But God is love. And I don't say that sarcastically, I believe it with all my heart. But He is also holy and He is a righteous judge and when love and judgment clash, apparently, judgment wins. CM says we're not to live in fear of judgment. The Apostle Peter thought otherwise.
Love and judgement don't clash. If that work is not done with love it's not a work that will abide anyway. Love is the work. If it's not done with love it will not do anything good for anyone.
"hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"
If you don't stay with love you will loose that hope and return to something else. Doesn't say you will loose eternal life.
Look at what some people have to do to get back to love after what twi did to them. Raped, encouraged suicide, talked 'em into abortions and more. If they can do it they will be rewarded. It takes WORK to love. And that work goes on between the ears.
Even if they can't quite bring themselves to love on certain enemies, it does not mean that they will loose eternal life, God still loves them and will never stop loving them.
God looks on the heart, remember, not the outward appearance of works. Some things may seem like the work of the Lord, but looking a little deeper, look for the love.
Got a bible on your computer? Look up the phrase "in love".
1 John 4: 16And we have known and believed (past tense) the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19We love him, because he first loved us
fear hath torment
perfect love casteth out fear
pass the time of your sojourning here in fear-fear of not walking in love. Without love your works are meaningless. Faith because of love, believing because of love, works because of love.
Not by threats of loosing eternal life. We see that God loved us first when he Gives that eternal life-he will not take it back.
he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him
Yes, dwell in it, bake in it, relax in it. Have confidence in it.
18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
but in deed and in truth-can only be done from love
The commandment is love-that's how we assure our hearts. And dwell in him-dwell in that love. Then from there you can do good works.
Good works is not shoving laws down peoples throat. Who's deciding what faithfulness is? God is. Man should mind his own ******* business and leave other people alone on what faithfulness is.
Man is not God. When he trys to be the judge he's trying to be God.
Let God show you the way. He is within us. We were made that way. God is our father. Adam didn't loose spirit, just lost sight of it and made himself bigger then God, he didn't eat of the tree of life which is Christ. Jesus opened the door for all to enter. But the way is narrow. Make yourself small, meek, humble to enter. Love is the ticket my friend. Not rules and regulations.
2 Thessolonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
This all happens within the mind. That selfish man of sin making himself god has to be taken out of the way. Loose yourself to find the Christ within who is our life. Then you will see the Lord coming, that Spirit within. And that brightness will do a few things.
And it happens over time not all at once. Noone could handle it all at once. It's a never ending unfolding revealing, if we stay in love, eat it slowly and let it digest, don't take on more then you can handle. Where we can keep our balance is staying in love. And not fall back into selfishness and make what you have seen a god itself.
We carry around with us this dead body, the old man. Once we shed this mortal body and have the completeness of the new spiritual one, which lies underneath, we will know even as we are known.
The battle is that we do not let that selfish old man nature rule. Let Christ rule in your hearts. And we will all blow it at times, not to worry though. God loves us, and will not forsake us.
I just did a little study on all the verses in King James that include both the word "judgment" & the "mercy." I think when people are talking about love, they are refering to the quality of mercy.
I just want to point out that mercy & judgment are not at odds; they are in harmonious relationship.
These are all the verses:
Psalms 89:14 Â Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
Psalms 101:1  ¶<<A Psalm of David.>> I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O LORD, will I sing.
Isaiah 16:5 Â And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.
Isaiah 30:18  ¶And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him [the reason God has mercy is BECAUSE he is a God of judgment].
Hosea 12:6 Â Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually.
Zechariah 7:9 Â Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy [showing mercy & compassion is true judgment]and compassions every man to his brother:
Matthew 23:23 Â Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
1 Corinthians 7:25  ¶Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
James 2:13 Â For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Many of those same verses can be used to show either that salvation is permanent or that it is not.
I think that one of the misconceptions that reconciles many of the apparent contradictions is the business about the unrighteous not inheriting the kingdom of God. We equate inheriting the kingdom of God with salvation. I think that is unwarranted. Our eternal life starts - from our perpsective - when we are saved. Like the children of Israel, we each have a piece of the promised land already given to us. But also like the children of Israel - Joshua 1:3 Â Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses - we have to walk to appropriate the inheritance.
