You got it dude, gathering together slowly (from our pov) but surely. Our God is a personal God.
I told you there are differing beliefs about this and here again I'm probably not relaying the message with the right words that will help you see or consider a different perspective.
If we are to be all one in Christ then some things are going to get the wrath of God, it'll only burn for a little while, let it go, let God work.
But there ain't no mind reading going on, or likemindedness as we were taught. Christ is the head of the body. The chief cornerstone.
Let's say that's true... and I John is saying, (1:8) "If we, unsaved unbelievers, say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (v:9) If we unsaved confess our sins, He (God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness... once and for all." ...Would be his position, contrary to your's, right?
Our positions are contrary because I don't think I John is addressed to the unsaved.
quote:
I'm guessing....because if,
quote:
much of I John should be interpreted in this manner, as an appeal from the Apostles and the born again believers to the unsaved.
... I wonder, How much?
Which much?
Excellent question. I don't know. All I can tell you is, at first, he told us I John was addressed to the unsavee and that it was a witnessing eqpistle. As I read it, I found several passages that seem to contradict that idea (including I John 2:13-18) and wrote him about them. He then said that not all of it is addressed to unbelievers and that some parts are addressed to the Church. I didn't press him for a complete breakdown of what parts are addressed to whom.
quote:
Forgive me but I always thought, "you" plus "me" equals "WE." The first sentence of 1 John says
quote:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
If that is not addressed TO born-again believers, then the writer is not a born-again believer. He refers to THEM as WE. It does switch to YOU and WE in v:4 "And these things write we unto you , that your joy may be full. (v:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you , that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."
V:6-9 goes back to just WE. If the writer was talking about THEM, the unbelievers, why is he saying WE? The grammatically correct pronoun would have to be YOU... "If YOU confess YOUR sins..." YOU can get saved, like me, THEN you + me = WE.
I can't get with what you relate of Ken's position cause it says WE.
Sorry but that is precisely what Ken told us. He says the WE is the Apostles and the Church. The YOU is the unsaved population. He said chapter one is an appeal from the WE of the Church to the YOU of the unsaved people to accept the cleansing of salvation. I don't want to try to get into a detailed expalanation of what he taught because I am sure I would fail miserably in presenting it in the depth that he can. He's been working this for over 15 years. Please contact him with any further questions about this.
quote:
As to the "It is written" statement, it is clear that Jesus taught from the Scriptures. I think, in your zeal, to score a point, you missed the point.
Zeal to score a point? Not really, my friend. Whereas I DO thoroughly enjoy a healthy discussion of the scriptures, like this one, I have absolutely no desire to "score points." I try to never zoom past stuff, just so I can say what I have to say.
I actually basically agree with your
quote:
Fundamentalist Christians of the Way's mindset get too wrapped up in proving one doctrine or another and that causes division, strife, pride, and carnal thinking in general.
...most especially TWI. They spent way too much time trying way too hard to set and then PROVE their positions.... Definitely self serving.
BUT. Yes, Jesus never wrote an epistle, he WAS the original LIVING epistle, to be known and read of all. Yes, the Bible is not supposed to be our "only rule of faith & practice" (another one of those self-serving ruses) it is simply ALL things that pertain unto life and Godliness which is a l i t t l e bit better than the "only rule of faith" thing. Its a LOT more than a primer, a point of reference to get started...
The Bible is EVERYTHING, the alpha and Omega, ALL things necessary to come to an intimate knowledge of this entire life. Your position indicates to me that you just don't know ENOUGH of the Bible to see it that way.
So we agree on a lot. But I disagree with your last position. The Bible, in my opinion, is not EVERYTHING. Our relationship with God and Christ is EVERYTHING. I hate to be redundant, but, if the Bible is "all things necessary to come to an intimate knowledge of this entire life", why do we still need revelation? Does the Bible tell you where to live, what job to take, how to bless your wife? No, it simply gives you guidelines. Taking a job in a company that makes money by lying would violate general biblical guidelines. The Bible says husbands are to dwell with them (wives) according to knowledge. Do you do a word search to find the knowledge of your wife or do you spend time with her and find out what she needs? Do you ask the Lord how to bless her or do you memorize Song of Solomon and leave it at that?
quote:
Thanks about the trucks, they ARE just toys though. I haven't fixed them & the boys don't miss 'em. I chose that analogy I thought it was appropriate to the subject matter. Aren't we talking about losing one's salvation by sinning?
We're talking about not receiving salvation by giving up on God. Not quite the same thing as two preschoolers breaking toys.
I think you maight have missed THAT point, which is in relation to losing one's salvation, there are things we do that WE don't RECOGNIZE as SIN but God does. Therefore it would be entirely possible for a person to lose his salvation and NEVER even KNOW it.
Not according to the criteria of Hebrews 10. It speaks of casting away your confidence, of failing to continue to believe God. Paul's exhortations in Galatians and Ephesians are pretty specific. The practice of fornication, idolatry, covetousness, withcraft, etc are not the kind of things someone can live with and not know it. But you bring up an excellent point, one that I have so far nedglected to point out. The word "do" in Galatians 5:21 is a mistranslation of the word prasso meaning to practice. I am not saying that I believe the Bible teaches that a son of God can fail to inherit the Kingdom because of ONE sin. But he can do so by practicing certain things, or by just giving up on God entirely, which some have done. And, if you are in this situation, God will tell you.
quote:
Phillipians 3:15
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
And how does God do this? By the Scripture? No, by REVELATION. He talks to his kids and says, Stop that! Or,if you're of a trinitarian mindset, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. The point is, God, by revelation, will tell you if you're going astray and you don't lose eternal life because of one offence, or even two.
I'm losing track of my quote brackets here, so I'm going to address the rest of your thought-provoking and well thought out post in a seperate response. :-)
Let's say that's true... and I John is saying, (1:8) "If we, unsaved unbelievers, say that we have no sin we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. (v:9) If we unsaved confess our sins, He (God) is faithful and just to forgive us our sins and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness... once and for all." ...Would be his position, contrary to your's, right?
Our positions are contrary because I don't think I John is addressed to the unsaved.
quote:
I'm guessing....because if,
quote:
much of I John should be interpreted in this manner, as an appeal from the Apostles and the born again believers to the unsaved.
... I wonder, How much?
Which much?
Excellent question. I don't know. All I can tell you is, at first, he told us I John was addressed to the unsaved and that it was a witnessing eqpistle. As I read it, I found several passages that seem to contradict that idea (including I John 2:13-18) and wrote him about them. He then said that not all of it is addressed to unbelievers and that some parts are addressed to the Church. I didn't press him for a complete breakdown of what parts are addressed to whom.
quote:
Forgive me but I always thought, "you" plus "me" equals "WE." The first sentence of 1 John says
quote:
That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
If that is not addressed TO born-again believers, then the writer is not a born-again believer. He refers to THEM as WE. It does switch to YOU and WE in v:4 "And these things write we unto you , that your joy may be full. (v:5) This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you , that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all."
