Knock out a few of those question marks, willya?????????????
:)-->
Christian Biblical Counsel (V Finnegan) now teaches that salvation is for those who make a lifetime commitment to Christ.
I don't know about "how many sins does it take to get to the Gehenna center of a Tootsie Pop," but the point is that they no longer believe the new birth is the incorruptible seed that TWI taught it was. They believe the new birth is synonymous with the resurrection. I don't think they refer to themselves as "born again" anymore.
Through Jesus Christ, salvation is available as an indisputable free gift to man (Romans 3:21-24). Man cannot save himself (Ephesians 2:5-10). Man has the responsibility to have faith in God and the redeeming work of Christ (Romans 10:9 and 10). Faith implies obedience (James 2:14-26). If Jesus is our Lord, then we must obey. We are required to maintain faith unto the end (Hebrews 3; 6; 10) in order to enter the Kingdom.
Hi Raf. I'm not familiar with Rev Finnegan's teachings since he left TWI, but, judging from what you quoted above, I would have to say that's a biblially sound statement. My own studies over the past two years have lead me to the same conclusion. Salvation is by grace, but inheriting the kingdom seems to be a matter of faithfulness. This is mentioned,not only in the Hebrews passage cited above, but also in Ephesians 5:5-7
quote:
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
I think the new birth is simply a chance to start over. You get a clean slate, you get the gift of holy spirit (which in Ephesians chapter 1:14 is called the earnest--token--of our inheritance), you get fellowship with God and Christ. In short, the new birth, imho, equips you to do that which you could not do as a natural man; live a godly, righteous life. If, having been given all of those enablements, one fails to be faithful to God and Christ, he does not receive eternal life (or, in deference to Steve Lortz and Mark Sanginetti, life in the coming age).
II Peter chapter 2 also bears consideration along these lines. It depicts a dark future for Church leaders who corrupt themselves and abuse their ministries.
quote:
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.
Until now, I had thought I was the only ex-wayfer who had come to this conclusion, so I haven't talked about it much. I must say it's encouraging to see I'm not the only one who thinks this way.
Gee, why didnt someone tell Jesus that He didnt have to die...if we can work for it like they did in the OT. So what did his death really accomplish? Not a whole lot if Messrs. Finnegan and Barrax are correct in their theology. Can't have it both ways guys, we are either saved by works or by grace. If I receive the gift and still have to work to get into heaven then I'm not saved by grace but by my works.
Fortunately, Ephesians says that we are sealed with that holy spirit of promise until the day of redemption. Messrs. Finnegan and Barrax ain't breaking that seal any time soon.
Actually, a few of us here have argued that all men will ultimately be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. This is truly salvation by faith, except this faith is the faith of Jesus Christ himself. However, some will miss out on Jesus' 1000 year millenial kingdom which will take place on earth. For this argument try reading the Biblical Universalism thread. I am not going to repeat what I have written and posted over there for this thread.
These self serving, man made, slavery producing doctrines really .... me off. So I have to try to stay calm and relay a few points on the matter.
If one has experienced the new birth then he will know it. The baptism of Holy Spirit and fire is unmistakable. God will not go back on his word. If you have passed from death to life then it is done. Man cannot change what God has done in this matter.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire
escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
known the way of righteousness
And then
to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them
You are still free to do this...
again entangled therein, and overcome
Then this will happen....
the latter end is worse with them than the beginning
What was the beginning?
The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire
What was vomited out? What was the mire?
The latter end is worse.
What's worse that this person has to deal with?
Does VF really know what being born again is? Has he explained it? Doubt it. The person being born again needs no explanation for God/Christ will do the work. All men can do is to try to point you in the right direction. The rest is up to God/Christ.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
Yep, sorry no good results from this kind of behavior.
the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience
Our God is a consuming fire....what will survive it?
You don't think they resisted this conclusion just as strongly as you do now? These people were taught just as we were. But they studied and came to an opposite conclusion, and they're entitled to do so.
Why do you think it happened? Do you think they looked at three scriptures and said "whoops! changed my mind"?
I respect that it took a ton of soul-searching for them to go back on a popular doctrine.
By the way, VF teaches that "born again" is a reference to the resurrection, not to what we have long referred to as the "new birth." Jesus talked about being "born again" with Nicodemus. He expected Nicodemus to know what it was. That means whatever being "born again" means, it's not a part of some future "mystery" that Nicodemus could not be expected to know.
Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.
I'm really curious. I wondered if you commit any sin, then is it over? From a logical point of view, I feel that I would have to draw a line and know what sin would cross me off from salvation. I am not afraid to change my beliefs if I find out that I have been in error. I have been searching this out for some time. I am trying to understand their view. I don't know any one that has gone one day without committing a sin. (except Jesus) Whether it be having an evil thought or swearing or some other sin, which one would cause me not to have eternal life?
Who decides which sin will kill eternal life that GOD gave.
VF decides? Self serving.....
I don't have much time right now but maybe I can get into it more this weekend. And those other scriptures mentioned. Ask questions!!! Like I did on that peter thing and the other set of scriptures.
I'm not against anyone-I'm for Life!
I'll leave it with this-
After having passed from death to life can you pass back to death? My answer is No.
This is an interesting question if it is possible to lose salvation. After receiving salvation, wouldn't it be best to die right away so as not to take a chance that you make a mistake and then lose your salvation??
The concept of losing one's salvation is centuries old. Vince & Co. have uncovered nothing new.
It is self -serving, ALSO, by making them look smart enough to uncover their new version of the truth.
In fact, wasn't it Jesus' BROTHER John who first confronted this "teaching?"
I John 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us;)-->
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
If it is true that we can lose our salvation (ability to get into heaven) by sinning ...therefore NONE of us can get into heaven because we ALL sin. If we say we DON'T sin we MAKE HIM a liar, and HIS truth is NOT in us.
If it is true that we KEEP our salvation by what we do then we are saved by our works.
We are saved, redeemed from the DEAD by being born again. God saves us by His grace and MERCY.