Walk, not according to our own works to be saved, but according to works that God prepared for those who have the spirit to walk in to appropriate for themselves their inheritance within the body of Christ.
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
BTW, JB, your statement that God had all those people in the book of Job killed just to prove a point about Job is without biblical foundation. The Word doesn't say so; neither should you.
Romans says we are saved by or to hope. There is something essentially salvation-like about the hope of the resurrections and the gathering together. Even when Jesus Christ gets raised, God says "This day have I begotten thee," right? Yes, here it is, Acts 13:33 Â God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Sure rings of being born again to me. But that is not to discount being born again in this life. 1 Peter 1:23 Â Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Romans that says that we are saved to hope, also says Romans 8:26  ¶Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities... "Likewise" like what? Like the hope - check this out - the whole walk in the spirit described in Romans 8 is like the hope - NOW.
If we know we are save by or to hope, we don't fret - we have patience because it is a certainty, not a maybe thing. Likewise, the spirit brings to bear in this life the reality of the glorified Christ sitting at the right hand of God as we are changed to be like him - now, all things working for good as we love him.
BTW, speaking of love: Romans 5:8 Â But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Commend means to favorably introduce. What was favorable about God's introduction to us of his love? That even though we were sinners, Christ died for us. Now I ask you - would God introduce his love for us as such that Christ died for us when we were sinners - and then say that now his love has changed - his introduction of what his love was no longer applies - now you better watch out that you don't get cut off because something can separate you from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord?
I feel like I've left this thread hanging in mid air....which is ok I guess, but let's add a little more to it...
Look what John said about Jesus-
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
He took it away and some keep trying to give it back to you.
Ya know I think most of the time faithfulness is not doing things more than doing things. And faithfulness to your calling? Who really knows what their calling is completely. It's something you grow into.
Faith...that unseen factor that's alive and real.
Some how we've been lead to believe that everything is just going to pop into our heads and bingo you got everything you need for life and godliness.
You do have everything you need but realizing it is something the Lord will teach you and it will not go against the bible, with the help of others who pick up on your seeking trail, and it will go right along with bible and life itself. But we need to open up a little and not be so rigid on doctrines which men come up with.
Everyone knows there are contradictions in the bible. Those are on the surface. We need to see more than what's on the surface.
John 7:45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? 46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.
"Never man spake like this man"
Not like anything they have ever heard. And I'm sure they heard a lot from the chief priests and pharisees. Certainly worthy of considering and reflection.
John 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law
"him which believeth in Jesus"
Seems to me we should consider what Jesus said.
He said believe on me....there's more to it than at first glance and it's not a code of rules and regulations. He said whatever he hears from his Father he says. That's in the here and now. But lets try not to go on tangents on one thing or another. Patience, temperance, knowing.....
Let's get in tune with that first, and not get into making what Paul, Peter and the rest of those who wrote the bible into rules. What they wrote was to specific people at specific times in their lives. Remember it's for our learning.
And what the lord says is for you to do, or learn and/or help someone, not for you to tell someone else to do. Of course we point out things that will hurt people-that is love too.
Yeah...such closeness with the Lord can be a frightening thought. That's why love is so important to understand and live. Without it we would surely be lost into a never ending battle of what we are to do and not do. And end up just giving up or get into telling people laws to live by.
One of the most dynamic and astounding statements Jesus said is;
Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God
Pure in heart...no other motive but love and a deep desire to know. Not for personal gain or power over people, but for love-loving Him because he loved us first.
---
Proverbs 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. 13 There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. 14 There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.
If salvation is not forever, then Jesus wasted his time on the cross, and the resurrection doesn't mean a thing. If we only have victory in the flesh, then we are all doomed.
Not a one of us will ever get in the door because we sin all the time. Even the righteous ones fall. It is in our nature.
That's why we have grace, to get us through the tough times.