V:6-9 goes back to just WE. If the writer was talking about THEM, the unbelievers, why is he saying WE? The grammatically correct pronoun would have to be YOU... "If YOU confess YOUR sins..." YOU can get saved, like me, THEN you + me = WE.
I can't get with what you relate of Ken's position cause it says WE.
Sorry but that is precisely what Ken told us. He says the WE is the Apostles and the Church. The YOU is the unsaved population. He said chapter one is an appeal from the WE of the Church to the YOU of the unsaved people to accept the cleansing of salvation. I don't want to try to get into a detailed expalanation of what he taught because I am sure I would fail miserably in presenting it in the depth that he can. He's been working this for over 15 years. Please contact him with any further questions about this.
quote:
As to the "It is written" statement, it is clear that Jesus taught from the Scriptures. I think, in your zeal, to score a point, you missed the point.
Zeal to score a point? Not really, my friend. Whereas I DO thoroughly enjoy a healthy discussion of the scriptures, like this one, I have absolutely no desire to "score points." I try to never zoom past stuff, just so I can say what I have to say.
I actually basically agree with your
quote:
Fundamentalist Christians of the Way's mindset get too wrapped up in proving one doctrine or another and that causes division, strife, pride, and carnal thinking in general.
...most especially TWI. They spent way too much time trying way too hard to set and then PROVE their positions.... Definitely self serving.
BUT. Yes, Jesus never wrote an epistle, he WAS the original LIVING epistle, to be known and read of all. Yes, the Bible is not supposed to be our "only rule of faith & practice" (another one of those self-serving ruses) it is simply ALL things that pertain unto life and Godliness which is a l i t t l e bit better than the "only rule of faith" thing. Its a LOT more than a primer, a point of reference to get started...
The Bible is EVERYTHING, the alpha and Omega, ALL things necessary to come to an intimate knowledge of this entire life. Your position indicates to me that you just don't know ENOUGH of the Bible to see it that way.
So we agree on a lot. But I disagree with your last position. The Bible, in my opinion, is not EVERYTHING. Our relationship with God and Christ is EVERYTHING. I hate to be redundant, but, if the Bible is "all things necessary to come to an intimate knowledge of this entire life", why do we still need revelation? Does the Bible tell you where to live, what job to take, how to bless your wife? No, it simply gives you guidelines. Taking a job in a company that makes money by lying would violate general biblical guidelines. The Bible says husbands are to dwell with them (wives) according to knowledge. Do you do a word search to find the knowledge of your wife or do you spend time with her and find out what she needs? Do you ask the Lord how to bless her or do you memorize Song of Solomon and leave it at that?
quote:
Thanks about the trucks, they ARE just toys though. I haven't fixed them & the boys don't miss 'em. I chose that analogy I thought it was appropriate to the subject matter. Aren't we talking about losing one's salvation by sinning?
We're talking about not receiving salvation by giving up on God. Not quite the same thing as two preschoolers breaking toys.
quote:
I think you maight have missed THAT point, which is in relation to losing one's salvation, there are things we do that WE don't RECOGNIZE as SIN but God does. Therefore it would be entirely possible for a person to lose his salvation and NEVER even KNOW it.
Not according to the criteria of Hebrews 10. It speaks of casting away your confidence, of failing to continue to believe God. Paul's exhortations in Galatians and Ephesians are pretty specific. The practice of fornication, idolatry, covetousness, withcraft, etc are not the kind of things someone can live with and not know it. But you bring up an excellent point, one that I have so far nedglected to point out. The word "do" in Galatians 5:21 is a mistranslation of the word prasso meaning to practice. I am not saying that I believe the Bible teaches that a son of God can fail to inherit the Kingdom because of ONE sin. But he can do so by practicing certain things, or by just giving up on God entirely, which some have done. And, if you are in this situation, God will tell you.
quote:
Phillipians 3:15
Let us therefore, as many as be perfect, be thus minded: and if in any thing ye be otherwise minded, God shall reveal even this unto you.
And how does God do this? By the Scripture? No, by REVELATION. He talks to his kids and says, Stop that! Or,if you're of a trinitarian mindset, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. The point is, God, by revelation, will tell you if you're going astray and you don't lose eternal life because of one offence, or even two.
I'm losing track of my quote brackets here, so I'm going to address the rest of your thought-provoking and well thought out post in a seperate response. :-)
God DOES want us to be conscious of sin. He wants us to KNOW sin, HATE sin and FLEE from sin... All the while being conscious of the fact that, "when I sin, it is no longer I that do it but SIN that dwells in me." (Romans 7:)--> He wants us to know that WHEN we sin it is BECAUSE we are drawn away of our own lusts, enticed by them (James 1:14).
Basically HCW, I agree with you. The spirit lusteth agains the flesh and the flesh against the spirit. We have to choose which set of desires we're going to act on.
quote:
He wants us to know that our action of confessing our sins allows God to cleanse our unright living. Our confession is for US, in our minds, it puts us in a place where we can receive from God and He can work with us. He also wants to know that IF we sin we have an advocate, Jesus Christ, the righteous one.
Agreed sir.
quote:
If one understands the Old testament, how they were absolutely cleansed, for a while, by the blood of the passover lamb, which was of the earth, earthy (and therefore IMperfect), you can clearly undertand how Jesus' being the PERFECT sacrifice absolutely cleanses us PERFECTLY.
The problem come with misunderstanding the concept of PERFECTION ... and INCorruptable. You simply can NOT corrupt something that CAN'T be corrupted.
God also told us in John that he who is born of God CANNOT sin - - Our incorruptable spirit can NOT sin. We sin in our bodies, in our minds. Our minds must be renewed (Romans), cleansed, (1 John) cleansed of all unrighteouness (un-right-living) is a continual process, since "if we say we have no sin we lie."
Again, I agree. But that incorruptible seed we are given is called in Ephesians 1:14, the "earnest of our inheritance. We were taught that the word "earnest" means a token, like a subway token. It's not the real thing, just a downpayment of sorts. Which means that when the time for the token is over, we exchange it for the real thing, (the spiritual body perhaps?). Since it's the earnest of our inheritance and not the full inheritance itself, we can choose not to redeem it. We can get off the train and change destinations.
quote:
In terms of your analogy, I do not believe children "just turn out that way." I accept if you "train up a child in the way he should go, when he is old, he will NOT depart from it," as absolute truth.
I would like to agree with you, but there are many Christian parents who would testify that they did that and their kids rebelled anyway. And I don't believe they "just turn out that way" either, but we are told that our adversary, as a roaring lion, walks about looking for whom he may devour. Lions and other predators often prey on the young, the weak and unprotected. Likewise the adversary sets traps for children in our culture and well intentioned parents sometimes fail to recognize them. Entertainment aimed at our children and adolescents promotes homosexuality, withcraft, and glamorizes paganism and spirit power. Christian children may not "just turn out that way", but they can be lured away by a malicious and crafty enemy. On this too, I expect we agree, but that's a whole other thread.
quote:
SO, the simplest answer to your question is this: If I had promised to split my estate equally between my two sons, they would get equal portions, PERIOD. Regardless of what they would do with the money; my children know, beyond a shadow of a doubt that IF DAD says something absolutely, it absolutely WILL happen, absolutely as DAD said it would.
