The Way's "Good Old Days" -> Deluded Nostalgia

[geisha779]

I have to agree with Twinky. . . . T-Bone you are very bright and your posts are thought provoking and a must read. . . . I really mean that. Yes, I have read IfD Conflict of Faith.. . . . if you liked that book you might like Respectable Sins (Confronting the Sins We Tolerate) by Jerry Bridges. . . . not quite as difficult, but a good read.

I studied 19th Century British history T-Bone. . . . not really a career builder. . . . but, I love it. It is an odd thing to be so interested in, but there you have it.

Twinky. . . . NT Wright is the Bishop of Durham!! Anglican. . . . He is also known as Tom Wright or affectionately as New Testament Wright. He is generally considered one of the world's leading scholars on New Testament History. I know he was at Oxford for years. . . . at Merton, but he did something at Westminster Abbey. Smart guy. I love to listen to him speak.

I listened to a talk he gave with Anthony Flew. . . . now, THAT guy was fascinating to listen to. . . .I think he died, maybe? Brilliant, brilliant man. . . a philosopher and one of the biggest known atheists of the 20th century. . . . he said that atheism was the logical choice without evidence for a creator. He actually knew CS Lewis fairly well, but was never convinced about God.

Until a few years ago when he became a theist. It would be similar to Richard Dawkins announcing he changed his mind and now believes in God. Big controversy. He wrote a book. . . .

There is a God: How the World's Most Notorious Atheist Changed His Mind. . . Richard Dawkins said he is senile. . . seemed okay when I listened to him.

There are so many good people to read. . . . but, NT Wright really makes you think about things. Hope you get a chance to check him out. . . . you might even be able to go hear him speak somewhere. :) Lucky. . . I miss England!! My kid is going next year. . . . maybe I will too.

I wanted to add that given my sad history. . . . I have to be careful that I am not just adopting a spiritual pilgrimage lived by another when I read Christian authors. Is it my own understanding? Am I using critical thinking? Is that my experience with God. . . . is that what I understand from scripture. . . . do I really grasp what is being said or am I passively agreeing and adopting it as my own perspective? Lot of work really! :)

It is wonderful to learn from each other. . . but, I do think God works with us as individuals too.

Edited October 20, 2009 by geisha779

[T-Bone]

Thanks Geisha - and I'll add Bridges' book to the list from your other post.

[Goey]

Yeah,

I yearn to be back in good old days when Wierwille was boffing naive and vunerable little corps girls in the Motor Coach,

Martindale was prancing around in leotards and the "WORD" was moving over the World.

Ah yes, the good old days when the vein popping, saliva spewing foot chewings led us to love, humility and a deeper

understanding of the Accuracy of the Word.

Oh how I wish I was a WOW again, driving a 20 year old car and answering to a 19 year old kid who was ready to drink

the Kool Aid.

Makes me feel warm and fuzzy all over.

[Ham]

hmm..

"be warmed and filled"..

[DontWorryBeHappy]

DELUDED NOSTALGIA.............that sums it up in 2 aptly chosen, well considered words, imho!...........write on penworks!....................peace.

Edited October 24, 2009 by Don'tWorryBeHappy

[spectrum49]

My take on the "good old days" is that each individual sees them as from the beginning of their relationship with TWI.

Gradually, however, people with any brains at all continue to become wiser about the whole TWI thing over time. And as they do, things SEEM to become less and less WONDERFUL, making the "early years" seem like they were better than the present ones.

Some take quite a while to leave TWI. After having done so, eventually (and this can take quite some time) they must admit that the only reason ANY OF IT ever seemed so darned nice was only because of their level of ignorance at the time.

If they actually had known what they were getting into, they would not even have become involved AT ALL!

Remember the old addage, "Hindsight is 20-20"? I believe that fits here.

But now for "the truth" (as I see it):

Ec 7:10 Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not enquire wisely concerning this.

According to this, supposing that ANY TIME IN THE PAST (the former days) was better than the present is not thinking wisely.

If we are truly living vitally, then things should generally be improving. We are getting wiser all the time when we stay involved and keep our eyes and ears open.

Let us all remember that each day we live is one day closer to the return of Jesus Christ. That alone makes each day BETTER than the ones before. At least that's the way I see it.

In the words of Carly Simon, in his song Anticipation (1971), "... these are the good old days."