Even in the OT it was grace and not works that got people in the door. God looks at the heart.
Obedience is vital. God says he desires it more than sacrifice. But He knows we will fall.
In that vein, we must not cheapen grace, nor abuse it, but we must not place extra burdens on ourselves or others. Jesus says his yoke his light, why add to it.
To teach that more rules and regs are needed negates the cross.
Live in the freedom/liberty that Christ has given you. Enjoy the release from the burden of sin. And let's help each other along, and not place stumblingblocks in their path.
"Live in the freedom/liberty that Christ has given you. Enjoy the release from the burden of sin."
This statement and its context in the rest of your post presents an extremely beautiful truth. If so much of the sickness that we see around us and in us is due to stress, then an acceptance of what you shared has got to effectually produce the most healing of all.
Even if it wasn't about the cross - where, of course, Jesus took all our sin and sickness upon himself.
Which, of course, he did. And that's why it works that way.
But thank you for your fresh perspective born of your own intimate knowing.
This is the new testament. This is faith with works. This is how we assure our hearts before Him. This is how all will know Him from the least to the greatest. Noone will need to teach it to you because He lives in your heart. Love is giving not taking. It's power, love energizing faith.
We love. Some can't understand love without sex. They just can't see it. They will never understand it and get past their own lusts. And it's a shame.
Or some see love as a wimpy type thing. That's not what God's love is.
God is Love. Christ is love. This is God's chance to show you what he is made of in you. That Christ/God that lives within, that reaches out and touches those who need answers, healing and deliverance. And you are not the one doing it, it's that love that lives in your heart that has burned that selfishness away. Those looking for it will find it.
There was no "leader" of the first century church. No one man who was in charge. Christ is the head of the body and love is the blood that flows through it.
Jesus said I and my Father are one. It's not a figure of speech. One with the Father and one with love. He's living love.
This how Jesus could take the beating and torture he went through for mankind and give us life. Because he is living Love, the Word in the flesh.
This darn thing still eats at me. And I've been told that I let things eat at me sometimes. Shouldn't let it, but it does.
Vince is not the Lord, neither is James or Peter or Paul or John or anyone else. The bible is not the Lord either.
Jesus Christ is Lord.
Don't worry about "judgments". Our attorney has it covered.
Twi really screwed peoples brains over on the bible. Some should just let it set on the shelf for a while and let it collect dust. Instead of taking it and beating people up with it.
Just live love the best you can and don't worry about it. We will all fall of the love horse at times, shoot just get back on, it's an easy ride. A whole lot easier on the mind then trying to force scriptures into producing bondage.
I understand what you're saying, CM - really I do, personally.
However, since you've taken it into your hands to put these things out in public, it might hold you in good stead to consider that not only are Vince and company not our Lords, but as you say you've been told, in similar fashion, you should not let things that eat at you govern either.
I don't know it that helps you let it go, but, at least, realize that the Lord Jesus who said that his burden is light also said in Luke 4:4 Â And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Perhaps it wasn't said in what we would consider a loving fashion to one for whom he gave his life, but it came; nevertheless, out from the heart of one firmly entrenched in the heart of God's love in the midst of temptation in the wilderness.
Consider the nature of the temptation: Luke 4:3 Â And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. Is that not a very similar temptation to the one you indicate has been presented to us by TWI? If you're a son of God, ________. You fill in the blank - what judment is TWI beating us over the head with today? If you're a son of God, why are you sick? Why don't you have this need met or that? Why, if you're a faithful follower of the Way, aren't you prospering? Why don't you believe God to put more bread on your table? Pretty mush the same temptation that Jesus took out with "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." No?
Consider another group of people, also in the wilderness, to whom God delivered the same word - the children of Israel. God supplied them with bread so that they would learn that man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word of God. And he patiently did so for 40 years, so that they could learn the lesson. Is that not love? If the children of Israel gathered more than they needed for the day, the manna stank and had worms in it. If they shared it with each other, everyone had their needs met. And they had their need met in every way.