I see your point. However the ONLY way the sons would get unequal portions would be if I had told them that their inheritance would be proportionate to their good works. In that case evil son would get NOTHING, and he would expect nothing because I would have informed him at every turn that his evil works were not even in the inheritance ball park.
Well that's my point exactly HCW. I think that's precisely what the Bible says. That's what Romans 2:7-11, Galatians 5:16-21, Ephesians 5:1-7, II Peter 1:10 and 2:1-22, Hebrews 3:8-4:11, 10:23-39 and others are talking about. They make it clear that certain practices are not in the inheritance ballpark, and God, by revelation, makes it crystal clear to us when we're about to get off the train so to speak. God is a loving father and there's nothing in the Bible that says that he doesn't love those who will receive wrath just as much as he loves those who receive rewards. He is love and He is no respecter of persons. He is just and righteous as well as loving. We have to accept and revere all aspects of God's person in order to grow to become mature Christians and faithful ambassadors of His will.
Okay, now I get it. You're saying that the promised return of Christ is fulfilled for each individual as he receives the gift of holy spirit which is Christ in you the hope of Glory.
Hmmm. That's going to take a while to digest. If you have any articles written up that explain this more fully and tie it to the various passages about the return, I'd like to read them. You can find my current Email address on my profile.
(should of named this the freaking Ken Brown thread-I met him once, so what)
Anyway....
Notice it says gatherING not gatherED. It's a gathering-a work in progress.
The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we that are alive shall join them!
Doesn't that say something about wether or not the dead are alive. Who's first to reach the complete fullness of our salvation huh? Who's already there before we get the new birth and join them? Who's in Christ and with Jesus. We that are alive and remain shall join THEM. Seated in the heavenlies with the new birth? You can count it man.
Philipians 1:21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
Paul knew his old fleshly body was giving out on him. But hung in there as long as he could for others sake.
"having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ"
you got that right, me too, but we stay in these fleshly bodies as long as we can for others
don't even think about suicide-that's insane, kick that thought out anytime it pops its ugly head up.
What he did for others also did much for himself...
He wasn't alive for himself anymore but lived for Christ/God and his will. Something died-his old man nature. Something got born, made alive. He had a choice daily, even moment by moment who he was alive for. The dead old man(which is there inherently) or the new man. But he made his choice and stuck to it.
It doesn't say anywhere in the bible that you will loose eternal life if you go back to that old man nature which would be worse.
What would Paul have to face again if he went back to killing believers when he departed to be with Christ! What kind of wrath of God would he have to face again?
I'd say the wrath of God did some piece of work on this man.
Just think a moment about what he had to face. It was so much that it blinded him for 3 days and nights. That took some COURAGE to live through. And to come out preaching Christ. Yeah...some piece of work my friends.
I suppose I picked the most extreme case I could think of, picking Paul to illustrate the point. Plus you got a little extra on different beliefs about a few things.
But man I tell you these people who come up with some of these doctrines, do so because they really don't have the truth. So they have to come up with something to keep their herd in line. Sorry Raf-motives again. I'll give 'em an out on the motives thing-Or they are just mislead by their own thinking.
If one has truly tasted the good word of the Lord, gets the new birth, and then turns his back on it and works contrary to the Lord's will. He's gotta be one dumb person.
O he'll still have his seat in the heavenlies if he really is born again and be happy with it, but look at what he missed out on now and the future rewards for eternity.
You can get a taste of the good word of the Lord and not follow it through to the new birth. Usually because of fear or just plain selfishness. Some take what little they did taste and use it for their own selfish power ego trips.
Just guessing I would say that Vince and company have not tasted the good word of the Lord.
Okay CM. Sorry about the long silence, I was out running around with my wife and son. I've looked again at I Corinthians 15 and I Thessalonians 4 and I can't say that I understand where you're coming from. As I see it, you're saying the prophecies about the return of Christ should be interpreted as the coming of Christ and that He has already come to you if you are truly born again. This would make the coming of Christ and our experience of it a spiritual, not a physical reality.
The first problem I see with that is I Thessalonians. Paul speaks of the coming of Lord and our gathering together unto him as 1) a future event to be anticipated by those who have already been saved or born again
quote:
14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.
15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent(precede) them which are asleep.
2) He clearly wrote of it as Christ coming from heaven and taking people from the earth to heaven with him. This is not a subjective experience.
quote:
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.
So, unless I'm still misunderstanding your position, I don't see how it agrees with what Paul taught and believed about the hope of Christ's return and our gathering together unto him.
The second problem is I Corinthians. In an earlier post, you referred to I Corinthians 15:21-23.
quote:
It's in the gospels....
Christ coming is mentioned in many places
but each man in his own order in Corinthians
You're referring to I Corinthians 15:22 & 23
quote:
22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.
23 But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.
The problem is, the context of this passage is a physical resurrection in a new body. I may be "seated in the heavenlies", but my physical body is still seated (with a little too much paunch on it I might add) in Lexington, KY. So the coming of Christ in the form of holy spirit in a born again person can't, imho, be interpreted as the fulfilment of this promise.
quote:
35 But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?
36 Thou fool, that which thou sowest is not quickened, except it die:
37 And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain:
38 But God giveth it a body as it hath pleased him, and to every seed his own body.
39 All flesh is not the same flesh: but there is one kind of flesh of men, another flesh of beasts, another of fishes, and another of birds.
40 There are also celestial bodies, and bodies terrestrial: but the glory of the celestial is one, and the glory of the terrestrial is another.
41 There is one glory of the sun, and another glory of the moon, and another glory of the stars: for one star differeth from another star in glory.
42 So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown in corruption; it is raised in incorruption:
43 It is sown in dishonour; it is raised in glory: it is sown in weakness; it is raised in power:
44 It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.
So when I Corinthians 15:22 says that all shall be made alive, it's talking about being made alive in a new, spiritual, immortal/incorruptible body.
But while I was looking at this, I did find another verse I had underlined and forgotten that indicates a conditional salvation dependent upon faithfulness. The whole chapter begins with an almost casual reference to salvation as a work in progress.
quote:
1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;
2 By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.
The people to whom Paul wrote were established Christians who had received the Word and believed it and were saved. But he implied that their salvation would only be fulfilled if they continued to believe what they had originally accepted. This reaffirms the message of Hebrews 3, 4, and 10 that a believer can fail to receive the promise because of failing to continue in the truth, or by casting away his confidence in God.
It's not the focus of this espistle, so it's tossed in casually as if they already understood that and just needed a quick reminder. Compared to the deeper explanation in Hebrews, it's presented in different language, but the message, although brief, is the same.
So I thank you for making me go back and look at some other aspects of this that I had forgotten about.
So we agree on a lot. But I disagree with your last position. The Bible, in my opinion, is not EVERYTHING. Our relationship with God and Christ is EVERYTHING. I hate to be redundant, but, if the Bible is "all things necessary to come to an intimate knowledge of this entire life", why do we still need revelation?
