Not to mention the ego of having their names put in some book according to the donations that people gave.
The aud was built before I got heavily involved, but when I learned of the book, what sprang to mind was this:
Matt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
I'm not knocking those who did give. It's probably because I heard about the book from cgeer, who during an SNS "let it slip" that he had been among the first to sign, because he had donated over $5,000. And at the time I was already appalled by the man's outrageous arrogance.
I also wondered about the people who had contributed towards the tabernacle (Ex 35, 36 and thereabouts), only few of whom are named but the emphasis is on the willing donation; of the provision God himself had made beforehand, when the people fleeing Egypt had "borrowed" jewellery from their neighbors.
...some more of those red flags that got ignored
Having said that, it was a beautiful auditorium / theatre / show place. And the seats were a jolly sight more comfortable than a hard church pew.
That was the crux of the whole thing - get your name in "the book" so everyone will know what you did. Furthermore, the absence of your name in "the book" will be a testament to what you didn't do for TWI. Oh the drama of it all.
Skyrider, the letter Kevlar rec'd wasn't about the auditorium. He was just comparing another letter that was pitching for donations. He can speak for himself if he comes back to this thread, but I think his 1972 date was correct. Note the groups on the albums that were sent out. Selah was long gone by 1982.
Skyrider, the letter Kevlar rec'd wasn't about the auditorium. He was just comparing another letter that was pitching for donations. He can speak for himself if he comes back to this thread, but I think his 1972 date was correct. Note the groups on the albums that were sent out. Selah was long gone by 1982.
Thanks Linda.
Uuuugh.......in connecting these two letters from wierwille, it just shows the deceptive tactics that wierwille employed all along.
Yes, I am NOW firmly in the camp that wierwille was a false teacher FROM DAY ONE...!!!!!!!
Skyrider, Linda Z is correct; it was 1972. Or thereabouts; I no longer have the letter, and I'm no longer sure of the exact date - it might have been 1973 when I got that stuff.
In all the years I was "in", I've never heard of anyone else receiving that letter and materials, and am wondering if I was "targeted" somehow because of my interest in music. Of course, I didn't go around asking, either.
I was on staff when the auditorium was built and dedicated. Actually, it wasn't called the VPW WOW Auditorium when it went up; it was called the Word Over the World Auditorium. VPW was adamant that his name not be included in its name. It was changed after his death. I don't remember exactly when, but I'm sure it was after I left HQ, which was in the spring of 1986.
I'm pretty sure VP was alive when the name was changed, although it might have been after he handed over the presidency to LCM. Memories change over time, of course; but I recalling hearing VP claim that he didn't want the name changed, but he was overruled. Right. <_<
I'm pretty sure VP was alive when the name was changed, although it might have been after he handed over the presidency to LCM. Memories change over time, of course; but I recalling hearing VP claim that he didn't want the name changed, but he was overruled. Right. <_<
George
I agree with Linda on this.
March 1985........The Word Over the World Auditorium opened. A few weeks later, vpw taught his last teaching at the auditorium on "The Hope."
May 1985..........Wierwille died on May 20, 1985
In the months to follow (1985).....then-current trustees renamed it Victor Paul Wierwille Word Over the World Auditorium.
In 1996 (?).......after martindale, with support from J. Reynolds the International Outreach Coordinator, declared "the word was over the world"......then the auditorium had to go thru another name change, thus Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium.
I remember the auditorium carrying VP's name as well, when he was still alive. I remember thinking at the time that that didn't jive with what was taught regarding such memorials - i.e. - that things shouldn't be named after those that are still living. And that, preferably, folks should be dead for at least 10 years before such memorials.
I also remember some blurb on a SNS tape where the trustees were talking about the choice of name and how they had to "twist his arm" to get VP to agree to having his name on the building.
Even as a deluded Wayfer, I remember thinking that the name was just a teensy bit on the self-serving side of the ledger...
Geo, people might have called it that where you were while VPW was still alive, but it was not named the VPW Word Over the World Auditorium until after his death.
