I don't imagine anyone who fell into a pile of manure thinks looking back at it that they were in it just about the right amount of time either.
Wow, I love the analogy. Perhaps in my case it was more like Quick Sand because I kept getting in deeper and deeper but really wanted to crawl my way out.
...a profound avoidance of very vital states and conditions...like silence, stillness, darkness, depth, obscurity, mystery, uncertainty, etc...
...a resisting of an ordinary and important change in life ... when our thoughts start moving from the subjective background of our experience and become objects in our experience...that "oh, i am not my thoughts and feelings ...because here they are" moment
ya know...all those lights, sounds, feelings we experience on our inside ...when we close our eyes ...try to go to sleep...or are simply thinking...meditating...dreaming...resting...dying
in spite of all else...if vpw was imagining how people were talking sh!t about his teachings, and if he was starting to become able to notice his own interior, but RESISTED owning those objects as being a part of his own self...he may see these sights and sounds and feelings (esp. those he liked least of all) as invading objects from somewhere outside...somewhere uncertain ... and therefore somewhere dangerous ...aka "demons" trying to get in
even further...rather than admit to his self that these objects are actually inside of him, coming from him, and are a part of him (aka “his”)…he further interprets them as his supernatural vision of what is actually happening outside of him...”a vision of the demon realm plotting his destruction”...so he re-creates stories and languages and theologies and cultures to support his interpretation of his own imagination.
and he may have resisted taking responsibility for such "visions of demons" til his deathbed...or maybe he woke up about it a bit towards the end
...happens sometimes
regardless... to add to this kind of mess...the systemized attempt to somehow bypass by surpassing any and all developed psychological or spiritual disciplines and histories...
basically cuts out most all of the ways confidentiality and privacy have been developed and applied in many many fields of life...including deeply christian ones
yet...engaging directly with these sorts of things (one's interior experience) with compassion (and precision) was indeed The "baby's milk" of early christianity, such as can be seen in monasticism...which is at or near the root of all ancient forms of religious experiences and histories ...including jewish and christian ones. and this included "codes" and "rules" about how to handle confidentiality of deeply personal information conveyed during periods of sharing or guidance.
these resistances seem to point even more to TWI's (and others') severe disconnection from roots of not only the heart of Christianity...but from any doctrine or practice that values a rigorous taking responsibility for one's own self-reflection, self-examination and self-awareness as a most direct way to "love thy neighbor as self" ... and "bring peace on earth and goodwill towards all" ...or otherwise live in service to All-in-All by taking personal responsibility for our own crazy human animal natures
not "end here"...but "start here"
and "first take the beam out" ... “the first shall be last,” ...etc
but of course TWI is also a product of the tides of history...in a historically disconnected time...which seems like one very very big ongoing "father forgive them for they know not what they do" moment
but not only have most modern forms of religions more or less failed to deliver in this regard...neither modernity nor postmodernity can seem to notice these kinds of differences either
must have something to do with what we are trying to learn now
a side note...and not at all to discount why waysider used it in this thread...
"shhhhhh" was used in ancient religious forms
...not because it was a secret cult of opportunists and followers who had dirty secrets to keep and protect...but because it served as a reminder that silence and stillness are the "ground of being" that All is in...which is also essentially somewhere at or very near "the ground" of all religious history
and "shhh" also served as a reminder that though we may make words and art and such that represent the absolute, NONE of it is the same as that which it is pointing at. The absolute totality of any such "God" or "ultimate absolute truth and reality" is beyond the scope of our tongue...or pen...or hypertext
in other words...dont forget that "the map is NOT the territory"...and by doing so we are free to make better and better maps and languages ...but if we think what we are saying is something absolutely true ...then "shhhhh" ... perhaps take a vow of silence until we learn how to speak again...that sort of thing.
and "shhh" was also a useful reminder to protect a sensitive trade secret or skill...like "keeping guns out of the hands of children" ...or protecting specialized and developed processes from being co-opted and abused... or protecting the methods and practices of religious orders from being twisted
in some traditions...even some of the simplest meditation techniques were considered "too hot to handle"...and in the hands of those who were not prepared can often lead to a mere reinforcing of the ego's game. A good reason to "shhhh."
