Personally I have observed that people put up with things that they don't like, or are even harmful to them because they balance the perceived benefits against the perceived downside.
People put up with jobs that they don't like because they need the insurance; with abusive spouses because they don't believe they can support their kids alone; with high taxes because they send the kids to a "good" school.
People stay involved in TWI as long as the benefits appear to outweigh the problems. It doesn't matter that the "benefits" may appear to us who are outside the system to be composed of equal parts wishful thinking and b^ll$h!t, if they think that they are getting "The Word" like it hasn't been taught since the First Century, what's a little yelling and spitting? If they think that their spouse will leave them, what's a little false doctrine?
People will put up with a lot if they think that they're getting something out of it.
As far as all the exhortation from the old days, Oakspear, that is why I think the exhortations to "toughen up", "be fully committed", or "simply stand" are the most damaging.
Folks are thinking they are or have stood for God but all they really succeed in doing is keeping their place in line while awaiting the slaughter. (Feel free to supply your own slaughterhouse mind pictures.)
As far as all the exhortation from the old days, Oakspear, that is why I think the exhortations to "toughen up", "be fully committed", or "simply stand" are the most damaging.
Folks are thinking they are or have stood for God but all they really succeed in doing is keeping their place in line while awaiting the slaughter. (Feel free to supply your own slaughterhouse mind pictures.)
The more sold out you are to the Corp and the Word of God, the freer you are! Like a dulos branded with the Way's cattle brand . . .
Personally I have observed that people put up with things that they don't like, or are even harmful to them because they balance the perceived benefits against the perceived downside.
People put up with jobs that they don't like because they need the insurance; with abusive spouses because they don't believe they can support their kids alone; with high taxes because they send the kids to a "good" school.
People stay involved in TWI as long as the benefits appear to outweigh the problems. It doesn't matter that the "benefits" may appear to us who are outside the system to be composed of equal parts wishful thinking and b^ll$h!t, if they think that they are getting "The Word" like it hasn't been taught since the First Century, what's a little yelling and spitting? If they think that their spouse will leave them, what's a little false doctrine?
People will put up with a lot if they think that they're getting something out of it.
Well said....
Yet, I think that for many of them......their resume sucks in the real world AND THEY KNOW IT.
There is NO WAY that those cabinet guys/dept coordintors could find anything comparable to the cushy desk position that their bu++ sits in. Forget the meager salary that they get....they scoff at "the world" anyway. Besides, they have rationalized this thing a thousand ways since Sunday and say "they serve at the spiritual epicenter of the world for God Almighty."
Furthermore, they've hazarded their lives climbing to these top rungs on twi's ladder.....and they ain't about to give it up. At least, not those who've been kissing the twi-signet ring for decades. The minions around them only prove how hard it is to scale the summit of slime.
Some people like others to do the thinking for them. It cuts out risk-taking and dealing with reality.
Well said....
Yet, I think that for many of them......their resume sucks in the real world AND THEY KNOW IT.
I agree with Bolshevik and Skyrider, while sticking with my own comments.
There's many reasons why people stay in.
While wayfers often talked about how we were in a research ministry, how few actually did any research? It was easier to let PFAL substitute for brain cells.
I think Skyrider's comment definitely applies to those on the payroll.
I think for some lower on the totem pole, it is also about identity and self confidence or lack there of.
Remember the old affirmation:
"I am what the Word of God says I am
I will be what the Word of God says I will be
I can do what the Word of God says I can do
Therefore I do."
Not necessarily a bad thing on it's own, depending on how you read the Bible, but when you've been in TWI for decades and you've heard both explicitly and implicitly that the Word is the Ministry and the Ministry is the Word, then you've got a much narrower scope of who you are and who you can be and what you can do.
Plus there are folks in still that got involved when they were beginning their adulthood and are well into their years now with little defining them outside of TWI meetings, classes, programs, and "study" material. Hopes and dreams outside of TWI have faded and replaced.
Plus what you guys said...
It's a hard thing to leave when you're comfortable and not threatened. In that respect LCM was the best thing to happen to the Way. It was a lot easier for people to leave with him and his clones around.
It's not just the TWI either. People put up with a lot worse than just lame fellowships, disjointed, stupid teachings, and "WOW mobiles" wasting their life away. A lot worse.
The very latest from Way Prod.
Did you know that all of their songs were written in the stars, Waysider?
... when you've been in TWI for decades and you've heard both explicitly and implicitly that the Word is the Ministry and the Ministry is the Word, then you've got a much narrower scope of who you are and who you can be and what you can do.