God didn't do that for the children of Israel BACAUSE they lived by every word that came out of the mouth of God; they didn't live that way. He did that for them so that they would learn that't the way man lives - from the words of the mouth of a God who loves them and feeds them even when they are too stupid and selfish to handle the blessings properly in love and screw it up. Wouldn't you say those who disregarded the words that proceeded from the mouth of God were slapping the hand that fed them?
Now consider one more group of people, many of whom, in a manner similar to Jesus and the children of Israel, are in a wilderness of sorts - the many ExTWI. Sure, many of us have learned that God is loving - not the God presented to many by TWI - or to Jesus by the Devil. We've learned that God will love us and care for us in spite of our screw ups. I, for one, have srewed up royally, on purpose, since I left TWI, just because I needed to know that our God was that loving. And he has never failed me.
THAT is my loving God and yours, CM. And I'm very glad of it.
And you're exactly right - all we need to do is walk in love. I just want to say that to walk in love doesn't preclude putting life together. Indeed, walking in love means putting life together in a loving manner with respect to those around us - sharing of the blessing and not being selfish with it. Every word of God shows us how to live that way - despite the bad rap & spin that has been put on the Word by the Devil in the wilderness or the selfishness of any of the other two groups that met with the same temptation in the wilderness of their lives.
I don't want to do dishonor to the God who loves me and provides for me even when I'm a jerk by saying that his words proceed out of his mouth for any other purpose than to show me how not to be a jerk any more; but instead, how to live.
It's really the only way I know how to deal with the temptation that comes to me from those who would judge me with "The Word."
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
12
23
47
21
Popular Days
Mar 17
28
Mar 16
20
Mar 18
16
Mar 19
16
Top Posters In This Topic
Raf 12 posts
Jbarrax 23 posts
CM 47 posts
HCW 21 posts
Popular Days
Mar 17 2005
28 posts
Mar 16 2005
20 posts
Mar 18 2005
16 posts
Mar 19 2005
16 posts
CM
Love and judgement don't clash. If that work is not done with love it's not a work that will abide anyway. Love is the work. If it's not done with love it will not do anything good for anyone.
"hope to the end for the grace that is to be brought unto you at the revelation of Jesus Christ"
If you don't stay with love you will loose that hope and return to something else. Doesn't say you will loose eternal life.
I respond because you brought my name up.
Not in to fight, but for love.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
What can we learn from 1 Corinthians 13?
That's the more excellent way.
Look at what some people have to do to get back to love after what twi did to them. Raped, encouraged suicide, talked 'em into abortions and more. If they can do it they will be rewarded. It takes WORK to love. And that work goes on between the ears.
Even if they can't quite bring themselves to love on certain enemies, it does not mean that they will loose eternal life, God still loves them and will never stop loving them.
God looks on the heart, remember, not the outward appearance of works. Some things may seem like the work of the Lord, but looking a little deeper, look for the love.
Got a bible on your computer? Look up the phrase "in love".
1 John 4: 16And we have known and believed (past tense) the love that God hath to us. God is love; and he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him.
17Herein is our love made perfect, that we may have boldness in the day of judgment: because as he is, so are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casteth out fear: because fear hath torment. He that feareth is not made perfect in love. 19We love him, because he first loved us
fear hath torment
perfect love casteth out fear
pass the time of your sojourning here in fear-fear of not walking in love. Without love your works are meaningless. Faith because of love, believing because of love, works because of love.
Not by threats of loosing eternal life. We see that God loved us first when he Gives that eternal life-he will not take it back.
he that dwelleth in love dwelleth in God, and God in him
Yes, dwell in it, bake in it, relax in it. Have confidence in it.
18My little children, let us not love in word, neither in tongue; but in deed and in truth. 19And hereby we know that we are of the truth, and shall assure our hearts before him.
20For if our heart condemn us, God is greater than our heart, and knoweth all things. 21Beloved, if our heart condemn us not, then have we confidence toward God. 22And whatsoever we ask, we receive of him, because we keep his commandments, and do those things that are pleasing in his sight.
