Look for him somewhere other than the Bible, someplace other than the church or books about religion. Look for him in a sunset or the changing seasons. Listen for Him in a songbird's melody or a child's laughter. Drink in the flavor of crisp autumn air or inhale the fragrance of newly mowed hay. Feel His presence in the soft texture of a newborn's skin. Look for him by yourself, independently, without someone pointing you to the place they think you might find Him. Look for Him.
i agree, in part...but for what its worth...it seems that...
"somewhere other than the bible" is NOT omnipresent
"someplace other than the church or books about religion" is NOT omnipresent
"without someone pointing" is NOT omnipresent (not to mention how the entire above quote IS "someone pointing")
seems to me "omnipresent" must somehow include all these excluded things
This has been an interesting thread. I’ve followed it but haven’t had anything to post. I guess W & S’s posts jarred something in my head – so here I am with my ramblin’ 2 cents.
Concerning unconfessed sin/God crushing you over it, per the preacher man of Watered Garden’s post #1: This reminded me of TWI’s mindset of the-bad-stuff-that-happened-to-you-is-because-of-a-hole-in-your-believing. And while there are some passages in Proverbs & Psalms that suggest our moral status can have an affect on our physical status – I’m also inclined to think the “sin” in question is something on the order of life-dominating and maybe even would be somewhat obvious to the person if they gave their current status some thought.
Some things just happen because we live in a fallen world and some things we bring on ourselves just because we are fallen creatures.
Of the latter, I’m thinking adultery, stealing, lying, murder - you know, breaking one of the big 10 – whether it’s a one time thing or recurring, they can become life-dominating if I bend everything else in my life around it, to cover it up or to ensure its continuance. A sin is life-dominating when that is what defines me. Ephesians says let him that stole, steal no more – but rather labor so he may have something to give to someone in need. The thief has a life-dominating sin, he’s defined by it - until he becomes someone else – an honest worker.
Another thing is how pontificating it is of someone else to interpret a personal tragedy of mine as a sign from God. What I’ve read of signs in the Bible, as best I can recall offhand – usually God announces ahead of time [before the event] that it will have a certain significance. I would think it’s kind of irresponsible or inefficient or just plain cruel of a benevolent God to let people run around guessing about something “heavy” going on in their life – wondering what God is trying to tell them. This brings me to my last point.
Two years after we left TWI our daughter was born with Down syndrome. Still having so much of TWI’s mental baggage in my head, I’d have these random thoughts like “there must have been a big hole in my believing.. . it’s because I walked out on God” – pretty much typical of the guilt and worry Watered Garden talked about after leaving that loony bin. I tend to over think in situations, asking God “why did this happen to me?” My wife tends to bounce back quicker with a “what do I do now?” attitude. My wife helped me get past my self-centeredness, see our daughter as a person and continues to inspire all of us to support each other. We can’t fix every problem – but we can sure work together through every problem.
Getting back to God’s omnipresence [told ya it’s my ramblin’ 2 cents ] – I do better when I remind myself of Paul’s situation. He kept reminding God about a problem he had [thorn in the flesh] – God said His grace was sufficient for the task.
If we have placed our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone. 1Cor 15:19
Why is that? Isn't it about our best life now? Why are Christian lives so often marked by suffering? Sin? The fall?
VP started a whole ministry on the premise Christians should be prosperous. . . . looked around his church and saw broken people. . . . he didn't like what he saw.
There is a whole health and wealth gospel people preach.
The Apostles were beaten. . . imprisoned, and martyred. . . . didn't God like them? Were they sinning? Didn't they have power?
Makes you wonder if there is more to it. . . . that whole refining fire, scourging, and chastening thing sounds painful. If it is all for this life only. . . .
I will take a pass. I am counting on the last being first. . . . God better keep up His end of the bargain.
Well I have not broken the big 10; don't even covet my neighbor's pickup truck.
I do pray for all the people out there who are being used and abused by wannabes like the aforementioned individuals.
And I do see evidence of the existence of God in other things. And I do see His blessings on my life.
And yeah, there is suffering in this world. I'm not afraid of suffering as much as I fear being misunderstood, and I don't fear that as much as I fear that God hates me for my imperfection.
It just annoys me greatly when people misrepresent God; like T-Bone said it's always YOUR fault and you blew it somewhere. As the first WC grad I talked to after diagnosis said, "Do you understand what it is THAT YOU DID that caused this to happen to you?" Well, lessee, I think we are pretty much giving every spare penny to TWI so it's not the sin of shirking on ABS. I am doing my damndest to learn to be very very meek, humble, submissive, jump through all the hoops to be always in all subjection. I am trying to be blessed about living somewhere 3000 miles from my sick mother, where it rains all the time and I never see the sun. I am very very kind and loving to my son, even when he tells me to go F myself. I am trying to be a groveling idiot, not a woman who loves God and has more than two brain cells. So what DID I do that caused this to happen to me? Oh, I know, I was born wearing the wrong set of genes!
And it ticks me off when I am told that God does not ever heal people any more, because it is God who brings sickness and disease in the first place. If you get hit by a cow pie, it was God who flung it, not Satan. (Satan doesn't need to work too hard these days; Christians think God does all this dang to them instead of the devil, so he can just sit back and laugh his azz off.)
It ticks me off when some know-it-all announces that no one speaks in tongues any more because that died with the apostles. God does not give revelation to just anyone who believes, only the special few. I so wanted to just stand right up and SIT right in his face when he said that.
Could I learn something from Piper, McArthur, Driscoll, Calvin Himself? Maybe. But I don't think I will ever read any of those guys when I so strongly disagree with some of the doctrines which they clutch firmly in their right fist and will never loosen their grip: Election of the few, limited atonement, God is a God of hate, not love (yes, Driscoll said that)and women are inferior subhumans placed on earth to be the servants of men.
Peoples' opinions about God are sometimes wonderful, sometimes not. I'm sure the young pastor I mentioned reads every one of the authors you do. He is a staunch, devoted, Reformed Calvinist who is convinced that Mark Driscoll is the greatest man of God alive today, much as in the early 1970s many of us were convinced that VPW was the greatest man of God alive for that day.
That was another factor in leaving the church plant. I've seen what idolizing an authority figure like that does to idealistic young men. It was not pretty then and it is not pretty now.
This point has me thinking W.G. I've been thinking and it seems like that folks who are led into this kind of unhealthy kind of authority figure worship are most likely to be full of themselves.
Maybe it is because they are youthful and in such a ministry have no example to show them the cost of being puffed up with pride as the scriptures say happens to young leadership.
But is has struck me as something to consider that often those who idolize men tend to be very full of themselves as young men with a so-called ministry.
I think Paul really, really meant it when he told people to count him as the Lord's servant and again to not think too highly of men in Corinth, beyond that which is written, which in my mind seems to be something that was clearly a very important issue to Paul.
Not handling these things correctly seem to be more along the lines of being fleshly sect makers, and there is plenty of warnings about that kind of thing in the scriptures too.
EXACTLY! That was the first "uh-oh" for me. I think I tended to watch behavior and attitudes; Mr. Garden simply decided he didn't agree with the doctrine. I first noticed changes in the young guy, and then checked out his mentor/tupos online, and realized the guy here was emulating the speech, dress, attitudes and actions of the guy on the left coast. It gave me a TWI flashback, ever have one of those? The BL in our last area didn't really remember VPW; he did, however, think LCM was the cat's whiskers, and imitated LCM's speech patterns, dress, mannerisms, even the way LCM moved around the stage. It was deja' vue all over again!
My only regret is that I never got to gently share my heart with the "kid" as to where this may lead him, but I doubt it would have done any good. He is as stubborn as a Missouri mule with his butt in a warm barn and his head out the door in a snowstorm.
But even a Missouri Mule can be reached sometimes. I say that to remind myself that perhaps any of us who happen to have a stubborn streak may be reached.
But in your situation it seems that being cooped up with an unwise yet startlingly aggressive younger man who thinks he's doing a good job of trying to engage the things that are going on in your life would be understandingly uncomfortable.
