Nice posts, Cheranne, and there is plenty of information on these threads about cult indoctrination.
Recognizing its effects is a way of combatting it.
But my question is: what (exactly) has helped people here to develop, re-discover, their critical thinking skills?
It's probably more than just hanging out with "essentially normal" people: because the cult mindset makes such people outside the group and thus viewed skeptically. Just "hanging out" with them is more likely to reinforce the defective thinking.
well for me it took a long time and it was a step by step process... I guess if I had actually known I needed to wowrk on it it would have been faster.. but a couple things ..
College as an adult has been probably the most helpful
I took this class on how to research on the internet and it forever changed the way I interpret stuff. I don't mean just internet stuff but books I read now and when I listen to some ones speech. Newspaper articles Radio talk shows and television shows even the ones I just watch for enjoyment.
We were taught to look for certain things when we went to a website. NO particular order of importance.
1 Who Wrote it
2 Why did they write it
3 How does the information benefit them
4 Are they selling something.
5 Who is their message to
6 Who is reading that message.
7 Who is repeating what they say
8 What are their credentials
9 Does the information benefit me and if so how?
Another lesson I learned on a radio talk show.. IT was the only one I could really ever listen to..because the guy actually properly debated issues with his callers. Any way I would be going to pick up my girls from High school and his show was on so I would listen while I waited for them
One day he was going to be discussing a very controversial issue and he told the listeners what a proper debate really was supposed to be like.
each side tells what their idea is.. with out interruption then they discuss not yell out what is right or wrong. point by point. It was the first time I realized you could talk to someone with completely opposing ideas and share what you each believe in a friendly atmosphere, and that it was not only okay but preferable to listen to each other because each person would come to a better understanding of the issue.
another thing that helped my critical thinking skills was having teenagers.. you can not just tell them no, you have to know why you are saying no, or yes or for that matter why they need to make their bed, or do the dishes...
Okay and this is my new one I am learning .. IT is reading with a pencil in my hand.. reading and stopping to consider what is actually being said whether I am just trying to figure out where the writer is trying to lead me or just trying to organize my own thoughts about a subject, and not being afraid to mark in my books. IT is a way of tearing apart what a person is saying and digesting it and mulling it over... questioning it!
One of the biggest problems I have regarding TWI is sometimes reconciling what TWi was to me with the reality of what TWI really was. So I sit and remind myself who wrote it , what his credentials were, why he wrote it, why he taught it. and what it did to other people , and what it did to me.
I think now one of the biggest problems i learned from TWI was just accepting information.. I didn't question it.. at first I did but as time went on I stopped trying .. IT was too hard of a battle with all around me. so i gave up.. Maybe if I had been older it would have ....ed me off and I would have just walked away.
The most important lesson I have learned in College.. just because some one wrote it doesn't make it true and just because someone has a degree doesn't make what they say correct.. you have to really take information you receive and consider the source and the intent of it.. and even the logic of it and the probability of it being true or correct. Information is to be mulled over examined from every angle and considered.
Nice posts, Cheranne, and there is plenty of information on these threads about cult indoctrination.
Recognizing its effects is a way of combatting it.
But my question is: what (exactly) has helped people here to develop, re-discover, their critical thinking skills?
It's probably more than just hanging out with "essentially normal" people: because the cult mindset makes such people outside the group and thus viewed skeptically. Just "hanging out" with them is more likely to reinforce the defective thinking.
Oh I don't know before I got into TWI I hung out with people "essencially normal" a little more on the party side
but that was college and THEN I hung out with Way Believers" ALL the time and basically if the other people didn't get involved in TWI I would not hang out with them,therefore I had 1 source of people who did Way stuff ALL THE TIME
even if going to Bars to witness or whatever it was ALWAYS about TWI.
But your right..thats not enough to get over that "word scramble twi mindset" but it IS a start...some people are
lucky enough to walk away from a cult with No problem I was Not one of them.
It is differant for everyone I am sure,,,I went from being sold out to TWI to you know I just don't give a FLIP
about all this crap or God for that matter but (I really did still on the inside !)
As I got older and had children I still wanted them to know the bible. and that is when I tried to find a church home
(I found that difficult too)because what I needed was to reteach myself all over again from the error of TWI,
(Sorta like a freakn ROOT CANAL!!!)
I fought it for years...still having dreams about TWI times and precious friends I had(the people were always
great(well..most people)it was the message that was wrong.
I took alot of Precept(classes on the bible)Ministries(not joining anything!)the first class I took was on John
then the Lord Series(by Kay Arthur)
I doubt that if I had NO DESIRE to know the TRUTH I would have went that route,but it helped me with my way of thinking.
More like rewiring the whole system so your house won't burn down! This was before I ever even knew about this site
which I think would have been very helpful during the transition from "phantom faith" to FAITH.
We were taught to look for certain things when we went to a website. NO particular order of importance.
1 Who Wrote it
2 Why did they write it
3 How does the information benefit them
4 Are they selling something.
5 Who is their message to
6 Who is reading that message.
7 Who is repeating what they say
8 What are their credentials
9 Does the information benefit me and if so how?
Another lesson I learned on a radio talk show.. IT was the only one I could really ever listen to..because the guy actually properly debated issues with his callers. Any way I would be going to pick up my girls from High school and his show was on so I would listen while I waited for them
One day he was going to be discussing a very controversial issue and he told the listeners what a proper debate really was supposed to be like.
each side tells what their idea is.. with out interruption then they discuss not yell out what is right or wrong. point by point. It was the first time I realized you could talk to someone with completely opposing ideas and share what you each believe in a friendly atmosphere, and that it was not only okay but preferable to listen to each other because each person would come to a better understanding of the issue.
...
IT is reading with a pencil in my hand.. reading and stopping to consider what is actually being said whether I am just trying to figure out where the writer is trying to lead me or just trying to organize my own thoughts about a subject, and not being afraid to mark in my books. IT is a way of tearing apart what a person is saying and digesting it and mulling it over... questioning it!
Leafy, I thought this bore repeating.
Critical thinking is NOT thinking "critically" ie, with a view to tearing something down. Here's how Wikipedia defines it (and you can apply your critical thinking skills to this definition!):
Critical thinking is purposeful and reflective judgement about what to believe or what to do in response to observations, experience, verbal or written expressions, or arguments.
Critical thinking may involve determining the meaning and significance of what is observed or expressed, or, concerning a given inference or argument, determining whether there is adequate justification to accept the conclusion as true.
Hence, Fisher & Scriven define critical thinking as "Skilled, active, interpretation and evaluation of observations, communications, information, and argumentation."[/url]
Critical thinking is NOT thinking "critically" ie, with a view to tearing something down. Here's how Wikipedia defines it (and you can apply your critical thinking skills to this definition!):
Cheranne, you're right, getting rid of TWI thinking is rather like "re-wiring" your brain. This time, however, we get to examine the credentials of the one doing the re-wiring - perhaps in light of Leafy's suggestions. What has this new electrician got to gain by doing the re-wiring? What's his agenda?