23And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment. 24And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
but in deed and in truth-can only be done from love
The commandment is love-that's how we assure our hearts. And dwell in him-dwell in that love. Then from there you can do good works.
Good works is not shoving laws down peoples throat. Who's deciding what faithfulness is? God is. Man should mind his own ******* business and leave other people alone on what faithfulness is.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
Man is not God. When he trys to be the judge he's trying to be God.
Let God show you the way. He is within us. We were made that way. God is our father. Adam didn't loose spirit, just lost sight of it and made himself bigger then God, he didn't eat of the tree of life which is Christ. Jesus opened the door for all to enter. But the way is narrow. Make yourself small, meek, humble to enter. Love is the ticket my friend. Not rules and regulations.
2 Thessolonians 2:1Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him, 2That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition; 4Who opposeth and exalteth himself above all that is called God, or that is worshipped; so that he as God sitteth in the temple of God, shewing himself that he is God. 5Remember ye not, that, when I was yet with you, I told you these things? 6And now ye know what withholdeth that he might be revealed in his time. 7For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he who now letteth will let, until he be taken out of the way. 8And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming
This all happens within the mind. That selfish man of sin making himself god has to be taken out of the way. Loose yourself to find the Christ within who is our life. Then you will see the Lord coming, that Spirit within. And that brightness will do a few things.
And it happens over time not all at once. Noone could handle it all at once. It's a never ending unfolding revealing, if we stay in love, eat it slowly and let it digest, don't take on more then you can handle. Where we can keep our balance is staying in love. And not fall back into selfishness and make what you have seen a god itself.
the day of Christ is at hand
a little different perspective huh?
anyone who wants to e-mail me can
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
Yeah...noone can get it all at once.
We carry around with us this dead body, the old man. Once we shed this mortal body and have the completeness of the new spiritual one, which lies underneath, we will know even as we are known.
The battle is that we do not let that selfish old man nature rule. Let Christ rule in your hearts. And we will all blow it at times, not to worry though. God loves us, and will not forsake us.
Comfort your hearts, we will see it.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
I just did a little study on all the verses in King James that include both the word "judgment" & the "mercy." I think when people are talking about love, they are refering to the quality of mercy.
I just want to point out that mercy & judgment are not at odds; they are in harmonious relationship.
These are all the verses:
Psalms 89:14 Â Justice and judgment are the habitation of thy throne: mercy and truth shall go before thy face.
Psalms 101:1  ¶<<A Psalm of David.>> I will sing of mercy and judgment: unto thee, O LORD, will I sing.
Isaiah 16:5 Â And in mercy shall the throne be established: and he shall sit upon it in truth in the tabernacle of David, judging, and seeking judgment, and hasting righteousness.
Isaiah 30:18  ¶And therefore will the LORD wait, that he may be gracious unto you, and therefore will he be exalted, that he may have mercy upon you: for the LORD is a God of judgment: blessed are all they that wait for him [the reason God has mercy is BECAUSE he is a God of judgment].
Hosea 12:6 Â Therefore turn thou to thy God: keep mercy and judgment, and wait on thy God continually.
Zechariah 7:9 Â Thus speaketh the LORD of hosts, saying, Execute true judgment, and shew mercy [showing mercy & compassion is true judgment]and compassions every man to his brother:
Matthew 23:23 Â Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.
1 Corinthians 7:25  ¶Now concerning virgins I have no commandment of the Lord: yet I give my judgment, as one that hath obtained mercy of the Lord to be faithful.
James 2:13 Â For he shall have judgment without mercy, that hath shewed no mercy; and mercy rejoiceth against judgment.
Many of those same verses can be used to show either that salvation is permanent or that it is not.
I think that one of the misconceptions that reconciles many of the apparent contradictions is the business about the unrighteous not inheriting the kingdom of God. We equate inheriting the kingdom of God with salvation. I think that is unwarranted. Our eternal life starts - from our perpsective - when we are saved. Like the children of Israel, we each have a piece of the promised land already given to us. But also like the children of Israel - Joshua 1:3 Â Every place that the sole of your foot shall tread upon, that have I given unto you, as I said unto Moses - we have to walk to appropriate the inheritance.