But this is a period of global information ...where all the cats are coming out of all the bags. I pray for a very loud "shhhh" that might shut up the plastic shamans, hedonistic gurus, cultic fundamentalisms, flat scientisms, and pop-spiritualities.
in spite of all else...if vpw was imagining how people were talking sh!t about his teachings, and if he was starting to become able to notice his own interior, but RESISTED owning those objects as being a part of his own self...he may see these sights and sounds and feelings (esp. those he liked least of all) as invading objects from somewhere outside...somewhere uncertain ... and therefore somewhere dangerous ...aka "demons" trying to get in
even further...rather than admit to his self that these objects are actually inside of him, coming from him, and are a part of him (aka “his”)…he further interprets them as his supernatural vision of what is actually happening outside of him...”a vision of the demon realm plotting his destruction”...so he re-creates stories and languages and theologies and cultures to support his interpretation of his own imagination.
and he may have resisted taking responsibility for such "visions of demons" til his deathbed...or maybe he woke up about it a bit towards the end
...happens sometimes
I too wonder what Wierwille may or may not have held himself accountable to at the end of his life too. But unfortunately it seems to me that the best TWI ever managed to do was supposedly quote obscure little sayings of Wierwille's that may or may not indicate that he took responsibility. That is how I remember POP as it relates to Wierwille's inner accountability. And also unfortunately but perhaps standard operating procedure for vary tip-top TWI leadership they seemed adept at giving out just enough information to allow anyone to come to whatever conclusion they wish while not being clear enough to allow any ACTUAL ACCOUNTABILITY for actions worthy of condemnation.
But back to Waysider's point.....
I think your assessment of how Wierwille formed his view of the spirit realm based mostly on his own delusions and insecurities is very reasonable Sirguessalot.
And for me it also is reasonable that any organization built upon the self-serving delusions of a man like Wierwille would eventually allow the very perception of "devils" to be used to control people in such mean, damaging, sometimes evil, and often petty ways. And the consensus here seems to be that is exactly what happened in TWI.
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taxicab
Wow, I love the analogy. Perhaps in my case it was more like Quick Sand because I kept getting in deeper and deeper but really wanted to crawl my way out.
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JeffSjo
I thought the analogy would be a better way than to just give you sh!t about your choices. (Pun intended
)
Heck, I was in once too.
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sirguessalot
seems to be patterns in all this
...a profound avoidance of very vital states and conditions...like silence, stillness, darkness, depth, obscurity, mystery, uncertainty, etc...
...a resisting of an ordinary and important change in life ... when our thoughts start moving from the subjective background of our experience and become objects in our experience...that "oh, i am not my thoughts and feelings ...because here they are" moment
ya know...all those lights, sounds, feelings we experience on our inside ...when we close our eyes ...try to go to sleep...or are simply thinking...meditating...dreaming...resting...dying
in spite of all else...if vpw was imagining how people were talking sh!t about his teachings, and if he was starting to become able to notice his own interior, but RESISTED owning those objects as being a part of his own self...he may see these sights and sounds and feelings (esp. those he liked least of all) as invading objects from somewhere outside...somewhere uncertain ... and therefore somewhere dangerous ...aka "demons" trying to get in
even further...rather than admit to his self that these objects are actually inside of him, coming from him, and are a part of him (aka “his”)…he further interprets them as his supernatural vision of what is actually happening outside of him...”a vision of the demon realm plotting his destruction”...so he re-creates stories and languages and theologies and cultures to support his interpretation of his own imagination.
and he may have resisted taking responsibility for such "visions of demons" til his deathbed...or maybe he woke up about it a bit towards the end
...happens sometimes
regardless... to add to this kind of mess...the systemized attempt to somehow bypass by surpassing any and all developed psychological or spiritual disciplines and histories...
