What I remember Wierwille sharing was how in spite of Leonard's knowledge of God's word that the messiness of Leonard's classroom set up was so bad that it indicated to Wierwille that Leonard was too much of a mess to be allowed to have anything to do with Wierwille's ministry.
I think Wierwille and most of his trained children have been turning heads away from many good people for decades with similar well placed put downs.
Looking back on these things now it seems obvious that such effective put downs were a part of TWI's method of self promotion and put downs to obtain the preeminence in peoples' hearts and minds. Heck, I think even former leadership who turned away from the evils of TWI still have the "put down reflex."
A nice generic term......"power for abundant living" for one and all.
One step further....."biblical research" as defined by "what the word says." Then, later....vpw is the one who defines "the word." Then, later.......vpw indoctrinates his corps to define "the word."
Jumping hoops and more hoops.....all in the name of "biblical research" and an "absent Christ" and a corps who follow in lockstep. Yet, the corps poem said something about..."not ruling with heavy hand believer's
deeply springing powers."
What's in a name?
Just like today......on the 60th Anniversary of the People's Republic of China.
As most of us know here at GS......wierwille twice attended BG Leonard's class The Gifts of the Holy Spirit in 1953, in February and in June/July of that same year. This was no small commitment for an Ohio preacher who traveled to Calgary, Alberta Canada.....and on the second trip, with wife and son Don, two carloads of congregants. By October, wierwille taught this same material as his own......no syllabus, no class material.
As the years passed, wierwille added some from Stiles, Kenyon, Bullinger and "law of believing jargon" to distance himself from others and copyright his material.
What's in a name: Power for Abundant Living
Hey.......you want POWER?
And.......how about ABUNDANCE?
And.......add some LIVING for good measure?
C'mon folks......it's easy. Just pray, believe and presto......God will give you what you want!!!
You get "abundance" in this life..........and REWARDS FOR ALL ETERNITY as you stay faithful to twi. Now, if you don't understand all the "keys" at first.....get into the next class nearest you and perfect your believing. See you at the rock and see you at the top !!!
:B)
Considering the fact that vp plagiarized the material – AND - created an organization that's parasitic – thriving on sucking the time, energy & money from its followers, I think it should be called "Power for Abundant Mooching."
Reflecting on what was the real benefit of the class – I think it was almost like some kind of an insidiously twisted Ponzi scheme. What kind of return did I see for investing my time, energy & money into vp's marketing enterprise? Encouragement to take the class again and again – which generated a hope that some day I'll master PFAL and actually experience the more abundant life he talked about. Seems to me like that's what kept a lot of people going – a collective consciousness of gimme-da-abundance-mentality following vp's carrot-on-a-stick ministry.
I dunno.. this is kinda a side note to the discussion.. but considering leonard couldn't see through huckster vic.. let's just say I'm not exactly impressed with leonards operation of "discerning of spirits" or something..
I dunno.. this is kinda a side note to the discussion.. but considering leonard couldn't see through huckster vic.. let's just say I'm not exactly impressed with leonards operation of "discerning of spirits" or something..
maybe the product was flawed, to begin with..
Another side note to this discussion....
Before Leonard, before 1953.....wierwille was a small-time preacher in van wert, ohio.
From Leonard:
1) Wierwille stole the foundational material that catapulted his "ministry."
2) Wierwille copied the class-based system that Leonard utilized.
3) Wierwille tiered this system with additional classes of interest.
4) Wierwille kept the same 'Johnie-Jumpup, Maggie Muggins' characters as well.
5) Wierwille's collaterals used American Christian Press....Leonard had Canadian Christian Press.
6) Wierwille had found a pyramid scheme that propelled him to "The Teacher."
I dunno.. this is kinda a side note to the discussion.. but considering leonard couldn't see through huckster vic.. let's just say I'm not exactly impressed with leonards operation of "discerning of spirits" or something..
maybe the product was flawed, to begin with..
I'm inclined to go with the "flawed product" explanation.
I mean you have all this detailed stuff on discerning of spirits in the Advanced Class and yet nobody seemed to notice that Wierwille was a walking/talking, text book example of the very things he taught were devil possession. (ie: chronic alcoholism, sexual predator, psychological abuser, chronic liar, etc.)
Doesn't look too good for proving DOS is a valid concept.
Reflecting on what was the real benefit of the class – I think it was almost like some kind of an insidiously twisted Ponzi scheme. What kind of return did I see for investing my time, energy & money into vp's marketing enterprise? Encouragement to take the class again and again – which generated a hope that some day I'll master PFAL and actually experience the more abundant life he talked about. Seems to me like that's what kept a lot of people going – a collective consciousness of gimme-da-abundance-mentality following vp's carrot-on-a-stick ministry.