And now for my 2-cents. My recollection is that it was called, "The Victor Paul Wierwille Word Over the World Auditorium. I think it was at Living Victoriously (1982) when the BOT with Wierwille as President announced that VP had asked them not to name it after him until after his death. The BOT still named it after him but agreed not to actually call it "The Victor Paul Wierwille...etc." until after his death. He died shortly after the official opening so most of us remember it carrying his name.
Geo, people might have called it that where you were while VPW was still alive, but it was not named the VPW Word Over the World Auditorium until after his death.
Nah, people didn't much call it anything where I was at the time (northern Minisoda)as I just don't remember it being much of a topic for discussion amongst the locals, but I definitely remember some sort of blurb on a SNS tape like I already mentioned.
How it all shook out in real life, I don't really know, or much less, care. But, for trivia's sake, I thought I should pipe up...
Nah, people didn't much call it anything where I was at the time (northern Minisoda)as I just don't remember it being much of a topic for discussion amongst the locals, but I definitely remember some sort of blurb on a SNS tape like I already mentioned.
How it all shook out in real life, I don't really know, or much less, care. But, for trivia's sake, I thought I should pipe up...
George,
Sounds like we had the same level of interest then and now. :) I do remember someone telling me this long story about not naming it after VP then adding his name, etc. It was all lost on me as I was new so I just kept eating the free cookies. Oh, the girl was really cute too so I let her go on. Ahh, to be a teenager again! :)
I remember someone, maybe Ralph D., stating that VPW had adamantly stated his name was never to place on anything at least while he was living. "So I guess he meant 'over my dead body!'" this individual joked.
So it gets built, VPW dies, and there goes his name on the building!
The claim was made by VP "The ministry desperately needs the Word Over the World Auditorium".
I beg to differ on that point. They could not fill it up for Sunday services and it was embarrasing. It became mandatory that if you lived within a certain radius (2 hour radius?) then you were expected to attend atleast one service a month. This was for Corps, but we were supposed to encourage whole branches to attend together. Of course it's not possible to force "dead wood" to attend, (oh, if only I had been dead wood) but twig coordinators, twig coordinator assistants, corps, etc. we all made the treck or as I like to call it "The Death March".
Think of all the ramifications if the auditorium wouldn't have been built. We would never have had the joy of watching Craig dance around in tights
I know that it got harder and harder for them to portray a "full auditorium" as time went on, (it became especially evident on big event weekends... they went from filling up the break-out rooms, to not opening those rooms, to not opening all of the balcony, to not allowing anyone to sit inthe balcony...) but does anyone know for sure if they ever had a hard time filling up the auditorium to begin with? I thought most of the sheep (er... faithful followers) were excited to attend SNS in the new digs? (But I was a total newbie then, so I didn't pay that much attention to such things.)
It became mandatory that if you lived within a certain radius (2 hour radius?) then you were expected to attend at least one service a month.
I'm pretty sure the radius was 250 miles. Thankfully I lived in Texas (and still do.) But for someone just inside that 250 miles, that would mean about a four hour trip each way. That would sure make for a long day, not to mention a couple tanks of gas, plus wear and tear on your 'nodebtmobile'.
Then as a final insult, you'd be required to listen to the same thing all over again on tape the next week.
I'm pretty sure the radius was 250 miles. Thankfully I lived in Texas (and still do.) But for someone just inside that 250 miles, that would mean about a four hour trip each way. That would sure make for a long day, not to mention a couple tanks of gas, plus wear and tear on your 'nodebtmobile'.
Then as a final insult, you'd be required to listen to the same thing all over again on tape the next week.
Speaking as someone who DID live just within that 250 mile radius... you have got it down exactly!
Going wasn't an option. First you could choose a weekend. Then they TOLD you which weekend everyone was going. Then you HAD to carpool with at least one other car.
Four hours there. Money for gas. Money for meals. Wear and tear on the car. Driving at speeds and over routes the leadership dictated. Hurry and get changed in the public bathrooms. Drop your casual clothes back in your car. Drop the kiddies off at their various locations and scurry over to the SNS. After it was over, you do the same in reverse, grabbing the kiddies, grabbing a burger, changing in the bathrooms. Then you hop in the car and drive another four hours home, knowing that your small children will be cranky for the next two days because they were up too late and had to snooze in the car. And that you will not only hear the the same topic taught at the next two fellowship meetings by your leadership, but you will hear the actual SNS all over again via tape next Sunday.