What electrician? I don't think we need to read a book on it? Then we are anaylising
the whole concept.
When a bird learns to fly out of the nest.. they just Do It. It is something God given
if you will Natural as the sun rising in the morning.
What altered that (in OUR paralysis in TWI) was program program program to do do do
the same thing over and over and over. Year after Year after Year!
For the sake of 1 purpose and NOT "WORD Over The World" but ....for a ONE WAY of
This may sound corny.....if so....you feel free to find something more pleasant; something you like better.
As a child, I remember we were taught in Sunday School to remember certain things....some of them were Scripture (in school even) and in junior high...some Creed or other...it could have been the Nicene creed but I can't remember now....and if I go look it up I'll lose my train of thought. It goes something like "I know that God is my Heavenly Father without whose knowledge not even a hair can fall from my head. And.....I went to school long enough ago that we were actually taught some scripture....from the Psalms...esp 100 and the 23 in side a Public School.
Around the time that I left, things from the organization began to roil up within me, and I knew it was wrong, or at least suspected that what I was seeing was not "of God". I had an excellent example of Godly behavior and thought in my church's Minister when I was a child growing up. It is amazing how those things stay with you. I was very fortunate to have this family teach me. This was long ago in the 50's when life was very different and people in general were decent human beings.
When I finally sprung myself and my family out.....the first few hours I clung to prayer. Literally I prayed for safety nonstop for a few hours. Although I really didn't believe in this "God won't spit in your direction" business and nobody can live outside the household.....was so ingrained in my soul, that even-though I didn't really believe it....part of my brain said what if it is true??????
It didn't take very long, maybe a day or 2, until I realized that we were probably going to live through this and the adrenaline fell to normal levels. In our society, in order to remain living, there's the dishwasher to empty, the bathroom to clean. Somebody has to do the shopping and push the vacuum . Well you get the idea. While my body was moving, my mind just kept reciting all these things and I thought of every phrase as I was saying it to myself .
We left the last weekend in March and before we knew it, it was the 4th of July, and we had made it 3 months. I figured if we survived that long, God was probably not going to send the raving dogs after us.
But that is only the beginning. It took Waydale at first to show me what was really happening, and then this place where I could start getting my head on straight. I'm gonna hang around here because I have some real true friends whom I can copy on my route towards becoming whole again.
This may sound corny.....if so....you feel free to find something more pleasant; something you like better.
As a child, I remember we were taught in Sunday School to remember certain things....some of them were Scripture (in school even) and in junior high...some Creed or other...it could have been the Nicene creed but I can't remember now....and if I go look it up I'll lose my train of thought. It goes something like "I know that God is my Heavenly Father without whose knowledge not even a hair can fall from my head. And.....I went to school long enough ago that we were actually taught some scripture....from the Psalms...esp 100 and the 23 in side a Public School.
Around the time that I left, things from the organization began to roil up within me, and I knew it was wrong, or at least suspected that what I was seeing was not "of God". I had an excellent example of Godly behavior and thought in my church's Minister when I was a child growing up. It is amazing how those things stay with you. I was very fortunate to have this family teach me. This was long ago in the 50's when life was very different and people in general were decent human beings.
When I finally sprung myself and my family out.....the first few hours I clung to prayer. Literally I prayed for safety nonstop for a few hours. Although I really didn't believe in this "God won't spit in your direction" business and nobody can live outside the household.....was so ingrained in my soul, that even-though I didn't really believe it....part of my brain said what if it is true??????
It didn't take very long, maybe a day or 2, until I realized that we were probably going to live through this and the adrenaline fell to normal levels. In our society, in order to remain living, there's the dishwasher to empty, the bathroom to clean. Somebody has to do the shopping and push the vacuum . Well you get the idea. While my body was moving, my mind just kept reciting all these things and I thought of every phrase as I was saying it to myself .
We left the last weekend in March and before we knew it, it was the 4th of July, and we had made it 3 months. I figured if we survived that long, God was probably not going to send the raving dogs after us.
But that is only the beginning. It took Waydale at first to show me what was really happening, and then this place where I could start getting my head on straight. I'm gonna hang around here because I have some real true friends whom I can copy on my route towards becoming whole again.
I agree with that too. I remember that feeling (Man this ain't right! It felt like(to me)like slamming on the brakes on a black ice road and not being able to STOP!)
I trained myself from day one when asking What about...so on and so forth and EVERYONE(IN TWI) said you just have to take The Class!
Soon I was the one running classes and telling others You just have to take The Class!
When family members were concerned I would just put them on IGNORE(as Earthly family)because the were not"believers".
When leaving I felt the same way about Oh No (your walking away from "Gods Word" and there is NO Armor on your back
Satan desires to sift you as wheat..blah blah blah(fear based tactics)the sky is falling the sky is falling...
but like Krys said yeah...I thought What IF?
So I shut it down ! Just SHUT IT DOWN (all of it) like turning off the stadium light after a crazy football game
at Night and no one is there and it is just QUIET!
I knew the abusive authority I was under was not God's doing, but was from wicked and unreasonable men and women who I have seen destroy many many lives. I started waking up to the fact that the only real authority they had over my life was that which I allowed. I prayed for the abuse to stop. The prayer was answered when I left, as the realization grew upon me that as long as those people have breath they will abuse. They will lie about people to destroy their reputation. They will manipulate. They will still scream and curse and belittle, despite lies about "kinder and gentler ministry". They worship their positions, which they have manipulated themselves into climbing over the backs of others just like any political or business appointment. They sell out to these positions. They bow to and kiss the ring of their superiors more than any Catholic does the Pope. And because of this they sacrifice any truth of the Word they once had in their lives. The motto of the Way Corps is no longer "It Is Written". It is "It Is Position". No person can take the truth of the Word to these leaders and read it line by line and show how it contradicts how they are living and making decisions. They won't listen, and they will take action against the messenger despite all their act seeming open to any idea.
Some of the younger and next generation are biding their time until these leaders step down because they feel they are called to help and change things. They will waste their youth, life, and the opportunity cost of building something that could last. They don't realize the truth that Jesus taught that Pharisees will make disciples threefold the child of hell that they are. That's who will succeed into these positions. Not the purehearted and genuine. You can't put new wine in old wineskins. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees. These young people will learn they are not greater than the scriptures, and can't "believe" to overcome the evil. If Jesus Christ couldn't except by dying and that was to lead people to a better way, they cannot.
