i think its like ive been saying all these years Oak...
people develop a variety of capacities
and these capacities develop in stages
religious text is NOT at a stage, per se
though it was written by someone who was
...but people are at stages
as are groups of people
there are many stages of moral development
stages of cognitive development
stages of ego development
stages of faith development
etc...
so not only are people at stages of development
we are at MULTIPLE stages of development at once
and our worldview is a culmination of multiple capacities in the process of developing
and regardless as to whether one uses language of christianity, islam, atheism, psychology, or pro-sports
...all these languages can and are used by people at all stages of development
an adult who is as morally developed as a 2-year old, for example,
can use the same words as someone who is as developed as an 8-year old
and the same words as someone who is as developed as a 13-year old
and the same words as someone who is as developed as a 20-year old
and beyond...
and the differences between stages of development are NOT minor, btw
which makes it somewhat easier to notice them
and "God" is just a word
...a purely selfish "God" worshipper is going to think and act differently than a "God" worshipper who values their church over individuals (or other churches)
...a purely selfish "atheist" is going to think and act very differently than an "atheist" who values all of humanity
...a purely selfish "muslim" is going to think and act very differently than a "muslim" who values all life on earth
but if one rejects that such stages of development exist...which many do...
...none of that will make any sense
and it may be impossible to understand the difference between an opportunistic christian cult-leader...a crusading denominational christian ...a rational christian...a christian advocate for social justice...a christian monk who actually dies for the sake of millions
I've sorta given up looking for reason where there is none. Religions for the most part seem to appeal to a very childish, immature part of our brains. I don't know of any religion that really makes sense beyond just a cursory glance.
So it doesn't surprise me at all that there's lotsa folks who engage in cognitive dissonance when it comes to the exercise of their chosen "faith"...
I understand the atheist point of view and I understand the true blue flaming evangelist point of view, even though I'm not either. If you're an atheist, why pay attention to something said by a fictional character? If you're a true believer who believes that God created the universe and is a loving father, it only makes sense to follow the dictates in the book that you believe came from him.
But what about the people who say that they believe in God, the biblical god, yet go out of their way to break all his rules? What's going on in their heads?
I know a fair number of people who would be quite insulted, even shocked, if anyone called them an atheist, or even a non-Christian, but live their lives as if there is no God or gods, and even take a perverse pride in going against the prevailing standard for godliness; even some people who joke about how they're going to hell, which they say will be more interesting than heaven.
I don't get it.
I don't either..
but maybe I do..
one character looked at me.. said *we* aren't all so smart ya know.."
i'll at least say this...ignoring/rejecting/avoiding/devaluing the types of stages of development ive mentioned is a sure way to continue not getting "it."
and not only not getting the scenario Oak described...but not getting the crucial differences at (or near) the root of all conflicts and misunderstandings in life.
and an odd thing is...while there is a lot of great new info on stages of development...there is also a lot of OLD info...as well as VERY OLD info.
and for some odd reason...our society has never been more out-of-touch with stages of development than we are now (in spite of all the info)
i cant help but notice the connection between this profound loss ... and our current wave of childlike adults in charge...as Oak described...co-opting anything and everything...and not just the world's ancient scriptures.
because if adults do not include some practical sense of stages of development in our worldview and processes...we will not help our children move through them.
and if there are at least 4 critical stages of change before we are even 20 years old...and we typically miss ALL of them...it is no wonder elders worth being called "wise" are RARER than ever...and aging and death are considered optional (or a curse) in our society...and "the terrible twos" have generations ago left the nursery and entered the executive board rooms.
of course...if we are unable or unwilling to examine our own self in terms of stages...it will be much harder to include stages in our search for answers
and of course...even notions of stages can get co-opted (like everything else) by people at any stage
... one character looked at me.. said *we* aren't all so smart ya know.."
Yeah well, we all aren't all so dumb either. ;)
And this is from someone (namely me) who no longer abides by the "humans are depraved and sinful who can do no righteousness, no, not one" copout/insanity.
stage development is something that typically is not on our radar until the second half of life anyway
...once we have enough stages to reflect on
and all the world's ancient religions have had highly developed people in them
...and not just post-mythological...but even post-rational people
and so in spite of the tyrants and crusaders that the world's religions are so infamous for
there were also those who had a keen understanding of the natural stages of development
and so embedded in the cultural story and processes and wisdom were methods for assisting development
and they understood the harm caused from societies whose elders and leaders are unable to examine their own lives
but there is no guarantee a society generates such "elders"
and if at some point someone stops providing "rites of passage" that assist in overall development
it does not take long before such wisdom simply dies off
and then those "uninitiated boys" who grow to be the oldest (and in charge) are as Oak described...not only able to justify anything in order to serve their self...but able to find joy and take pride in causing harm ... regardless of the contradictions and hypocricy
neither culture nor objectivity is valued...because they were never invited to develop the capacity in the first place
...and as decade after decade passed by in this state...it becomes less and less likely they will
I understand the atheist point of view and I understand the true blue flaming evangelist point of view, even though I'm not either. If you're an atheist, why pay attention to something said by a fictional character? If you're a true believer who believes that God created the universe and is a loving father, it only makes sense to follow the dictates in the book that you believe came from him.