Walk, not according to our own works to be saved, but according to works that God prepared for those who have the spirit to walk in to appropriate for themselves their inheritance within the body of Christ.
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
BTW, JB, your statement that God had all those people in the book of Job killed just to prove a point about Job is without biblical foundation. The Word doesn't say so; neither should you.
Romans says we are saved by or to hope. There is something essentially salvation-like about the hope of the resurrections and the gathering together. Even when Jesus Christ gets raised, God says "This day have I begotten thee," right? Yes, here it is, Acts 13:33 Â God hath fulfilled the same unto us their children, in that he hath raised up Jesus again; as it is also written in the second psalm, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee. Sure rings of being born again to me. But that is not to discount being born again in this life. 1 Peter 1:23 Â Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.
Romans that says that we are saved to hope, also says Romans 8:26  ¶Likewise the Spirit also helpeth our infirmities... "Likewise" like what? Like the hope - check this out - the whole walk in the spirit described in Romans 8 is like the hope - NOW.
If we know we are save by or to hope, we don't fret - we have patience because it is a certainty, not a maybe thing. Likewise, the spirit brings to bear in this life the reality of the glorified Christ sitting at the right hand of God as we are changed to be like him - now, all things working for good as we love him.
BTW, speaking of love: Romans 5:8 Â But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us. Commend means to favorably introduce. What was favorable about God's introduction to us of his love? That even though we were sinners, Christ died for us. Now I ask you - would God introduce his love for us as such that Christ died for us when we were sinners - and then say that now his love has changed - his introduction of what his love was no longer applies - now you better watch out that you don't get cut off because something can separate you from the love of God which is in Christ Jesus our Lord?
God forbid.
Tom
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheEvan
Tom, one of my favorite verses in this regard is:
Psa 85:10 Mercy and truth are met together; righteousness and peace have kissed each other
Ultimately, I think this is true in Christ
(The law came through Moses, but grace & truth came through Jesus Christ)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
I suppose i need to make one more point clear.
Jesus paid the price for sin completely. If you do not believe that then that man of sin will kick your ***, it will eat you alive.
It happened and Jesus did it for real.
You can count on it. Forgiveness is real.
(and don't even go to that "license to sin" crap, this is for those who are seeking)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
I feel like I've left this thread hanging in mid air....which is ok I guess, but let's add a little more to it...
Look what John said about Jesus-
John 1:29 The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world.
He took it away and some keep trying to give it back to you.
Ya know I think most of the time faithfulness is not doing things more than doing things. And faithfulness to your calling? Who really knows what their calling is completely. It's something you grow into.
Faith...that unseen factor that's alive and real.
Some how we've been lead to believe that everything is just going to pop into our heads and bingo you got everything you need for life and godliness.
You do have everything you need but realizing it is something the Lord will teach you and it will not go against the bible, with the help of others who pick up on your seeking trail, and it will go right along with bible and life itself. But we need to open up a little and not be so rigid on doctrines which men come up with.
Everyone knows there are contradictions in the bible. Those are on the surface. We need to see more than what's on the surface.
John 7:45 Then came the officers to the chief priests and Pharisees; and they said unto them, Why have ye not brought him? 46 The officers answered, Never man spake like this man.
"Never man spake like this man"
Not like anything they have ever heard. And I'm sure they heard a lot from the chief priests and pharisees. Certainly worthy of considering and reflection.
John 3:21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; 22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference: 23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God; 24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus: 25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God; 26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus. 27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law
"him which believeth in Jesus"
Seems to me we should consider what Jesus said.
He said believe on me....there's more to it than at first glance and it's not a code of rules and regulations. He said whatever he hears from his Father he says. That's in the here and now. But lets try not to go on tangents on one thing or another. Patience, temperance, knowing.....
Peace
Faith...
Most important-Love.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
One more thing on love...
Love is to do what the lord says....
