is one of those times in life where no one else can supply an answer for you – for that will not satisfy this .. . weird gnawing itch in your head. It comes down to you alone – and what YOU think about it all.
Well, keep it simple.. . to reiterate my suggestion – instead of ignoring those indistinct feelings or whatever you want to call them – try looking into them. It’s just asking yourself why does this or that bug you.
Cheers & good luck
T-Bone
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Broken Arrow
I agree with about everything said so far. I would like to add that even though it may seem like it, you are never alone. There are thousands who can relate to what you are going through. Also, God (or fate, or whatever) has a way of leading you to the right places and people if you keep your heart open and pliable. Be willing to be wrong, and try not to take yourself too seriously. Offshoots, in my opinion, will delay your progress.
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year2027
God first
hi Tzaia
what is a cult?
who is in a cult?
we all are cults my friend every church known to man is a cult
we are or have ideals that we think are right
some are God teaches us others are not
the bible has 66 books but its dedicated to Prince James not God
God's wrote many books and God word is still being wrote
most people do not know there in a cult
we all have to go somewhere
we learn that we are part of a cult
the key not to let the cult control us
love Roy
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chockfull
Read "The Subtle Power of Spiritual Abuse", a book which you can find through recommended readings on this site. It was written from the perspective of someone trying to start a church who had no contact or knows nothing about TWI. It has a good solid exegetical scriptural basis. Coming straight from being used to looking at Greek / Hebrew / Aramaiac words in teachings its a good read and the simple fact that there is zero connection with TWI other than the scriptures and behavior being described to a "T" make it a great start.
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Billy G
My advice is to stay if you're happy.
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waysider
I had a relative who was "happy" smoking crack.
Now he's dead.
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cheranne
I use to be a "happy" cult member too!
Ignorance is Bliss(Get the Facts) 
be Free
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Oakspear
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year2027
God first
hi Billy G
I was not given a choice
their a cult like every church because there legally a church now so they cannot pay taxes
anybody with God should not worry about taxes
they would not welcome me come to a meeting
but there none here in my town
thank you
with love and a holy kiss Roy
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Bolshevik
why? what if some people are more dangerous and unstable on the outside? Better to contain them in wayworld . . .
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Tzaia
The ONLY people I knew who were happy didn't know what was going on, or was involved in what was going on.
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pawtucket
Hi Billy, How are things in New Knoxville?
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Bolshevik
or did know, and didn't want to sacrifice their happiness.
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grand-daughter
Posted 17 October 2009 - 11:44 AM
I heartily agree with those who say to start with a clean slate, to question everything that was taught. I have run across many people who claim to have "checked out" what was taught in TWI, but have only done so wearing PFAL-colored glasses, i.e., reading scriptures in light of what Wierwille taught, using Wierwille's definitions and Wierwille's assumptions, including made-up definitions of Greek words, distinctions between words that were nonexistant and leaps of illogic.
Tzaia mentioned reading the gospels as written to us, not just "for our learning. That's a great example right there. Wierwille taught (and he may have gotten this from Bullinger) that scripture was either "to us" or "for our learning" (i.e. not to us). When it says that that which was written aforetime was written for our learning, why should we assume that that's the opposite of "to us", or that "for our learning" and "to us" are mutually exclusive. That was a conclusion that Wierwille came to that I don't believe is warranted. Even if you want to believe that some scripture is not written to us, where do you draw the line at "aforetime"? Why Pentecost? Why not before Jesus' ministry? This isn't an agrument against or in favor of "not all scripture is to us", but a point to show that Wierwille's conclusions are not necessarily correct for all that he acted as if his take was the only logical and/or godly conclusion
I was talking to my 19 year old son about this very thing last night. He said, "What do I believe now? Was it all a lie?" All I told him is to take it slow and after all these years, make it your own. God is still God and loves him regardless of what men say or do. Take the simple things he knows are good, such as put away lying and be ye kind one to another and run with those. Because in a cult or not those are just good simple ways of life. I also added as an after thought that if God isn't even real when all this is said and done (which of course I don't believe) we can't go wrong by doing those things that are right and if we die and it was all a lie then all we are is dead anyway so what the heck.
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WordWolf
The Gospels were NOT written before the Epistles.