Ya gotta hand it to Wierwille...he's the slickest con man that ever took me. He made a ton of money, was adored by thousands and lived a hedonistic lifestyle that would make most people blush. He stole everything, originated nothing and strutted around like a king rooster...bedding down teenage girls and getting hammered on drambuie, he spoke with total arrogance and maliciousness. He spoke of love but his own insecurity propelled him into a life of narcissim and total disregard for others.
Wierwille was to Christianity what Jeffery Dahmer was to gourmet dining.
I dunno.. this is kinda a side note to the discussion.. but considering leonard couldn't see through huckster vic.. let's just say I'm not exactly impressed with leonards operation of "discerning of spirits" or something..
maybe the product was flawed, to begin with..
Ham,
I have to agree. You could put that sticker on everything they did. Promise a lot, deliver nothing. You pay for the class and you do the work.
My first region meeting, I met a very gay corps person. Nobody seemed to notice but me, the new guy. ??? Turns out he later came out. Didn't need the AC to see that one!
I dunno.. this is kinda a side note to the discussion.. but considering leonard couldn't see through huckster vic.. let's just say I'm not exactly impressed with leonards operation of "discerning of spirits" or something..
maybe the product was flawed, to begin with..
Ham.....you certainly have a point, but other facts add insight to this.
1) According to Mrs. W's book.....when vpw called Leonard about getting into his class, Leonard refused wierwille (on the phone) and told him no.
2) Leonard confronted wierwille at the door.....when vpw show up at the Calgary class.
3) Somehow wierwille talked his way into the class..........Leonard's mistake.
4) Wierwille was thrilled with the class.....and repeated it, with Mrs. & Don & others, in June.
5) Not until much later, did Leonard realize that wierwille was teaching his class. Wierwille's true colors started flying high (plagairism, stolen material, not crediting Leonard).....and Leonard started copyrighting his material.
6) The Way Ministry is a splinter group of B.G. Leonard's ministry.
Ya gotta hand it to Wierwille...he's the slickest con man that ever took me. He made a ton of money, was adored by thousands and lived a hedonistic lifestyle that would make most people blush. He stole everything, originated nothing and strutted around like a king rooster...bedding down teenage girls and getting hammered on drambuie, he spoke with total arrogance and maliciousness. He spoke of love but his own insecurity propelled him into a life of narcissim and total disregard for others.
Wierwille was to Christianity what Jeffery Dahmer was to gourmet dining.
reminds me of an "illustration" from Shakespeare..
"a scam by any other name smells the same.."
no wonder the vicster hated illustrations from Shakespeare, Chaucer..
What's in a name? A lot really, when it comes to building a facade. I believe two of vp's specialties were the art of camouflage & deception. He subtly introduced sexual immorality through a certain class and in casual settings featuring his favorite porn video – all in the name of Christian Family & Sex.
The shyster gets the title of "doctor" from a degree granting mill to lend legitimacy to his "ministry" – you know he wanted everyone to call him that cuz I heard enough protocol reminders in leaders meetings. I bet most folks thought even God called him "Dr. Wierwille." Of course he had other titles too – "our father in the Word".. . "the man of god for this day and time and hour".. .hmm how about "man of LoShonta" in homage to BG Leonard.
I'm inclined to go with the "flawed product" explanation.
I mean you have all this detailed stuff on discerning of spirits in the Advanced Class and yet nobody seemed to notice that Wierwille was a walking/talking, text book example of the very things he taught were devil possession. (ie: chronic alcoholism, sexual predator, psychological abuser, chronic liar, etc.)
Doesn't look too good for proving DOS is a valid concept.
And if I may digress for a moment, and eventually, if one gets painfully honest (IMNSHO), it doesn't look too good for Christianity to be a valid concept either. From where I am now, all the religious arguments about Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed or Krishna or Christian Science vs. Mormon vs. Judaism, etc. ad infinitum, just seem remarkably similar to Trekkies arguing over which Star Trek character could beat up which other character, or if Superman was stronger than the Fantastic Four. It's all so silly.
(Yes, I know, I'm gonna get mine one day, that's fer sure. And, boy, won't I regret it then, yada, yada,...)
So now we get to thump BG on the head, as well? :unsure:
I never got from Leonard that he openly plagiarized others while maintaining a life long habit of building his name and reputation on the backs of others' sweat, blood, and tears as Wierwille did. One poster pointed out the freakin obvious to me now how that even where it concerned wierwille's very own research dept. at hq. that every single work was published while giving no credit to the poor reasearch dept. that often did it's best under Wierwille's arbitrary and abusive thumb.
I don't ever remember Leonard building a ministry where virtually every leader fell under the sway of whoring themselves for a little name recognition either.
But I have enjoyed some of the doctrinal threads that openly and honestly have called B.G.'s doctrines into question. Isn't that what we were even taught (theoretically anyway) to do with Wierwille's doctrines even according to PFAL teaching!?