SPEC

:)

[penworks]

My take on the "good old days" is that each individual sees them as from the beginning of their relationship with TWI.

Gradually, however, people with any brains at all continue to become wiser about the whole TWI thing over time. And as they do, things SEEM to become less and less WONDERFUL, making the "early years" seem like they were better than the present ones.

Some take quite a while to leave TWI. After having done so, eventually (and this can take quite some time) they must admit that the only reason ANY OF IT ever seemed so darned nice was only because of their level of ignorance at the time.

If they actually had known what they were getting into, they would not even have become involved AT ALL!

Remember the old addage, "Hindsight is 20-20"? I believe that fits here.

But now for "the truth" (as I see it):

Ec 7:10 Say not thou, What is the cause that the former days were better than these? for thou dost not enquire wisely concerning this.

According to this, supposing that ANY TIME IN THE PAST (the former days) was better than the present is not thinking wisely.

If we are truly living vitally, then things should generally be improving. We are getting wiser all the time when we stay involved and keep our eyes and ears open.

Let us all remember that each day we live is one day closer to the return of Jesus Christ. That alone makes each day BETTER than the ones before. At least that's the way I see it.

In the words of Carly Simon, in his song Anticipation (1971), "... these are the good old days."

SPEC

:)

For me, the interest I had over time became the research of TWI and to me there's nostalgia for that which is driving the creation of the TWI offshoots.

At the risk of tooting my own horn (which I'll go ahead and do as all my writer friends tell me to do), there is a new topic that Pawtucket started for discussion of my article posted on the Home page here.

The name of the post contains the name of the article, Nostalgia for TWI Biblical Research Raises Questions.

Enjoy!

Charlene

Edited November 7, 2009 by penworks

[OldSkool]

Nostalgia is the flip side of denial.

[Twinky]

For other ignoramuses: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/N._T._Wright. Geisha - shoulda known, or at least checked Wiki before asking the obvious! I'll check out some of his work...sometime.

Shows how much notice I take of other religious groups. Still trying to think through and read what seems appropriate. Reading all of the Bible without PFAL-colored glasses is a decent start.

[soul searcher]

...a major problem in this country - as I see it - of overzealous evangelizing and often reckless and offensive application of Bible verses to current-day events. This sort of interpretation denies the historical context of the verses and drags them into the 21st century, which in my view, is inappropriate.

That is so true. And it's what turned me off to religion for many years.

The Tebow organization espouses a far-right theology. Its bottom line: Only those who assent to its version of Christianity will avoid eternal punishment.

According the beliefs of a fundamentalist friend of mine, about 2/3 of the human race (all non-Christians) will not make it to heaven simply because they don't accept Jesus as their savior.

Unfortunately, until more Christians become aware of the history of own their religion...and how these various Christ-focused movements influenced each other, this sort of religious bigotry will continue. It's the stuff "Holy wars" were/are made of. It's the grist for dividing humanity, not uniting or comforting people.

How true. The second greatest commandment is to love your neighbor as yourself. "All the law and the prophets hang on these two commandments" (Matthew 22:40). It's right there in the gospels, but my guess is that about 2/3 of all Christians aren't even aware of this (including my wife, who is a devout Catholic).

And it wouldn't hurt to become a little more educated about other religions, too. We might be surprised at what things they have in common.

One quick example that comes to mind is from J.D. Salinger's short story "Franny", in which the protaginist describes the similarities between "praying incessantly" and the concept of nirvana in Zen Buddhism. She talks about the book, The Way of the Pilgrim and how a Russian peasant is on a quest to discover what the Bible means when it says to "pray incessantly". He learns that one way is to simply repeat the basic Jesus prayer ("Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me") over and over in your head until it becomes internalized. After a while you don't have to think about it anymore and becomes "synchronized" with your heartbeat. Of course, it doesn't have to be that specific prayer. (And whether one should be praying to Jesus or to God is whole other discussion.)

Anyway, nice post, Pen.

[Bolshevik]

Nostalgia is the flip side of denial.

ha!

[Nathan_Jr]

On 9/21/2009 at 8:55 AM, penworks said:

I disagree. Here's why.

I understand how some people may think The Way was good “in the old days” and somehow “got off track” in later years. But I take issue with this line of thinking. I call it deluded nostalgia: a wistful or excessively sentimental yearning for return to or of some past period or irrecoverable condition. What exactly is that condition people are craving? I was involved from 1971-1987 and I don’t crave any of it. But I figure I’d pitch in my two cents here.