But what about the people who say that they believe in God, the biblical god, yet go out of their way to break all his rules? What's going on in their heads?
I know a fair number of people who would be quite insulted, even shocked, if anyone called them an atheist, or even a non-Christian, but live their lives as if there is no God or gods, and even take a perverse pride in going against the prevailing standard for godliness; even some people who joke about how they're going to hell, which they say will be more interesting than heaven.
I don't get it.
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. James 2:19
strong and immediate rejection of stages is a typical response of a particular stage
and the number of people at this particular stage has been growing rapidly for a few generations now
which is why i think it is perhaps more important than ever that stages are addressed and understood
...in spite of the reactions
...so we can keep growing and keep from going backwards
I have a brother who is mentally ill. His twenties were crazy, but around his thirtieth birthday he was diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic, bipolar and ocd. The bipolar has somewhat evened out with age, but even with medication he can't live a normal life, hold down a job etc. As care takers, I must say the ocd in his case, actually makes things easier, because he follows a strick schedule--excercise, a bath, breakfast etc.
Through the years he has been on and off meds, he has alot of auditory hallucinations, mostly gun fire and bombs. Sometimes a little girl talks to him, about a railroad track near a small town in Montana. Sometimes it is something scary, and sometimes it is a treasure, or Lucky his dog( lost in 1979) down there by the railroad. He has lived 7 hours away from this town for the past 30 years but still hallucinates about it. He did get there once on a bus, but my dad drove down there and brought him home.
Anyway, my point. I have never once seen him act out like a two year old, throw a tantrum, get raving angry or violent. Despite all the crazy stuff, he still has the good manners he was raised with, he took care of my mom and dad's house and yard when they were elderly, mows my sister's huge yard. If you visit him in his little apartment( my sister converted her garage) He'll make a fresh pot of cofffee. He's an adult--mentally ill--but an adult.
His psych says that despite the serious nature of his illness--he is one of the sickest patients this doctor has ever treated-- my brother's quality of life is better than most with similar illness.
I think he internalized values he was raised with by our strict but loving catholic parents, reinforced in the catholic school system, by our relatives and friend's families. He never learned to be a selfish jerk, that was never modeled or seen as acceptable. So despite the mental illness, he is still basically a good man.
I run across sane people that could learn a thing or two from him, individuals who see people as tools for their use. Some of them even spout alot of religious words, and the words mean nothing in their hearts. They are just looking for the con that will work on you.
To a certain extent, I think that it's cultural conditioning and some mental laziness. For most people the existence of a being called "God" is a given, it's the "flow" that most of us go with, deciding to be an atheist, or a polytheist, or to have any non-standard belief system takes going against the flow; for that matter being a dyed-in-the-wool, fire-in-your-eyes, committed Christian takes going against the flow as well, albeit paddling to a different shore.
For a person whose every thought and act goes against what this supposed God stands for, its usually not that they sit down and plan on being "ungodly", they're going with the cultural flow of acting irresponsibly; to put some thought into their actions, to activate a few brain cells and think "I act contrary to what everyone says is God's will because there isn't a God" is more work, more rowing against the current that our hypothetical person is up to.
To a certain extent, I think that it's cultural conditioning and some mental laziness. For most people the existence of a being called "God" is a given, it's the "flow" that most of us go with, deciding to be an atheist, or a polytheist, or to have any non-standard belief system takes going against the flow; for that matter being a dyed-in-the-wool, fire-in-your-eyes, committed Christian takes going against the flow as well, albeit paddling to a different shore.
For a person whose every thought and act goes against what this supposed God stands for, its usually not that they sit down and plan on being "ungodly", they're going with the cultural flow of acting irresponsibly; to put some thought into their actions, to activate a few brain cells and think "I act contrary to what everyone says is God's will because there isn't a God" is more work, more rowing against the current that our hypothetical person is up to.
That is a pretty astute observation. . . . . a cultural influence in both respects. . . there is a God. . . . culturally. . . . and they behave according to the dictates of cultural influence. . . . so then the question becomes. . . . are they really believers. . . or just influenced from what comes at them without the benefit of true reflection?