I knew the abusive authority I was under was not God's doing, but was from wicked and unreasonable men and women who I have seen destroy many many lives. I started waking up to the fact that the only real authority they had over my life was that which I allowed. I prayed for the abuse to stop. The prayer was answered when I left, as the realization grew upon me that as long as those people have breath they will abuse. They will lie about people to destroy their reputation. They will manipulate. They will still scream and curse and belittle, despite lies about "kinder and gentler ministry". They worship their positions, which they have manipulated themselves into climbing over the backs of others just like any political or business appointment. They sell out to these positions. They bow to and kiss the ring of their superiors more than any Catholic does the Pope. And because of this they sacrifice any truth of the Word they once had in their lives. The motto of the Way Corps is no longer "It Is Written". It is "It Is Position". No person can take the truth of the Word to these leaders and read it line by line and show how it contradicts how they are living and making decisions. They won't listen, and they will take action against the messenger despite all their act seeming open to any idea.
Some of the younger and next generation are biding their time until these leaders step down because they feel they are called to help and change things. They will waste their youth, life, and the opportunity cost of building something that could last. They don't realize the truth that Jesus taught that Pharisees will make disciples threefold the child of hell that they are. That's who will succeed into these positions. Not the purehearted and genuine. You can't put new wine in old wineskins. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees. These young people will learn they are not greater than the scriptures, and can't "believe" to overcome the evil. If Jesus Christ couldn't except by dying and that was to lead people to a better way, they cannot.
It is a waste for the Youth and sadly it can be prevented if THEY "WAKE UP".
It is a waste for the Youth and sadly it can be prevented if THEY "WAKE UP".
I'll broaden this outside of the cult mentality if you will. We do not teach critical thinking to children - we teach them how to "do" something - wash the dishes, mow the lawn, etc. But they cannot wake up if we don't teach them critical and independent thinking. They must not be afraid of asking about anything - but we inject our "Robert's Rules of Order" into the class room and shut them down. Now I am in no way blaming every teacher - heck I'm a university researcher - I am simply saying that in order to make children "proper" little things we take away critical thinking and instead we instill fear of critical thinking - I mean really - how many people tell their kids that's it's OK to ask if Dad or Mom are wrong about something?..and we do it in the name of protecting them. My $0.02 and worth at least a nickel.
When I think of the phrase Critical Thinking as always(I think in a medical way symbolically)I think Critical Care.
Critical Condition(ER/Trama Intensive Care)
So If you have ever been in that situation car accidents,fires and YOU are the only one THERE with this other person
in (Critical Condition)and you don't have a cell phone!
What do you do ...What can You do as your heart also races with adreline to what do I do move the person away from danger...don't move them ,do CPR and so on and so forth.
My first reaction is to Pray! Not a long prayer more like "HELP".
So..what do YOU do when your the one in a critical situation and you are the only one that is say out there and
got the rattlesnake bite and the clock is ticking....do you make the bite with an X and suck the poison out and spit
it to the ground or do you try to make it on foot to the nearest place(no cell phones remember)
How do you save yourself from this accident(and I look at getting involved in TWI an accident waiting to happen)
Some people just had mild experiences and others had to be "Life Flighted" to critical care and...some did NOT
make it.
People are waking up I hope with all the information available about Cults and all but I hope they are walking
Nice posts, Cheranne, and there is plenty of information on these threads about cult indoctrination.
Recognizing its effects is a way of combatting it.
But my question is: what (exactly) has helped people here to develop, re-discover, their critical thinking skills?
It's probably more than just hanging out with "essentially normal" people: because the cult mindset makes such people outside the group and thus viewed skeptically. Just "hanging out" with them is more likely to reinforce the defective thinking.
Leafy, I thought this bore repeating.
Critical thinking is NOT thinking "critically" ie, with a view to tearing something down. Here's how Wikipedia defines it (and you can apply your critical thinking skills to this definition!):
Cheranne, you're right, getting rid of TWI thinking is rather like "re-wiring" your brain. This time, however, we get to examine the credentials of the one doing the re-wiring - perhaps in light of Leafy's suggestions. What has this new electrician got to gain by doing the re-wiring? What's his agenda?
I just started reading an interesting book "How the Mind Works" by Steven Pinker [author of "The Language Instinct"] and thought it had some intriguing ideas that may address your question – maybe not – but it got me thinking more about what it takes to fine tune critical thinking skills; thinking about my own thinking process.
~~
Pinker talked about the mind being like a well-designed system – the components performing their functions as if by magic to the casual observer. He said the faculty with which we ponder the world has no ability to peer inside itself or our other faculties to see what makes it tick. Philosophers get into that big time with stuff like epistemology, the analysis of how we know.
It's fascinating when Pinker gets into the reverse-engineering involved in building a humanlike robot to perform just one function. He says the gap between imaginative robots and real ones is his starting point because it shows the first step in knowing ourselves. The mind is an incredible thing and we take so much for granted. He says the reason there are no humanlike robots is not that the idea of a mechanical mind is misguided but that the engineering problems we humans solve as we see, process, plan and act upon every day are far more challenging than landing on the moon or sequencing the human genome.
It's sort of funny – how much stuff the human mind has figured out – and yet how some aspects of the mind still remain a mystery. Throw in stuff about genetics, emotions, desires, dreams, drives, environment, and whatever else is involved in our makeup – geez, trying to figure out exactly what were the reasons behind me joining TWI is beyond me. .. . well, let's just say I don't want to repeat such a stupid mistake again – a good reason to work on those critical thinking skills for sure.
~~
Mulling over the definition you quoted from Wikipedia – I see critical thinking skills as an intricate system of diagnostic tools and that because of the complexity and numerous tasks they perform requires periodic maintenance & calibration. You need a diagnostic tool to verify your diagnostic tool is remaining true to some standard. It's using critical thinking to check out our own critical thinking.
I believe sometimes we change our minds on an issue not because someone on the other side has so thoroughly convinced us. It might have something to do with suspending our assault and reviewing our own game plan; finding something amiss that moves us to rethink the problem. For me it's often finding a faulty assumption or bias on my part – or maybe just becoming aware of how much my assumption or bias can have an influence. I don't think there's so much of a problem with having assumptions and preferences as there is if I'm not aware of their presence – and perhaps just as important, how much weight each carries in coloring my viewpoint.
...ritual abuse groups may share the following characteristics with coercive cults: ...dogma is more important than people, ... a radical separation of good and evil,... a demand for purity," members are watched all the time and their loyalty is tested "... the dogma is enacted through rituals,... regularly observe(d) rituals, rituals frequently invoke supernatural intervention,... staged events such as planned spontaneity... mystical manipulations, cults capitalize on members' fear and ignorance,... a sense of separateness (is promoted) through an "us" and "them" mentality, ... siege mentality with a paranoid view of the outside world, humor is forbidden, resistance of members is worn down through physical and emotional manipulations, a person's identity is destroyed... to create a new one," members give up their autonomy to be approved," mind control is used to indoctrinate the victim into the group's belief system, individuality is uniformly suppressed,... a well-defined hierarchy," members are used to benefit leader(s), "mind control is used ...to convert the victim to the group's belief system,... to insure secrecy... and to carry out cult instructions. (Safe Passage to Healing p 47 48)
Survivors in cults may be taught to feel superior to others. This creates feelings of alienation. They may be programmed how to behave outside the cult and who to have as friends.