And if I may digress for a moment, and eventually, if one gets painfully honest (IMNSHO), it doesn't look too good for Christianity to be a valid concept either. From where I am now, all the religious arguments about Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed or Krishna or Christian Science vs. Mormon vs. Judaism, etc. ad infinitum, just seem remarkably similar to Trekkies arguing over which Star Trek character could beat up which other character, or if Superman was stronger than the Fantastic Four. It's all so silly.
(Yes, I know, I'm gonna get mine one day, that's fer sure. And, boy, won't I regret it then, yada, yada,...)
As a Christian this is where I go with this kind of valid observation from nonchristians George.....
According to scripture it is God's people who end up in the most trouble when unbelievers happen to be correct in pointing out the the believers sometimes suck.
Once I was part of a threeway dispute between me, a Baptist minister, and a Jehovah's witness on a South carolina street corner while I was a WOW ambassador. When I realized how stupid all of us were behaving at the time I walked away and hoped that I would never need to feel like I should be involved in some kind of fruitles, "Mine's bigger than yours" conversation ever again. But even after that experience I have probably blown it on occasion.....sigh.
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JeffSjo
What I remember Wierwille sharing was how in spite of Leonard's knowledge of God's word that the messiness of Leonard's classroom set up was so bad that it indicated to Wierwille that Leonard was too much of a mess to be allowed to have anything to do with Wierwille's ministry.
I think Wierwille and most of his trained children have been turning heads away from many good people for decades with similar well placed put downs.
Looking back on these things now it seems obvious that such effective put downs were a part of TWI's method of self promotion and put downs to obtain the preeminence in peoples' hearts and minds. Heck, I think even former leadership who turned away from the evils of TWI still have the "put down reflex."
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skyrider
A nice generic term......"power for abundant living" for one and all.
One step further....."biblical research" as defined by "what the word says." Then, later....vpw is the one who defines "the word." Then, later.......vpw indoctrinates his corps to define "the word."
Jumping hoops and more hoops.....all in the name of "biblical research" and an "absent Christ" and a corps who follow in lockstep. Yet, the corps poem said something about..."not ruling with heavy hand believer's
deeply springing powers."
What's in a name?
Just like today......on the 60th Anniversary of the People's Republic of China.
People's Republic...??????? In China...??????
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T-Bone
Considering the fact that vp plagiarized the material – AND - created an organization that's parasitic – thriving on sucking the time, energy & money from its followers, I think it should be called "Power for Abundant Mooching."
Reflecting on what was the real benefit of the class – I think it was almost like some kind of an insidiously twisted Ponzi scheme. What kind of return did I see for investing my time, energy & money into vp's marketing enterprise? Encouragement to take the class again and again – which generated a hope that some day I'll master PFAL and actually experience the more abundant life he talked about. Seems to me like that's what kept a lot of people going – a collective consciousness of gimme-da-abundance-mentality following vp's carrot-on-a-stick ministry.
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waysider
And to add insult to injury, the premise of the whole class was based on a misrepresentation of the meaning of John 10:10.
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Ham
I dunno.. this is kinda a side note to the discussion.. but considering leonard couldn't see through huckster vic.. let's just say I'm not exactly impressed with leonards operation of "discerning of spirits" or something..
maybe the product was flawed, to begin with..
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skyrider
Another side note to this discussion....
Before Leonard, before 1953.....wierwille was a small-time preacher in van wert, ohio.
From Leonard:
1) Wierwille stole the foundational material that catapulted his "ministry."
2) Wierwille copied the class-based system that Leonard utilized.
3) Wierwille tiered this system with additional classes of interest.
4) Wierwille kept the same 'Johnie-Jumpup, Maggie Muggins' characters as well.
5) Wierwille's collaterals used American Christian Press....Leonard had Canadian Christian Press.
6) Wierwille had found a pyramid scheme that propelled him to "The Teacher."
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waysider
I'm inclined to go with the "flawed product" explanation.
I mean you have all this detailed stuff on discerning of spirits in the Advanced Class and yet nobody seemed to notice that Wierwille was a walking/talking, text book example of the very things he taught were devil possession. (ie: chronic alcoholism, sexual predator, psychological abuser, chronic liar, etc.)
Doesn't look too good for proving DOS is a valid concept.
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GrouchoMarxJr
Ya gotta hand it to Wierwille...he's the slickest con man that ever took me. He made a ton of money, was adored by thousands and lived a hedonistic lifestyle that would make most people blush. He stole everything, originated nothing and strutted around like a king rooster...bedding down teenage girls and getting hammered on drambuie, he spoke with total arrogance and maliciousness. He spoke of love but his own insecurity propelled him into a life of narcissim and total disregard for others.