Let's get in tune with that first, and not get into making what Paul, Peter and the rest of those who wrote the bible into rules. What they wrote was to specific people at specific times in their lives. Remember it's for our learning.
And what the lord says is for you to do, or learn and/or help someone, not for you to tell someone else to do. Of course we point out things that will hurt people-that is love too.
Edited by CMLink to comment
Share on other sites
CWF
Which is lived in the moment.
Your last statement rings so true.
It's always been Grace Vs Law.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
Yeah...such closeness with the Lord can be a frightening thought. That's why love is so important to understand and live. Without it we would surely be lost into a never ending battle of what we are to do and not do. And end up just giving up or get into telling people laws to live by.
One of the most dynamic and astounding statements Jesus said is;
Blessed are the pure in heart for they shall see God
Pure in heart...no other motive but love and a deep desire to know. Not for personal gain or power over people, but for love-loving Him because he loved us first.
---
Proverbs 30:12 There is a generation that are pure in their own eyes, and yet is not washed from their filthiness. 13 There is a generation, O how lofty are their eyes! and their eyelids are lifted up. 14 There is a generation, whose teeth are as swords, and their jaw teeth as knives, to devour the poor from off the earth, and the needy from among men.
Lets not be like this....
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
If salvation is not forever, then Jesus wasted his time on the cross, and the resurrection doesn't mean a thing. If we only have victory in the flesh, then we are all doomed.
Not a one of us will ever get in the door because we sin all the time. Even the righteous ones fall. It is in our nature.
That's why we have grace, to get us through the tough times.
Even in the OT it was grace and not works that got people in the door. God looks at the heart.
Obedience is vital. God says he desires it more than sacrifice. But He knows we will fall.
In that vein, we must not cheapen grace, nor abuse it, but we must not place extra burdens on ourselves or others. Jesus says his yoke his light, why add to it.
To teach that more rules and regs are needed negates the cross.
Live in the freedom/liberty that Christ has given you. Enjoy the release from the burden of sin. And let's help each other along, and not place stumblingblocks in their path.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Def59,
"Live in the freedom/liberty that Christ has given you. Enjoy the release from the burden of sin."
This statement and its context in the rest of your post presents an extremely beautiful truth. If so much of the sickness that we see around us and in us is due to stress, then an acceptance of what you shared has got to effectually produce the most healing of all.
Even if it wasn't about the cross - where, of course, Jesus took all our sin and sickness upon himself.
Which, of course, he did. And that's why it works that way.
But thank you for your fresh perspective born of your own intimate knowing.
Ain't it cool!
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CWF
CM
Your words here are a refreshment.
Living in Gods love is the answer in the here and now.
Godspeed
CWF
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
Thanks for picking up on that CWF.
This is the new testament. This is faith with works. This is how we assure our hearts before Him. This is how all will know Him from the least to the greatest. Noone will need to teach it to you because He lives in your heart. Love is giving not taking. It's power, love energizing faith.
We love. Some can't understand love without sex. They just can't see it. They will never understand it and get past their own lusts. And it's a shame.
Or some see love as a wimpy type thing. That's not what God's love is.
God is Love. Christ is love. This is God's chance to show you what he is made of in you. That Christ/God that lives within, that reaches out and touches those who need answers, healing and deliverance. And you are not the one doing it, it's that love that lives in your heart that has burned that selfishness away. Those looking for it will find it.
There was no "leader" of the first century church. No one man who was in charge. Christ is the head of the body and love is the blood that flows through it.
Jesus said I and my Father are one. It's not a figure of speech. One with the Father and one with love. He's living love.
This how Jesus could take the beating and torture he went through for mankind and give us life. Because he is living Love, the Word in the flesh.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
hmmmmm, no responses....don't know what that means...
I know some would rather have a nice tidy little set of rules rather then living love.
I hope this made sense to some.
love
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
This darn thing still eats at me. And I've been told that I let things eat at me sometimes. Shouldn't let it, but it does.
Vince is not the Lord, neither is James or Peter or Paul or John or anyone else. The bible is not the Lord either.
Jesus Christ is Lord.