In your case it seems that a younger man being too full of himself and a ministerial method that IMO resembles carnival fortune telling in some ways did not work for you. But like TWI did for some, perhaps if this minister's methods had caused you to face some deep, dark secret along with him you might have even now been extolling this younger man's greatness as this younger man seems to be doing when it comes to his teachers.
I'm just saying that for consideration WG. Not because I think you would have fallen for it. I'm just glad you did not.
I think God relates to us in ways we can understand. He made us and knows us, and knows how weak and stupid we are (Ps 103).
I don't want anyone to think I do not appreciate those who focus on the majesty and glory of God; that was one thing I liked about this New Calvinist church plant. But other than that, I'm extremely blessed to be where I am now, doing what I do and being able to freely give my all for His Highest without fear of being deemed worthless. The blood of Jesus made me worthy, nothing else.
Well, a point I'd like to make is that Jesus Christ paid for all my sins with His death on the cross. I think this pastor was encouraging me to continue to walk around in guilt and fear. I don't think I want to do that.
Roy, this guy's problem is that he is a Calvinist and believes more what people say about God than he believes God. We left the church plant some months ago and attend another church which we like better.
Kimberly, you're right - this doesn't make a lick of sense. But both this church plant and the one before it seemed to thrive on pointing fingers. I was made to feel second rate and unworthy to so much as sweep the floor after they ran the class that dumped this load of doctrine on me like manure out of a barn.
This guy taught Jonah as evidence of God crushing you until you repent and obey. He scorned anything we said that was different from his own narrow little set of beliefs. He doesn't seem to realize God loves us.
I mentioned last night to Mr. Garden that I wish I had pointed out to this guy that Jesus died for my sins and thus my sins are forgiven, confessed or not confessed, so why would God kick my butt without telling me why. That's like if your kid is sitting at the table quietly doing his homework, and you storm into the room, yank him out of his chair and beat the s#it out of him, then just leave the room without saying anything. Not only are you leaving a bruised, bewildered kid in your wake, but he isn't likely to want to be around you after much of that.
(Of course this guy also told me that comparing God to a human parent is blasphemy; I guess he forgot that Jesus did the same.)
WG
Hi WG,
If we want forgiveness from the Lord, you have to confess. Nowhere does it state that our sins, transgressions or iniquities are automatically forgiven, except at the very beginning. This being complete grace. After this, you must confess (I need to do so daily) to get back into right fellowship with the Lord. As far as Jonah, you can look at it as abusive, I guess, but perhaps it's bette to look at it as The Almighty's Taxi Service for recalcitrant servants.
As far as your former pastor is concerned, he was probably thinking of the gospel account ( don't have my bible for the exact book) where Jesus is healing the blind man from birth and his disciples ask him, "who sinned?" Jesus states neither the man or his parents. But just a few accounts later??? another healing is taking place and Jesus tells the man "go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you." Obviously, sometimes sin does bring about physical illnesses, but it isn't to be applied to all. You would need prophetic revelation from the Holy Spirit as to what is causing the illness. For example: if you are living a homosexual lifestyle and you contract AIDS from it, then you are reaping from your sinful lifestyle. Same thing as regarding drug abusers contracting AIDS or hepatitis from using dirty needles.
Blessings
No, he's not mean or cruel, but he seems to think God is! He doesn't seem to recognize evil for what it is and thus believes that everything that happens "passes through the hands of God" to receive His approval.
He is young, however, and does not seem to be me to be particularly mature. I would have been happy to discuss more with him, but he was getting worked up and I was NOT going to allow him to put me on the defensive.
As I recall, Jesus told more than one person "go and sin no more" and certainly that would be foolish, not to mention the height of ingratitude, being healed by Jesus Himself and then going right back to what made him sick in the first place.
WG
If he was getting worked up, then he was unsure of his own beliefs, but quoting what his denomination spews out and your questions put him on the defensive.
I'm curious how you reconcile this with the scripture that says God is not a respecter of persons. (ie: treats everyone equally). I really don't believe your interpretation of that passage is accurate. What you've stated is a Calvinist approach to pre-destiny
God is not practicing the "respect of certain people" WS, as I just wrote today, if you are living a life of sin as per se homosexuality and you contract AIDS...is God giving you the AIDS or did YOU open yourself up to it by living a sinful lifestyle. You should already know the answer. God simply states that we are to not live sinfully, because HE knows that sometimes it will affect our physical health.
I really like reading John Piper. . . . especially his work on the attributes of God. Seems to me he knows the Lord and well. . . . . . I love listening to Matt Chandler. . . . great preacher. . . . and just because they are both Calvinist doesn't mean I can't learn from them.
Matt Chandler is friends with Mark Driscoll, although I can't figure out why. . . . but, nothing like him. I love RC Sproul, he is a brilliant man. . . . do I believe everything he says without question? No. . . . but, I do learn from him and benefit from his teaching.
John MacArthur mostly scares me.
I enjoy reading Reformed Theology and although I don't get the whole predestination thing. . . . I still appreciate the high view of God they hold.
Many of the New Calvinist preachers really know God. . . . I wouldn't ever declare them not initiated.
The only thing that are to be PREDESTINED to is to be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON! Sproul is very well educated and yess......MacArthur scares me as well, but probably for different reasons than you.
If we have placed our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone. 1Cor 15:19
Why is that? Isn't it about our best life now? Why are Christian lives so often marked by suffering? Sin? The fall?
VP started a whole ministry on the premise Christians should be prosperous. . . . looked around his church and saw broken people. . . . he didn't like what he saw.
There is a whole health and wealth gospel people preach.
The Apostles were beaten. . . imprisoned, and martyred. . . . didn't God like them? Were they sinning? Didn't they have power?
Makes you wonder if there is more to it. . . . that whole refining fire, scourging, and chastening thing sounds painful. If it is all for this life only. . . .
I will take a pass. I am counting on the last being first. . . . God better keep up His end of the bargain.
The Lord Jesus was very clear on this matter Geisha...He said that if anyone TRULY followed HIM, they would also be persecuted, suffer in various ways. The servant is not above their Master. So when we are suffering due to our stand upon the Word of God, we shouldn't be surprised. As far as to the Apostles being beaten and God not liking them.....having myself been going through harrowing times regarding my stand upon the Word of God...I'm looking at the whole situation a lot differently these days. I think now it is to God's Glory when you suffer because of your belief on Him and you refuse to recant your faith or your stance no matter hard they are pounding on you to run you off (unfortunately, a lot of this has been coming from self-proclaimed Christians) because you don't harbor the same beliefs as them. But isn't this what Jesus was persecuted for? The upper Jews persecuted him because they viewed Jesus as someone who was departing from the traditional teachings, even though He was correcting their doctrines. Which they hated Him for because He was showing the error of their ways before all people.
Could I learn something from Piper, McArthur, Driscoll, Calvin Himself? Maybe. But I don't think I will ever read any of those guys when I so strongly disagree with some of the doctrines which they clutch firmly in their right fist and will never loosen their grip: Election of the few, limited atonement, God is a God of hate, not love (yes, Driscoll said that)and women are inferior subhumans placed on earth to be the servants of men.
Nope. Wouldn't want to waste my time.
WG
Please don't! This is why MacArthur scares the hell right out of me. His view of women. This is also what the Mormons believe as well. That women cannot get into heaven unless their husband points at them at the judgement seat and proclaims that she was a good wife. Just another way to subject women and keep them walking three paces behind the man.
I then think of the Lord Jesus who lovingly told Mary to sit right down with the men (probably right next to his knee) and learn right along with the men. How this must have shocked the men in that group that the Lord Jesus was allowing a woman to sit at his feet as a true disciple. I stand in awe of a man who was a true MAN.
This point has me thinking W.G. I've been thinking and it seems like that folks who are led into this kind of unhealthy kind of authority figure worship are most likely to be full of themselves.
Maybe it is because they are youthful and in such a ministry have no example to show them the cost of being puffed up with pride as the scriptures say happens to young leadership.