Actually, I don't disagree with that either, Jerry. Its hard for me to communicate some points clearly though. The Bible is clearly no every, EVERYthing. You're right I certainly ain't gonna do a word study and choose a wife from it.
Looking back on that subject, especially seeing as I had my ex-mother in law standing in my living room today and agreed with her that I should have listened to her when she said certain negative things concerning her daughter BEFORE I married her. Looking BACK there WAS the "still small voice" then, that today I can't honestly argue WASN'T God, especially, seeing what time has told.... I'm not gonna sweat over it though.
So we don't disagree on the revelation thing either. For example: My car is down, out for repairs and I needed to bum a ride some where I really wanted to get to. A "still small voice" "said" to call "so & so." I did, not even knowing what to say to her, even though I knew she didn't have room in her car to give me & the boys a ride. I started to chit chat & the friend said, on her own with out my solicitation, "Hey. You need a ride to Alpha? Libby's going & she would love to come pick you guys up! I'm thinking about going & I could meet all of you there."
I was "amazed." (not really :)-->) Convinced that I'm finally getting this "still small voice" thing down. It was cool. I'd NEVER have thought to ask Libby on my own AND I don't even have her phone number.
It seems like we're gonna have to find something else to argue about.
But that incorruptible seed we are given is called in Ephesians 1:14, the "earnest of our inheritance. We were taught that the word "earnest" means a token, like a subway token. It's not the real thing, just a downpayment of sorts. Which means that when the time for the token is over, we exchange it for the real thing, (the spiritual body perhaps?). Since it's the earnest of our inheritance and not the full inheritance itself, we can choose not to redeem it. We can get off the train and change destinations.
I've looked at about 10 other english Bible versions & they spin Ephesians 1:14 more like this:
quote:
The Holy Spirit is the first part of what we are to receive from God. This proves that we will get all God has promised. Some day we shall have them all. Praise God! He is very great and wonderful.
Most of them speak of the "earnest" as a down payment, or deposit that guarantees that there is definitely more to come than that.
I'm thinking the new body, living in the new heaven & earth thing is the balance of the promise, secured by the down payment.
I lean that way because the Word does speak specifically about our works, judgement and rewards, in terms of keeping or losing rewards.
quote:
Corinthins 3:13-15
v:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
v:14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
v:15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.
I would like to agree with you, but there are many Christian parents who would testify that they did that and their kids rebelled anyway. And I don't believe they "just turn out that way" either, but we are told that our adversary, as a roaring lion, walks about looking for whom he may devour. Lions and other predators often prey on the young, the weak and unprotected. Likewise the adversary sets traps for children in our culture and well intentioned parents sometimes fail to recognize them. Entertainment aimed at our children and adolescents promotes homosexuality, withcraft, and glamorizes paganism and spirit power. Christian children may not "just turn out that way", but they can be lured away by a malicious and crafty enemy. On this too, I expect we agree, but that's a whole other thread.
Gee what a fricken love fest this is turning out to be...
I even agree its another thread but, since we're talking about it... Today at my church, we had this guy Josh McDowell, a world renouned, best selling author & speaker there talking about this very subject. I'm not a bandwagon kinda guy but he said some very compelling stuff.
After giving some of the normal statistics about the percentages of kids likely to "go bad" in single parent homes, (about 36%) he mentioned this very alarming one... In dual parent homes the statistical likelyhood of kids "going bad" is DOUBLE that of single parent households when the children have either a distant, or "absent" relationship with their fathers.
His point was that it is not the fact that there is a father or not there but it is the QUALITY of the parental relationships that determines whether or not children will rebel. He listed some scriptures from Psalms, etc. that speak of the surety of God's unfailing love and related how when we parents, specifically Fathers build the security of our unconditional love into our children that makes them much more likely to listen to what we say and not stray from our example.
I have long been a believer in how when we fail to successfully model for our children what we say to them and tell them to do, we will succeed in building rebellious children. I believe that we as fathers MUST convince our children beyond a shadow of their doubt two things:
1. We love them, period. No matter how much we may HATE what they do, we STILL love THEM.
2. We CAN be trusted. We DO say what we mean and mean what we say.
I do not, nor will I ever believe, children "turn out." I'm aware of the things pulling children to rebel; deal with it on a daily basis. I believe you can predict with a high degree of certainty, if a child will rebel. I believe a parent can "lose" a child before age three, by age two, actually, if said parent teaches child they can't be trusted. I see parents doing that regularly, then wonder why, and say, "I can't get my kid(s) to do a damn thing I say."
quote:
Likewise the adversary sets traps for children in our culture and well intentioned parents sometimes fail to recognize them.
One of the biggest traps he set for children is the well intentioned parent who doesn't recognize the subtle nature of his traps.
This subject is a BIG can of worms. Suffice it to say that the unconditional love of a father to his children gives that child the greastest opportunity to excel and succeed. I think that plays into this discussion in that when we know for certian that we can't "blow" our salvation that releases us from the fear and insecurity that comes with "I must do this or God will kill me..." Freedom to fail give the child the wings to fly to success.
Howard, I haven't read this thread and probably won't as I limit my time here at gsc BUT....
I did read your last post and I admire your stand on "fatherhood". In light of THIS subject as well.
I grew up not having the love or acceptance of a father, he was there but absent from me. I spent my childhood and early teens trying to be good enough for him, and always failing! If I had to do that with my heavenly Father I might just say screw it!
You fathers that read this please DO NOT underestimate your role in your children's lives.
Being a father is one of the two greatest things a man can do. One of the greatest complements I've ever received was when my daughter was talking to me about one of her friends who had told her that she, the friend, didn't think her father loved her. This friend has been a pretty constant topic of discussion. Things like, "Dad, You'll never believe what _________ did this time." Nothing really bad, just stuff that irritates my daughter & their other friend to no end. Like she's so neurotic, kinda stuff.
I asked my daughter, "Think about this. Do you have ANY doubt whatsoever that I love you and would walk through the hottest fire for you?" She said "No. ... Dad." In that very teenage, "...what a stupid question... don't you already KNOW the answer..." tone of voice.
My daughter has trouble grasping the concept that a father COULD not love his daughter. We went on to talk about the situation with her friend for the next hour & 1/2.
Of all the mistakes in my life, I've busted my foot to never miss the mark and hit the bull's eye on things that are the most important to HER. I have sacrificed, given up more lucrative professional opportunities to move elsewhere, just because when she was a little girl and I said, "Daddy has a chance to get a really good job if I moved..."
Her eyes began to fill up with tears, so I said, "...but I'm not taking it. Daddy's gonna stay right here, where you are." I wiped the tears from her eyes, hugger her, kissed her on the cheek & said, "Daddy will NEVER leave you; never."
I haven't. Now she's preparing to leave me. She's a National Merit Scholar preparing for her freshman year at Yale University who believes there is not a boy in the world who can MAKE her do anything. If she had a boyfriend (which she doesn't) who wanted to be with her in collges she says HE can switch HIS college to come with HER. She then MIGHT continue to date him, IF she had time.