Can people "unknowingly" reporting back to the original cult or other cults (online or offline)?
Safe Passage to Healing states that protector or maintainer alters, may sound like they are still cult active.
It is very important to cut all contact with possible cult members and/or unhealthy groups that may have handlers (people that know the triggers and use them for their own or someone else's benefit.)
The strong need for some survivors to be a part of something, anything, even if it may be harmful to the person. Ends justify the means. Doing immoral things to help "protect" the group. Survivors join the group to heal, but the malevolent survivor groups hidden goal could be to keep them from healing by "messing them up." This survivor group may be controlled or may have been formed by an outside group, cult or organization.
It is difficult to know when one is brainwashed, esp. if this is occurring in an alter. Codependency characteristics can be used by some groups to revictimize survivors, making them emotionally dependent on the group.
Codependency can be defined as a condition marked by an inordinate reliance on person(s), thing(s), or activities, for personal well-being and self-esteem (Breaking the Circle... preface section.) This could include the use of guilt or strong emotions to bond a person to the group.
Hassan's (Combatting Cult Mind Contro) criteria for mind control in a group.
The leader is always right and dissent is frowned upon or squelched.
The organization considers themselves a team and not allow others in, or other survivor orgs. are considered bad.
They are the best org. their team is the best.
The leader or leadership group makes all the important decisions, all must follow, public dissent is squelched.
Some people may take the name of the leader or imitate the leader.
In a malevolent org. those that follow the leader's rules are complimented, those that dissent are told they are difficult or impolite, their opinions are dismissed as an attack, not acknowledged that they might have some validity.
(Excerpts from S M A R T (Stop Mind control And Ritual abuse Today Issue 29 - Nov. 1999
First, I make an effort to clear my head of one-sided thinking. What I did initially that helped me break out of the TWI mind-clench was seek out completely opposing viewpoints. I listened to music that would not have been approved, I used words that had been forbidden, and I read a lot of things that would have been frowned-upon. Not because I was looking for new answers but just to clear my head of the one-sided dogma. That was a needed first step before I could figure out what I actually thought about things. I still do that today if I find my thinking getting a little skewed.
The second thing, is to look for the valid points of each opinion. Sometimes it takes a real effort to acknowledge that someone is making a good point when they seem to be spouting an opinion that is in complete opposition to my own. I am finding this tactic particularly helpful in trying to sort out the political issues we are grappling with today. I think that this is what our founding fathers did so well. They didn't all agree. They had some seriously opposing ideas. But they were all more interested in finding a middle ground that would advance everyone forward just a little bit, than trying to advance their own individual reputations and agendas. (Thank God)
I also think a healthy dose of skepticism is good. (not criticism or sarcasm) Just a willingness to ask the hard questions. (As someone posted: who has a dog in this hunt? Are they trying to sell me something and why? What do they stand to gain? What do they stand to lose? Are they willing to work toward a compramise or just seeking one-sided solutions?)
And finally, I think you have to have a high enough opinion of your own worth to stand up for yourself. We, as a society, seem so uncomfortable at times with self-advocacy. We seem uncomfortable with asking direct, to-the-point questions about things. We are afraid of looking harsh or angry; of being called "mean". So what? If something is going to impact my life I think I have the right to as full an understanding of all the details as possible, whether it makes you a little uncomfortable or not.
I'll broaden this outside of the cult mentality if you will. We do not teach critical thinking to children - we teach them how to "do" something - wash the dishes, mow the lawn, etc. But they cannot wake up if we don't teach them critical and independent thinking. They must not be afraid of asking about anything - but we inject our "Robert's Rules of Order" into the class room and shut them down. Now I am in no way blaming every teacher - heck I'm a university researcher - I am simply saying that in order to make children "proper" little things we take away critical thinking and instead we instill fear of critical thinking - I mean really - how many people tell their kids that's it's OK to ask if Dad or Mom are wrong about something?..and we do it in the name of protecting them. My $0.02 and worth at least a nickel.
RumRunner: Yes, this really does need to sit outside "cult mentality." I really only started it in ATW because so many of us have had our critical thinking skills crushed by TWI. And because I wanted to get people thinking.
Critical thinking skills are essential to any good decision making.
And yes, children are good at asking "why?" to the annoyance of adults so that the adults want to shut the kids up. Better training of older children would be to encourage them to ask questions at specific times, and then to give them as complete an answer as possible and to encourage (guide) them to find out and dissect other answers for themselves ("find [6] different answers on the net; what do they have in common and what differs? Why? What does it show you about the author's POV?" etc)
So much can crush our critical thinking skills. A lot in the world at large is to do with media presentation, so that we see this person or that political party as goodies or baddies. My PoV as a Brit is sometimes considerably different from that of many Americans on a lot of international issues - it doesn't make either me or Americans right or wrong. Why might our PoVs differ? Probably a Chinese or a Zimbabwean would see things differently again. Maybe we're all right or all wrong. It depends what propaganda (okay, media reporting) we are subject to.
It's quite interesting sometimes to analyze advertisements, especially for similar products, and consider why one might "sell" better than another.
T-Bone, I like your thought of periodic maintenance and specially about re-calibrating.
And it's never shameful to change one's PoV, opinion, etc, if more information is found out. In fact, surely it's shameful to hang onto a previous opinion that is shown to be in error (how many adults really do still believe in Santa Claus, or did we not change our minds when later evidence disproved Santa's existence?). We're happy enough to do this in small things; why not big things as well?
I think a big issue for some of us here - with regards to real critical thinking - is that we STILL don't want to let go of some of our more comfortable a-priori assumptions about life in general. I.E. - we still assume that the basic Biblical frame of God, Jesus Christ, the Devil, heaven and hell, etc. is reality.
Until we're willing to put it all on the table, all of our superstitions, feelings, intuitions, "faith", and whatever, we're just paying lip service to "critical thinking" and not really practicing it at all. Much like what we did with WayWorld dogma. We claimed to be "researching" and even practiced a form of some sort of scholarship, but we never ever questioned the basic tenets of Wierwillism. So what did we get out of it? Not much.
Likewise if we hang onto notions of an invisible, loving God and His superman Son, and then force all of our cranial imput through that filter, we're not thinking critically. No doubt it makes us feel good though...
Likewise if we hang onto notions of an invisible, loving God and His superman Son, and then force all of our cranial imput through that filter, we're not thinking critically. No doubt it makes us feel good though...