basically cuts out most all of the ways confidentiality and privacy have been developed and applied in many many fields of life...including deeply christian ones
yet...engaging directly with these sorts of things (one's interior experience) with compassion (and precision) was indeed The "baby's milk" of early christianity, such as can be seen in monasticism...which is at or near the root of all ancient forms of religious experiences and histories ...including jewish and christian ones. and this included "codes" and "rules" about how to handle confidentiality of deeply personal information conveyed during periods of sharing or guidance.
these resistances seem to point even more to TWI's (and others') severe disconnection from roots of not only the heart of Christianity...but from any doctrine or practice that values a rigorous taking responsibility for one's own self-reflection, self-examination and self-awareness as a most direct way to "love thy neighbor as self" ... and "bring peace on earth and goodwill towards all" ...or otherwise live in service to All-in-All by taking personal responsibility for our own crazy human animal natures
not "end here"...but "start here"
and "first take the beam out" ... “the first shall be last,” ...etc
but of course TWI is also a product of the tides of history...in a historically disconnected time...which seems like one very very big ongoing "father forgive them for they know not what they do" moment
but not only have most modern forms of religions more or less failed to deliver in this regard...neither modernity nor postmodernity can seem to notice these kinds of differences either
must have something to do with what we are trying to learn now
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sirguessalot
a side note...and not at all to discount why waysider used it in this thread...
"shhhhhh" was used in ancient religious forms
...not because it was a secret cult of opportunists and followers who had dirty secrets to keep and protect...but because it served as a reminder that silence and stillness are the "ground of being" that All is in...which is also essentially somewhere at or very near "the ground" of all religious history
and "shhh" also served as a reminder that though we may make words and art and such that represent the absolute, NONE of it is the same as that which it is pointing at. The absolute totality of any such "God" or "ultimate absolute truth and reality" is beyond the scope of our tongue...or pen...or hypertext
in other words...dont forget that "the map is NOT the territory"...and by doing so we are free to make better and better maps and languages ...but if we think what we are saying is something absolutely true ...then "shhhhh" ... perhaps take a vow of silence until we learn how to speak again...that sort of thing.
and "shhh" was also a useful reminder to protect a sensitive trade secret or skill...like "keeping guns out of the hands of children" ...or protecting specialized and developed processes from being co-opted and abused... or protecting the methods and practices of religious orders from being twisted
in some traditions...even some of the simplest meditation techniques were considered "too hot to handle"...and in the hands of those who were not prepared can often lead to a mere reinforcing of the ego's game. A good reason to "shhhh."
But this is a period of global information ...where all the cats are coming out of all the bags. I pray for a very loud "shhhh" that might shut up the plastic shamans, hedonistic gurus, cultic fundamentalisms, flat scientisms, and pop-spiritualities.
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JeffSjo
I too wonder what Wierwille may or may not have held himself accountable to at the end of his life too. But unfortunately it seems to me that the best TWI ever managed to do was supposedly quote obscure little sayings of Wierwille's that may or may not indicate that he took responsibility. That is how I remember POP as it relates to Wierwille's inner accountability. And also unfortunately but perhaps standard operating procedure for vary tip-top TWI leadership they seemed adept at giving out just enough information to allow anyone to come to whatever conclusion they wish while not being clear enough to allow any ACTUAL ACCOUNTABILITY for actions worthy of condemnation.
But back to Waysider's point.....
I think your assessment of how Wierwille formed his view of the spirit realm based mostly on his own delusions and insecurities is very reasonable Sirguessalot.
And for me it also is reasonable that any organization built upon the self-serving delusions of a man like Wierwille would eventually allow the very perception of "devils" to be used to control people in such mean, damaging, sometimes evil, and often petty ways. And the consensus here seems to be that is exactly what happened in TWI.
(edited for grammar)
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taxicab
Where can I hide my teaching so the devil can't get it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5G7bGBUlx2M
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cheranne
Just thinking!
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