I don't worry much about her getting raped, I worry about what she might do to somebody who tried it. You will not find a young lady with a higher sense of self esteem that her... she's tops. She knows I believe in her, I believe she is BEAUTIFUL, I believe she is GOOD, I believe she is SMART, and I believe that a decision she makes WILL be well thought out, even if I don't agree with it. She also knows if I don't agree with her, we'll talk about it and I will let her konw clearly what my thinking is and she has the right to do the same with me.
This isn't a derailment, this is a discussion of a loving relationship between father & child. This is what is at the root of my position in thinking that there is just NO way that our FATHER GOD, would ALLOW us to go to HELL...
AFTER HE redeemed us from death. I understand the free will to choose stuff & embrace it.
No, no way, no how, nope, nada. WOuld God leave that up to us, especially when he ALSO redeemed us from blowing it the first time. I have learned, from my CHILDREN... that there is a point at which their "love tank" is full. When its full and you keep right on pouring on the love to over flowing, they take the excess love and use it fuel EXCELLENCE in their lives.
When the tank is on full they have NO problem accepting that THEY don't have to do ANYTHING to earn love. When it is overflowing they have NO problem accepting that there is equally NOTHING they can do to LOSE the love.
They don't cause it to happen, they CAN'T stop it from coming. They feel free to do ANYTHING. even stuff they know they shouldn't do, BECAUSE, before they do it they KNOW, their Daddy will STILL love them... when "the trucks are broken."
If you can't get with what I'm saying, its cause maybe YOUR "love tank" isn't full?
Being a father is one of the two greatest things a man can do. One of the greatest complements I've ever received was when my daughter was talking to me about one of her friends who had told her that she, the friend, didn't think her father loved her. This friend has been a pretty constant topic of discussion. Things like, "Dad, You'll never believe what _________ did this time." Nothing really bad, just stuff that irritates my daughter & their other friend to no end. Like she's so neurotic, kinda stuff.
I asked my daughter, "Think about this. Do you have ANY doubt whatsoever that I love you and would walk through the hottest fire for you?" She said "No. ... Dad." In that very teenage, "...what a stupid question... don't you already KNOW the answer..." tone of voice.
My daughter has trouble grasping the concept that a father COULD not love his daughter. We went on to talk about the situation with her friend for the next hour & 1/2.
Of all the mistakes in my life, I've busted my foot to never miss the mark and hit the bull's eye on things that are the most important to HER. I have sacrificed, given up more lucrative professional opportunities to move elsewhere, just because when she was a little girl and I said, "Daddy has a chance to get a really good job if I moved..."
Her eyes began to fill up with tears, so I said, "...but I'm not taking it. Daddy's gonna stay right here, where you are." I wiped the tears from her eyes, hugger her, kissed her on the cheek & said, "Daddy will NEVER leave you; never."
I haven't. Now she's preparing to leave me. She's a National Merit Scholar preparing for her freshman year at Yale University who believes there is not a boy in the world who can MAKE her do anything. If she had a boyfriend (which she doesn't) who wanted to be with her in collges she says HE can switch HIS college to come with HER. She then MIGHT continue to date him, IF she had time.
I don't worry much about her getting raped, I worry about what she might do to somebody who tried it. You will not find a young lady with a higher sense of self esteem that her... she's tops. She knows I believe in her, I believe she is BEAUTIFUL, I believe she is GOOD, I believe she is SMART, and I believe that a decision she makes WILL be well thought out, even if I don't agree with it. She also knows if I don't agree with her, we'll talk about it and I will let her konw clearly what my thinking is and she has the right to do the same with me.
That is so NOT my life. I'm very thankful your children have what I didn't.
This isn't a derailment, this is a discussion of a loving relationship between father & child. This is what is at the root of my position in thinking that there is just NO way that our FATHER GOD, would ALLOW us to go to HELL...
AFTER HE redeemed us from death. I understand the free will to choose stuff & embrace it.
No, no way, no how, nope, nada. WOuld God leave that up to us, especially when he ALSO redeemed us from blowing it the first time.
I agree wholeheartedly.
I have learned, from my CHILDREN... that there is a point at which their "love tank" is full. When its full and you keep right on pouring on the love to over flowing, they take the excess love and use it fuel EXCELLENCE in their lives.
When the tank is on full they have NO problem accepting that THEY don't have to do ANYTHING to earn love. When it is overflowing they have NO problem accepting that there is equally NOTHING they can do to LOSE the love.
They don't cause it to happen, they CAN'T stop it from coming. They feel free to do ANYTHING. even stuff they know they shouldn't do, BECAUSE, before they do it they KNOW, their Daddy will STILL love them... when "the trucks are broken."
I know my heavenly Daddy loves me that much. I'm not familiar with the other type love you speak of in your family. But I am familiar with being loved that much, and loving that much back.
If you can't get with what I'm saying, its cause maybe YOUR "love tank" isn't full?
I get what you're saying (not from experience as stated). As to your question of possibly not having a full "love tank". If it comes from a man that raised me as a father in name only then no I don't have even a partial tank. If it comes from being loved by others, well that is way too involved and sidetracks this puppy big time!
Thank you for the consideration you put into your post to me, it was bold and I appreciate it.
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CM
And I'm just a babe in Christ and probably
entertaining those who have matured in it.
But I can see a little bit.....
Back to the subject-
Are we seated in the heavenlies or not?
Has He given us Life or not?
God is not a liar!
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by def59
Nice point def.
I'm probably talking too much myself.
4 posts in a row...relax cm, plant and water
is the best anyone can do, God must give the increase
I just want so much for people to see
and know that I can't hold back sometimes.
Back to temperance. I must bite my toungue
when I don't have the right words to relay
the message that explodes in my head and burns
in my heart.
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Ok now 5...
Jb-"but for one person at a time?"
You got it dude, gathering together slowly (from our pov) but surely. Our God is a personal God.
I told you there are differing beliefs about this and here again I'm probably not relaying the message with the right words that will help you see or consider a different perspective.
If we are to be all one in Christ then some things are going to get the wrath of God, it'll only burn for a little while, let it go, let God work.
But there ain't no mind reading going on, or likemindedness as we were taught. Christ is the head of the body. The chief cornerstone.
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Jbarrax
Our positions are contrary because I don't think I John is addressed to the unsaved.
Excellent question. I don't know. All I can tell you is, at first, he told us I John was addressed to the unsavee and that it was a witnessing eqpistle. As I read it, I found several passages that seem to contradict that idea (including I John 2:13-18) and wrote him about them. He then said that not all of it is addressed to unbelievers and that some parts are addressed to the Church. I didn't press him for a complete breakdown of what parts are addressed to whom.
Sorry but that is precisely what Ken told us. He says the WE is the Apostles and the Church. The YOU is the unsaved population. He said chapter one is an appeal from the WE of the Church to the YOU of the unsaved people to accept the cleansing of salvation. I don't want to try to get into a detailed expalanation of what he taught because I am sure I would fail miserably in presenting it in the depth that he can. He's been working this for over 15 years. Please contact him with any further questions about this.