Frankly, I think it appears to be nostalgia for small fellowships with rock music or old hymns “corrected to be accurate” with Way doctrine, simple teachings (I guess), and camaraderie with others who thought like we did, and learning “what the Bible says.” On the surface, these things seem fairly harmless. But when I really think about the “old TWI days,” and these activities, I come up with some concerns:

1. The simplistic idealism that we could save the world with cut and dry Bible answers

2. The lack of mature dealings in the world. I was addressed as a child and kept from growing up while in the Corps and afterwards,

3. The gross neglect of my critical thinking faculty

4. The fact we were supposed to sell the PFAL class to people in order for VP to approve of our lives

5. The issue of whether we were “helping people” by using tools belonging to VP’s brand of fundamentalism

6. As far as I know, some still think they helped people with “the Word.” But what exactly is “The Word?” It’s very vague to me. My understanding is that when a phrase is used, there’s a definition for it somewhere. I don’t know of one for “The Word.” It is a phrase thrown around as if we all know what it means. This reminds me of the fairytale about the Emperor’s new clothes. The fact was: Emperor was not wearing any clothes. I don’t think anyone knows what The Word is.

7. Suffice it to say here, the usual explanation by TWI people and former TWI people for what “The Word” is goes something like this: you have to “use certain keys to research to discover what the original Word was.” Whose keys to research? How come we so readily accepted VP’s which he took from various other people who were fundamentalists? If it were so simple to know “The Word,” how come so many diverse interpretations persist?

But back to the good old days. Let’s say the “good old Way days” were good after all, although this is hard for me to fathom. What exactly is being referred to by this claim? IMO, VP created some sense of community with some people for awhile, but what was that based upon? The way I see it, it was based on an agreement that VP’s teachings were God’s Word, on the commitment to the common cause of VP’s delusion of “moving The Word over the World,” and on a simple love for other people - as long as they obeyed what VP said was The Word. If they didn’t, at the very least they were not as spiritual as we were; at the very worst they were “born of the seed of the devil.”

Let’s not forget, however, that this conditional camaraderie came at a price: It was held together by a patriarchal system fraught with deception and power struggles, not to mention rampant sexual, fiscal, and emotional abuse.

In my view, wishing for “the good old days of The Way” denies the nature of the group itself – a fundamentalist, narrow-minded, anti-Christian movement. Why do I say it is anti-Christian? Because people were used as a means to an end. What was the end? Believe that what VP taught was the truth. Evangelize. Sell PFAL classes. Behave according to what The Way leadership dictated.

Nostalgia for the old days also seems to deny the fact that from its inception, the cult was engineered by V.P. Wierwille, who claimed, like Paul in the New Testament, that he heard an audible voice from a monotheistic God adopted from another culture from thousands of years ago (or the voice of Jesus, as in Paul’s case) that no one else heard. This raises all sorts of issues too complex to get into here I think.

While I met many good people whose kindness made me feel loved, during my TWI years, VP’s teachings, such as telling me I was “more than a conqueror” did not help me resolve problems I brought into The Way with me. For awhile, it engendered a positive attitude in me but it did not produce a healthy self image or tolerance, understanding and compassion for others who might not agree with what I believed. I think the doctrines in many instances only instilled a good deal of denial about myself, the good in the world, other cultures, and denial about what it means to be human.

When I first took PFAL, at 18 years old, I certainly was gullible to The Way’s “answers” but the human brain is not even fully developed until 23 or 24 years old so that’s part of this scenario, too. But I also readily admit that I consciously turned a deaf ear to people who warned me not to get involved.

Not only did I make grave errors in judgment when getting involved with TWI, but I was seduced by big fat claims about the nature of the system I was in. It claimed to be a biblical research ministry but it is extreme fundamentalism. I suggest more of us get informed not only about how cults function but what fundamentalism is and the history of its development. It’s not only a way of interpreting the bible but a way of existing in the world.

Mmmmph

[oldiesman]

On 9/21/2009 at 9:55 AM, penworks said:

I disagree. Here's why.