But is has struck me as something to consider that often those who idolize men tend to be very full of themselves as young men with a so-called ministry.
I think Paul really, really meant it when he told people to count him as the Lord's servant and again to not think too highly of men in Corinth, beyond that which is written, which in my mind seems to be something that was clearly a very important issue to Paul.
Not handling these things correctly seem to be more along the lines of being fleshly sect makers, and there is plenty of warnings about that kind of thing in the scriptures too.
(spelling)
Hi Jeff,
This is because in Corinth, they had a faction of SUPER-APOSTLES, of which they did not accept Paul.
Thanks for your well thought out answers. I don't wail about having IDDM, it's a part of life, and to say "we live in a broken world" is like the understatement of the milennia. The problem I had with the whole thing about that was just that people were telling me it's some sin you've committed and God will "crush" you until you recognize and confess it. Holy Spirit tells me, "Well, why NOT you?" and to get on with my life and live it for HIM not cowering because I might not be good enough.
The young pastor likes "crush." He preached a Father's Day sermon on how fathers must crush their children, not build their self-esteem, but crush them so they understand they are worthless, useless, helpless and hopeless, but crush them "in the direction of God." He preached on Jonah and God crushing him. And I think you are right, he didn't have a real answer so he got all blustery. He also waved aside any scripture references I might have had to offer - a woman couldn't possibly understand the Bible, now could she?
The Lord Jesus was very clear on this matter Geisha...He said that if anyone TRULY followed HIM, they would also be persecuted, suffer in various ways. The servant is not above their Master. So when we are suffering due to our stand upon the Word of God, we shouldn't be surprised. As far as to the Apostles being beaten and God not liking them.....having myself been going through harrowing times regarding my stand upon the Word of God...I'm looking at the whole situation a lot differently these days. I think now it is to God's Glory when you suffer because of your belief on Him and you refuse to recant your faith or your stance no matter hard they are pounding on you to run you off (unfortunately, a lot of this has been coming from self-proclaimed Christians) because you don't harbor the same beliefs as them. But isn't this what Jesus was persecuted for? The upper Jews persecuted him because they viewed Jesus as someone who was departing from the traditional teachings, even though He was correcting their doctrines. Which they hated Him for because He was showing the error of their ways before all people.
I was being ironic. I really need to work on that. . . . it is my way of making a point without really coming out and saying it. :) I am only responding here because I saw you!
You know, this whole topic makes me very uncomfortable because I think it spills over into hyperbole. I went back and read the thread and saw I had mentioned Matt Chandler. On Thanksgiving he collapsed and had a seizure. They found a tumor in his frontal lobe and after surgery the pathology was that it was cancerous. He is a young guy, 35, with a wife and 3 small children. He is the Pastor of a church in Texas. Highland Village Church.
I have been watching the Facebook sites they have for updates and messages. The overwhelming response from all over the world of prayer and concern caught everyone by surprise. It is huge. He is a beloved Pastor. He has people from everywhere in various denominations praying for his healing.
Not once have I read a word about unconfessed sin or God's unwillingness to heal him fully from any of these new calvinists. . . I do read prayers that God be glorified through this and a distinction between their hope in the Lord and prayer for healing. . . . but, people are praying for Matt to be healed. Not a soul is telling him God doesn't heal.
There is a pretty wide range in new calvinism beliefs. The pastor of the Acts 29 church plant we attended stated plainly that God no longer heals. He stated that God allowed healing to draw attention to the ministry of Jesus and then for a while to the ministry of the early church. I don't doubt that others do believe in healing. This guy doesn't believe in any of the "gifts" or manifestations or whatever you want to call them, as listed in Ephesians(?).
I had heard somewhere about Matt Chandler and I pray for him too though you won't see my name on any list.
WG, my experience with people like you describe (whether pastor or lay) is that they either haven't lived long enough to have something really bad happen for which there is no "reason," lived hard enough to have to deal with outcomes, or perhaps they are working feverishly to cover up their own transgressions by paying more attention to other's (apparent) transgressions.
The truth is that what the guy said was absurd. Babies, who know nothing about sin are stricken with illnesses. My tendency would be to think it's due more to bad karma over unconfessed sin. At least that makes sense. Your situation was more than likely a genetic propensity towards IDDM coupled with stress and conditions that caused your autoimmune system to start acting up. Having IDDM FORCES you to take proper care of yourself or you die. For all you know, could have been God's way of forcing you to stay out of harm's way. It seems to serve as a natural repellent to over-involvement in harmful religious organizations.
I won't go so far as to say Mark Driscoll is a lunatic, but he's definitely got the mind for it and a good start.
I do worship planning with a Mark Driscoll junkie and I keep telling him that there's more to attracting the boy/men to church than trying to make a man cave out of the church.
There is a pretty wide range in new calvinism beliefs. The pastor of the Acts 29 church plant we attended stated plainly that God no longer heals. He stated that God allowed healing to draw attention to the ministry of Jesus and then for a while to the ministry of the early church. I don't doubt that others do believe in healing. This guy doesn't believe in any of the "gifts" or manifestations or whatever you want to call them, as listed in Ephesians(?).
I had heard somewhere about Matt Chandler and I pray for him too though you won't see my name on any list.
WG
Sounds like your former pastor needs prayer for healing of his faith in the Lord's greatness to heal even today.
Just a thought here, but 1 John is the only place that talks about confessing our sin that I can think of offhand. Seems out of place to take one verse and make a doctrine that is so widely accepted and practiced as if it were a major deal. if it were a major deal, it would be all over the Word like grace and peace and speaking the Word. Maybe we should take another look at that verse & rethink it if it doesn't fit with other verses.
Don't confess sin. Confess the Word of deliverance from sin, yes?
Bless the Lord, oh, my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
Bless the Lord, oh my soul, and forget not all his benefits.
Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases.
Who redeems your life from destruction, who crowns your life with loving kindness and tender mercies.
Just a thought here, but 1 John is the only place that talks about confessing our sin that I can think of offhand. Seems out of place to take one verse and make a doctrine that is so widely accepted and practiced as if it were a major deal. if it were a major deal, it would be all over the Word like grace and peace and speaking the Word. Maybe we should take another look at that verse & rethink it if it doesn't fit with other verses.
Don't confess sin. Confess the Word of deliverance from sin, yes?
Bless the Lord, oh, my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
Bless the Lord, oh my soul, and forget not all his benefits.
Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases.
Who redeems your life from destruction, who crowns your life with loving kindness and tender mercies.
Just a thought here, but 1 John is the only place that talks about confessing our sin that I can think of offhand. Seems out of place to take one verse and make a doctrine that is so widely accepted and practiced as if it were a major deal. if it were a major deal, it would be all over the Word like grace and peace and speaking the Word. Maybe we should take another look at that verse & rethink it if it doesn't fit with other verses.
Don't confess sin. Confess the Word of deliverance from sin, yes?
Bless the Lord, oh, my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
Bless the Lord, oh my soul, and forget not all his benefits.
Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases.
Who redeems your life from destruction, who crowns your life with loving kindness and tender mercies.
Tom
I tend to think confession of sin may be something one can infer from passages that address the sin/forgiveness scenario, in that BEFORE one is forgiven there needs to be a change of heart – an acknowledgement of wrong-doing, which is in essence a confession of sin – and I would assume the admission of sin & guilt should be given to the offended party or parties.
I'm thinking of something Jesus said in Luke 17 1-4 [NIV]
1Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
Noting the sequence: a brother sins, you rebuke him, he REPENTS, you forgive him. I've capitalized "REPENTS" as being the confession or acknowledgement phase of this scenario. The offended party is not God of course – so the only way they could assume that the offender has responded to the rebuke is by some outward sign of the person to indicate they have indeed repented [an admission of guilt, apology, crying, whatever].