Zeal to score a point? Not really, my friend. Whereas I DO thoroughly enjoy a healthy discussion of the scriptures, like this one, I have absolutely no desire to "score points." I try to never zoom past stuff, just so I can say what I have to say.I actually basically agree with your
...most especially TWI. They spent way too much time trying way too hard to set and then PROVE their positions.... Definitely self serving.BUT. Yes, Jesus never wrote an epistle, he WAS the original LIVING epistle, to be known and read of all. Yes, the Bible is not supposed to be our "only rule of faith & practice" (another one of those self-serving ruses) it is simply ALL things that pertain unto life and Godliness which is a l i t t l e bit better than the "only rule of faith" thing. Its a LOT more than a primer, a point of reference to get started...
The Bible is EVERYTHING, the alpha and Omega, ALL things necessary to come to an intimate knowledge of this entire life. Your position indicates to me that you just don't know ENOUGH of the Bible to see it that way.
So we agree on a lot. But I disagree with your last position. The Bible, in my opinion, is not EVERYTHING. Our relationship with God and Christ is EVERYTHING. I hate to be redundant, but, if the Bible is "all things necessary to come to an intimate knowledge of this entire life", why do we still need revelation? Does the Bible tell you where to live, what job to take, how to bless your wife? No, it simply gives you guidelines. Taking a job in a company that makes money by lying would violate general biblical guidelines. The Bible says husbands are to dwell with them (wives) according to knowledge. Do you do a word search to find the knowledge of your wife or do you spend time with her and find out what she needs? Do you ask the Lord how to bless her or do you memorize Song of Solomon and leave it at that?
We're talking about not receiving salvation by giving up on God. Not quite the same thing as two preschoolers breaking toys.
I think you maight have missed THAT point, which is in relation to losing one's salvation, there are things we do that WE don't RECOGNIZE as SIN but God does. Therefore it would be entirely possible for a person to lose his salvation and NEVER even KNOW it.
Not according to the criteria of Hebrews 10. It speaks of casting away your confidence, of failing to continue to believe God. Paul's exhortations in Galatians and Ephesians are pretty specific. The practice of fornication, idolatry, covetousness, withcraft, etc are not the kind of things someone can live with and not know it. But you bring up an excellent point, one that I have so far nedglected to point out. The word "do" in Galatians 5:21 is a mistranslation of the word prasso meaning to practice. I am not saying that I believe the Bible teaches that a son of God can fail to inherit the Kingdom because of ONE sin. But he can do so by practicing certain things, or by just giving up on God entirely, which some have done. And, if you are in this situation, God will tell you.
And how does God do this? By the Scripture? No, by REVELATION. He talks to his kids and says, Stop that! Or,if you're of a trinitarian mindset, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. The point is, God, by revelation, will tell you if you're going astray and you don't lose eternal life because of one offence, or even two.
I'm losing track of my quote brackets here, so I'm going to address the rest of your thought-provoking and well thought out post in a seperate response. :-)
Peace
JerryB
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Jbarrax
So we agree on a lot. But I disagree with your last position. The Bible, in my opinion, is not EVERYTHING. Our relationship with God and Christ is EVERYTHING. I hate to be redundant, but, if the Bible is "all things necessary to come to an intimate knowledge of this entire life", why do we still need revelation? Does the Bible tell you where to live, what job to take, how to bless your wife? No, it simply gives you guidelines. Taking a job in a company that makes money by lying would violate general biblical guidelines. The Bible says husbands are to dwell with them (wives) according to knowledge. Do you do a word search to find the knowledge of your wife or do you spend time with her and find out what she needs? Do you ask the Lord how to bless her or do you memorize Song of Solomon and leave it at that?
We're talking about not receiving salvation by giving up on God. Not quite the same thing as two preschoolers breaking toys.
Not according to the criteria of Hebrews 10. It speaks of casting away your confidence, of failing to continue to believe God. Paul's exhortations in Galatians and Ephesians are pretty specific. The practice of fornication, idolatry, covetousness, withcraft, etc are not the kind of things someone can live with and not know it. But you bring up an excellent point, one that I have so far nedglected to point out. The word "do" in Galatians 5:21 is a mistranslation of the word prasso meaning to practice. I am not saying that I believe the Bible teaches that a son of God can fail to inherit the Kingdom because of ONE sin. But he can do so by practicing certain things, or by just giving up on God entirely, which some have done. And, if you are in this situation, God will tell you.
And how does God do this? By the Scripture? No, by REVELATION. He talks to his kids and says, Stop that! Or,if you're of a trinitarian mindset, the Holy Spirit convicts of sin. The point is, God, by revelation, will tell you if you're going astray and you don't lose eternal life because of one offence, or even two.
I'm losing track of my quote brackets here, so I'm going to address the rest of your thought-provoking and well thought out post in a seperate response. :-)
Peace
JerryB
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Basically HCW, I agree with you. The spirit lusteth agains the flesh and the flesh against the spirit. We have to choose which set of desires we're going to act on.
Agreed sir.
Again, I agree. But that incorruptible seed we are given is called in Ephesians 1:14, the "earnest of our inheritance. We were taught that the word "earnest" means a token, like a subway token. It's not the real thing, just a downpayment of sorts. Which means that when the time for the token is over, we exchange it for the real thing, (the spiritual body perhaps?). Since it's the earnest of our inheritance and not the full inheritance itself, we can choose not to redeem it. We can get off the train and change destinations.
I would like to agree with you, but there are many Christian parents who would testify that they did that and their kids rebelled anyway. And I don't believe they "just turn out that way" either, but we are told that our adversary, as a roaring lion, walks about looking for whom he may devour. Lions and other predators often prey on the young, the weak and unprotected. Likewise the adversary sets traps for children in our culture and well intentioned parents sometimes fail to recognize them. Entertainment aimed at our children and adolescents promotes homosexuality, withcraft, and glamorizes paganism and spirit power. Christian children may not "just turn out that way", but they can be lured away by a malicious and crafty enemy. On this too, I expect we agree, but that's a whole other thread.
Well that's my point exactly HCW. I think that's precisely what the Bible says. That's what Romans 2:7-11, Galatians 5:16-21, Ephesians 5:1-7, II Peter 1:10 and 2:1-22, Hebrews 3:8-4:11, 10:23-39 and others are talking about. They make it clear that certain practices are not in the inheritance ballpark, and God, by revelation, makes it crystal clear to us when we're about to get off the train so to speak. God is a loving father and there's nothing in the Bible that says that he doesn't love those who will receive wrath just as much as he loves those who receive rewards. He is love and He is no respecter of persons. He is just and righteous as well as loving. We have to accept and revere all aspects of God's person in order to grow to become mature Christians and faithful ambassadors of His will.
Peace
JerryB
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Jbarrax
Okay, now I get it. You're saying that the promised return of Christ is fulfilled for each individual as he receives the gift of holy spirit which is Christ in you the hope of Glory.
Hmmm. That's going to take a while to digest. If you have any articles written up that explain this more fully and tie it to the various passages about the return, I'd like to read them. You can find my current Email address on my profile.
Peace
JerryB
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CM
(should of named this the freaking Ken Brown thread-I met him once, so what)
Anyway....
Notice it says gatherING not gatherED. It's a gathering-a work in progress.