I understand how some people may think The Way was good “in the old days” and somehow “got off track” in later years. But I take issue with this line of thinking. I call it deluded nostalgia: a wistful or excessively sentimental yearning for return to or of some past period or irrecoverable condition. What exactly is that condition people are craving? I was involved from 1971-1987 and I don’t crave any of it. But I figure I’d pitch in my two cents here.

Frankly, I think it appears to be nostalgia for small fellowships with rock music or old hymns “corrected to be accurate” with Way doctrine, simple teachings (I guess), and camaraderie with others who thought like we did, and learning “what the Bible says.” On the surface, these things seem fairly harmless. But when I really think about the “old TWI days,” and these activities, I come up with some concerns:

1. The simplistic idealism that we could save the world with cut and dry Bible answers

2. The lack of mature dealings in the world. I was addressed as a child and kept from growing up while in the Corps and afterwards,

3. The gross neglect of my critical thinking faculty

4. The fact we were supposed to sell the PFAL class to people in order for VP to approve of our lives

5. The issue of whether we were “helping people” by using tools belonging to VP’s brand of fundamentalism

6. As far as I know, some still think they helped people with “the Word.” But what exactly is “The Word?” It’s very vague to me. My understanding is that when a phrase is used, there’s a definition for it somewhere. I don’t know of one for “The Word.” It is a phrase thrown around as if we all know what it means. This reminds me of the fairytale about the Emperor’s new clothes. The fact was: Emperor was not wearing any clothes. I don’t think anyone knows what The Word is.

7. Suffice it to say here, the usual explanation by TWI people and former TWI people for what “The Word” is goes something like this: you have to “use certain keys to research to discover what the original Word was.” Whose keys to research? How come we so readily accepted VP’s which he took from various other people who were fundamentalists? If it were so simple to know “The Word,” how come so many diverse interpretations persist?

But back to the good old days. Let’s say the “good old Way days” were good after all, although this is hard for me to fathom. What exactly is being referred to by this claim? IMO, VP created some sense of community with some people for awhile, but what was that based upon? The way I see it, it was based on an agreement that VP’s teachings were God’s Word, on the commitment to the common cause of VP’s delusion of “moving The Word over the World,” and on a simple love for other people - as long as they obeyed what VP said was The Word. If they didn’t, at the very least they were not as spiritual as we were; at the very worst they were “born of the seed of the devil.”

Let’s not forget, however, that this conditional camaraderie came at a price: It was held together by a patriarchal system fraught with deception and power struggles, not to mention rampant sexual, fiscal, and emotional abuse.

In my view, wishing for “the good old days of The Way” denies the nature of the group itself – a fundamentalist, narrow-minded, anti-Christian movement. Why do I say it is anti-Christian? Because people were used as a means to an end. What was the end? Believe that what VP taught was the truth. Evangelize. Sell PFAL classes. Behave according to what The Way leadership dictated.

Nostalgia for the old days also seems to deny the fact that from its inception, the cult was engineered by V.P. Wierwille, who claimed, like Paul in the New Testament, that he heard an audible voice from a monotheistic God adopted from another culture from thousands of years ago (or the voice of Jesus, as in Paul’s case) that no one else heard. This raises all sorts of issues too complex to get into here I think.

While I met many good people whose kindness made me feel loved, during my TWI years, VP’s teachings, such as telling me I was “more than a conqueror” did not help me resolve problems I brought into The Way with me. For awhile, it engendered a positive attitude in me but it did not produce a healthy self image or tolerance, understanding and compassion for others who might not agree with what I believed. I think the doctrines in many instances only instilled a good deal of denial about myself, the good in the world, other cultures, and denial about what it means to be human.

When I first took PFAL, at 18 years old, I certainly was gullible to The Way’s “answers” but the human brain is not even fully developed until 23 or 24 years old so that’s part of this scenario, too. But I also readily admit that I consciously turned a deaf ear to people who warned me not to get involved.

Not only did I make grave errors in judgment when getting involved with TWI, but I was seduced by big fat claims about the nature of the system I was in. It claimed to be a biblical research ministry but it is extreme fundamentalism. I suggest more of us get informed not only about how cults function but what fundamentalism is and the history of its development. It’s not only a way of interpreting the bible but a way of existing in the world.

What did those "good old days" mean to me?  In a few words:  God answering prayers for the desperate help that I needed and prayed for at the time, including being born again; and greater understanding and appreciation for the scriptures.