Adam (mankind) DID lose his eternal life by his sin. Therefore we all, born of the seed of mankind, are born dead (without eternal life). Adam's sin effected all of us born after him (of the earth, earthly).
In order to obtain any type of sactification and justification mankind had to, via the works of the high priests (sanctified and purified ones who used the blood of sanctified, purified animals, approved of by God & the priests), have his sin covered by the blood (the life of the flesh is in the blood) of the sacrifice(s).
Jesus Christ, the SECOND Adam (mankind) paid the price (the wages [payment] of sin = death) for sin BY his death. Jesus was the highest of high priests (annointed by God with the ministry of forgiving sin) and he took our sin in his body (he BECAME sin FOR us). No only did he perform the blood ritual as the high priests did, he was BOTH the priest AND the sacrifice.
The other priests couldn't do what Jesus did because they were born with the sinful blood of Adam, as it was passed, from Adam through each generation. Hence Jesus' blood coming directly from God. The virgin conception was not the big deal from God's POV, the deal was that Jesus was NOT born of the seed of man (the seed of the woman from Genesis 3).
Therefore Jesus was born spotless (as a perfect sacrifice) and remained qualified to BE a sacrifice by HIS works, being that HE remained sinless until HIS death. Jesus, the SECOND Adam was a life-giving spirit.
As the SACRIFICE, Jesus sheding of his perfect blood as part of his death paid the price, the same as the shedding of the blood of the animals.
As the PRIEST, Jesus performed the ritual of the sacrifice of the lamb in that he GAVE his life by not fighting back or running away, or calling the legions of angels who would have joyfully saved him. The blood letting was performed by the Roman guards when they beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him,... some more.
Then they beat him....after they beat him - that is....
They BEAT him with all the anger of Lucifer, himself.
Then they mocked him.
Then they crammed a "crown" of 4" long thorns INTO his head.
Then they made him carry his own cross. This was after they put a robe on him & let the blood dry and stick to his ripped up skin.
Oh. Did I mention they then RIPPED the robe off of him... the one that had begun to stick to his open wounds (and some fo the ones that were beginning to heal.????
Then they made him carry the cross until he couldn't carry it anymore.
THEN they got some big, long nails and NAILED HIM up like hanging a picture.
The Jews (God's CHOSEN people) had this law so the Romans were gonna break his legs with a mallet or something so he's suffocate a little quicker. BUT. When they got to him they figured he was dead... so they stabbed him in the side, just make sure.
When he died his blood cleansed our sin the same way as the passover lamb cleansed sin prior. The difference is that passover lamb was only "perfect" on the outside, Jesus' PERFECT blood (from the inside) cleansed us all PERFECTLY.
Jesua stayed dead to fulfill the prophecy of Jonah in the belly of the sea monster. the moment that was fulfilled .
HE GOT UP. From the dead. God raised him from the dead by HIS grace & mercy.
HE IS RISEN He is no longer dead. He - IS - risen. (goosebumps!!!!!!!!!!)
We were with him (via his priesthood) in his death, so we came along with him when he got up. We can now be born AGAIN (after the death of Adam) with incorruptable seed. The seed of the woman which Jesus never allowed to be corrupted by living HIS sinless life.
God, since HE WANTED us (mankind) to live eternally in the first place, gives us life again by a free-will decision to accept it by believing what he said. Adam lost life eternal by his free-will decision to believe what LUCIFER said.
God was ....ed off by how Lucifer tricked Adam, so he didn't tell ANYONE his plan to fix it so Lucifer could NEVER do that again. (The great mystery).
Raf answered the self serving allegation of Messrs. Finnegan and Barrax doctrine of losing one's salvation is not self serving by observing that such a doctrine would drive away potential followers rather than recruit them.
I respectfully disagree with this observation. What is the dominant emotion when one considers that one's spiritual destiny (heaven or not) is not settled and there is possibility that one's human frailties (sin) keep one out of heaven...or worse damn one to hell. Clearly, that emotion is Fear. It is a very slick move not unlike the snake oil salesmen used to employ on the unwary...create a dreadful possibility and conveniently offer the "remedy."
Just another controlling device employed by those who lust for power over people.
I respectfully accept your respectful disagreement.
But I don't see not one hint of a self-serving attitude in Jerry Barrax. Not even a little. Not a hint. Nothing. Zip. He's got no followers. He's got no church. He's got no control over anyone. He just sincerely thinks that's what the Bible teaches.
I don't assign the same motives to VF as some others here do, but that's me. I also haven't dealt with him since he made this doctrinal change.
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son , and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
... into believing that Jesus accomplished nothing, with his life, death, and ressurection. And they would have you to believe that after all God gave up to redeem us, he'd leave it to US to LOSE IT AGAIN.
See; this BS was around 2000 years ago, YAY, Vince! Thanks for reminding us!
I John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
His seed REMAINS in him (PERIOD.)... Because he is born of God.
Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil, who sinned from the beginning.
I John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
Yeah, some of 'em teach that you're NOT born again of incorruptable seed. BUT. ! John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
v:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. ... when they say Jesus could NEVER have accomplished all that!
God wants us to have life. v:9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
v:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. ...payment in full for our sins. I guess we run up new sin debt on our clean slate after we get born again.... Is that what you're saying?
IF we are born again, we WILL LIVE it. I guess that includes knowing it. 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. v:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
This book of John says some really heavy duty stuff soncerning sin, eternal life, the antichrist, etc. To me one of the most heavy duty things is this:
I John 2:18, 19 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
v:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
This seems to say (considering the whole context of the books of John) that there are some who, although they were "with" the believers, they were not actually born again, they only acted like they were part of "the faith," going through the motions. Because if they actually WERE "OF" us, as in being born again, they would live like we do and REMAIN with us, living as we live.
John seems to me to be encouraging the believers; letting them know that the reason they are loving each other as they are is that the Holy Spirit lives in them and has changed their lives in that manner (giving them life). He chills them out by telling them that those among them who "hateth his brother" is lying and God's truth does NOT live in them, the spirit part of a man cannot sin, in fact it inspires one from within to live, loving his brother.