~~
And thinking a little more on the whole forgiveness topic in light of repentance being a necessary pre-condition – I think when it comes to one of the first most significant acts of forgiveness [when we first came to Christ for salvation] – the way I understand it – and I could be wrong – God does not forgive us first. We must come to Him realizing we are sinners – maybe you could consider it an overall confession of our sinful state thus far – not like we have to list every sin we ever committed or anything – just acknowledging our current spiritual status or something along those lines. From that point we receive the forgiveness – already paid for by Christ's sacrifice. That may relate in some way to an Ephesians passage on foregiveness-
Ephesians 4:32 NIV
32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Our model for forgiveness is how God forgave us in Christ – something He freely grants to those who turn to Him in their darkest hour when they simply acknowledge they are guilty and want to make amends – before they're even off their knees God pronounces it a "done deal" – not over what the sinner did – but what Christ had already done on Calvary - all the sinner does is accept that.
~~
And picking up on you saying I John the only place that mentions confessing our sin – I wanted to throw in an Old Testament passage along similar lines:
Proverbs 18:13 NIV
3 He who conceals his sins does not prosper,
but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.
Without making it into a big ritual prescribed by some religious group – I think confession of sin by the sinner to the offended party is a natural part of the whole forgiveness & reconciliation thing.
~~
A worthy study may be checking out the Greek word "homologeo" used for "confess" - which means to admit, acknowledge, confess, profess: used in a positive way as in a profession of faith - in Luke 12:8,9; Romans 10:9, 10; Philippians 2:11. and in negative way as in a confession of sin in I John 1:8-10; James 5:16 and aCTS 19:18, 19.
I tend to think confession of sin may be something one can infer from passages that address the sin/forgiveness scenario, in that BEFORE one is forgiven there needs to be a change of heart – an acknowledgement of wrong-doing, which is in essence a confession of sin – and I would assume the admission of sin & guilt should be given to the offended party or parties.
I'm thinking of something Jesus said in Luke 17 1-4 [NIV]
1Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
Noting the sequence: a brother sins, you rebuke him, he REPENTS, you forgive him. I've capitalized "REPENTS" as being the confession or acknowledgement phase of this scenario. The offended party is not God of course – so the only way they could assume that the offender has responded to the rebuke is by some outward sign of the person to indicate they have indeed repented [an admission of guilt, apology, crying, whatever].
~~
And thinking a little more on the whole forgiveness topic in light of repentance being a necessary pre-condition – I think when it comes to one of the first most significant acts of forgiveness [when we first came to Christ for salvation] – the way I understand it – and I could be wrong – God does not forgive us first. We must come to Him realizing we are sinners – maybe you could consider it an overall confession of our sinful state thus far – not like we have to list every sin we ever committed or anything – just acknowledging our current spiritual status or something along those lines. From that point we receive the forgiveness – already paid for by Christ's sacrifice. That may relate in some way to an Ephesians passage on foregiveness-
Ephesians 4:32 NIV
32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Our model for forgiveness is how God forgave us in Christ – something He freely grants to those who turn to Him in their darkest hour when they simply acknowledge they are guilty and want to make amends – before they're even off their knees God pronounces it a "done deal" – not over what the sinner did – but what Christ had already done on Calvary - all the sinner does is accept that.
~~
And picking up on you saying I John the only place that mentions confessing our sin – I wanted to throw in an Old Testament passage along similar lines:
Proverbs 18:13 NIV
3 He who conceals his sins does not prosper,
but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.
Without making it into a big ritual prescribed by some religious group – I think confession of sin by the sinner to the offended party is a natural part of the whole forgiveness & reconciliation thing.
~~
A worthy study may be checking out the Greek word "homologeo" used for "confess" - which means to admit, acknowledge, confess, profess: used in a positive way as in a profession of faith - in Luke 12:8,9; Romans 10:9, 10; Philippians 2:11. and in negative way as in a confession of sin in I John 1:8-10; James 5:16 and aCTS 19:18, 19.
No offense intended T-Bone, but
I tend to think confession of sin may be something one can infer from passages that address the sin/forgiveness scenario, in that BEFORE one is forgiven there needs to be a change of heart – an acknowledgement of wrong-doing, which is in essence a confession of sin – and I would assume the admission of sin & guilt should be given to the offended party or parties.
That's tending, inferring, & assuming - all to address what you accept as a scenario. That's a wee bit scary to me. It reminds me of when I might go to the doctor complaining of some symptoms. The doctor informs me I'm suffering from xyz Syndrome. It sounds like he knows what he's talking about. He even has a name for it. Now he can start assuming, inferring, & tending to prescribe on what he's already decided is a scenario - my scenario. It sounds like putting the cart before the horse. I’d like to inspect a little more the particulars that we are assuming belong in the cart.
As a matter of fact, T-Bone, I agree with much of what you say. I certainly think that between and among us humans, confession of fault to the offended party that we may be healed is wise; although, not necessarily required for healing or part of any accepted scenario to be carried out – likewise with rebuking and forgiving. I think Jesus Christ operates on a higher plane than that, and we are to love like he loved/loves.
You said, “"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you... Our model for forgiveness is how God forgave us in Christ – something He freely grants to those who turn to Him in their darkest hour when they simply acknowledge they are guilty and want to make amends – before they're even off their knees God pronounces it a "done deal" – not over what the sinner did – but what Christ had already done on Calvary - all the sinner does is accept that."
How was God forgiving us in Christ if he wasn’t granting it to us until we were repenting. Was he forgiving us by the offering of his son, when he should have been rebuking us?
No, he was forgiving us even before we repented.
What is the nature of this amazing love? “God commends [favorably introduces] his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Is God going to favorably introduce the nature of his love as Christ dying for us (for our forgiveness, no?) when we were sinners, & now change the defining nature of his love to the exact opposite point in which we must confess our sins before we can have forgiveness?
God forbid. Even so, Jesus, while dying said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
That’s the nature of God’s love in Christ that we are to imitate. The defining nature is to forgive before the sinner asks. It’s a higher calling. Of course, we are still to walk honestly before God, an honesty that includes an acceptance of his absolute forgiveness in Christ while we were yet sinners, & a response to love (& forgive) others – the honest response to the nature of God’s love – not the confession of sin of those who have offended us.
All this being as it may be, IMO, this reference to unconfessed (and unspecified) sin that is causing disease that started this thread was inspired by co-horts of the dark side meant to instill doubt, condemnation, & guilt. It’s classic, no?
That's tending, inferring, & assuming - all to address what you accept as a scenario. That's a wee bit scary to me. It reminds me of when I might go to the doctor complaining of some symptoms. The doctor informs me I'm suffering from xyz Syndrome. It sounds like he knows what he's talking about. He even has a name for it. Now he can start assuming, inferring, & tending to prescribe on what he's already decided is a scenario - my scenario. It sounds like putting the cart before the horse. I'd like to inspect a little more the particulars that we are assuming belong in the cart.
As a matter of fact, T-Bone, I agree with much of what you say. I certainly think that between and among us humans, confession of fault to the offended party that we may be healed is wise; although, not necessarily required for healing or part of any accepted scenario to be carried out – likewise with rebuking and forgiving. I think Jesus Christ operates on a higher plane than that, and we are to love like he loved/loves.
You said, ""Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you... Our model for forgiveness is how God forgave us in Christ – something He freely grants to those who turn to Him in their darkest hour when they simply acknowledge they are guilty and want to make amends – before they're even off their knees God pronounces it a "done deal" – not over what the sinner did – but what Christ had already done on Calvary - all the sinner does is accept that."
How was God forgiving us in Christ if he wasn't granting it to us until we were repenting. Was he forgiving us by the offering of his son, when he should have been rebuking us?
No, he was forgiving us even before we repented.
What is the nature of this amazing love? "God commends [favorably introduces] his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us." Is God going to favorably introduce the nature of his love as Christ dying for us (for our forgiveness, no?) when we were sinners, & now change the defining nature of his love to the exact opposite point in which we must confess our sins before we can have forgiveness?