The more distance I get and critical thinking skills I develop again I start to see how so much of this is indoctrination or behavioral conditioning. It is marketed as helping people develop good "believer" habits, the 5 fundamentals, etc.
There is a difference between free learning and conditioning. The Word is meant to work from the inside out, from the heart directing the steps, yet in actuality it's all driven by a schedule, a weekly and monthly calendar, and a curriculum that is all geared towards establishing dependency on this group.
Sometimes when I read stuff on GSC i realize how very lucky we were to leave when we did. This is one of those things.. there was no mandatory twigs or branch meetings yet perse.. there was some encouragement(preasure) to come but not this mandated you will go on this date at this time etc.. but that is only becasue I think they hadn't gotten to the point that they were.. IT was certainly headed that way out west I imagine back east it was already beginning to be completely overbearing.
Four hours there. Money for gas. Money for meals. Wear and tear on the car. Driving at speeds and over routes the leadership dictated. Hurry and get changed in the public bathrooms. Drop your casual clothes back in your car. Drop the kiddies off at their various locations and scurry over to the SNS. After it was over, you do the same in reverse, grabbing the kiddies, grabbing a burger, changing in the bathrooms. Then you hop in the car and drive another four hours home...
Well, who knows,, THW, maybe we met.
When I was in rez, I spent a lot of time getting ready for SNS one way or another. At differing times, this might include making up vats of coffee, or wrapping burgers in foil, or preparing other stuff to hand out to people leaving.
At the time, I was impressed (though somewhat amazed) that people should have the dedication to drive so very far to come to SNS. And I was pleased that we could freely give coffee or burgers or whatever to such dedicated people.
Of course, now it's clear that it wasn't dedication but compulsion that brought those people. And a cup of coffee after the SNS was such miserable recompense for the cost in time and actual expenditure for people to get to SNS.
Anyway, FWIW the coffee and burgers that I put together for field folks were made with love and respect (on my part, anyway). And it was nice to see you, to see some fresh folk, even if some of you didn't for obvious reasons hang around for long.
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outintexas
I remember the Word Over the World Auditorium song by Way productions. :wacko:
waysider
When plans were first announced for construction of the auditorium, we were told to always refer to the structure by its full name . We were told that acronyms and abbreviations were unacceptably disr
Keith
I wasn't in TWI when the Auditorium was built. I left in 76 and came back for a very short while around '89. I won't go into the reasons returning, except that I was again studying the bible and did
penworks
The auditorium was still being built when I got to HQ in August 1984.
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Twinky
Not to mention the ego of having their names put in some book according to the donations that people gave.
The aud was built before I got heavily involved, but when I learned of the book, what sprang to mind was this:
Matt 6:1 Take heed that ye do not your alms before men, to be seen of them: otherwise ye have no reward of your Father which is in heaven. 2 Therefore when thou doest thine alms, do not sound a trumpet before thee, as the hypocrites do in the synagogues and in the streets, that they may have glory of men. Verily I say unto you, They have their reward. 3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth: 4 That thine alms may be in secret: and thy Father which seeth in secret himself shall reward thee openly.
I'm not knocking those who did give. It's probably because I heard about the book from cgeer, who during an SNS "let it slip" that he had been among the first to sign, because he had donated over $5,000. And at the time I was already appalled by the man's outrageous arrogance.
I also wondered about the people who had contributed towards the tabernacle (Ex 35, 36 and thereabouts), only few of whom are named but the emphasis is on the willing donation; of the provision God himself had made beforehand, when the people fleeing Egypt had "borrowed" jewellery from their neighbors.
...some more of those red flags that got ignored
Having said that, it was a beautiful auditorium / theatre / show place. And the seats were a jolly sight more comfortable than a hard church pew.
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Tzaia
That was the crux of the whole thing - get your name in "the book" so everyone will know what you did. Furthermore, the absence of your name in "the book" will be a testament to what you didn't do for TWI. Oh the drama of it all.