Even if they HAD been, "by sheer logic", when a Greek word is translated one thing in one
place, it should be so in another place, or the translator is using what vpw called
"private interpretation."
In other places, the word is translated DOCTRINE.
What things were written aforetime, are for our DOCTRINE.
This makes sense, because all Scripture is profitable for doctrine, reproof, correction, instruction in righteousness.
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Research Geek
My advice to those who have left is to do whatever it takes to get healed. Obviously, if you were involved in twi, you love God and want to be right. If you were like most people when you originally got involved you were dissatisfied with your prior religious organization, or if you weren't a believer yet, you were seeking a better life. Notwithstanding some of the hidden faults of twi at that time, something about how the Bible was presented or something about the people in the organization attracted you. (That is how most people decide to fellowship with any church regardless of what that church believes...)
The fact that you have decided to leave implies that what originally attracted you to the organization has changed and/or that you have found out about something that displeases you now. twi has definitely changed from the way it was. In fact it has changed several times. It was one way before all the young people got involved, then when they came in the '70s it changed. Then later when it got big and it instituted its organizational structure, it changed again. Later after vpw died and when lcm's leadership was challenged it changed again and the "fog years" ensued. Many people left or were kicked out. Then lcm emerged from the fog and changed it again. Next, the lawsuits came to light and lcm was expelled. Little did lcm know, but rfr had been manipulating things behind the scenes and soon she put her stamp on the ministry. Next, twi realized that things had gone too far because people were leaving in droves, so they racheted rfr's changes back to a "kinder gentler" version and that is where they are now. Throughout this time people became dissatisfied with the way things were and if they weren't kicked out, they had a choice to either leave or try to change the organization from within.
My point is that whatever the reasons that you left, don't blame God for it. He did not hurt or disappoint you, people did. You are still a precious child of God and you still have the calling that He called you to do. Those things transcend any organization of men. (And they cannot be taken away, nor does God change His mind about them.) Now that you are out, you are going to experience a lot of unexpected things. The familiarity of the fellowship will be gone, you may not have many friends and depending upon the circumstances of your leaving, you may have guilt or emotional issues to deal with. This is a very vulnerable time and some people don't get through it well. Many end up becoming bitter and looking back for the rest of their lives, allowing past events to control them. Don't try to go through this post-exit phase on your own. Don't isolate yourself. You need a friend. You need someone to talk to and help you sort everything out. It is good to re-evaluate things. It is good to check your motives. This time will be a real catharsis. Just hold fast to that which is good. But in the end, you should be better and stronger for it.
God is still there and just like He helped Job, He can help you. So ask Him for help. All the "whosoevers" in the Bible still apply to you no matter what anyone else told you... God will help you. He can find you a friend to talk to. If you need time to think and not get involved with some other organization, that's OK. But it should not be permanent, because you still have a Godly calling and that ministry is directed towards other believers, so it functions best within a body of some kind. When it is time, God can show you where you belong. But to be really healed, you'll need to reach the same point that Job did and be able to genuinely pray for his "friends." If you can get through your catharsis whole, without being vengeful or bitter or calloused, and looking forward to new goals and not living your life controlled by the past and be able to forgive and genuinely pray for those people who hurt you, God will reward you double and you will regain what you lost. That is what is possible and God can get you back on the road to achieving it no matter what state you are in now.
There is a lot you can pray for when you are praying for your "friends". For example, there are a whole lot of people in twi who know things are wrong and have decided to try to change it from within. In the Bible Eli was screwed up so bad that his sons were seducing the women who were coming to the gate for help. I Samuel 3 says that there was no open vision, that means there was no functioning minister who was teaching the real Word of God - they all were pushing something else... Yet even in the midst of all the vile, abusive and wrong things that were going on, God was able to rise up Samuel and eventually Samuel kicked butt and the evil ones got what was coming to them. (God will deal with those who have abused His people in time, and it always is thorough...) So maybe it would be a good thing to pray for those "Samuels", those "7000 who have not bowed their knee" to Baal or whatever other error the abusers have pushed. These reformers should try to do what God wants them to do. They will either succeed or be kicked out. But that is better than doing nothing because of fear...
The goal is to emerge from all this still loving God and still wanting to do what is right. I pray that you get healed and that you will be able to live the rest of your life for Him.
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