I have been listening to some interesting debates lately. . . . between atheist and Christian. . . . . really compelling and thought provoking dialogue. . . . both sides articulate in presenting their well thought out positions. . . . both believing them for reasons. . . .
Not quite the same thing as a cultural influence on a concept of "faith". :) However, I do think the atheist position. . . . unreasoned out can be a cultural influence of sorts. . . . the "new" atheist movement has its mouth pieces in people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. . . . who have already done the leg work of reflection and are prolific authors. Seems that position can be "adopted" without the benefit of too much thought as well. That in no way means any here have done that. . . . . just an observation.
I understand the atheist point of view and I understand the true blue flaming evangelist point of view, even though I'm not either. If you're an atheist, why pay attention to something said by a fictional character? If you're a true believer who believes that God created the universe and is a loving father, it only makes sense to follow the dictates in the book that you believe came from him.
But what about the people who say that they believe in God, the biblical god, yet go out of their way to break all his rules? What's going on in their heads?
I know a fair number of people who would be quite insulted, even shocked, if anyone called them an atheist, or even a non-Christian, but live their lives as if there is no God or gods, and even take a perverse pride in going against the prevailing standard for godliness; even some people who joke about how they're going to hell, which they say will be more interesting than heaven.
I don't get it.
i think its like ive been saying all these years Oak...
people develop a variety of capacities
and these capacities develop in stages
religious text is NOT at a stage, per se
though it was written by someone who was
...but people are at stages
as are groups of people
there are many stages of moral development
stages of cognitive development
stages of ego development
stages of faith development
etc...
so not only are people at stages of development
we are at MULTIPLE stages of development at once
and our worldview is a culmination of multiple capacities in the process of developing
and regardless as to whether one uses language of christianity, islam, atheism, psychology, or pro-sports
...all these languages can and are used by people at all stages of development
an adult who is as morally developed as a 2-year old, for example,
can use the same words as someone who is as developed as an 8-year old
and the same words as someone who is as developed as a 13-year old
and the same words as someone who is as developed as a 20-year old
and beyond...
and the differences between stages of development are NOT minor, btw
which makes it somewhat easier to notice them
and "God" is just a word
...a purely selfish "God" worshipper is going to think and act differently than a "God" worshipper who values their church over individuals (or other churches)
...a purely selfish "atheist" is going to think and act very differently than an "atheist" who values all of humanity
...a purely selfish "muslim" is going to think and act very differently than a "muslim" who values all life on earth
but if one rejects that such stages of development exist...which many do...
...none of that will make any sense
and it may be impossible to understand the difference between an opportunistic christian cult-leader...a crusading denominational christian ...a rational christian...a christian advocate for social justice...a christian monk who actually dies for the sake of millions
I've sorta given up looking for reason where there is none. Religions for the most part seem to appeal to a very childish, immature part of our brains. I don't know of any religion that really makes sense beyond just a cursory glance.
So it doesn't surprise me at all that there's lotsa folks who engage in cognitive dissonance when it comes to the exercise of their chosen "faith"...
To a certain extent, I think that it's cultural conditioning and some mental laziness. For most people the existence of a being called "God" is a given, it's the "flow" that most of us go with, deciding to be an atheist, or a polytheist, or to have any non-standard belief system takes going against the flow; for that matter being a dyed-in-the-wool, fire-in-your-eyes, committed Christian takes going against the flow as well, albeit paddling to a different shore.
For a person whose every thought and act goes against what this supposed God stands for, its usually not that they sit down and plan on being "ungodly", they're going with the cultural flow of acting irresponsibly; to put some thought into their actions, to activate a few brain cells and think "I act contrary to what everyone says is God's will because there isn't a God" is more work, more rowing against the current that our hypothetical person is up to.
I have a big problem with threads like this. I enjoy reading every thought provoking post – and as my mind runs off in so many directions, I get frustrated trying to write something that makes sense. So anyway, with apologies for the rambling thoughts here's my 2 cents and I'm feeling kinda generous today – so I may up it to 3.
I do think cultural conditioning plays a big part in this. And I like the way George put it – folks engaging in cognitive dissonance when exercising their chosen faith. At this stage in life, I've come to the conclusion I've made my own religion – there's some cognitive dissonance going on in my head for sure – but also I am very aware of making a conscious decision on certain ethical standards articulated, as far as me assigning some level of importance, priority or some qualifying distinction in my scale of values. Maybe you'd call it my processed faith.
Reflecting on my journey of faith so far – I see how I've gone from one extreme to the other in terms of my take on moral issues.