Further he relieves their concerns by telling them that those who have left the ranks were never REALLY a part of them. But over all he's saying, I'm writing you so that your JOY can be FULL. God loved you SO much he gave his son for you once and for all. It was a gift of his great LOVE. and you have it forever.
I've always thought that this indicates that a LOT of people who say they're born again, going to heaven, et. al. ain't goin' nowhere.... AND you can tell who they are by the way they act towards each other from the heart.
This goes beyond just getting mad at people on occasion. This is talking about how people actually live. Including false prophets ....
"My own studies over the past two years have lead me to the same conclusion. Salvation is by grace, but inheriting the kingdom seems to be a matter of faithfulness."
If you are saved-having experienced the new birth, you have ALREADY entered the kingdom.
What you do with it, how you steward such a gift is between God and that person and NOBODY elses business! Of course you can get help from others if you want but that's up to you.
Let me say that I have no intention of recruiting followers. My opinion is based on several years of study and wrangling with the Scriptures. I am simply trying to arrive at a doctrine that is based on the entirety of what's actually written in the Bible. It's become clear to me that the simple "Once saved, always saved" doctrine taught in PFAL isn't based on a comprehensive study of the Scriptures. I think most of us will agree that there are large gaps and flaws in what we were taught.
As I've looked at the New Testament Scriptures regarding salvation, I've found that there are actually two bodies of Scripture in the New Testament. There are plenty of verses that indicate that salvation is not by works, but by grace, including Ephesians 2:8 and Romans 6:23.
But there are other verses, written by the same Apostle, in the same epistles, that indicate that eternal life and inheritance in the Kingdom of God are by works, such as Ephesians 5:5-7, and Romans 2:6 (more on that later).
It seems to me most people simply choose sides and embrace one set of verses and ignore the other. The "Once saved, always saved" camp shouts about Ephesians 2:8 and ignores Ephesians 5:5 and the "Backslidden" camp does the opposite. I'd like to think there's a better way to approach this. My belief is that whenever two extreme opinions are debated back and forth with equal vehemence by good people, it's becaause the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I believe that salvation is by grace and that inheritance in the Kingdom is by faithfulness. These seem contradictory statements from a TWI mindset, but they're not. I can't explain the whole thing in one post, so I will try to present seperate pieces of the puzzle I've been putting together as time allows. Please keep in mind that I work ten hour days now, so your posts will outnumber mine and my repsonses may be sparce or slow in coming. It's not because I'm arrogrant, I'm just very busy. :-)
I can't speak for Rev Finnegan, so I can't address questions about what he teaches, but I can tell you why I am where I am. If it makes sense to you fine. If not, let me know. I'm not opposed to changing my mind when truth is presented. That's how I got here. :-)
Oh, and one more thing. My belief that entrance into the Kingdom is based on works and faithfulness is not self serving because I may not get in myself. I make no claims that I'm more deserving than anyone else. I'm just trying to share the truth as I see it.
I’m no longer a Christian, so this really doesn’t matter to me, but it seems to me that there’s a big difference between committing a sin and not maintaining faith and corresponding obedience (as a way of living).
Maybe I’m a pretty good example.
According to TWI doctrine, I was saved, born again, “bound for heaven and all hell can’t stop me from getting there.” I “knew that I knew that I knew that I knew,” because I spoke in tongues. Be that as it may, I was sincere in confessing Jesus as lord and trying to faithfully live by the precepts of the Bible. I don’t know that I actually believed it, but I sure tried to convince myself that I did.
I am no longer a Christian and don’t even believe in the Christian God or any other deity. I don’t go around “sinning” any more than I did as a Christian. The big difference in my life now is that I don’t believe in, seek, pray to, obey, or otherwise pay attention to the Christian God. (I hope that doesn’t offend anyone, it’s not meant to.)
If I ever “was saved” or was on a path of salvation, but now am not, I think the reason most Christians who believe in a conditional salvation would give would be lack of faith (a condition of sin or disobedience), rather than any “sins” or specific disobedient acts.
I don’t see this interpretation as self-serving. It seems like a (not the only) fairly reasonable interpretation of the Bible.
You quoted II Peter 2:20 and posed a few questions. I'll try to address them to the best of my ability. I think this is a very important passage of Scripture. It's actually the one that started me on the path of reconsidering what TWI taught way back in 1998. Back when I was still a die-hard PFAL fan, this was the first thing I saw in the Scripture that indicated that we had missed something.
You asked, "What was the beginning?". The beginning was being a natural man without holy spirit and with no personal connection with God or Christ. Just body and soul. They could not be judged harshly by God because they were ignorant of just how good and awesome God is. The latter end is worse than the beginning because, "after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,...", they can't claim ignorance anymore. Those who turn their backs on the goodness of God after having received holy spirit are worthy of a harsher judgment than those who do so out of ignorance. Hebrews 10:29 refers to this. It sounds mean and severe perhaps, but judging an experienced believer by a higher standard than an ignorant unbeliever is not a radical idea. It's in the Old Testament as well, and in the Gospels.
Ezekiel 18:20-25. The Way of the Lord is Not Equal
quote:
20 The soul that sinneth, it shall die. The son shall not bear the iniquity of the father, neither shall the father bear the iniquity of the son: the righteousness of the righteous shall be upon him, and the wickedness of the wicked shall be upon him.
21 But if the wicked will turn from all his sins that he hath committed, and keep all my statutes, and do that which is lawful and right, he shall surely live, he shall not die.
22 All his transgressions that he hath committed, they shall not be mentioned unto him: in his righteousness that he hath done he shall live.
23 Have I any pleasure at all that the wicked should die? saith the Lord GOD: and not that he should return from his ways, and live?
24 But when the righteous turneth away from his righteousness, and committeth iniquity, and doeth according to all the abominations that the wicked man doeth, shall he live? All his righteousness that he hath done shall not be mentioned: in his trespass that he hath trespassed, and in his sin that he hath sinned, in them shall he die.
25 Yet ye say, The way of the Lord is not equal.
I know this is part of the Old Testament law from which Christ redeemed us. I'm just making a point about the different standards of judgment between rank unbelievers and righteous folk
Luke 12:43-48: Unto Whomsoever much is given, much is required
quote:
43 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.