God forbid. Even so, Jesus, while dying said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
That's the nature of God's love in Christ that we are to imitate. The defining nature is to forgive before the sinner asks. It's a higher calling. Of course, we are still to walk honestly before God, an honesty that includes an acceptance of his absolute forgiveness in Christ while we were yet sinners, & a response to love (& forgive) others – the honest response to the nature of God's love – not the confession of sin of those who have offended us.
...
Tom, no offense taken and I don’t have an issue with what you’re saying – just wanted to elaborate or maybe clarify on some things I’ve said.
I really like your going-to-the-doctor analogy – maybe for a different reason than what you had in mind – but anyway, the thinking behind my post was from a practical application viewpoint – specifically a wounded relationship scenario, and perhaps the “doctor” in this scenario would be a friend or counselor trying to help mend a broken relationship. I tend to think the whole point of pressing for contrition & forgiveness between both parties is for reconciliation – a healing of the relationship.
Can the offended party forgive anyway – even if the offender doesn’t agree with them that an offense ever took place? Absolutely. Can their relationship continue on as if nothing happened? I don’t think so. I think it will make matters worse – on both sides. Looking at a little more of the context of the Ephesians passage I referenced earlier leads me to think unresolved conflicts can gender more sin – even by the offended party who was innocent to begin with – in that resentment, bitterness, anger and such may fester in their hearts:
Ephesians 4:26-32 NIV
26"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
~~
I was not arguing to pin down a doctrinal point or some time line of when forgiveness actually takes place or is granted [whether by God or offended party]. For as you pointed out in the Luke 23:34 reference of Jesus’ asking God to forgive those putting Him to death – considering we are all sinners and guess in some cosmic/timelessness of perhaps God’s viewpoint – we all had a part in putting Him to death as well [in that our dreadful spiritual condition necessitated such a drastic measure as the sacrifice of His Son].
And I believe God answered Jesus’ prayer! That truly makes salvation accessible to everyone. And I guess from the perspective of lesser beings bound by space & time – our description would place the act of forgiveness before the act of repentance. Now if someone refuses God's offer of salvation/forgiveness - how can a closer relationship develop between God and the sinner? I don't see how it can.
So maybe in the context of real-time relationships, repentance is a significant aspect - and perhaps my earlier Luke 17 reference warrants some further thought - Jesus talking about forgiveness and reviewing the sequence again – Jesus DID say if he repents, forgive him. That “if” makes me think maybe there's something lacking in a simplistic idea of dispensing forgiveness so freely – at least there’s a lot more to this scenario – no?
I get the impression that it's putting some sort of burden on the offender - in other words they don't get let off the hook so easily. Maybe Jesus wasn't so much saying something about when to grant forgiveness as how true reconciliation can begin. But I dunno - there's a whole lot more to this stuff than I can take in with a brief discussion. We humans are certainly complicated social beings, no?
...
I'm thinking of something Jesus said in Luke 17 1-4 [NIV]
1Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
Noting the sequence: a brother sins, you rebuke him, he REPENTS, you forgive him. I've capitalized "REPENTS" as being the confession or acknowledgement phase of this scenario. The offended party is not God of course – so the only way they could assume that the offender has responded to the rebuke is by some outward sign of the person to indicate they have indeed repented [an admission of guilt, apology, crying, whatever].
Without making it into a big ritual prescribed by some religious group – I think confession of sin by the sinner to the offended party is a natural part of the whole forgiveness & reconciliation thing.
...
All this being as it may be, IMO, this reference to unconfessed (and unspecified) sin that is causing disease that started this thread was inspired by co-horts of the dark side meant to instill doubt, condemnation, & guilt. It's classic, no?
Hey, Merry Christmas!
A few weeks ago when we left a church plant, the pastor told me I am diabetic either due to "the fall" or to unconfessed sin. Now I know what he meant by the fall, but "unconfessed sin" I cannot remember hearing explained. Apparently, this is a sin you commit that you (a) don't know is a sin, or (b) know you sinned and are trying to hide it from God, haven't confessed it because you don't want to admit it or think it's all right secondary to living in the grace administration, or what have you. This gentleman seems to think God is crushing me because of some unconfessed sin, and He is crushing me with disease.
I can't think of any Biblical reference for this, and was wondering if anyone else knew.
Thanks
WG
Yes – I agree with what you’re saying here about the manipulative nature & erroneous thinking of those mentioned in Watered Garden’s first post:
I thought I was clear on addressing that issue in my post # 28 and don’t feel the need to re-hash it again – but simply to stress that I am NOT addressing the issues of post # 1 in my post # 48 nor in this current post. I’ve been talking about the impact to RELATIONSHIPS that un-confessed sin may have. The context of the I John reference you brought up in your post # 45 talks about more than just the mere act of confessing sin – for it also draws a bigger picture showing how it affects our RELATIONSHIP with God
I John 1:5-10 NIV
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
There’s a timeless aspect with the passage referring to the blood of Jesus [which has already been shed] purifying us. I guess doctrinally speaking at the time of conversion all our sins are forgiven – past, present and future! Realistically speaking I know we still sin after conversion – so confession of sin can’t be a thing to regain acceptance necessarily as it is to remove some self-erected barrier screwing up my relationship with God. And in that regard – whether it’s a relationship with God or our fellowman – I see confession of sin as a means to reconciliation – a healing, a restoration of a broken relationship.
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T-Bone
Good stuff Waysider & Sirguessalot! This has been an interesting thread. I’ve followed it but haven’t had anything to post. I guess W & S’s posts jarred something in my head – so here I am
sirguessalot
i agree, in part...but for what its worth...it seems that... "somewhere other than the bible" is NOT omnipresent "someplace other than the church or books about religion" is NOT omnipresent "witho
sky4it
And I don't disagree with this one bit Shellon, in fact I never did. And you are 100 percent correct in that, what anothers experience is, at times the actual facts differ from what we can reasonably
sirguessalot
i agree, in part...but for what its worth...it seems that...
"somewhere other than the bible" is NOT omnipresent
"someplace other than the church or books about religion" is NOT omnipresent
"without someone pointing" is NOT omnipresent (not to mention how the entire above quote IS "someone pointing")
seems to me "omnipresent" must somehow include all these excluded things
...just saying
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T-Bone
Good stuff Waysider & Sirguessalot!
This has been an interesting thread. I’ve followed it but haven’t had anything to post. I guess W & S’s posts jarred something in my head – so here I am with my ramblin’ 2 cents.
Concerning unconfessed sin/God crushing you over it, per the preacher man of Watered Garden’s post #1: This reminded me of TWI’s mindset of the-bad-stuff-that-happened-to-you-is-because-of-a-hole-in-your-believing. And while there are some passages in Proverbs & Psalms that suggest our moral status can have an affect on our physical status – I’m also inclined to think the “sin” in question is something on the order of life-dominating and maybe even would be somewhat obvious to the person if they gave their current status some thought.
Some things just happen because we live in a fallen world and some things we bring on ourselves just because we are fallen creatures.
Of the latter, I’m thinking adultery, stealing, lying, murder - you know, breaking one of the big 10 – whether it’s a one time thing or recurring, they can become life-dominating if I bend everything else in my life around it, to cover it up or to ensure its continuance. A sin is life-dominating when that is what defines me. Ephesians says let him that stole, steal no more – but rather labor so he may have something to give to someone in need. The thief has a life-dominating sin, he’s defined by it - until he becomes someone else – an honest worker.
Another thing is how pontificating it is of someone else to interpret a personal tragedy of mine as a sign from God. What I’ve read of signs in the Bible, as best I can recall offhand – usually God announces ahead of time [before the event] that it will have a certain significance. I would think it’s kind of irresponsible or inefficient or just plain cruel of a benevolent God to let people run around guessing about something “heavy” going on in their life – wondering what God is trying to tell them. This brings me to my last point.
Two years after we left TWI our daughter was born with Down syndrome. Still having so much of TWI’s mental baggage in my head, I’d have these random thoughts like “there must have been a big hole in my believing.. . it’s because I walked out on God” – pretty much typical of the guilt and worry Watered Garden talked about after leaving that loony bin. I tend to over think in situations, asking God “why did this happen to me?” My wife tends to bounce back quicker with a “what do I do now?” attitude. My wife helped me get past my self-centeredness, see our daughter as a person and continues to inspire all of us to support each other. We can’t fix every problem – but we can sure work together through every problem.