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Linda Z
Skyrider, the letter Kevlar rec'd wasn't about the auditorium. He was just comparing another letter that was pitching for donations. He can speak for himself if he comes back to this thread, but I think his 1972 date was correct. Note the groups on the albums that were sent out. Selah was long gone by 1982.
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skyrider
Thanks Linda.
Uuuugh.......in connecting these two letters from wierwille, it just shows the deceptive tactics that wierwille employed all along.
Yes, I am NOW firmly in the camp that wierwille was a false teacher FROM DAY ONE...!!!!!!!
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Kevlar2000
Hi,
Skyrider, Linda Z is correct; it was 1972. Or thereabouts; I no longer have the letter, and I'm no longer sure of the exact date - it might have been 1973 when I got that stuff.
In all the years I was "in", I've never heard of anyone else receiving that letter and materials, and am wondering if I was "targeted" somehow because of my interest in music. Of course, I didn't go around asking, either.
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GeorgeStGeorge
I'm pretty sure VP was alive when the name was changed, although it might have been after he handed over the presidency to LCM. Memories change over time, of course; but I recalling hearing VP claim that he didn't want the name changed, but he was overruled. Right. <_<
George
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skyrider
I agree with Linda on this.
March 1985........The Word Over the World Auditorium opened. A few weeks later, vpw taught his last teaching at the auditorium on "The Hope."
May 1985..........Wierwille died on May 20, 1985
In the months to follow (1985).....then-current trustees renamed it Victor Paul Wierwille Word Over the World Auditorium.
In 1996 (?).......after martindale, with support from J. Reynolds the International Outreach Coordinator, declared "the word was over the world"......then the auditorium had to go thru another name change, thus Victor Paul Wierwille Prevailing Word Auditorium.
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George Aar
I remember the auditorium carrying VP's name as well, when he was still alive. I remember thinking at the time that that didn't jive with what was taught regarding such memorials - i.e. - that things shouldn't be named after those that are still living. And that, preferably, folks should be dead for at least 10 years before such memorials.
I also remember some blurb on a SNS tape where the trustees were talking about the choice of name and how they had to "twist his arm" to get VP to agree to having his name on the building.
Even as a deluded Wayfer, I remember thinking that the name was just a teensy bit on the self-serving side of the ledger...
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Linda Z
Geo, people might have called it that where you were while VPW was still alive, but it was not named the VPW Word Over the World Auditorium until after his death.
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Broken Arrow
And now for my 2-cents. My recollection is that it was called, "The Victor Paul Wierwille Word Over the World Auditorium. I think it was at Living Victoriously (1982) when the BOT with Wierwille as President announced that VP had asked them not to name it after him until after his death. The BOT still named it after him but agreed not to actually call it "The Victor Paul Wierwille...etc." until after his death. He died shortly after the official opening so most of us remember it carrying his name.
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George Aar
Nah, people didn't much call it anything where I was at the time (northern Minisoda)as I just don't remember it being much of a topic for discussion amongst the locals, but I definitely remember some sort of blurb on a SNS tape like I already mentioned.
How it all shook out in real life, I don't really know, or much less, care. But, for trivia's sake, I thought I should pipe up...
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JustThinking
George,
Sounds like we had the same level of interest then and now. :) I do remember someone telling me this long story about not naming it after VP then adding his name, etc. It was all lost on me as I was new so I just kept eating the free cookies. Oh, the girl was really cute too so I let her go on. Ahh, to be a teenager again! :)
JT
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George Aar
Sounds like we fell prey to the same tactic for our indoctrination.
Hmmm, something else to hold against women? Nah, I've got enough already...
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Watered Garden
I remember someone, maybe Ralph D., stating that VPW had adamantly stated his name was never to place on anything at least while he was living. "So I guess he meant 'over my dead body!'" this individual joked.
So it gets built, VPW dies, and there goes his name on the building!
WG
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taxicab
The claim was made by VP "The ministry desperately needs the Word Over the World Auditorium".