44 Of a truth I say unto you, that he will make him ruler over all that he hath.
45 But and if that servant say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming; and shall begin to beat the menservants and maidens, and to eat and drink, and to be drunken;
46 The lord of that servant will come in a day when he looketh not for him, and at an hour when he is not aware, and will cut him in sunder, and will appoint him his portion with the unbelievers.
47 And that servant, which knew his lord's will, and prepared not himself, neither did according to his will, shall be beaten with many stripes.
48 But he that knew not, and did commit things worthy of stripes, shall be beaten with few stripes. For unto whomsoever much is given, of him shall be much required: and to whom men have committed much, of him they will ask the more.
You also asked, "What's worse that this person has to deal with?" The answer is right there in the context. In the beginning, as a natural man, the worst that could be expected was the second death of Revelation 20:6-15. There's nothing enduring about it. You live, you die, you're raised to judgment, you die again. End of story. The fate worse than death is that described in II Peter 2:17.
quote:
These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.
That's an eternal punishment. That's why, imho, it says that their latter end is worse than the beginning.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I cannot speak for Vince Finnegan, so what he understands the new birth to be I cannot say. Finally CM, you referred to the verses in Ephesians 5:5-7 and then, rather flippantly said, "Yep, sorry no good results from this kind of behavior."
How does that dismiss the gravity of those verses or attempt to deal with what they teach?
It clearly states that there are people in the Church (that's who Ephesians is written to) who will have no inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ. The question is, what does that mean? We've been ignoring this passage for years because it doesn't fit what we were taught and we don't want to deal with what it appears to teach. Paul's tone is one of a serious warning. "Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. And, just in case you think that means it cant' also happen to one of us,
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
If Paul warned the Ephesians to be not partakers with the children of disobience in the wrath of God, then, to paraphrase VP, it must be available! This is a possibility we should be aware of and avoid.
INHERITANCE
The key to approaching this verse is in understanding the Biblical meaninf of the word "inheritance". Biblically speaking, an inheritance is a birthright; something reserved for a son by his father just because he is born into the family. But a son can be disinherited for rebellion against his father, or lose his inheritance because of faithlessness just as Esau did.
Hebrews 6:12 encourages us to be followers of those who "through faith and patience inherit the promises." So inheritance is not just a matter of birthright, but a birhright realized through faith and patience. Faith and patience are the keys to realizing our new birthright and receiving the fulness of what God has promised his children; inheritance in the kingdom of Christ.
Hebrews three and four use the Children of Israel as an example of losing a promised inheritance by unbelief. The twelve tribes were lead out of Egypt and promised the Land of Canaan. They were given inheritance in the land God had promised to Abraham and, as the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, it was theirs to inherit. But they failed to do so because of unbelief.
3:8-14
quote:
8 Harden not your hearts, as in the provocation, in the day of temptation in the wilderness:
9 When your fathers tempted me, proved me, and saw my works forty years.
10 Wherefore I was grieved with that generation, and said, They do alway err in their heart; and they have not known my ways.
11 So I sware in my wrath, They shall not enter into my rest)
But that was the Old Testament, the Law, you say. What has that got to do with us? We have incorruptible seed, don't we? Well, keep reading.
quote:
12 Take heed, brethren, lest there be in any of you an evil heart of unbelief, in departing from the living God.
13 But exhort one another daily, while it is called To day; lest any of you be hardened through the deceitfulness of sin.
14 For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;
Hebrews chapter three clearly states that, just as the children of Israel failed to receive the inheritance in the promised land, we can fail to receive our inheritance in Christ by unbelief. We are made partakers in Christ, fully receiving our share, our inheritance in His kingdom, IF we hold fast our confidence stedfast unto the end. Are we going to continue to ignore these passages, just because we don't like the message?
Hebrews chapter four continues this and reinforces this message of conditional inheritance.
quote:
4 For he spake in a certain place of the seventh day on this wise, And God did rest the seventh day from all his works.
5 And in this place again, If they shall enter into my rest.
6 Seeing therefore it remaineth that some must enter therein, and they to whom it was first preached entered not in because of unbelief:
7 Again, he limiteth a certain day, saying in David, To day, after so long a time; as it is said, To day if ye will hear his voice, harden not your hearts.
8 For if Jesus had given them rest, then would he not afterward have spoken of another day.
9 There remaineth therefore a rest to the people of God.
10 For he that is entered into his rest, he also hath ceased from his own works, as God did from his.
11 Let us labour therefore to enter into that rest, lest any man fall after the same example of unbelief.
On the surface it seems contradictory. He that is entered into his rest hath ceased from his own works. Then, isn't salvation by grace alone?. No, because verse 11 exhorts us to "labor therefore, to enter into that rest". The rest spoken of is a future rest in God's Kingdom, not peace of mind. And again, it asserts that it is possible, by failing to continue to labor in Christ, fall after the same example fo unbelief. So there it is, plain and simple. Christianity is not a free ride to eternal life on the back of the Messiah. It's an opportunity to start over with the gift of the righteousness of God, the gift of holy spirit, and access to the throne of God by faith of Jesus Christ. It's a chance to do that which we were utterly unable to do as natural men. To serve God in Christ's stead, in righteousness and holiness.
We have oftne rebutted the idea of losing salvation by arguing that it doesn't make sense to teach that you can lose something by your works that you didn't earn my works. The greater truth is, salvation is God's graciously giving us an ability that we didn't have before and calling us to use that ability to live in a manner that we were uncapable of living before.
We can't live a lifetime of faitfhulness and godliness by our own works. That's why God gave us His own righteousness, holy spirit, his love, his very nature, and called us to use it accordingly. That's what Ephesians 2:10 really means.
quote:
8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.
10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus UNTO GOOD WORKS, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.
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Raf
Knock out a few of those question marks, willya?????????????
Christian Biblical Counsel (V Finnegan) now teaches that salvation is for those who make a lifetime commitment to Christ.