Getting back to God’s omnipresence [told ya it’s my ramblin’ 2 cents
] – I do better when I remind myself of Paul’s situation. He kept reminding God about a problem he had [thorn in the flesh] – God said His grace was sufficient for the task.
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geisha779
That reminds me of this verse T-Bone. . . .
If we have placed our hope in Christ for this life only, we should be pitied more than anyone. 1Cor 15:19
Why is that? Isn't it about our best life now? Why are Christian lives so often marked by suffering? Sin? The fall?
VP started a whole ministry on the premise Christians should be prosperous. . . . looked around his church and saw broken people. . . . he didn't like what he saw.
There is a whole health and wealth gospel people preach.
The Apostles were beaten. . . imprisoned, and martyred. . . . didn't God like them? Were they sinning? Didn't they have power?
Makes you wonder if there is more to it. . . . that whole refining fire, scourging, and chastening thing sounds painful. If it is all for this life only. . . .
I will take a pass. I am counting on the last being first. . . . God better keep up His end of the bargain.
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Watered Garden
Well I have not broken the big 10; don't even covet my neighbor's pickup truck.
I do pray for all the people out there who are being used and abused by wannabes like the aforementioned individuals.
And I do see evidence of the existence of God in other things. And I do see His blessings on my life.
And yeah, there is suffering in this world. I'm not afraid of suffering as much as I fear being misunderstood, and I don't fear that as much as I fear that God hates me for my imperfection.
It just annoys me greatly when people misrepresent God; like T-Bone said it's always YOUR fault and you blew it somewhere. As the first WC grad I talked to after diagnosis said, "Do you understand what it is THAT YOU DID that caused this to happen to you?" Well, lessee, I think we are pretty much giving every spare penny to TWI so it's not the sin of shirking on ABS. I am doing my damndest to learn to be very very meek, humble, submissive, jump through all the hoops to be always in all subjection. I am trying to be blessed about living somewhere 3000 miles from my sick mother, where it rains all the time and I never see the sun. I am very very kind and loving to my son, even when he tells me to go F myself. I am trying to be a groveling idiot, not a woman who loves God and has more than two brain cells. So what DID I do that caused this to happen to me? Oh, I know, I was born wearing the wrong set of genes!
And it ticks me off when I am told that God does not ever heal people any more, because it is God who brings sickness and disease in the first place. If you get hit by a cow pie, it was God who flung it, not Satan. (Satan doesn't need to work too hard these days; Christians think God does all this dang to them instead of the devil, so he can just sit back and laugh his azz off.)
It ticks me off when some know-it-all announces that no one speaks in tongues any more because that died with the apostles. God does not give revelation to just anyone who believes, only the special few. I so wanted to just stand right up and SIT right in his face when he said that.
Could I learn something from Piper, McArthur, Driscoll, Calvin Himself? Maybe. But I don't think I will ever read any of those guys when I so strongly disagree with some of the doctrines which they clutch firmly in their right fist and will never loosen their grip: Election of the few, limited atonement, God is a God of hate, not love (yes, Driscoll said that)and women are inferior subhumans placed on earth to be the servants of men.
Nope. Wouldn't want to waste my time.
WG
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JeffSjo
This point has me thinking W.G. I've been thinking and it seems like that folks who are led into this kind of unhealthy kind of authority figure worship are most likely to be full of themselves.
Maybe it is because they are youthful and in such a ministry have no example to show them the cost of being puffed up with pride as the scriptures say happens to young leadership.
But is has struck me as something to consider that often those who idolize men tend to be very full of themselves as young men with a so-called ministry.
I think Paul really, really meant it when he told people to count him as the Lord's servant and again to not think too highly of men in Corinth, beyond that which is written, which in my mind seems to be something that was clearly a very important issue to Paul.
Not handling these things correctly seem to be more along the lines of being fleshly sect makers, and there is plenty of warnings about that kind of thing in the scriptures too.
(spelling)
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Watered Garden
Jeff -
EXACTLY! That was the first "uh-oh" for me. I think I tended to watch behavior and attitudes; Mr. Garden simply decided he didn't agree with the doctrine. I first noticed changes in the young guy, and then checked out his mentor/tupos online, and realized the guy here was emulating the speech, dress, attitudes and actions of the guy on the left coast. It gave me a TWI flashback, ever have one of those? The BL in our last area didn't really remember VPW; he did, however, think LCM was the cat's whiskers, and imitated LCM's speech patterns, dress, mannerisms, even the way LCM moved around the stage. It was deja' vue all over again!
My only regret is that I never got to gently share my heart with the "kid" as to where this may lead him, but I doubt it would have done any good. He is as stubborn as a Missouri mule with his butt in a warm barn and his head out the door in a snowstorm.
There's a lot more, but I have to get to work.
Very perceptive, Jeff! Thanks!
WG
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JeffSjo
I hear you WG!
But even a Missouri Mule can be reached sometimes. I say that to remind myself that perhaps any of us who happen to have a stubborn streak may be reached.
But in your situation it seems that being cooped up with an unwise yet startlingly aggressive younger man who thinks he's doing a good job of trying to engage the things that are going on in your life would be understandingly uncomfortable.
In your case it seems that a younger man being too full of himself and a ministerial method that IMO resembles carnival fortune telling in some ways did not work for you. But like TWI did for some, perhaps if this minister's methods had caused you to face some deep, dark secret along with him you might have even now been extolling this younger man's greatness as this younger man seems to be doing when it comes to his teachers.
I'm just saying that for consideration WG. Not because I think you would have fallen for it. I'm just glad you did not.
(edited for spelling and grammar)
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Watered Garden
I think God relates to us in ways we can understand. He made us and knows us, and knows how weak and stupid we are (Ps 103).
I don't want anyone to think I do not appreciate those who focus on the majesty and glory of God; that was one thing I liked about this New Calvinist church plant. But other than that, I'm extremely blessed to be where I am now, doing what I do and being able to freely give my all for His Highest without fear of being deemed worthless. The blood of Jesus made me worthy, nothing else.
WG
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brideofjc
Who was that? I wonder if I knew her?
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brideofjc
Hi WG,
If we want forgiveness from the Lord, you have to confess. Nowhere does it state that our sins, transgressions or iniquities are automatically forgiven, except at the very beginning. This being complete grace. After this, you must confess (I need to do so daily) to get back into right fellowship with the Lord. As far as Jonah, you can look at it as abusive, I guess, but perhaps it's bette to look at it as The Almighty's Taxi Service for recalcitrant servants.
As far as your former pastor is concerned, he was probably thinking of the gospel account ( don't have my bible for the exact book) where Jesus is healing the blind man from birth and his disciples ask him, "who sinned?" Jesus states neither the man or his parents. But just a few accounts later??? another healing is taking place and Jesus tells the man "go and sin no more lest a worse thing come upon you." Obviously, sometimes sin does bring about physical illnesses, but it isn't to be applied to all. You would need prophetic revelation from the Holy Spirit as to what is causing the illness. For example: if you are living a homosexual lifestyle and you contract AIDS from it, then you are reaping from your sinful lifestyle. Same thing as regarding drug abusers contracting AIDS or hepatitis from using dirty needles.
Blessings
If he was getting worked up, then he was unsure of his own beliefs, but quoting what his denomination spews out and your questions put him on the defensive.
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brideofjc
God is not practicing the "respect of certain people" WS, as I just wrote today, if you are living a life of sin as per se homosexuality and you contract AIDS...is God giving you the AIDS or did YOU open yourself up to it by living a sinful lifestyle. You should already know the answer. God simply states that we are to not live sinfully, because HE knows that sometimes it will affect our physical health.