Don't worry about "judgments". Our attorney has it covered.
Twi really screwed peoples brains over on the bible. Some should just let it set on the shelf for a while and let it collect dust. Instead of taking it and beating people up with it.
Just live love the best you can and don't worry about it. We will all fall of the love horse at times, shoot just get back on, it's an easy ride. A whole lot easier on the mind then trying to force scriptures into producing bondage.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
I understand what you're saying, CM - really I do, personally.
However, since you've taken it into your hands to put these things out in public, it might hold you in good stead to consider that not only are Vince and company not our Lords, but as you say you've been told, in similar fashion, you should not let things that eat at you govern either.
I don't know it that helps you let it go, but, at least, realize that the Lord Jesus who said that his burden is light also said in Luke 4:4 Â And Jesus answered him, saying, It is written, That man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God.
Perhaps it wasn't said in what we would consider a loving fashion to one for whom he gave his life, but it came; nevertheless, out from the heart of one firmly entrenched in the heart of God's love in the midst of temptation in the wilderness.
Consider the nature of the temptation: Luke 4:3 Â And the devil said unto him, If thou be the Son of God, command this stone that it be made bread. Is that not a very similar temptation to the one you indicate has been presented to us by TWI? If you're a son of God, ________. You fill in the blank - what judment is TWI beating us over the head with today? If you're a son of God, why are you sick? Why don't you have this need met or that? Why, if you're a faithful follower of the Way, aren't you prospering? Why don't you believe God to put more bread on your table? Pretty mush the same temptation that Jesus took out with "man shall not live by bread alone, but by every word of God." No?
Consider another group of people, also in the wilderness, to whom God delivered the same word - the children of Israel. God supplied them with bread so that they would learn that man doesn't live by bread alone, but by every word of God. And he patiently did so for 40 years, so that they could learn the lesson. Is that not love? If the children of Israel gathered more than they needed for the day, the manna stank and had worms in it. If they shared it with each other, everyone had their needs met. And they had their need met in every way.
God didn't do that for the children of Israel BACAUSE they lived by every word that came out of the mouth of God; they didn't live that way. He did that for them so that they would learn that't the way man lives - from the words of the mouth of a God who loves them and feeds them even when they are too stupid and selfish to handle the blessings properly in love and screw it up. Wouldn't you say those who disregarded the words that proceeded from the mouth of God were slapping the hand that fed them?
Now consider one more group of people, many of whom, in a manner similar to Jesus and the children of Israel, are in a wilderness of sorts - the many ExTWI. Sure, many of us have learned that God is loving - not the God presented to many by TWI - or to Jesus by the Devil. We've learned that God will love us and care for us in spite of our screw ups. I, for one, have srewed up royally, on purpose, since I left TWI, just because I needed to know that our God was that loving. And he has never failed me.
THAT is my loving God and yours, CM. And I'm very glad of it.
And you're exactly right - all we need to do is walk in love. I just want to say that to walk in love doesn't preclude putting life together. Indeed, walking in love means putting life together in a loving manner with respect to those around us - sharing of the blessing and not being selfish with it. Every word of God shows us how to live that way - despite the bad rap & spin that has been put on the Word by the Devil in the wilderness or the selfishness of any of the other two groups that met with the same temptation in the wilderness of their lives.
I don't want to do dishonor to the God who loves me and provides for me even when I'm a jerk by saying that his words proceed out of his mouth for any other purpose than to show me how not to be a jerk any more; but instead, how to live.
It's really the only way I know how to deal with the temptation that comes to me from those who would judge me with "The Word."
Tom
Link to comment
Share on other sites
CM
Thanks Tom
If we just go to the word with love as the base of understanding and not fear, it will make a lot more sense imo.
I refuse to live in fear anymore, I chose love.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tom
Link to comment
Share on other sites
def59
I would like to recommend a book called "Cat and Dog Theology" by Bob Sjogren (show grin) and Gerald Robison.
They are directors of a missionary organization and their premise is that many Christians today live with only half a gospel.
You can find more at www.catanddogtheology.org
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.