Wierwille was to Christianity what Jeffery Dahmer was to gourmet dining.
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Ham
reminds me of an "illustration" from Shakespeare..
"a scam by any other name smells the same.."
no wonder the vicster hated illustrations from Shakespeare, Chaucer..
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JustThinking
Ham,
I have to agree. You could put that sticker on everything they did. Promise a lot, deliver nothing. You pay for the class and you do the work.
My first region meeting, I met a very gay corps person. Nobody seemed to notice but me, the new guy. ??? Turns out he later came out. Didn't need the AC to see that one!
JT
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skyrider
Ham.....you certainly have a point, but other facts add insight to this.
1) According to Mrs. W's book.....when vpw called Leonard about getting into his class, Leonard refused wierwille (on the phone) and told him no.
2) Leonard confronted wierwille at the door.....when vpw show up at the Calgary class.
3) Somehow wierwille talked his way into the class..........Leonard's mistake.
4) Wierwille was thrilled with the class.....and repeated it, with Mrs. & Don & others, in June.
5) Not until much later, did Leonard realize that wierwille was teaching his class. Wierwille's true colors started flying high (plagairism, stolen material, not crediting Leonard).....and Leonard started copyrighting his material.
6) The Way Ministry is a splinter group of B.G. Leonard's ministry.
:blink:
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T-Bone
What's in a name? A lot really, when it comes to building a facade. I believe two of vp's specialties were the art of camouflage & deception. He subtly introduced sexual immorality through a certain class and in casual settings featuring his favorite porn video – all in the name of Christian Family & Sex.
The shyster gets the title of "doctor" from a degree granting mill to lend legitimacy to his "ministry" – you know he wanted everyone to call him that cuz I heard enough protocol reminders in leaders meetings. I bet most folks thought even God called him "Dr. Wierwille." Of course he had other titles too – "our father in the Word".. . "the man of god for this day and time and hour".. .hmm how about "man of LoShonta" in homage to BG Leonard.
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Twinky
So now we get to thump BG on the head, as well? :unsure:
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Ham
Not really.. I think it was a legitimate question to ask.. "if the product is so hot, how'd he *miss it*"?
Skyrider brought up a few good points too. Leonard told vic flat out "no".. confronts him in Calgary "Didn't I tell you not to come?"
the vicster badgers leonard into letting him stay..
if anyone was thumping leonard, it was probably himself after realizing vic robbed him blind..
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George Aar
And if I may digress for a moment, and eventually, if one gets painfully honest (IMNSHO), it doesn't look too good for Christianity to be a valid concept either. From where I am now, all the religious arguments about Jesus or Buddha or Mohammed or Krishna or Christian Science vs. Mormon vs. Judaism, etc. ad infinitum, just seem remarkably similar to Trekkies arguing over which Star Trek character could beat up which other character, or if Superman was stronger than the Fantastic Four. It's all so silly.
(Yes, I know, I'm gonna get mine one day, that's fer sure. And, boy, won't I regret it then, yada, yada,...)
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JeffSjo
I never got from Leonard that he openly plagiarized others while maintaining a life long habit of building his name and reputation on the backs of others' sweat, blood, and tears as Wierwille did. One poster pointed out the freakin obvious to me now how that even where it concerned wierwille's very own research dept. at hq. that every single work was published while giving no credit to the poor reasearch dept. that often did it's best under Wierwille's arbitrary and abusive thumb.
I don't ever remember Leonard building a ministry where virtually every leader fell under the sway of whoring themselves for a little name recognition either.
But I have enjoyed some of the doctrinal threads that openly and honestly have called B.G.'s doctrines into question. Isn't that what we were even taught (theoretically anyway) to do with Wierwille's doctrines even according to PFAL teaching!?
As a Christian this is where I go with this kind of valid observation from nonchristians George.....
According to scripture it is God's people who end up in the most trouble when unbelievers happen to be correct in pointing out the the believers sometimes suck.
Once I was part of a threeway dispute between me, a Baptist minister, and a Jehovah's witness on a South carolina street corner while I was a WOW ambassador. When I realized how stupid all of us were behaving at the time I walked away and hoped that I would never need to feel like I should be involved in some kind of fruitles, "Mine's bigger than yours" conversation ever again. But even after that experience I have probably blown it on occasion.....sigh.
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skyrider
BINGO !!
And.....going down the list of other classes, what about?....
The Way Tree class............chain of command and recruitment?
The Renewed Mind class........groupthink, suppression of self and critical thinking?
Christian Family and Sex......husband is lord over wife, and sex, sex, and more sex?
Keys to Biblical Research.....some help, but always stick with wierwille's pfal foundation?
Dealing with the Adversary....spirits are everywhere trying to sidetrack you from twi, "the word?"
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