My inherited faith is Catholicism – growing up in an Italian family in New York – no surprise there. Catholicism definitely puts the fear of God in your soul – and you walk around feeling guilty about everything you think or do. There was some relief though – I'd hold off on confessing my worst sins to our parish priest for fear of immediate divine retribution; I'd wait till our family visited my cousin's in another parish: "Hey mom, I'm gonna go with Jimmy to confession tonight.. . uhm, just cause he wants some company."
As a little boy I have a distinct memory of watching my best friend do cruel things to a turtle – finally killing it as a final act of "mercy" – and the horror, sorrow and worry churning in my little brain thinking "oh no, he's gonna go to hell for this!"
Next up, my chosen faith – getting into TWI. Amazing how malleable there code of ethics is – if you even want to call it that. Sin was softened to "broken fellowship". In PFAL a warm & fuzzy moral code is proffered "as long as you love God & neighbor you can do as you fool well please", however the love God & neighbor thing was never clearly defined in TWI – relative ethics seemed to be the standard operating procedure. Couple that with vp's Gnostic perspective – that splits reality into two totally separate realms: spirit and flesh – and never the twain shall meet, so what is done in the flesh bears no consequences to the spirit. These things were definitely factors in setting up a platform for cognitive dissonance to happen in my mindset. A wonderful sedative to the conscience actually.
With a mindset like that – it's little wonder I could be at a Family Corps pajama party with vp showing his favorite porn video and getting lewd with a sixteen year old girl in front of everybody – and no moral alarms went off in my head. vp was viewed as so spiritually mature – that this stuff was not sin to him.
Needless to say, TWI did set the standard for hypocrisy – and I meant this point to address the worst-case scenario of Oakspear's first post. In TWI hypocrisy is a learned skill – typically starts out as learning to put on a twig-face toward others yet being an absolute a$hole behind closed doors.
Present day – at this stage of development, my current "processed" faith is perhaps a product of reexamining my inherited faith and streamlining the whole gamut of mortal and venial sins to a simpler view of the 10 commandments and the golden rule. I think many cultures develop codes & standards along similar lines to support & protect values common to the people – life, property, honesty, marriage, etc.
Maybe I have more of a live & let live attitude now – a mellowing in age. I watched "Milk" last night – really enjoyed the movie and liked the focus on the political machinery on both sides of the issue. Now seeing two guys kissing just doesn't turn me on – but I was really turned off by the efforts of religious zealots to demonize and persecute homosexuals.
Maybe I have more of a live & let live attitude now – a mellowing in age. I watched "Milk" last night – really enjoyed the movie and liked the focus on the political machinery on both sides of the issue. Now seeing two guys kissing just doesn't turn me on – but I was really turned off by the efforts of religious zealots to demonize and persecute homosexuals.
In the days of Lot the guys in Sodom were trying to get their hands on the two men(angels, guests). . . . for not so nice reasons. . . .they wanted them to come out and play. . . so to speak.
Today most gays just want to marry, settle down, be monogamous, adopt, love, and provide for unwanted babies from third world countries. . . . lead moral lives. . . pay their bills. . . be in the PTA.
Not the same thing. . . . . Look at what some are trying to persecute. No wonder people scratch their heads. Crazy.
It seems to me there is a better way to love people and reach them with the gospel. All have sinned and fallen short.
My son always tells me. . . . homosexuals already know what Christians think of them. . . . we don't have to keep telling them. They have the message loud and clear. . . it is just the wrong message.
I do think cultural conditioning plays a big part in this. And I like the way George put it – folks engaging in cognitive dissonance when exercising their chosen faith. At this stage in life, I've come to the conclusion I've made my own religion – there's some cognitive dissonance going on in my head for sure – but also I am very aware of making a conscious decision on certain ethical standards articulated, as far as me assigning some level of importance, priority or some qualifying distinction in my scale of values. Maybe you'd call it my processed faith.
I think you've articulated well what many people do without thinking as deeply as you do about it. I remember growing up in a very Catholic corner of southeast Queens and seeing the wide variety of Catholicisms practiced. Most of the people I knew sort of took the basics of Catholic doctrine as their starting point and built their own personal faith based on what worked for them. Then there was the "sub-cultural" influences: you could see a real difference between the Catholicism of the Italians and the Irish the 2 major ethnic groups in our neighborhood). I have memories of my parents, as religious as they come, pooh-poohing certain doctrines and practices that they felt didn't fit with the way they saw the world.
Present day – at this stage of development, my current "processed" faith is perhaps a product of reexamining my inherited faith and streamlining the whole gamut of mortal and venial sins to a simpler view of the 10 commandments and the golden rule. I think many cultures develop codes & standards along similar lines to support & protect values common to the people – life, property, honesty, marriage, etc.