The dead in Christ shall rise first, then we that are alive shall join them!
Doesn't that say something about wether or not the dead are alive. Who's first to reach the complete fullness of our salvation huh? Who's already there before we get the new birth and join them? Who's in Christ and with Jesus. We that are alive and remain shall join THEM. Seated in the heavenlies with the new birth? You can count it man.
Philipians 1:21For to me to live is Christ, and to die is gain. 22But if I live in the flesh, this is the fruit of my labour: yet what I shall choose I wot not. 23For I am in a strait betwixt two, having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ; which is far better: 24Nevertheless to abide in the flesh is more needful for you. 25And having this confidence, I know that I shall abide and continue with you all for your furtherance and joy of faith; 26That your rejoicing may be more abundant in Jesus Christ for me by my coming to you again.
Paul knew his old fleshly body was giving out on him. But hung in there as long as he could for others sake.
"having a desire to depart, and to be with Christ"
you got that right, me too, but we stay in these fleshly bodies as long as we can for others
don't even think about suicide-that's insane, kick that thought out anytime it pops its ugly head up.
What he did for others also did much for himself...
He wasn't alive for himself anymore but lived for Christ/God and his will. Something died-his old man nature. Something got born, made alive. He had a choice daily, even moment by moment who he was alive for. The dead old man(which is there inherently) or the new man. But he made his choice and stuck to it.
It doesn't say anywhere in the bible that you will loose eternal life if you go back to that old man nature which would be worse.
What would Paul have to face again if he went back to killing believers when he departed to be with Christ! What kind of wrath of God would he have to face again?
I'd say the wrath of God did some piece of work on this man.
Just think a moment about what he had to face. It was so much that it blinded him for 3 days and nights. That took some COURAGE to live through. And to come out preaching Christ. Yeah...some piece of work my friends.
Very serious and powerful stuff....
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It's the promised coming of the Lord. Not return, he's still around here ya know, even for the unsaved.
The new birth is from within.
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Jb-the coming of the Lord is from within-the new birth is from within.
God gave us the ability to handle it and will not
give you more then you can handle.
That's why I say be flexible and the scriptures say be ready because you don't know when the Lord will come.
But it can happen this day or another day.
New light will happen.
Greater understanding.
Remember-all things become new.
Yeah....new light, some things that we have held to as
the truth will not hold up when held up to the light
of God.
Get your sh!t together and don't leave anything undone.
Be reconciled with your enemies as much as you can.
Live as godly as you can. Live love as much as lies within you.
Forgiveness is as real as the wrath of God.
God is able to burn all the bad out from the day that
you were born till now and replace it with His Love.
And he will not forsake you, he will stick with you.
He will not go back on his word and promises.
I got to catch my breath a bit before saying much more....
Breath all the way out, as much as you can, then breath in deeply. Helps rejuvenate the soul/spirit. And it helps if you happen to have to face
your own demons and dragons. The Spirit of God is a Fire and it needs air.
I will e-mail you when I know what to say.
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And you can e-mail me when ever you want.
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I suppose I picked the most extreme case I could think of, picking Paul to illustrate the point. Plus you got a little extra on different beliefs about a few things.
But man I tell you these people who come up with some of these doctrines, do so because they really don't have the truth. So they have to come up with something to keep their herd in line. Sorry Raf-motives again. I'll give 'em an out on the motives thing-Or they are just mislead by their own thinking.
If one has truly tasted the good word of the Lord, gets the new birth, and then turns his back on it and works contrary to the Lord's will. He's gotta be one dumb person.
O he'll still have his seat in the heavenlies if he really is born again and be happy with it, but look at what he missed out on now and the future rewards for eternity.
You can get a taste of the good word of the Lord and not follow it through to the new birth. Usually because of fear or just plain selfishness. Some take what little they did taste and use it for their own selfish power ego trips.
Just guessing I would say that Vince and company have not tasted the good word of the Lord.
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Jbarrax
Okay CM. Sorry about the long silence, I was out running around with my wife and son. I've looked again at I Corinthians 15 and I Thessalonians 4 and I can't say that I understand where you're coming from. As I see it, you're saying the prophecies about the return of Christ should be interpreted as the coming of Christ and that He has already come to you if you are truly born again. This would make the coming of Christ and our experience of it a spiritual, not a physical reality.
The first problem I see with that is I Thessalonians. Paul speaks of the coming of Lord and our gathering together unto him as 1) a future event to be anticipated by those who have already been saved or born again
2) He clearly wrote of it as Christ coming from heaven and taking people from the earth to heaven with him. This is not a subjective experience.
So, unless I'm still misunderstanding your position, I don't see how it agrees with what Paul taught and believed about the hope of Christ's return and our gathering together unto him.
The second problem is I Corinthians. In an earlier post, you referred to I Corinthians 15:21-23.
You're referring to I Corinthians 15:22 & 23
The problem is, the context of this passage is a physical resurrection in a new body. I may be "seated in the heavenlies", but my physical body is still seated (with a little too much paunch on it I might add) in Lexington, KY. So the coming of Christ in the form of holy spirit in a born again person can't, imho, be interpreted as the fulfilment of this promise.
So when I Corinthians 15:22 says that all shall be made alive, it's talking about being made alive in a new, spiritual, immortal/incorruptible body.
But while I was looking at this, I did find another verse I had underlined and forgotten that indicates a conditional salvation dependent upon faithfulness. The whole chapter begins with an almost casual reference to salvation as a work in progress.
The people to whom Paul wrote were established Christians who had received the Word and believed it and were saved. But he implied that their salvation would only be fulfilled if they continued to believe what they had originally accepted. This reaffirms the message of Hebrews 3, 4, and 10 that a believer can fail to receive the promise because of failing to continue in the truth, or by casting away his confidence in God.
It's not the focus of this espistle, so it's tossed in casually as if they already understood that and just needed a quick reminder. Compared to the deeper explanation in Hebrews, it's presented in different language, but the message, although brief, is the same.
So I thank you for making me go back and look at some other aspects of this that I had forgotten about.
Peace
JerryB
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everyone will sin
Paul included.
Sometimes even on purpose.
If what you are saying is true then
we are all just wasting time trying to
do it right.
Eat drink and be merry for tomorrow we die.
--
Passed from death to Life or not.
Some just get a glimpse of it, others can see it very clearly.
Soon enough those who have Life will have the full realization of it when they shed this mortal body and put on immortality.
Heaven is closer than you think.
Whoever you are, Jb, will continue after the passing away of your mortal body. How much hell you will have to go through is not my call.
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But like I mentioned earlier
Forgiveness is as real as Wrath
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btw, I don't know if you are saved or not
and at this point I'm leaving this conversation
a promise is a promise My Father didn't lie.
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HCW
Actually, I don't disagree with that either, Jerry. Its hard for me to communicate some points clearly though. The Bible is clearly no every, EVERYthing. You're right I certainly ain't gonna do a word study and choose a wife from it.