I don't know about "how many sins does it take to get to the Gehenna center of a Tootsie Pop," but the point is that they no longer believe the new birth is the incorruptible seed that TWI taught it was. They believe the new birth is synonymous with the resurrection. I don't think they refer to themselves as "born again" anymore.
new birth = resurrection
incorruptible seed = the Word of God
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Raf
From their statement of beliefs:
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gladtobeout
I tried to get rid of some of the ?marks, but they don't want to go away.
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Jbarrax
Hi Raf. I'm not familiar with Rev Finnegan's teachings since he left TWI, but, judging from what you quoted above, I would have to say that's a biblially sound statement. My own studies over the past two years have lead me to the same conclusion. Salvation is by grace, but inheriting the kingdom seems to be a matter of faithfulness. This is mentioned,not only in the Hebrews passage cited above, but also in Ephesians 5:5-7
I think the new birth is simply a chance to start over. You get a clean slate, you get the gift of holy spirit (which in Ephesians chapter 1:14 is called the earnest--token--of our inheritance), you get fellowship with God and Christ. In short, the new birth, imho, equips you to do that which you could not do as a natural man; live a godly, righteous life. If, having been given all of those enablements, one fails to be faithful to God and Christ, he does not receive eternal life (or, in deference to Steve Lortz and Mark Sanginetti, life in the coming age).
II Peter chapter 2 also bears consideration along these lines. It depicts a dark future for Church leaders who corrupt themselves and abuse their ministries.
Until now, I had thought I was the only ex-wayfer who had come to this conclusion, so I haven't talked about it much. I must say it's encouraging to see I'm not the only one who thinks this way.
Peace
JerryB
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Raf
I think others have come to that conclusion, though not nearly as politely.
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CM
Wisdom keeps me from saying what I think here.
If it is done then it is done.
More later maybe....
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oenophile
Gee, why didnt someone tell Jesus that He didnt have to die...if we can work for it like they did in the OT. So what did his death really accomplish? Not a whole lot if Messrs. Finnegan and Barrax are correct in their theology. Can't have it both ways guys, we are either saved by works or by grace. If I receive the gift and still have to work to get into heaven then I'm not saved by grace but by my works.
Fortunately, Ephesians says that we are sealed with that holy spirit of promise until the day of redemption. Messrs. Finnegan and Barrax ain't breaking that seal any time soon.
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Mark Sanguinetti
Actually, a few of us here have argued that all men will ultimately be reconciled to God through Jesus Christ. This is truly salvation by faith, except this faith is the faith of Jesus Christ himself. However, some will miss out on Jesus' 1000 year millenial kingdom which will take place on earth. For this argument try reading the Biblical Universalism thread. I am not going to repeat what I have written and posted over there for this thread.
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CM
These self serving, man made, slavery producing doctrines really .... me off. So I have to try to stay calm and relay a few points on the matter.
If one has experienced the new birth then he will know it. The baptism of Holy Spirit and fire is unmistakable. God will not go back on his word. If you have passed from death to life then it is done. Man cannot change what God has done in this matter.
20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.
21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.
22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire
escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ
known the way of righteousness
And then
to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them
You are still free to do this...
again entangled therein, and overcome
Then this will happen....
the latter end is worse with them than the beginning
What was the beginning?
The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire
What was vomited out? What was the mire?
The latter end is worse.
What's worse that this person has to deal with?
Does VF really know what being born again is? Has he explained it? Doubt it. The person being born again needs no explanation for God/Christ will do the work. All men can do is to try to point you in the right direction. The rest is up to God/Christ.
5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.
6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God
Yep, sorry no good results from this kind of behavior.
the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience
Our God is a consuming fire....what will survive it?
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Raf
Self serving, man made, slavery... ?
You don't think they resisted this conclusion just as strongly as you do now? These people were taught just as we were. But they studied and came to an opposite conclusion, and they're entitled to do so.
Why do you think it happened? Do you think they looked at three scriptures and said "whoops! changed my mind"?
I respect that it took a ton of soul-searching for them to go back on a popular doctrine.
By the way, VF teaches that "born again" is a reference to the resurrection, not to what we have long referred to as the "new birth." Jesus talked about being "born again" with Nicodemus. He expected Nicodemus to know what it was. That means whatever being "born again" means, it's not a part of some future "mystery" that Nicodemus could not be expected to know.
Prove all things. Hold fast to that which is good.
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CM
If you want to think that you have to wait till some future resurrection for the new birth/being born again then that's your privilege.
I think differently.
Born again is a reference to resurrection. And it can happen now.
Salvation, wholeness, new birth, all can happen now.
While it's not yet fully complete, there are some things
that you can count on now.
I'm not going to try and prove it to anyone.
I've proved it to myself.
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Raf
Ok.
I happen to agree with you. But I still don't see anything self-serving about the stand they're taking. If anything, I'll be it cost them followers.
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gladtobeout
I'm really curious. I wondered if you commit any sin, then is it over? From a logical point of view, I feel that I would have to draw a line and know what sin would cross me off from salvation. I am not afraid to change my beliefs if I find out that I have been in error. I have been searching this out for some time. I am trying to understand their view. I don't know any one that has gone one day without committing a sin. (except Jesus) Whether it be having an evil thought or swearing or some other sin, which one would cause me not to have eternal life?
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Raf
That, I don't know.
My stand has always been, believe that I'm right, behave as if they are right.
:)-->
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CM
It's a bunch of bs gladtobeout.
Yeah who decides what that christian service is?
Who decides which sin will kill eternal life that GOD gave.
VF decides? Self serving.....
I don't have much time right now but maybe I can get into it more this weekend. And those other scriptures mentioned. Ask questions!!! Like I did on that peter thing and the other set of scriptures.
I'm not against anyone-I'm for Life!
I'll leave it with this-
After having passed from death to life can you pass back to death? My answer is No.
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gladtobeout
This is an interesting question if it is possible to lose salvation. After receiving salvation, wouldn't it be best to die right away so as not to take a chance that you make a mistake and then lose your salvation??
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HCW
The concept of losing one's salvation is centuries old. Vince & Co. have uncovered nothing new.
It is self -serving, ALSO, by making them look smart enough to uncover their new version of the truth.