I like the term "processed faith" that you are using. When you come right down to it, the faith that is deep inside you, whether it be straight from "the book", a set of axioms based on experience and observation and thought, or anywhere in between, is the one that is real to you and works for you.
To a great extent your post, T-Bone, goes the farthest toward answering my initial question, people who claim to be Christians, yet are far off the "norm", are processing their faith just as everybody else is, they just aren't putting as much analysis into as some of us ex-cultists!
Nonetheless, it still makes me chuckle when folks who are indistinguishable from non-Christians in practice are horrified that someone might claim the label of Buddhist, Pagan or even atheist!
To a great extent your post, T-Bone, goes the farthest toward answering my initial question, people who claim to be Christians, yet are far off the "norm", are processing their faith just as everybody else is, they just aren't putting as much analysis into as some of us ex-cultists!
Nonetheless, it still makes me chuckle when folks who are indistinguishable from non-Christians in practice are horrified that someone might claim the label of Buddhist, Pagan or even atheist!
Jude 1:3 tells us to earnestly contend for the faith which was entrusted to the saints. . . .I think that might be relevant when speaking of those afar off from the "norm". . . .if that norm is the faith once delivered. . . . . this is where contending. . . contention. .debate. . . and argument are actually important. . . . and coming out of a group who held up one man's hodge podge version of that faith as gospel. . . . it should be all the more evident in imperative.
Jude is a book about diligence against those so afar off from the norm. . . . and also encouragement to actively win back those who are deceived. If you are in the land of Christendom. . . . this does not have the same significance as when you dwell in the land of cults. . . ex-cultists. . . and those who are still struggling. . . . whole new ballgame IMO.
That is why I think it is important to listen to what people are saying and discuss these issues. We pretty much have insurmountable obstacles as ex-cultists. . . . we as Christians really do need God's help and guidance and the sound theology of trusted servants. . . fellowship with others. God is certainly able.
On the plus side :) . . . . great deliverance offers such great depth and insight into God's heart.
Nonetheless, it still makes me chuckle when folks who are indistinguishable from non-Christians in practice are horrified that someone might claim the label of Buddhist, Pagan or even atheist!
My guess is that religion has nothing to do with it. More to do with wanting to be part of a group and needed to define who's "in" and who's "out".
My guess is that religion has nothing to do with it. More to do with wanting to be part of a group and needed to define who's "in" and who's "out".
don't people make that determination themselves by what they decide to believe? If you don't believe in God. . . . it is not very likely you will be a follower of Christ who claimed to be His Son.
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sirguessalot
i think its like ive been saying all these years Oak...
people develop a variety of capacities
and these capacities develop in stages
religious text is NOT at a stage, per se
though it was written by someone who was
...but people are at stages
as are groups of people
there are many stages of moral development
stages of cognitive development
stages of ego development
stages of faith development
etc...
so not only are people at stages of development
we are at MULTIPLE stages of development at once
and our worldview is a culmination of multiple capacities in the process of developing
and regardless as to whether one uses language of christianity, islam, atheism, psychology, or pro-sports
...all these languages can and are used by people at all stages of development
an adult who is as morally developed as a 2-year old, for example,
can use the same words as someone who is as developed as an 8-year old
and the same words as someone who is as developed as a 13-year old
and the same words as someone who is as developed as a 20-year old
and beyond...
and the differences between stages of development are NOT minor, btw
which makes it somewhat easier to notice them
and "God" is just a word
...a purely selfish "God" worshipper is going to think and act differently than a "God" worshipper who values their church over individuals (or other churches)
...a purely selfish "atheist" is going to think and act very differently than an "atheist" who values all of humanity
...a purely selfish "muslim" is going to think and act very differently than a "muslim" who values all life on earth
but if one rejects that such stages of development exist...which many do...
...none of that will make any sense
and it may be impossible to understand the difference between an opportunistic christian cult-leader...a crusading denominational christian ...a rational christian...a christian advocate for social justice...a christian monk who actually dies for the sake of millions
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sirguessalot
my point in a nutshell...
"tyranny" is a result of "arrested development"
notice the great "objectification" of the people of the world
and not all of it is done in the name of a religion
the cult of money is alive and well as ever
with plenty of tyrannical atheists competing for position of pope
...teach your children well
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George Aar
I've sorta given up looking for reason where there is none. Religions for the most part seem to appeal to a very childish, immature part of our brains. I don't know of any religion that really makes sense beyond just a cursory glance.
So it doesn't surprise me at all that there's lotsa folks who engage in cognitive dissonance when it comes to the exercise of their chosen "faith"...
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waysider
"There's a lot of people talkin' 'bout gettin' in the Glory Land way.
Walkin' straight and narrow 'cause they're tryin' to get to Heaven some day.