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brideofjc
The only thing that are to be PREDESTINED to is to be CONFORMED TO THE IMAGE OF HIS SON! Sproul is very well educated and yess......MacArthur scares me as well, but probably for different reasons than you.
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brideofjc
The Lord Jesus was very clear on this matter Geisha...He said that if anyone TRULY followed HIM, they would also be persecuted, suffer in various ways. The servant is not above their Master. So when we are suffering due to our stand upon the Word of God, we shouldn't be surprised. As far as to the Apostles being beaten and God not liking them.....having myself been going through harrowing times regarding my stand upon the Word of God...I'm looking at the whole situation a lot differently these days. I think now it is to God's Glory when you suffer because of your belief on Him and you refuse to recant your faith or your stance no matter hard they are pounding on you to run you off (unfortunately, a lot of this has been coming from self-proclaimed Christians) because you don't harbor the same beliefs as them. But isn't this what Jesus was persecuted for? The upper Jews persecuted him because they viewed Jesus as someone who was departing from the traditional teachings, even though He was correcting their doctrines. Which they hated Him for because He was showing the error of their ways before all people.
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brideofjc
Could I learn something from Piper, McArthur, Driscoll, Calvin Himself? Maybe. But I don't think I will ever read any of those guys when I so strongly disagree with some of the doctrines which they clutch firmly in their right fist and will never loosen their grip: Election of the few, limited atonement, God is a God of hate, not love (yes, Driscoll said that)and women are inferior subhumans placed on earth to be the servants of men.
Nope. Wouldn't want to waste my time.
WG
Please don't! This is why MacArthur scares the hell right out of me. His view of women. This is also what the Mormons believe as well. That women cannot get into heaven unless their husband points at them at the judgement seat and proclaims that she was a good wife. Just another way to subject women and keep them walking three paces behind the man.
I then think of the Lord Jesus who lovingly told Mary to sit right down with the men (probably right next to his knee) and learn right along with the men. How this must have shocked the men in that group that the Lord Jesus was allowing a woman to sit at his feet as a true disciple. I stand in awe of a man who was a true MAN.
Hi Jeff,
This is because in Corinth, they had a faction of SUPER-APOSTLES, of which they did not accept Paul.
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Watered Garden
Welcome back, Bride!!!!
Thanks for your well thought out answers. I don't wail about having IDDM, it's a part of life, and to say "we live in a broken world" is like the understatement of the milennia. The problem I had with the whole thing about that was just that people were telling me it's some sin you've committed and God will "crush" you until you recognize and confess it. Holy Spirit tells me, "Well, why NOT you?" and to get on with my life and live it for HIM not cowering because I might not be good enough.
The young pastor likes "crush." He preached a Father's Day sermon on how fathers must crush their children, not build their self-esteem, but crush them so they understand they are worthless, useless, helpless and hopeless, but crush them "in the direction of God." He preached on Jonah and God crushing him. And I think you are right, he didn't have a real answer so he got all blustery. He also waved aside any scripture references I might have had to offer - a woman couldn't possibly understand the Bible, now could she?
Glad to see you back!
WG
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geisha779
I was being ironic. I really need to work on that. . . . it is my way of making a point without really coming out and saying it. :) I am only responding here because I saw you!
You know, this whole topic makes me very uncomfortable because I think it spills over into hyperbole. I went back and read the thread and saw I had mentioned Matt Chandler. On Thanksgiving he collapsed and had a seizure. They found a tumor in his frontal lobe and after surgery the pathology was that it was cancerous. He is a young guy, 35, with a wife and 3 small children. He is the Pastor of a church in Texas. Highland Village Church.
I have been watching the Facebook sites they have for updates and messages. The overwhelming response from all over the world of prayer and concern caught everyone by surprise. It is huge. He is a beloved Pastor. He has people from everywhere in various denominations praying for his healing.
Not once have I read a word about unconfessed sin or God's unwillingness to heal him fully from any of these new calvinists. . . I do read prayers that God be glorified through this and a distinction between their hope in the Lord and prayer for healing. . . . but, people are praying for Matt to be healed. Not a soul is telling him God doesn't heal.
I think he explains their understanding quite well on this video http://fm.thevillage...
. . . . I love this Pastor. . . he has a wonderful heart for God.
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Watered Garden
There is a pretty wide range in new calvinism beliefs. The pastor of the Acts 29 church plant we attended stated plainly that God no longer heals. He stated that God allowed healing to draw attention to the ministry of Jesus and then for a while to the ministry of the early church. I don't doubt that others do believe in healing. This guy doesn't believe in any of the "gifts" or manifestations or whatever you want to call them, as listed in Ephesians(?).
I had heard somewhere about Matt Chandler and I pray for him too though you won't see my name on any list.
WG
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Tzaia
WG, my experience with people like you describe (whether pastor or lay) is that they either haven't lived long enough to have something really bad happen for which there is no "reason," lived hard enough to have to deal with outcomes, or perhaps they are working feverishly to cover up their own transgressions by paying more attention to other's (apparent) transgressions.
The truth is that what the guy said was absurd. Babies, who know nothing about sin are stricken with illnesses. My tendency would be to think it's due more to bad karma over unconfessed sin. At least that makes sense. Your situation was more than likely a genetic propensity towards IDDM coupled with stress and conditions that caused your autoimmune system to start acting up. Having IDDM FORCES you to take proper care of yourself or you die. For all you know, could have been God's way of forcing you to stay out of harm's way. It seems to serve as a natural repellent to over-involvement in harmful religious organizations.
I won't go so far as to say Mark Driscoll is a lunatic, but he's definitely got the mind for it and a good start.
I do worship planning with a Mark Driscoll junkie and I keep telling him that there's more to attracting the boy/men to church than trying to make a man cave out of the church.
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brideofjc
Sounds like your former pastor needs prayer for healing of his faith in the Lord's greatness to heal even today.
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Tom
Just a thought here, but 1 John is the only place that talks about confessing our sin that I can think of offhand. Seems out of place to take one verse and make a doctrine that is so widely accepted and practiced as if it were a major deal. if it were a major deal, it would be all over the Word like grace and peace and speaking the Word. Maybe we should take another look at that verse & rethink it if it doesn't fit with other verses.
Don't confess sin. Confess the Word of deliverance from sin, yes?
Bless the Lord, oh, my soul, and all that is within me, bless his holy name.
Bless the Lord, oh my soul, and forget not all his benefits.
Who forgives all your iniquities, Who heals all your diseases.
Who redeems your life from destruction, who crowns your life with loving kindness and tender mercies.
Tom
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Watered Garden
Thanks, Tom!
WG
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T-Bone
I tend to think confession of sin may be something one can infer from passages that address the sin/forgiveness scenario, in that BEFORE one is forgiven there needs to be a change of heart – an acknowledgement of wrong-doing, which is in essence a confession of sin – and I would assume the admission of sin & guilt should be given to the offended party or parties.
I'm thinking of something Jesus said in Luke 17 1-4 [NIV]
1Jesus said to his disciples: "Things that cause people to sin are bound to come, but woe to that person through whom they come. 2It would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a millstone tied around his neck than for him to cause one of these little ones to sin. 3So watch yourselves.
"If your brother sins, rebuke him, and if he repents, forgive him. 4If he sins against you seven times in a day, and seven times comes back to you and says, 'I repent,' forgive him."
Noting the sequence: a brother sins, you rebuke him, he REPENTS, you forgive him. I've capitalized "REPENTS" as being the confession or acknowledgement phase of this scenario. The offended party is not God of course – so the only way they could assume that the offender has responded to the rebuke is by some outward sign of the person to indicate they have indeed repented [an admission of guilt, apology, crying, whatever].