In fact, wasn't it Jesus' BROTHER John who first confronted this "teaching?"
I John 1:
1 That which was from the beginning, which we have heard, which we have seen with our eyes, which we have looked upon, and our hands have handled, of the Word of life;
2 (For the life was manifested, and we have seen it, and bear witness, and shew unto you that eternal life, which was with the Father, and was manifested unto us
;)-->
3 That which we have seen and heard declare we unto you, that ye also may have fellowship with us: and truly our fellowship is with the Father, and with his Son Jesus Christ.
4 And these things write we unto you, that your joy may be full.
5 This then is the message which we have heard of him, and declare unto you, that God is light, and in him is no darkness at all.
6 If we say that we have fellowship with him, and walk in darkness, we lie, and do not the truth:
7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
8 If we say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us.
9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.
10 If we say that we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us.
If it is true that we can lose our salvation (ability to get into heaven) by sinning ...therefore NONE of us can get into heaven because we ALL sin. If we say we DON'T sin we MAKE HIM a liar, and HIS truth is NOT in us.
If it is true that we KEEP our salvation by what we do then we are saved by our works.
We are saved, redeemed from the DEAD by being born again. God saves us by His grace and MERCY.
Adam (mankind) DID lose his eternal life by his sin. Therefore we all, born of the seed of mankind, are born dead (without eternal life). Adam's sin effected all of us born after him (of the earth, earthly).
In order to obtain any type of sactification and justification mankind had to, via the works of the high priests (sanctified and purified ones who used the blood of sanctified, purified animals, approved of by God & the priests), have his sin covered by the blood (the life of the flesh is in the blood) of the sacrifice(s).
Jesus Christ, the SECOND Adam (mankind) paid the price (the wages [payment] of sin = death) for sin BY his death. Jesus was the highest of high priests (annointed by God with the ministry of forgiving sin) and he took our sin in his body (he BECAME sin FOR us). No only did he perform the blood ritual as the high priests did, he was BOTH the priest AND the sacrifice.
The other priests couldn't do what Jesus did because they were born with the sinful blood of Adam, as it was passed, from Adam through each generation. Hence Jesus' blood coming directly from God. The virgin conception was not the big deal from God's POV, the deal was that Jesus was NOT born of the seed of man (the seed of the woman from Genesis 3).
Therefore Jesus was born spotless (as a perfect sacrifice) and remained qualified to BE a sacrifice by HIS works, being that HE remained sinless until HIS death. Jesus, the SECOND Adam was a life-giving spirit.
As the SACRIFICE, Jesus sheding of his perfect blood as part of his death paid the price, the same as the shedding of the blood of the animals.
As the PRIEST, Jesus performed the ritual of the sacrifice of the lamb in that he GAVE his life by not fighting back or running away, or calling the legions of angels who would have joyfully saved him. The blood letting was performed by the Roman guards when they beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him, and beat him,... some more.
Then they beat him....after they beat him - that is....
They BEAT him with all the anger of Lucifer, himself.
Then they mocked him.
Then they crammed a "crown" of 4" long thorns INTO his head.
Then they made him carry his own cross. This was after they put a robe on him & let the blood dry and stick to his ripped up skin.
Oh. Did I mention they then RIPPED the robe off of him... the one that had begun to stick to his open wounds (and some fo the ones that were beginning to heal.????
Then they made him carry the cross until he couldn't carry it anymore.
THEN they got some big, long nails and NAILED HIM up like hanging a picture.
The Jews (God's CHOSEN people) had this law so the Romans were gonna break his legs with a mallet or something so he's suffocate a little quicker. BUT. When they got to him they figured he was dead... so they stabbed him in the side, just make sure.
When he died his blood cleansed our sin the same way as the passover lamb cleansed sin prior. The difference is that passover lamb was only "perfect" on the outside, Jesus' PERFECT blood (from the inside) cleansed us all PERFECTLY.
Jesua stayed dead to fulfill the prophecy of Jonah in the belly of the sea monster. the moment that was fulfilled .
HE GOT UP. From the dead. God raised him from the dead by HIS grace & mercy.
HE IS RISEN He is no longer dead. He - IS - risen. (goosebumps!!!!!!!!!!)
We were with him (via his priesthood) in his death, so we came along with him when he got up. We can now be born AGAIN (after the death of Adam) with incorruptable seed. The seed of the woman which Jesus never allowed to be corrupted by living HIS sinless life.
God, since HE WANTED us (mankind) to live eternally in the first place, gives us life again by a free-will decision to accept it by believing what he said. Adam lost life eternal by his free-will decision to believe what LUCIFER said.
God was ....ed off by how Lucifer tricked Adam, so he didn't tell ANYONE his plan to fix it so Lucifer could NEVER do that again. (The great mystery).
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oenophile
Raf answered the self serving allegation of Messrs. Finnegan and Barrax doctrine of losing one's salvation is not self serving by observing that such a doctrine would drive away potential followers rather than recruit them.
I respectfully disagree with this observation. What is the dominant emotion when one considers that one's spiritual destiny (heaven or not) is not settled and there is possibility that one's human frailties (sin) keep one out of heaven...or worse damn one to hell. Clearly, that emotion is Fear. It is a very slick move not unlike the snake oil salesmen used to employ on the unwary...create a dreadful possibility and conveniently offer the "remedy."
Just another controlling device employed by those who lust for power over people.
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Raf
I respectfully accept your respectful disagreement.
But I don't see not one hint of a self-serving attitude in Jerry Barrax. Not even a little. Not a hint. Nothing. Zip. He's got no followers. He's got no church. He's got no control over anyone. He just sincerely thinks that's what the Bible teaches.
I don't assign the same motives to VF as some others here do, but that's me. I also haven't dealt with him since he made this doctrinal change.
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HCW
1 John 2:24
Let that therefore abide in you, which ye have heard from the beginning. If that which ye have heard from the beginning shall remain in you, ye also shall continue in the Son , and in the Father.
25 And this is the promise that he hath promised us, even eternal life.
26 These things have I written unto you concerning them that seduce you.
... into believing that Jesus accomplished nothing, with his life, death, and ressurection. And they would have you to believe that after all God gave up to redeem us, he'd leave it to US to LOSE IT AGAIN.