And likewise, George, if we hang onto ideas that say there is no God.
We all start from a set of assumptions, prejudices, and backgrounds. We need to know what our own assumptions are, and be able to take that into account, revising same if necessary.
Recognising the starting point is significant in critical thinking, but to think that we don't have a starting point at all (as George seems to suppose) is a bit like being in the middle of a whiteout and not knowing which way the nearest safe place might be.
I don't think anyone here could accuse Dr. Francis Collins of not using critical thinking skills. . . this is the guy who mapped out human DNA. . . the Human Genome Project. . .an atheist for much of his adult life and one of the world's leading scientists. . . . is now a believer in Christ.
If it is true that my thoughts are just a random bunch of chemical reactions. . . . . my brain and mind evolved by chance and an irrational process with no reason other than astronomical luck and some magical beating of insurmountable odds behind it. . . . why would I even trust them? They have no meaning. . . .nothing backs them up. . . . . You don't get rational from irrational. . . . rational thought did not evolve from an irrational process. . . . something causes our minds to be rational. . . our acts to be moral or immoral. . . . and our universe to be something from nothing. Something makes you. . . you. . .
If you want to believe it is chance. . . .luck. . . . the flying spaghetti monster. . . .or even aliens seeding the planet. . . . than you actually have way more faith than I do. . . .
It does not hurt to seriously question . . . . I don't want to live a lie. . . but, it also does not hurt to seriously and not dismissively consider. . . . no matter what our shared cult past is or isn't.
And likewise, George, if we hang onto ideas that say there is no God.
We all start from a set of assumptions, prejudices, and backgrounds. We need to know what our own assumptions are, and be able to take that into account, revising same if necessary.
Recognising the starting point is significant in critical thinking, but to think that we don't have a starting point at all (as George seems to suppose) is a bit like being in the middle of a whiteout and not knowing which way the nearest safe place might be.
Indeed, and my original starting point was that of Joe Believer. My current position is simply that of agnostic (the traditional dictionary definition). That is, I don't suppose there to be something if there's no evidence of it. I also don't suppose that tthere's something to numerology, Buddhism, acupuncture, Big Foot sightings, flying saucers, or a whole litany of stuff that lots of us spend a whole lotta time chasing after.
If you think I'm terribly mistaken and in danger of hellfire (or worse), just give me some evidence. I'm coachable.
And of course, whatever our cause may be, we can find a champion to laud for his wisdom in accepting our beliefs now as his own. I think that would file under "appeal to authority" in the "logical fallacies" categories, no?
Recommended Posts
Top Posters In This Topic
7
11
8
15
Popular Days
Sep 29
17
Oct 12
11
Oct 11
9
Oct 6
7
Top Posters In This Topic
Tzaia 7 posts
Twinky 11 posts
geisha779 8 posts
cheranne 15 posts
Popular Days
Sep 29 2009
17 posts
Oct 12 2009
11 posts
Oct 11 2009
9 posts
Oct 6 2009
7 posts
Popular Posts
Twinky
Loss or dulling of critical thinking skills is a recurrent theme in a number of threads. And in reading post-cult self-help type of material, it’s apparently widespread among cult survivors. The cul
Bishop
I don't think God being good and him prohibiting us from fully utilizing the mind that he gave us is compatible.
leafytwiglet
Hmm good question Twinky. well for me it took a long time and it was a step by step process... I guess if I had actually known I needed to wowrk on it it would have been faster.. but a couple things
Twinky
Nice posts, Cheranne, and there is plenty of information on these threads about cult indoctrination.
Recognizing its effects is a way of combatting it.
But my question is: what (exactly) has helped people here to develop, re-discover, their critical thinking skills?
It's probably more than just hanging out with "essentially normal" people: because the cult mindset makes such people outside the group and thus viewed skeptically. Just "hanging out" with them is more likely to reinforce the defective thinking.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
leafytwiglet
Hmm good question Twinky.
well for me it took a long time and it was a step by step process... I guess if I had actually known I needed to wowrk on it it would have been faster.. but a couple things ..
College as an adult has been probably the most helpful
I took this class on how to research on the internet and it forever changed the way I interpret stuff. I don't mean just internet stuff but books I read now and when I listen to some ones speech. Newspaper articles Radio talk shows and television shows even the ones I just watch for enjoyment.
We were taught to look for certain things when we went to a website. NO particular order of importance.
1 Who Wrote it
2 Why did they write it
3 How does the information benefit them
4 Are they selling something.
5 Who is their message to
6 Who is reading that message.
7 Who is repeating what they say
8 What are their credentials
9 Does the information benefit me and if so how?
Another lesson I learned on a radio talk show.. IT was the only one I could really ever listen to..because the guy actually properly debated issues with his callers. Any way I would be going to pick up my girls from High school and his show was on so I would listen while I waited for them
One day he was going to be discussing a very controversial issue and he told the listeners what a proper debate really was supposed to be like.
each side tells what their idea is.. with out interruption then they discuss not yell out what is right or wrong. point by point. It was the first time I realized you could talk to someone with completely opposing ideas and share what you each believe in a friendly atmosphere, and that it was not only okay but preferable to listen to each other because each person would come to a better understanding of the issue.
another thing that helped my critical thinking skills was having teenagers.. you can not just tell them no, you have to know why you are saying no, or yes or for that matter why they need to make their bed, or do the dishes...
Okay and this is my new one I am learning .. IT is reading with a pencil in my hand.. reading and stopping to consider what is actually being said whether I am just trying to figure out where the writer is trying to lead me or just trying to organize my own thoughts about a subject, and not being afraid to mark in my books. IT is a way of tearing apart what a person is saying and digesting it and mulling it over... questioning it!
One of the biggest problems I have regarding TWI is sometimes reconciling what TWi was to me with the reality of what TWI really was. So I sit and remind myself who wrote it , what his credentials were, why he wrote it, why he taught it. and what it did to other people , and what it did to me.
I think now one of the biggest problems i learned from TWI was just accepting information.. I didn't question it.. at first I did but as time went on I stopped trying .. IT was too hard of a battle with all around me. so i gave up.. Maybe if I had been older it would have ....ed me off and I would have just walked away.
The most important lesson I have learned in College.. just because some one wrote it doesn't make it true and just because someone has a degree doesn't make what they say correct.. you have to really take information you receive and consider the source and the intent of it.. and even the logic of it and the probability of it being true or correct. Information is to be mulled over examined from every angle and considered.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
Oh I don't know before I got into TWI I hung out with people "essencially normal" a little more on the party side
but that was college and THEN I hung out with Way Believers" ALL the time and basically if the other people didn't get involved in TWI I would not hang out with them,therefore I had 1 source of people who did Way stuff ALL THE TIME
even if going to Bars to witness or whatever it was ALWAYS about TWI.