Looking back on that subject, especially seeing as I had my ex-mother in law standing in my living room today and agreed with her that I should have listened to her when she said certain negative things concerning her daughter BEFORE I married her. Looking BACK there WAS the "still small voice" then, that today I can't honestly argue WASN'T God, especially, seeing what time has told.... I'm not gonna sweat over it though.
So we don't disagree on the revelation thing either. For example: My car is down, out for repairs and I needed to bum a ride some where I really wanted to get to. A "still small voice" "said" to call "so & so." I did, not even knowing what to say to her, even though I knew she didn't have room in her car to give me & the boys a ride. I started to chit chat & the friend said, on her own with out my solicitation, "Hey. You need a ride to Alpha? Libby's going & she would love to come pick you guys up! I'm thinking about going & I could meet all of you there."
I was "amazed." (not really
:)-->) Convinced that I'm finally getting this "still small voice" thing down. It was cool. I'd NEVER have thought to ask Libby on my own AND I don't even have her phone number.
It seems like we're gonna have to find something else to argue about.
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HCW
I've looked at about 10 other english Bible versions & they spin Ephesians 1:14 more like this:
Most of them speak of the "earnest" as a down payment, or deposit that guarantees that there is definitely more to come than that.I'm thinking the new body, living in the new heaven & earth thing is the balance of the promise, secured by the down payment.
I lean that way because the Word does speak specifically about our works, judgement and rewards, in terms of keeping or losing rewards.
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HCW
Gee what a fricken love fest this is turning out to be...
I even agree its another thread but, since we're talking about it... Today at my church, we had this guy Josh McDowell, a world renouned, best selling author & speaker there talking about this very subject. I'm not a bandwagon kinda guy but he said some very compelling stuff.
After giving some of the normal statistics about the percentages of kids likely to "go bad" in single parent homes, (about 36%) he mentioned this very alarming one... In dual parent homes the statistical likelyhood of kids "going bad" is DOUBLE that of single parent households when the children have either a distant, or "absent" relationship with their fathers.
His point was that it is not the fact that there is a father or not there but it is the QUALITY of the parental relationships that determines whether or not children will rebel. He listed some scriptures from Psalms, etc. that speak of the surety of God's unfailing love and related how when we parents, specifically Fathers build the security of our unconditional love into our children that makes them much more likely to listen to what we say and not stray from our example.
I have long been a believer in how when we fail to successfully model for our children what we say to them and tell them to do, we will succeed in building rebellious children. I believe that we as fathers MUST convince our children beyond a shadow of their doubt two things:
1. We love them, period. No matter how much we may HATE what they do, we STILL love THEM.
2. We CAN be trusted. We DO say what we mean and mean what we say.
I do not, nor will I ever believe, children "turn out." I'm aware of the things pulling children to rebel; deal with it on a daily basis. I believe you can predict with a high degree of certainty, if a child will rebel. I believe a parent can "lose" a child before age three, by age two, actually, if said parent teaches child they can't be trusted. I see parents doing that regularly, then wonder why, and say, "I can't get my kid(s) to do a damn thing I say."
One of the biggest traps he set for children is the well intentioned parent who doesn't recognize the subtle nature of his traps.
This subject is a BIG can of worms. Suffice it to say that the unconditional love of a father to his children gives that child the greastest opportunity to excel and succeed. I think that plays into this discussion in that when we know for certian that we can't "blow" our salvation that releases us from the fear and insecurity that comes with "I must do this or God will kill me..." Freedom to fail give the child the wings to fly to success.
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ChattyKathy
Howard, I haven't read this thread and probably won't as I limit my time here at gsc BUT....
I did read your last post and I admire your stand on "fatherhood". In light of THIS subject as well.
I grew up not having the love or acceptance of a father, he was there but absent from me. I spent my childhood and early teens trying to be good enough for him, and always failing! If I had to do that with my heavenly Father I might just say screw it!
You fathers that read this please DO NOT underestimate your role in your children's lives.
Sorry, this is a personal subject for me.
Goodbye!
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HCW
Thanks ChattyK.
Being a father is one of the two greatest things a man can do. One of the greatest complements I've ever received was when my daughter was talking to me about one of her friends who had told her that she, the friend, didn't think her father loved her. This friend has been a pretty constant topic of discussion. Things like, "Dad, You'll never believe what _________ did this time." Nothing really bad, just stuff that irritates my daughter & their other friend to no end. Like she's so neurotic, kinda stuff.
I asked my daughter, "Think about this. Do you have ANY doubt whatsoever that I love you and would walk through the hottest fire for you?" She said "No. ... Dad." In that very teenage, "...what a stupid question... don't you already KNOW the answer..." tone of voice.
My daughter has trouble grasping the concept that a father COULD not love his daughter. We went on to talk about the situation with her friend for the next hour & 1/2.
Of all the mistakes in my life, I've busted my foot to never miss the mark and hit the bull's eye on things that are the most important to HER. I have sacrificed, given up more lucrative professional opportunities to move elsewhere, just because when she was a little girl and I said, "Daddy has a chance to get a really good job if I moved..."
Her eyes began to fill up with tears, so I said, "...but I'm not taking it. Daddy's gonna stay right here, where you are." I wiped the tears from her eyes, hugger her, kissed her on the cheek & said, "Daddy will NEVER leave you; never."
I haven't. Now she's preparing to leave me. She's a National Merit Scholar preparing for her freshman year at Yale University who believes there is not a boy in the world who can MAKE her do anything. If she had a boyfriend (which she doesn't) who wanted to be with her in collges she says HE can switch HIS college to come with HER. She then MIGHT continue to date him, IF she had time.
I don't worry much about her getting raped, I worry about what she might do to somebody who tried it. You will not find a young lady with a higher sense of self esteem that her... she's tops. She knows I believe in her, I believe she is BEAUTIFUL, I believe she is GOOD, I believe she is SMART, and I believe that a decision she makes WILL be well thought out, even if I don't agree with it. She also knows if I don't agree with her, we'll talk about it and I will let her konw clearly what my thinking is and she has the right to do the same with me.
This isn't a derailment, this is a discussion of a loving relationship between father & child. This is what is at the root of my position in thinking that there is just NO way that our FATHER GOD, would ALLOW us to go to HELL...
AFTER HE redeemed us from death. I understand the free will to choose stuff & embrace it.
No, no way, no how, nope, nada. WOuld God leave that up to us, especially when he ALSO redeemed us from blowing it the first time. I have learned, from my CHILDREN... that there is a point at which their "love tank" is full. When its full and you keep right on pouring on the love to over flowing, they take the excess love and use it fuel EXCELLENCE in their lives.
When the tank is on full they have NO problem accepting that THEY don't have to do ANYTHING to earn love. When it is overflowing they have NO problem accepting that there is equally NOTHING they can do to LOSE the love.
They don't cause it to happen, they CAN'T stop it from coming. They feel free to do ANYTHING. even stuff they know they shouldn't do, BECAUSE, before they do it they KNOW, their Daddy will STILL love them... when "the trucks are broken."
If you can't get with what I'm saying, its cause maybe YOUR "love tank" isn't full?
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ChattyKathy
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HCW
Gee whiz ChattyK. You're such a warm and open soul. You are very welcome.
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ChattyKathy
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