See; this BS was around 2000 years ago, YAY, Vince! Thanks for reminding us!
I John 3:1 Behold, what manner of love the Father hath bestowed upon us, that we should be called the sons of God: therefore the world knoweth us not, because it knew him not.
2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.
4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.
5 And ye know that he was manifested to take away our sins; and in him is no sin.
6 Whosoever abideth in him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen him, neither known him.
7 Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as he is righteous.
8 He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil.
9 Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.
His seed REMAINS in him (PERIOD.)... Because he is born of God.
Jesus was manifested to destroy the works of the devil, who sinned from the beginning.
I John 4:1 "Beloved, believe not every spirit, but try the spirits whether they are of God: because many false prophets are gone out into the world."
Yeah, some of 'em teach that you're NOT born again of incorruptable seed. BUT. ! John 4:4
Ye are of God, little children, and have overcome them: because greater is he that is in you, than he that is in the world.
v:5 They are of the world: therefore speak they of the world, and the world heareth them. ... when they say Jesus could NEVER have accomplished all that!
God wants us to have life. v:9In this was manifested the love of God toward us, because that God sent his only begotten Son into the world, that we might live through him.
v:10 Herein is love, not that we loved God, but that he loved us, and sent his Son to be the propitiation for our sins. ...payment in full for our sins. I guess we run up new sin debt on our clean slate after we get born again.... Is that what you're saying?
IF we are born again, we WILL LIVE it. I guess that includes knowing it. 1 John 4:7 Beloved, let us love one another: for love is of God; and every one that loveth is born of God, and knoweth God. v:8 He that loveth not knoweth not God; for God is love.
This book of John says some really heavy duty stuff soncerning sin, eternal life, the antichrist, etc. To me one of the most heavy duty things is this:
I John 2:18, 19 Little children, it is the last time: and as ye have heard that antichrist shall come, even now are there many antichrists; whereby we know that it is the last time.
v:19 They went out from us, but they were not of us; for if they had been of us, they would no doubt have continued with us: but they went out, that they might be made manifest that they were not all of us.
This seems to say (considering the whole context of the books of John) that there are some who, although they were "with" the believers, they were not actually born again, they only acted like they were part of "the faith," going through the motions. Because if they actually WERE "OF" us, as in being born again, they would live like we do and REMAIN with us, living as we live.
John seems to me to be encouraging the believers; letting them know that the reason they are loving each other as they are is that the Holy Spirit lives in them and has changed their lives in that manner (giving them life). He chills them out by telling them that those among them who "hateth his brother" is lying and God's truth does NOT live in them, the spirit part of a man cannot sin, in fact it inspires one from within to live, loving his brother.
Further he relieves their concerns by telling them that those who have left the ranks were never REALLY a part of them. But over all he's saying, I'm writing you so that your JOY can be FULL. God loved you SO much he gave his son for you once and for all. It was a gift of his great LOVE. and you have it forever.
I've always thought that this indicates that a LOT of people who say they're born again, going to heaven, et. al. ain't goin' nowhere.... AND you can tell who they are by the way they act towards each other from the heart.
This goes beyond just getting mad at people on occasion. This is talking about how people actually live. Including false prophets ....
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CM
Got a little time here at work...
JB-
"My own studies over the past two years have lead me to the same conclusion. Salvation is by grace, but inheriting the kingdom seems to be a matter of faithfulness."
If you are saved-having experienced the new birth, you have ALREADY entered the kingdom.
What you do with it, how you steward such a gift is between God and that person and NOBODY elses business! Of course you can get help from others if you want but that's up to you.
This IS what Jesus was talking about....
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Jbarrax
Thanks Raf.
Let me say that I have no intention of recruiting followers. My opinion is based on several years of study and wrangling with the Scriptures. I am simply trying to arrive at a doctrine that is based on the entirety of what's actually written in the Bible. It's become clear to me that the simple "Once saved, always saved" doctrine taught in PFAL isn't based on a comprehensive study of the Scriptures. I think most of us will agree that there are large gaps and flaws in what we were taught.
As I've looked at the New Testament Scriptures regarding salvation, I've found that there are actually two bodies of Scripture in the New Testament. There are plenty of verses that indicate that salvation is not by works, but by grace, including Ephesians 2:8 and Romans 6:23.
But there are other verses, written by the same Apostle, in the same epistles, that indicate that eternal life and inheritance in the Kingdom of God are by works, such as Ephesians 5:5-7, and Romans 2:6 (more on that later).
It seems to me most people simply choose sides and embrace one set of verses and ignore the other. The "Once saved, always saved" camp shouts about Ephesians 2:8 and ignores Ephesians 5:5 and the "Backslidden" camp does the opposite. I'd like to think there's a better way to approach this. My belief is that whenever two extreme opinions are debated back and forth with equal vehemence by good people, it's becaause the truth is somewhere in the middle.
I believe that salvation is by grace and that inheritance in the Kingdom is by faithfulness. These seem contradictory statements from a TWI mindset, but they're not. I can't explain the whole thing in one post, so I will try to present seperate pieces of the puzzle I've been putting together as time allows. Please keep in mind that I work ten hour days now, so your posts will outnumber mine and my repsonses may be sparce or slow in coming. It's not because I'm arrogrant, I'm just very busy. :-)
I can't speak for Rev Finnegan, so I can't address questions about what he teaches, but I can tell you why I am where I am. If it makes sense to you fine. If not, let me know. I'm not opposed to changing my mind when truth is presented. That's how I got here. :-)
Oh, and one more thing. My belief that entrance into the Kingdom is based on works and faithfulness is not self serving because I may not get in myself. I make no claims that I'm more deserving than anyone else. I'm just trying to share the truth as I see it.
Peace
JerryB
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LG
I’m no longer a Christian, so this really doesn’t matter to me, but it seems to me that there’s a big difference between committing a sin and not maintaining faith and corresponding obedience (as a way of living).
Maybe I’m a pretty good example.