But your right..thats not enough to get over that "word scramble twi mindset" but it IS a start...some people are
lucky enough to walk away from a cult with No problem I was Not one of them.
It is differant for everyone I am sure,,,I went from being sold out to TWI to you know I just don't give a FLIP
about all this crap or God for that matter but (I really did still on the inside !)
As I got older and had children I still wanted them to know the bible. and that is when I tried to find a church home
(I found that difficult too)because what I needed was to reteach myself all over again from the error of TWI,
(Sorta like a freakn ROOT CANAL!!!)
I fought it for years...still having dreams about TWI times and precious friends I had(the people were always
great(well..most people)it was the message that was wrong.
I took alot of Precept(classes on the bible)Ministries(not joining anything!)the first class I took was on John
then the Lord Series(by Kay Arthur)
I doubt that if I had NO DESIRE to know the TRUTH I would have went that route,but it helped me with my way of thinking.
More like rewiring the whole system so your house won't burn down! This was before I ever even knew about this site
which I think would have been very helpful during the transition from "phantom faith" to FAITH.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
Leafy, I thought this bore repeating.
Critical thinking is NOT thinking "critically" ie, with a view to tearing something down. Here's how Wikipedia defines it (and you can apply your critical thinking skills to this definition!):
Cheranne, you're right, getting rid of TWI thinking is rather like "re-wiring" your brain. This time, however, we get to examine the credentials of the one doing the re-wiring - perhaps in light of Leafy's suggestions. What has this new electrician got to gain by doing the re-wiring? What's his agenda?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Critical_thinking
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
http://www.skepdic.com/ctinfo.html
I meant to add, you can download the first chapter for free, so as to get a taste of what's it all about...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
Link to comment
Share on other sites
JeffSjo
HHHMMM...uh....I don't get this whole thread.
hehehe
Edited by JeffSjoLink to comment
Share on other sites
krys
This may sound corny.....if so....you feel free to find something more pleasant; something you like better.
As a child, I remember we were taught in Sunday School to remember certain things....some of them were Scripture (in school even) and in junior high...some Creed or other...it could have been the Nicene creed but I can't remember now....and if I go look it up I'll lose my train of thought. It goes something like "I know that God is my Heavenly Father without whose knowledge not even a hair can fall from my head. And.....I went to school long enough ago that we were actually taught some scripture....from the Psalms...esp 100 and the 23 in side a Public School.
Around the time that I left, things from the organization began to roil up within me, and I knew it was wrong, or at least suspected that what I was seeing was not "of God". I had an excellent example of Godly behavior and thought in my church's Minister when I was a child growing up. It is amazing how those things stay with you. I was very fortunate to have this family teach me. This was long ago in the 50's when life was very different and people in general were decent human beings.
When I finally sprung myself and my family out.....the first few hours I clung to prayer. Literally I prayed for safety nonstop for a few hours. Although I really didn't believe in this "God won't spit in your direction" business and nobody can live outside the household.....was so ingrained in my soul, that even-though I didn't really believe it....part of my brain said what if it is true??????
It didn't take very long, maybe a day or 2, until I realized that we were probably going to live through this and the adrenaline fell to normal levels. In our society, in order to remain living, there's the dishwasher to empty, the bathroom to clean. Somebody has to do the shopping and push the vacuum . Well you get the idea. While my body was moving, my mind just kept reciting all these things and I thought of every phrase as I was saying it to myself .
We left the last weekend in March and before we knew it, it was the 4th of July, and we had made it 3 months. I figured if we survived that long, God was probably not going to send the raving dogs after us.
But that is only the beginning. It took Waydale at first to show me what was really happening, and then this place where I could start getting my head on straight. I'm gonna hang around here because I have some real true friends whom I can copy on my route towards becoming whole again.
Edited by krysLink to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
I agree with that too. I remember that feeling (Man this ain't right! It felt like(to me)like slamming on the brakes on a black ice road and not being able to STOP!)
I trained myself from day one when asking What about...so on and so forth and EVERYONE(IN TWI) said you just have to take The Class!
Soon I was the one running classes and telling others You just have to take The Class!
When family members were concerned I would just put them on IGNORE(as Earthly family)because the were not"believers".
When leaving I felt the same way about Oh No (your walking away from "Gods Word" and there is NO Armor on your back
Satan desires to sift you as wheat..blah blah blah(fear based tactics)the sky is falling the sky is falling...
but like Krys said yeah...I thought What IF?
So I shut it down ! Just SHUT IT DOWN (all of it) like turning off the stadium light after a crazy football game
at Night and no one is there and it is just QUIET!
and it is YOU.
...and it is God.
Then start again.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
chockfull
I knew the abusive authority I was under was not God's doing, but was from wicked and unreasonable men and women who I have seen destroy many many lives. I started waking up to the fact that the only real authority they had over my life was that which I allowed. I prayed for the abuse to stop. The prayer was answered when I left, as the realization grew upon me that as long as those people have breath they will abuse. They will lie about people to destroy their reputation. They will manipulate. They will still scream and curse and belittle, despite lies about "kinder and gentler ministry". They worship their positions, which they have manipulated themselves into climbing over the backs of others just like any political or business appointment. They sell out to these positions. They bow to and kiss the ring of their superiors more than any Catholic does the Pope. And because of this they sacrifice any truth of the Word they once had in their lives. The motto of the Way Corps is no longer "It Is Written". It is "It Is Position". No person can take the truth of the Word to these leaders and read it line by line and show how it contradicts how they are living and making decisions. They won't listen, and they will take action against the messenger despite all their act seeming open to any idea.
Some of the younger and next generation are biding their time until these leaders step down because they feel they are called to help and change things. They will waste their youth, life, and the opportunity cost of building something that could last. They don't realize the truth that Jesus taught that Pharisees will make disciples threefold the child of hell that they are. That's who will succeed into these positions. Not the purehearted and genuine. You can't put new wine in old wineskins. Beware the leaven of the Pharisees. These young people will learn they are not greater than the scriptures, and can't "believe" to overcome the evil. If Jesus Christ couldn't except by dying and that was to lead people to a better way, they cannot.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
It is a waste for the Youth and sadly it can be prevented if THEY "WAKE UP".
Link to comment
Share on other sites
RumRunner
I'll broaden this outside of the cult mentality if you will. We do not teach critical thinking to children - we teach them how to "do" something - wash the dishes, mow the lawn, etc. But they cannot wake up if we don't teach them critical and independent thinking. They must not be afraid of asking about anything - but we inject our "Robert's Rules of Order" into the class room and shut them down. Now I am in no way blaming every teacher - heck I'm a university researcher - I am simply saying that in order to make children "proper" little things we take away critical thinking and instead we instill fear of critical thinking - I mean really - how many people tell their kids that's it's OK to ask if Dad or Mom are wrong about something?..and we do it in the name of protecting them. My $0.02 and worth at least a nickel.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
When I think of the phrase Critical Thinking as always(I think in a medical way symbolically)I think Critical Care.