~~
And thinking a little more on the whole forgiveness topic in light of repentance being a necessary pre-condition – I think when it comes to one of the first most significant acts of forgiveness [when we first came to Christ for salvation] – the way I understand it – and I could be wrong – God does not forgive us first. We must come to Him realizing we are sinners – maybe you could consider it an overall confession of our sinful state thus far – not like we have to list every sin we ever committed or anything – just acknowledging our current spiritual status or something along those lines. From that point we receive the forgiveness – already paid for by Christ's sacrifice. That may relate in some way to an Ephesians passage on foregiveness-
Ephesians 4:32 NIV
32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
Our model for forgiveness is how God forgave us in Christ – something He freely grants to those who turn to Him in their darkest hour when they simply acknowledge they are guilty and want to make amends – before they're even off their knees God pronounces it a "done deal" – not over what the sinner did – but what Christ had already done on Calvary - all the sinner does is accept that.
~~
And picking up on you saying I John the only place that mentions confessing our sin – I wanted to throw in an Old Testament passage along similar lines:
Proverbs 18:13 NIV
3 He who conceals his sins does not prosper,
but whoever confesses and renounces them finds mercy.
Without making it into a big ritual prescribed by some religious group – I think confession of sin by the sinner to the offended party is a natural part of the whole forgiveness & reconciliation thing.
~~
A worthy study may be checking out the Greek word "homologeo" used for "confess" - which means to admit, acknowledge, confess, profess: used in a positive way as in a profession of faith - in Luke 12:8,9; Romans 10:9, 10; Philippians 2:11. and in negative way as in a confession of sin in I John 1:8-10; James 5:16 and aCTS 19:18, 19.
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Tom
No offense intended T-Bone, but
That's tending, inferring, & assuming - all to address what you accept as a scenario. That's a wee bit scary to me. It reminds me of when I might go to the doctor complaining of some symptoms. The doctor informs me I'm suffering from xyz Syndrome. It sounds like he knows what he's talking about. He even has a name for it. Now he can start assuming, inferring, & tending to prescribe on what he's already decided is a scenario - my scenario. It sounds like putting the cart before the horse. I’d like to inspect a little more the particulars that we are assuming belong in the cart.
As a matter of fact, T-Bone, I agree with much of what you say. I certainly think that between and among us humans, confession of fault to the offended party that we may be healed is wise; although, not necessarily required for healing or part of any accepted scenario to be carried out – likewise with rebuking and forgiving. I think Jesus Christ operates on a higher plane than that, and we are to love like he loved/loves.
You said, “"Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you... Our model for forgiveness is how God forgave us in Christ – something He freely grants to those who turn to Him in their darkest hour when they simply acknowledge they are guilty and want to make amends – before they're even off their knees God pronounces it a "done deal" – not over what the sinner did – but what Christ had already done on Calvary - all the sinner does is accept that."
How was God forgiving us in Christ if he wasn’t granting it to us until we were repenting. Was he forgiving us by the offering of his son, when he should have been rebuking us?
No, he was forgiving us even before we repented.
What is the nature of this amazing love? “God commends [favorably introduces] his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.” Is God going to favorably introduce the nature of his love as Christ dying for us (for our forgiveness, no?) when we were sinners, & now change the defining nature of his love to the exact opposite point in which we must confess our sins before we can have forgiveness?
God forbid. Even so, Jesus, while dying said, "Father, forgive them for they know not what they do."
That’s the nature of God’s love in Christ that we are to imitate. The defining nature is to forgive before the sinner asks. It’s a higher calling. Of course, we are still to walk honestly before God, an honesty that includes an acceptance of his absolute forgiveness in Christ while we were yet sinners, & a response to love (& forgive) others – the honest response to the nature of God’s love – not the confession of sin of those who have offended us.
All this being as it may be, IMO, this reference to unconfessed (and unspecified) sin that is causing disease that started this thread was inspired by co-horts of the dark side meant to instill doubt, condemnation, & guilt. It’s classic, no?
Hey, Merry Christmas!
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T-Bone
Tom, no offense taken and I don’t have an issue with what you’re saying – just wanted to elaborate or maybe clarify on some things I’ve said.
I really like your going-to-the-doctor analogy – maybe for a different reason than what you had in mind – but anyway, the thinking behind my post was from a practical application viewpoint – specifically a wounded relationship scenario, and perhaps the “doctor” in this scenario would be a friend or counselor trying to help mend a broken relationship. I tend to think the whole point of pressing for contrition & forgiveness between both parties is for reconciliation – a healing of the relationship.
Can the offended party forgive anyway – even if the offender doesn’t agree with them that an offense ever took place? Absolutely. Can their relationship continue on as if nothing happened? I don’t think so. I think it will make matters worse – on both sides. Looking at a little more of the context of the Ephesians passage I referenced earlier leads me to think unresolved conflicts can gender more sin – even by the offended party who was innocent to begin with – in that resentment, bitterness, anger and such may fester in their hearts:
Ephesians 4:26-32 NIV
26"In your anger do not sin": Do not let the sun go down while you are still angry, 27and do not give the devil a foothold. 28He who has been stealing must steal no longer, but must work, doing something useful with his own hands, that he may have something to share with those in need.
29Do not let any unwholesome talk come out of your mouths, but only what is helpful for building others up according to their needs, that it may benefit those who listen. 30And do not grieve the Holy Spirit of God, with whom you were sealed for the day of redemption. 31Get rid of all bitterness, rage and anger, brawling and slander, along with every form of malice. 32Be kind and compassionate to one another, forgiving each other, just as in Christ God forgave you.
~~
I was not arguing to pin down a doctrinal point or some time line of when forgiveness actually takes place or is granted [whether by God or offended party]. For as you pointed out in the Luke 23:34 reference of Jesus’ asking God to forgive those putting Him to death – considering we are all sinners and guess in some cosmic/timelessness of perhaps God’s viewpoint – we all had a part in putting Him to death as well [in that our dreadful spiritual condition necessitated such a drastic measure as the sacrifice of His Son].
And I believe God answered Jesus’ prayer! That truly makes salvation accessible to everyone. And I guess from the perspective of lesser beings bound by space & time – our description would place the act of forgiveness before the act of repentance. Now if someone refuses God's offer of salvation/forgiveness - how can a closer relationship develop between God and the sinner? I don't see how it can.
So maybe in the context of real-time relationships, repentance is a significant aspect - and perhaps my earlier Luke 17 reference warrants some further thought - Jesus talking about forgiveness and reviewing the sequence again – Jesus DID say if he repents, forgive him. That “if” makes me think maybe there's something lacking in a simplistic idea of dispensing forgiveness so freely – at least there’s a lot more to this scenario – no?
I get the impression that it's putting some sort of burden on the offender - in other words they don't get let off the hook so easily. Maybe Jesus wasn't so much saying something about when to grant forgiveness as how true reconciliation can begin. But I dunno - there's a whole lot more to this stuff than I can take in with a brief discussion. We humans are certainly complicated social beings, no?
Yes – I agree with what you’re saying here about the manipulative nature & erroneous thinking of those mentioned in Watered Garden’s first post:
I thought I was clear on addressing that issue in my post # 28 and don’t feel the need to re-hash it again – but simply to stress that I am NOT addressing the issues of post # 1 in my post # 48 nor in this current post. I’ve been talking about the impact to RELATIONSHIPS that un-confessed sin may have. The context of the I John reference you brought up in your post # 45 talks about more than just the mere act of confessing sin – for it also draws a bigger picture showing how it affects our RELATIONSHIP with God
I John 1:5-10 NIV
5This is the message we have heard from him and declare to you: God is light; in him there is no darkness at all. 6If we claim to have fellowship with him yet walk in the darkness, we lie and do not live by the truth. 7But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship with one another, and the blood of Jesus, his Son, purifies us from all sin.
8If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word has no place in our lives.
There’s a timeless aspect with the passage referring to the blood of Jesus [which has already been shed] purifying us. I guess doctrinally speaking at the time of conversion all our sins are forgiven – past, present and future! Realistically speaking I know we still sin after conversion – so confession of sin can’t be a thing to regain acceptance necessarily as it is to remove some self-erected barrier screwing up my relationship with God. And in that regard – whether it’s a relationship with God or our fellowman – I see confession of sin as a means to reconciliation – a healing, a restoration of a broken relationship.
~~
And a Merry Christmas to you too!
T-Bone
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