But I've been saved by the love of the people who are livin' right here.
There's a whole lot of Heaven, shinin' in this river of tears."
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waysider
There's a whole lot of Heaven shinin' in this river of tears.
If you'll pull back the curtain, those diamonds appear.
You can have your streets of gold is you want 'em.
And your mansions so dear.
I'll take a whole lot of Heaven shinin' in this river of tears.
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Ham
I don't either..
but maybe I do..
one character looked at me.. said *we* aren't all so smart ya know.."
no kidding.. for a moment he knew what I knew..
maybe that was the whole point..
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Ham
I have one professor, who just BREATHES real analysis..
I'll omit my expletives here..
but this character lives in it..
I still need a wetsuit, a snorkel and a floaty thingy..
"now.. this is EASY.."
words fail me here..
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sirguessalot
i'll at least say this...ignoring/rejecting/avoiding/devaluing the types of stages of development ive mentioned is a sure way to continue not getting "it."
and not only not getting the scenario Oak described...but not getting the crucial differences at (or near) the root of all conflicts and misunderstandings in life.
and an odd thing is...while there is a lot of great new info on stages of development...there is also a lot of OLD info...as well as VERY OLD info.
and for some odd reason...our society has never been more out-of-touch with stages of development than we are now (in spite of all the info)
i cant help but notice the connection between this profound loss ... and our current wave of childlike adults in charge...as Oak described...co-opting anything and everything...and not just the world's ancient scriptures.
because if adults do not include some practical sense of stages of development in our worldview and processes...we will not help our children move through them.
and if there are at least 4 critical stages of change before we are even 20 years old...and we typically miss ALL of them...it is no wonder elders worth being called "wise" are RARER than ever...and aging and death are considered optional (or a curse) in our society...and "the terrible twos" have generations ago left the nursery and entered the executive board rooms.
of course...if we are unable or unwilling to examine our own self in terms of stages...it will be much harder to include stages in our search for answers
and of course...even notions of stages can get co-opted (like everything else) by people at any stage
welcome to a brave new world
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sirguessalot
to add...
strong and immediate rejection of stages is a typical response of a particular stage
and the number of people at this particular stage has been growing rapidly for a few generations now
which is why i think it is perhaps more important than ever that stages are addressed and understood
...in spite of the reactions
...so we can keep growing and keep from going backwards
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GarthP2000
Yeah well, we all aren't all so dumb either. ;)
And this is from someone (namely me) who no longer abides by the "humans are depraved and sinful who can do no righteousness, no, not one" copout/insanity.
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sirguessalot
more...
stage development is something that typically is not on our radar until the second half of life anyway
...once we have enough stages to reflect on
and all the world's ancient religions have had highly developed people in them
...and not just post-mythological...but even post-rational people
and so in spite of the tyrants and crusaders that the world's religions are so infamous for
there were also those who had a keen understanding of the natural stages of development
and so embedded in the cultural story and processes and wisdom were methods for assisting development
and they understood the harm caused from societies whose elders and leaders are unable to examine their own lives
but there is no guarantee a society generates such "elders"
and if at some point someone stops providing "rites of passage" that assist in overall development
it does not take long before such wisdom simply dies off
and then those "uninitiated boys" who grow to be the oldest (and in charge) are as Oak described...not only able to justify anything in order to serve their self...but able to find joy and take pride in causing harm ... regardless of the contradictions and hypocricy
neither culture nor objectivity is valued...because they were never invited to develop the capacity in the first place
...and as decade after decade passed by in this state...it becomes less and less likely they will
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sirguessalot
to clarify...
of course i left a lot out...life is messy and complicated
but i want to add that in spite of an almost utter lack of threshholds for development in our systems
the natural drive and impulse to develop is older and stronger than society
and so even though our systems may not provide an adequate framework for development
im sure most anyone reading can notice one or more stages of change in our own lives
but its more like a self-initiating wilderness experience
...accidents and coincidences...luck and fortune...grace and mercy
much like the difference between being born in a hospital at the hands of a skilled midwife
...and being born in the woods without help from anyone but a terrified mother
so we may have found our own way to grow and change our worldview...or our morality...or our self-sense
...but we still may not know how this growth fits in the big picture of overall growth...it just happens
...
also...society can also reinforce non-development...like much of our society does
like how self-centered people do not respect non-self-centered people
and tend to attract other self-centered people
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geisha779
You believe that there is one God. Good! Even the demons believe that--and shudder. James 2:19
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cman
Yeah, why do the demons shudder?
for therein lies the unknown results of exposure
fearing to face one god in the demons also
to witness this in ourselves would be enlightening
and progression...
one god in all and through all
all meaning all, perhaps we have forgotten
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Bramble
I have a brother who is mentally ill. His twenties were crazy, but around his thirtieth birthday he was diagnosed as paranoid schizophrenic, bipolar and ocd. The bipolar has somewhat evened out with age, but even with medication he can't live a normal life, hold down a job etc. As care takers, I must say the ocd in his case, actually makes things easier, because he follows a strick schedule--excercise, a bath, breakfast etc.