I beg to differ on that point. They could not fill it up for Sunday services and it was embarrasing. It became mandatory that if you lived within a certain radius (2 hour radius?) then you were expected to attend atleast one service a month. This was for Corps, but we were supposed to encourage whole branches to attend together. Of course it's not possible to force "dead wood" to attend, (oh, if only I had been dead wood) but twig coordinators, twig coordinator assistants, corps, etc. we all made the treck or as I like to call it "The Death March".
Think of all the ramifications if the auditorium wouldn't have been built. We would never have had the joy of watching Craig dance around in tights
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TheHighWay
I know that it got harder and harder for them to portray a "full auditorium" as time went on, (it became especially evident on big event weekends... they went from filling up the break-out rooms, to not opening those rooms, to not opening all of the balcony, to not allowing anyone to sit inthe balcony...) but does anyone know for sure if they ever had a hard time filling up the auditorium to begin with? I thought most of the sheep (er... faithful followers) were excited to attend SNS in the new digs? (But I was a total newbie then, so I didn't pay that much attention to such things.)
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Tzaia
It was pretty full the one time I attended something there. It was close to the opening. There was valet parking.
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outintexas
I'm pretty sure the radius was 250 miles. Thankfully I lived in Texas (and still do.) But for someone just inside that 250 miles, that would mean about a four hour trip each way. That would sure make for a long day, not to mention a couple tanks of gas, plus wear and tear on your 'nodebtmobile'.
Then as a final insult, you'd be required to listen to the same thing all over again on tape the next week.
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TheHighWay
Speaking as someone who DID live just within that 250 mile radius... you have got it down exactly!
Going wasn't an option. First you could choose a weekend. Then they TOLD you which weekend everyone was going. Then you HAD to carpool with at least one other car.
Four hours there. Money for gas. Money for meals. Wear and tear on the car. Driving at speeds and over routes the leadership dictated. Hurry and get changed in the public bathrooms. Drop your casual clothes back in your car. Drop the kiddies off at their various locations and scurry over to the SNS. After it was over, you do the same in reverse, grabbing the kiddies, grabbing a burger, changing in the bathrooms. Then you hop in the car and drive another four hours home, knowing that your small children will be cranky for the next two days because they were up too late and had to snooze in the car. And that you will not only hear the the same topic taught at the next two fellowship meetings by your leadership, but you will hear the actual SNS all over again via tape next Sunday.
Now wasn't that a blessing?
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chockfull
The more distance I get and critical thinking skills I develop again I start to see how so much of this is indoctrination or behavioral conditioning. It is marketed as helping people develop good "believer" habits, the 5 fundamentals, etc.
There is a difference between free learning and conditioning. The Word is meant to work from the inside out, from the heart directing the steps, yet in actuality it's all driven by a schedule, a weekly and monthly calendar, and a curriculum that is all geared towards establishing dependency on this group.
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leafytwiglet
Sometimes when I read stuff on GSC i realize how very lucky we were to leave when we did. This is one of those things.. there was no mandatory twigs or branch meetings yet perse.. there was some encouragement(preasure) to come but not this mandated you will go on this date at this time etc.. but that is only becasue I think they hadn't gotten to the point that they were.. IT was certainly headed that way out west I imagine back east it was already beginning to be completely overbearing.
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Twinky
Well, who knows,, THW, maybe we met.
When I was in rez, I spent a lot of time getting ready for SNS one way or another. At differing times, this might include making up vats of coffee, or wrapping burgers in foil, or preparing other stuff to hand out to people leaving.
At the time, I was impressed (though somewhat amazed) that people should have the dedication to drive so very far to come to SNS. And I was pleased that we could freely give coffee or burgers or whatever to such dedicated people.
Of course, now it's clear that it wasn't dedication but compulsion that brought those people. And a cup of coffee after the SNS was such miserable recompense for the cost in time and actual expenditure for people to get to SNS.
Anyway, FWIW the coffee and burgers that I put together for field folks were made with love and respect (on my part, anyway). And it was nice to see you, to see some fresh folk, even if some of you didn't for obvious reasons hang around for long.
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Ham
If nobody else said it..
"thank you".
:)
I always wondered why the burgers, even wrapped in thin foil were good..
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