According to TWI doctrine, I was saved, born again, “bound for heaven and all hell can’t stop me from getting there.” I “knew that I knew that I knew that I knew,” because I spoke in tongues. Be that as it may, I was sincere in confessing Jesus as lord and trying to faithfully live by the precepts of the Bible. I don’t know that I actually believed it, but I sure tried to convince myself that I did.
I am no longer a Christian and don’t even believe in the Christian God or any other deity. I don’t go around “sinning” any more than I did as a Christian. The big difference in my life now is that I don’t believe in, seek, pray to, obey, or otherwise pay attention to the Christian God. (I hope that doesn’t offend anyone, it’s not meant to.)
If I ever “was saved” or was on a path of salvation, but now am not, I think the reason most Christians who believe in a conditional salvation would give would be lack of faith (a condition of sin or disobedience), rather than any “sins” or specific disobedient acts.
I don’t see this interpretation as self-serving. It seems like a (not the only) fairly reasonable interpretation of the Bible.
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Jbarrax
Reply to CM
You quoted II Peter 2:20 and posed a few questions. I'll try to address them to the best of my ability. I think this is a very important passage of Scripture. It's actually the one that started me on the path of reconsidering what TWI taught way back in 1998. Back when I was still a die-hard PFAL fan, this was the first thing I saw in the Scripture that indicated that we had missed something.
You asked, "What was the beginning?". The beginning was being a natural man without holy spirit and with no personal connection with God or Christ. Just body and soul. They could not be judged harshly by God because they were ignorant of just how good and awesome God is. The latter end is worse than the beginning because, "after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ,...", they can't claim ignorance anymore. Those who turn their backs on the goodness of God after having received holy spirit are worthy of a harsher judgment than those who do so out of ignorance. Hebrews 10:29 refers to this. It sounds mean and severe perhaps, but judging an experienced believer by a higher standard than an ignorant unbeliever is not a radical idea. It's in the Old Testament as well, and in the Gospels.
Ezekiel 18:20-25. The Way of the Lord is Not Equal
I know this is part of the Old Testament law from which Christ redeemed us. I'm just making a point about the different standards of judgment between rank unbelievers and righteous folk
Luke 12:43-48: Unto Whomsoever much is given, much is required
You also asked, "What's worse that this person has to deal with?" The answer is right there in the context. In the beginning, as a natural man, the worst that could be expected was the second death of Revelation 20:6-15. There's nothing enduring about it. You live, you die, you're raised to judgment, you die again. End of story. The fate worse than death is that described in II Peter 2:17.
That's an eternal punishment. That's why, imho, it says that their latter end is worse than the beginning.
As I mentioned in my previous post, I cannot speak for Vince Finnegan, so what he understands the new birth to be I cannot say. Finally CM, you referred to the verses in Ephesians 5:5-7 and then, rather flippantly said, "Yep, sorry no good results from this kind of behavior."
How does that dismiss the gravity of those verses or attempt to deal with what they teach?
It clearly states that there are people in the Church (that's who Ephesians is written to) who will have no inheritance in the Kingdom of Christ. The question is, what does that mean? We've been ignoring this passage for years because it doesn't fit what we were taught and we don't want to deal with what it appears to teach. Paul's tone is one of a serious warning. "Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience. And, just in case you think that means it cant' also happen to one of us,
7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.
If Paul warned the Ephesians to be not partakers with the children of disobience in the wrath of God, then, to paraphrase VP, it must be available! This is a possibility we should be aware of and avoid.
INHERITANCE
The key to approaching this verse is in understanding the Biblical meaninf of the word "inheritance". Biblically speaking, an inheritance is a birthright; something reserved for a son by his father just because he is born into the family. But a son can be disinherited for rebellion against his father, or lose his inheritance because of faithlessness just as Esau did.
Hebrews 6:12 encourages us to be followers of those who "through faith and patience inherit the promises." So inheritance is not just a matter of birthright, but a birhright realized through faith and patience. Faith and patience are the keys to realizing our new birthright and receiving the fulness of what God has promised his children; inheritance in the kingdom of Christ.
Hebrews three and four use the Children of Israel as an example of losing a promised inheritance by unbelief. The twelve tribes were lead out of Egypt and promised the Land of Canaan. They were given inheritance in the land God had promised to Abraham and, as the descendants of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob, it was theirs to inherit. But they failed to do so because of unbelief.
3:8-14
But that was the Old Testament, the Law, you say. What has that got to do with us? We have incorruptible seed, don't we? Well, keep reading.
Hebrews chapter three clearly states that, just as the children of Israel failed to receive the inheritance in the promised land, we can fail to receive our inheritance in Christ by unbelief. We are made partakers in Christ, fully receiving our share, our inheritance in His kingdom, IF we hold fast our confidence stedfast unto the end. Are we going to continue to ignore these passages, just because we don't like the message?
Hebrews chapter four continues this and reinforces this message of conditional inheritance.
On the surface it seems contradictory. He that is entered into his rest hath ceased from his own works. Then, isn't salvation by grace alone?. No, because verse 11 exhorts us to "labor therefore, to enter into that rest". The rest spoken of is a future rest in God's Kingdom, not peace of mind. And again, it asserts that it is possible, by failing to continue to labor in Christ, fall after the same example fo unbelief. So there it is, plain and simple. Christianity is not a free ride to eternal life on the back of the Messiah. It's an opportunity to start over with the gift of the righteousness of God, the gift of holy spirit, and access to the throne of God by faith of Jesus Christ. It's a chance to do that which we were utterly unable to do as natural men. To serve God in Christ's stead, in righteousness and holiness.
We have oftne rebutted the idea of losing salvation by arguing that it doesn't make sense to teach that you can lose something by your works that you didn't earn my works. The greater truth is, salvation is God's graciously giving us an ability that we didn't have before and calling us to use that ability to live in a manner that we were uncapable of living before.
We can't live a lifetime of faitfhulness and godliness by our own works. That's why God gave us His own righteousness, holy spirit, his love, his very nature, and called us to use it accordingly. That's what Ephesians 2:10 really means.
That's enough food for thought for now.
Peace
JerryB
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