Through the years he has been on and off meds, he has alot of auditory hallucinations, mostly gun fire and bombs. Sometimes a little girl talks to him, about a railroad track near a small town in Montana. Sometimes it is something scary, and sometimes it is a treasure, or Lucky his dog( lost in 1979) down there by the railroad. He has lived 7 hours away from this town for the past 30 years but still hallucinates about it. He did get there once on a bus, but my dad drove down there and brought him home.
Anyway, my point. I have never once seen him act out like a two year old, throw a tantrum, get raving angry or violent. Despite all the crazy stuff, he still has the good manners he was raised with, he took care of my mom and dad's house and yard when they were elderly, mows my sister's huge yard. If you visit him in his little apartment( my sister converted her garage) He'll make a fresh pot of cofffee. He's an adult--mentally ill--but an adult.
His psych says that despite the serious nature of his illness--he is one of the sickest patients this doctor has ever treated-- my brother's quality of life is better than most with similar illness.
I think he internalized values he was raised with by our strict but loving catholic parents, reinforced in the catholic school system, by our relatives and friend's families. He never learned to be a selfish jerk, that was never modeled or seen as acceptable. So despite the mental illness, he is still basically a good man.
I run across sane people that could learn a thing or two from him, individuals who see people as tools for their use. Some of them even spout alot of religious words, and the words mean nothing in their hearts. They are just looking for the con that will work on you.
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Oakspear
To a certain extent, I think that it's cultural conditioning and some mental laziness. For most people the existence of a being called "God" is a given, it's the "flow" that most of us go with, deciding to be an atheist, or a polytheist, or to have any non-standard belief system takes going against the flow; for that matter being a dyed-in-the-wool, fire-in-your-eyes, committed Christian takes going against the flow as well, albeit paddling to a different shore.
For a person whose every thought and act goes against what this supposed God stands for, its usually not that they sit down and plan on being "ungodly", they're going with the cultural flow of acting irresponsibly; to put some thought into their actions, to activate a few brain cells and think "I act contrary to what everyone says is God's will because there isn't a God" is more work, more rowing against the current that our hypothetical person is up to.
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cman
what this supposed God stands for
differs among different people
and their interpretation of god
if that interpretation doesn't change any over time
then i don't think there is a god
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geisha779
That is a pretty astute observation. . . . . a cultural influence in both respects. . . there is a God. . . . culturally. . . . and they behave according to the dictates of cultural influence. . . . so then the question becomes. . . . are they really believers. . . or just influenced from what comes at them without the benefit of true reflection?
I have been listening to some interesting debates lately. . . . between atheist and Christian. . . . . really compelling and thought provoking dialogue. . . . both sides articulate in presenting their well thought out positions. . . . both believing them for reasons. . . .
Not quite the same thing as a cultural influence on a concept of "faith". :) However, I do think the atheist position. . . . unreasoned out can be a cultural influence of sorts. . . . the "new" atheist movement has its mouth pieces in people like Richard Dawkins and Christopher Hitchens. . . . who have already done the leg work of reflection and are prolific authors. Seems that position can be "adopted" without the benefit of too much thought as well. That in no way means any here have done that. . . . . just an observation.
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T-Bone
I have a big problem with threads like this. I enjoy reading every thought provoking post – and as my mind runs off in so many directions, I get frustrated trying to write something that makes sense. So anyway, with apologies for the rambling thoughts here's my 2 cents and I'm feeling kinda generous today – so I may up it to 3.
I do think cultural conditioning plays a big part in this. And I like the way George put it – folks engaging in cognitive dissonance when exercising their chosen faith. At this stage in life, I've come to the conclusion I've made my own religion – there's some cognitive dissonance going on in my head for sure – but also I am very aware of making a conscious decision on certain ethical standards articulated, as far as me assigning some level of importance, priority or some qualifying distinction in my scale of values. Maybe you'd call it my processed faith.
Reflecting on my journey of faith so far – I see how I've gone from one extreme to the other in terms of my take on moral issues.
My inherited faith is Catholicism – growing up in an Italian family in New York – no surprise there. Catholicism definitely puts the fear of God in your soul – and you walk around feeling guilty about everything you think or do. There was some relief though – I'd hold off on confessing my worst sins to our parish priest for fear of immediate divine retribution; I'd wait till our family visited my cousin's in another parish: "Hey mom, I'm gonna go with Jimmy to confession tonight.. . uhm, just cause he wants some company."