Critical Condition(ER/Trama Intensive Care)
So If you have ever been in that situation car accidents,fires and YOU are the only one THERE with this other person
in (Critical Condition)and you don't have a cell phone!
What do you do ...What can You do as your heart also races with adreline to what do I do move the person away from danger...don't move them ,do CPR and so on and so forth.
My first reaction is to Pray! Not a long prayer more like "HELP".
So..what do YOU do when your the one in a critical situation and you are the only one that is say out there and
got the rattlesnake bite and the clock is ticking....do you make the bite with an X and suck the poison out and spit
it to the ground or do you try to make it on foot to the nearest place(no cell phones remember)
How do you save yourself from this accident(and I look at getting involved in TWI an accident waiting to happen)
Some people just had mild experiences and others had to be "Life Flighted" to critical care and...some did NOT
make it.
People are waking up I hope with all the information available about Cults and all but I hope they are walking
out .
Edited by cheranneLink to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
Just throwing this out there for thought.
<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="
Link to comment
Share on other sites
T-Bone
I just started reading an interesting book "How the Mind Works" by Steven Pinker [author of "The Language Instinct"] and thought it had some intriguing ideas that may address your question – maybe not – but it got me thinking more about what it takes to fine tune critical thinking skills; thinking about my own thinking process.
~~
Pinker talked about the mind being like a well-designed system – the components performing their functions as if by magic to the casual observer. He said the faculty with which we ponder the world has no ability to peer inside itself or our other faculties to see what makes it tick. Philosophers get into that big time with stuff like epistemology, the analysis of how we know.
It's fascinating when Pinker gets into the reverse-engineering involved in building a humanlike robot to perform just one function. He says the gap between imaginative robots and real ones is his starting point because it shows the first step in knowing ourselves. The mind is an incredible thing and we take so much for granted. He says the reason there are no humanlike robots is not that the idea of a mechanical mind is misguided but that the engineering problems we humans solve as we see, process, plan and act upon every day are far more challenging than landing on the moon or sequencing the human genome.
It's sort of funny – how much stuff the human mind has figured out – and yet how some aspects of the mind still remain a mystery. Throw in stuff about genetics, emotions, desires, dreams, drives, environment, and whatever else is involved in our makeup – geez, trying to figure out exactly what were the reasons behind me joining TWI is beyond me.
.. . well, let's just say I don't want to repeat such a stupid mistake again – a good reason to work on those critical thinking skills for sure.
~~
Mulling over the definition you quoted from Wikipedia – I see critical thinking skills as an intricate system of diagnostic tools and that because of the complexity and numerous tasks they perform requires periodic maintenance & calibration. You need a diagnostic tool to verify your diagnostic tool is remaining true to some standard. It's using critical thinking to check out our own critical thinking.
I believe sometimes we change our minds on an issue not because someone on the other side has so thoroughly convinced us. It might have something to do with suspending our assault and reviewing our own game plan; finding something amiss that moves us to rethink the problem. For me it's often finding a faulty assumption or bias on my part – or maybe just becoming aware of how much my assumption or bias can have an influence. I don't think there's so much of a problem with having assumptions and preferences as there is if I'm not aware of their presence – and perhaps just as important, how much weight each carries in coloring my viewpoint.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
Cult Information Article
...ritual abuse groups may share the following characteristics with coercive cults: ...dogma is more important than people, ... a radical separation of good and evil,... a demand for purity," members are watched all the time and their loyalty is tested "... the dogma is enacted through rituals,... regularly observe(d) rituals, rituals frequently invoke supernatural intervention,... staged events such as planned spontaneity... mystical manipulations, cults capitalize on members' fear and ignorance,... a sense of separateness (is promoted) through an "us" and "them" mentality, ... siege mentality with a paranoid view of the outside world, humor is forbidden, resistance of members is worn down through physical and emotional manipulations, a person's identity is destroyed... to create a new one," members give up their autonomy to be approved," mind control is used to indoctrinate the victim into the group's belief system, individuality is uniformly suppressed,... a well-defined hierarchy," members are used to benefit leader(s), "mind control is used ...to convert the victim to the group's belief system,... to insure secrecy... and to carry out cult instructions. (Safe Passage to Healing p 47 48)
Survivors in cults may be taught to feel superior to others. This creates feelings of alienation. They may be programmed how to behave outside the cult and who to have as friends.
Can people "unknowingly" reporting back to the original cult or other cults (online or offline)?
Safe Passage to Healing states that protector or maintainer alters, may sound like they are still cult active.
It is very important to cut all contact with possible cult members and/or unhealthy groups that may have handlers (people that know the triggers and use them for their own or someone else's benefit.)
The strong need for some survivors to be a part of something, anything, even if it may be harmful to the person. Ends justify the means. Doing immoral things to help "protect" the group. Survivors join the group to heal, but the malevolent survivor groups hidden goal could be to keep them from healing by "messing them up." This survivor group may be controlled or may have been formed by an outside group, cult or organization.
It is difficult to know when one is brainwashed, esp. if this is occurring in an alter. Codependency characteristics can be used by some groups to revictimize survivors, making them emotionally dependent on the group.
Codependency can be defined as a condition marked by an inordinate reliance on person(s), thing(s), or activities, for personal well-being and self-esteem (Breaking the Circle... preface section.) This could include the use of guilt or strong emotions to bond a person to the group.
Hassan's (Combatting Cult Mind Contro) criteria for mind control in a group.
The leader is always right and dissent is frowned upon or squelched.
The organization considers themselves a team and not allow others in, or other survivor orgs. are considered bad.
They are the best org. their team is the best.
The leader or leadership group makes all the important decisions, all must follow, public dissent is squelched.
Some people may take the name of the leader or imitate the leader.
In a malevolent org. those that follow the leader's rules are complimented, those that dissent are told they are difficult or impolite, their opinions are dismissed as an attack, not acknowledged that they might have some validity.
(Excerpts from S M A R T (Stop Mind control And Ritual abuse Today Issue 29 - Nov. 1999
Link to comment
Share on other sites
krys
As far as building or sharpening critical thinking skills, put yourself in a position where you learn something new to you.
Puzzles of various types are also helpful.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
TheHighWay
First, I make an effort to clear my head of one-sided thinking. What I did initially that helped me break out of the TWI mind-clench was seek out completely opposing viewpoints. I listened to music that would not have been approved, I used words that had been forbidden, and I read a lot of things that would have been frowned-upon. Not because I was looking for new answers but just to clear my head of the one-sided dogma. That was a needed first step before I could figure out what I actually thought about things. I still do that today if I find my thinking getting a little skewed.