As a little boy I have a distinct memory of watching my best friend do cruel things to a turtle – finally killing it as a final act of "mercy" – and the horror, sorrow and worry churning in my little brain thinking "oh no, he's gonna go to hell for this!"
Next up, my chosen faith – getting into TWI. Amazing how malleable there code of ethics is – if you even want to call it that. Sin was softened to "broken fellowship". In PFAL a warm & fuzzy moral code is proffered "as long as you love God & neighbor you can do as you fool well please", however the love God & neighbor thing was never clearly defined in TWI – relative ethics seemed to be the standard operating procedure. Couple that with vp's Gnostic perspective – that splits reality into two totally separate realms: spirit and flesh – and never the twain shall meet, so what is done in the flesh bears no consequences to the spirit. These things were definitely factors in setting up a platform for cognitive dissonance to happen in my mindset. A wonderful sedative to the conscience actually.
With a mindset like that – it's little wonder I could be at a Family Corps pajama party with vp showing his favorite porn video and getting lewd with a sixteen year old girl in front of everybody – and no moral alarms went off in my head. vp was viewed as so spiritually mature – that this stuff was not sin to him.
Needless to say, TWI did set the standard for hypocrisy – and I meant this point to address the worst-case scenario of Oakspear's first post. In TWI hypocrisy is a learned skill – typically starts out as learning to put on a twig-face toward others yet being an absolute a$hole behind closed doors.
Present day – at this stage of development, my current "processed" faith is perhaps a product of reexamining my inherited faith and streamlining the whole gamut of mortal and venial sins to a simpler view of the 10 commandments and the golden rule. I think many cultures develop codes & standards along similar lines to support & protect values common to the people – life, property, honesty, marriage, etc.
Maybe I have more of a live & let live attitude now – a mellowing in age. I watched "Milk" last night – really enjoyed the movie and liked the focus on the political machinery on both sides of the issue. Now seeing two guys kissing just doesn't turn me on – but I was really turned off by the efforts of religious zealots to demonize and persecute homosexuals.
[edited to obtain an NC-17 rating
]
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geisha779
In the days of Lot the guys in Sodom were trying to get their hands on the two men(angels, guests). . . . for not so nice reasons. . . .they wanted them to come out and play. . . so to speak.
Today most gays just want to marry, settle down, be monogamous, adopt, love, and provide for unwanted babies from third world countries. . . . lead moral lives. . . pay their bills. . . be in the PTA.
Not the same thing. . . . . Look at what some are trying to persecute. No wonder people scratch their heads. Crazy.
It seems to me there is a better way to love people and reach them with the gospel. All have sinned and fallen short.
My son always tells me. . . . homosexuals already know what Christians think of them. . . . we don't have to keep telling them. They have the message loud and clear. . . it is just the wrong message.
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Oakspear
To a great extent your post, T-Bone, goes the farthest toward answering my initial question, people who claim to be Christians, yet are far off the "norm", are processing their faith just as everybody else is, they just aren't putting as much analysis into as some of us ex-cultists!
Nonetheless, it still makes me chuckle when folks who are indistinguishable from non-Christians in practice are horrified that someone might claim the label of Buddhist, Pagan or even atheist!
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geisha779
Jude 1:3 tells us to earnestly contend for the faith which was entrusted to the saints. . . .I think that might be relevant when speaking of those afar off from the "norm". . . .if that norm is the faith once delivered. . . . . this is where contending. . . contention. .debate. . . and argument are actually important. . . . and coming out of a group who held up one man's hodge podge version of that faith as gospel. . . . it should be all the more evident in imperative.
Jude is a book about diligence against those so afar off from the norm. . . . and also encouragement to actively win back those who are deceived. If you are in the land of Christendom. . . . this does not have the same significance as when you dwell in the land of cults. . . ex-cultists. . . and those who are still struggling. . . . whole new ballgame IMO.
That is why I think it is important to listen to what people are saying and discuss these issues. We pretty much have insurmountable obstacles as ex-cultists. . . . we as Christians really do need God's help and guidance and the sound theology of trusted servants. . . fellowship with others. God is certainly able.
On the plus side :) . . . . great deliverance offers such great depth and insight into God's heart.
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Bolshevik
My guess is that religion has nothing to do with it. More to do with wanting to be part of a group and needed to define who's "in" and who's "out".
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geisha779
don't people make that determination themselves by what they decide to believe? If you don't believe in God. . . . it is not very likely you will be a follower of Christ who claimed to be His Son.
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