The second thing, is to look for the valid points of each opinion. Sometimes it takes a real effort to acknowledge that someone is making a good point when they seem to be spouting an opinion that is in complete opposition to my own. I am finding this tactic particularly helpful in trying to sort out the political issues we are grappling with today. I think that this is what our founding fathers did so well. They didn't all agree. They had some seriously opposing ideas. But they were all more interested in finding a middle ground that would advance everyone forward just a little bit, than trying to advance their own individual reputations and agendas. (Thank God)
I also think a healthy dose of skepticism is good. (not criticism or sarcasm) Just a willingness to ask the hard questions. (As someone posted: who has a dog in this hunt? Are they trying to sell me something and why? What do they stand to gain? What do they stand to lose? Are they willing to work toward a compramise or just seeking one-sided solutions?)
And finally, I think you have to have a high enough opinion of your own worth to stand up for yourself. We, as a society, seem so uncomfortable at times with self-advocacy. We seem uncomfortable with asking direct, to-the-point questions about things. We are afraid of looking harsh or angry; of being called "mean". So what? If something is going to impact my life I think I have the right to as full an understanding of all the details as possible, whether it makes you a little uncomfortable or not.
(edited for clarity)
Edited by TheHighWayLink to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
RumRunner: Yes, this really does need to sit outside "cult mentality." I really only started it in ATW because so many of us have had our critical thinking skills crushed by TWI. And because I wanted to get people thinking.
Critical thinking skills are essential to any good decision making.
And yes, children are good at asking "why?" to the annoyance of adults so that the adults want to shut the kids up. Better training of older children would be to encourage them to ask questions at specific times, and then to give them as complete an answer as possible and to encourage (guide) them to find out and dissect other answers for themselves ("find [6] different answers on the net; what do they have in common and what differs? Why? What does it show you about the author's POV?" etc)
So much can crush our critical thinking skills. A lot in the world at large is to do with media presentation, so that we see this person or that political party as goodies or baddies. My PoV as a Brit is sometimes considerably different from that of many Americans on a lot of international issues - it doesn't make either me or Americans right or wrong. Why might our PoVs differ? Probably a Chinese or a Zimbabwean would see things differently again. Maybe we're all right or all wrong. It depends what propaganda (okay, media reporting) we are subject to.
It's quite interesting sometimes to analyze advertisements, especially for similar products, and consider why one might "sell" better than another.
T-Bone, I like your thought of periodic maintenance and specially about re-calibrating.
And it's never shameful to change one's PoV, opinion, etc, if more information is found out. In fact, surely it's shameful to hang onto a previous opinion that is shown to be in error (how many adults really do still believe in Santa Claus, or did we not change our minds when later evidence disproved Santa's existence?). We're happy enough to do this in small things; why not big things as well?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
I think a big issue for some of us here - with regards to real critical thinking - is that we STILL don't want to let go of some of our more comfortable a-priori assumptions about life in general. I.E. - we still assume that the basic Biblical frame of God, Jesus Christ, the Devil, heaven and hell, etc. is reality.
Until we're willing to put it all on the table, all of our superstitions, feelings, intuitions, "faith", and whatever, we're just paying lip service to "critical thinking" and not really practicing it at all. Much like what we did with WayWorld dogma. We claimed to be "researching" and even practiced a form of some sort of scholarship, but we never ever questioned the basic tenets of Wierwillism. So what did we get out of it? Not much.
Likewise if we hang onto notions of an invisible, loving God and His superman Son, and then force all of our cranial imput through that filter, we're not thinking critically. No doubt it makes us feel good though...
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Twinky
And likewise, George, if we hang onto ideas that say there is no God.
We all start from a set of assumptions, prejudices, and backgrounds. We need to know what our own assumptions are, and be able to take that into account, revising same if necessary.
Recognising the starting point is significant in critical thinking, but to think that we don't have a starting point at all (as George seems to suppose) is a bit like being in the middle of a whiteout and not knowing which way the nearest safe place might be.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
geisha779
I don't think anyone here could accuse Dr. Francis Collins of not using critical thinking skills. . . this is the guy who mapped out human DNA. . . the Human Genome Project. . .an atheist for much of his adult life and one of the world's leading scientists. . . . is now a believer in Christ.
<object width="445" height="364"><param name="movie" value="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gHVQdlNaBo&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&border=1"></param><param'>http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gHVQdlNaBo&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&border=1"></param><param name="allowFullScreen" value="true"></param><param name="allowscriptaccess" value="always"></param><embed src="http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-gHVQdlNaBo&hl=en&fs=1&rel=0&border=1" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" allowscriptaccess="always" allowfullscreen="true" width="445" height="364"></embed></object>
If it is true that my thoughts are just a random bunch of chemical reactions. . . . . my brain and mind evolved by chance and an irrational process with no reason other than astronomical luck and some magical beating of insurmountable odds behind it. . . . why would I even trust them? They have no meaning. . . .nothing backs them up. . . . . You don't get rational from irrational. . . . rational thought did not evolve from an irrational process. . . . something causes our minds to be rational. . . our acts to be moral or immoral. . . . and our universe to be something from nothing. Something makes you. . . you. . .
If you want to believe it is chance. . . .luck. . . . the flying spaghetti monster. . . .or even aliens seeding the planet. . . . than you actually have way more faith than I do. . . .
It does not hurt to seriously question . . . . I don't want to live a lie. . . but, it also does not hurt to seriously and not dismissively consider. . . . no matter what our shared cult past is or isn't.
Edited by geisha779Link to comment
Share on other sites
George Aar
Indeed, and my original starting point was that of Joe Believer. My current position is simply that of agnostic (the traditional dictionary definition). That is, I don't suppose there to be something if there's no evidence of it. I also don't suppose that tthere's something to numerology, Buddhism, acupuncture, Big Foot sightings, flying saucers, or a whole litany of stuff that lots of us spend a whole lotta time chasing after.
If you think I'm terribly mistaken and in danger of hellfire (or worse), just give me some evidence. I'm coachable.
And of course, whatever our cause may be, we can find a champion to laud for his wisdom in accepting our beliefs now as his own. I think that would file under "appeal to authority" in the "logical fallacies" categories, no?
Link to comment
Share on other sites
cheranne
I thought this topic was on Critial Thinking Skills and how to get OUT of THE WAY
(hamster wheel life and be free)
I supppose for each person it IS differant depending on your desire. The first step
is the most important and that is to recognize TWI is NOT it.
Maybe in the beginning it was or seemed like a good thing to know the bible,but I did\
not sign up for what it really was in the longrun.
I still had the desire to KNOW God. Even after I went thru the I don't believe in "anything anymore" thing.
I now call myself a Humanitarian that believes in God.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.