Indeed! I hope this web site can open some former members' eyes (and current ones) about other options for a good, ethical, and productive life. Self confidence is the first step...I know it was for me.
I don't think it's as simple as has been stated here.
We can't know, exactly, a person's reasons for doing things they do, even the harmful ones that we think are the most idiotic things one could do.
Why did we stay? I stayed because I spent 15 or so minutes standing up in front of some preacher promising to hang with the fellah next to me who was making the same kinds of promises and then they pronounced us stuck with each other no matter what stupid thing the other does.
I wasn't willing to break those promises, it simply wasn't a question. And I did so knowing a little bit of the mess I was agreeing to regarding twi; I got involved in 1982 and married in 1984, so I was just getting started in the knowing of messes catagory.
Then........I saw what happened to people who left without their spouse, what happened to their babies and families. Hell yeah, keeping my vows was a piece of cake compared to the potential ruin from the alternative. "look at what happened to her when she left....no thanks ~!" Besides I was pretty fond of the guy. I kept those vow's of "til death parts us" until death did part us. A year later I found a way for our children and I to make different decisions regarding twi, but only because my marriage vows were no longer more of my priority. By then 16 years of life had gone on, not to even mention two children who were in the equation.
Now, I fully understand things are differant now in twi, different name plaques on the walls, so on and blah and perhaps we can say that those still hanging out in the joint have seen the last 10 years worth of disclosure and mess and "for cryin out loud oughta know better now".
I submit that we can't know others' lives, what goes on in a family in the privacy of their home, what fears may still lurk, what promises might have been made, regardless of any "oh shi+" before, during or after.
The writing may be on the wall now that twi has been properly exposed and duly hung out there for all to see. But in each person's heart and each family's dynamics, we really can't see.
Why did each of us stay? I don't know for you or you anymore than you might for me. Well now you do, but I digress.
I know for us when we left it was easier because our only ties to the ministry were friends. Neither of us had other family members involved.
I also know My Dear sweetie was very worried I would not go with him if he left. Fortunately I was beginning to start to really question the Way and was more than happy to part company.
But I wonder when I read this where i would be if he had not wanted to leave or if he had left and I had stayed. Would I have endured POP and the Martindale crap??? I am not sure.
Also another thought and I am not directing this at anyone but posing it as something to consider... If you were kicked out have you ever wondered if you would have left if they hadn't kicked you out?
I am pretty sure we would have been kicked out eventually because I was a non Corps spouse.. but If we had stayed and were not pushed to leave I wonder if I would have left on my own.
IT is infinitely easier to sit on this side of the fence and judge when you only know the barest of details. IT is quite another to be saddled with all the considerations a person must have as they try to make their way in the world. Leaving family and friends or any combination there of is at the best of times difficult but just for a moment imagine how difficult it must be in certain situations.
Remember, quite a large percentage of people who left went into splinters.. this to me speaks volumes about how truly difficult it is to leave the lifstyle(such as it is) of TWI.
Remember, quite a large percentage of people who left went into splinters.. this to me speaks volumes about how truly difficult it is to leave the lifstyle(such as it is) of TWI.
Yeah, like getting divorced and continuing to live in the same house together.
Yup, we truly don't know. In our case, we also had extended family that was a huge consideration, even if I did only have to keep my own personal vows to my husband.
And yes we lost them when we left, sadly; their decision.
I've wondered if we might have gotten the boot to a$$ eventually and whether we might have left intact as a family. I like to think so, but I can not say 100%. And I have no way, again, of knowing for sure, but I suspect that I would have been the first out the door if a choice had to be made, given that scenerio, as well.
Saddens me that life is tough enough anymore, trying to put happy marriages and families together without so much outside and undo influence. Sometimes it's just too much and too late to remedy, much less resolve or restore to health. Then to have to make decisions 'pros'; together with yet distinctly independant of.
Yikes I do not miss that day to day struggle and moment to moment wondering about the dropping hammer. Sometimes it is easier to comply and fake it until other options are to be gained in some instances.
I thank God I don't have to make those steps every day anymore, nor do so many others. But at what cost?
Bolshie I have a question for you because you probably understand the difficulty more than most here and feel free to ignore the question if it is too personal...
How did you come to leave?
I have never read your whole story but that is not a surprise I have barely scratched the surface of the posts in GSC.
But were you already married and did your parents leave or just your In laws.
Sorry but was it difficult? or what triggered it all? I know you have not been out for very long and you grew up in TWI so I feel like you have a real unique view of it all.
I know from my own self the decision to leave was difficult and we worried the entire time we were leaving even for the first few months we were out... We of course left before the proverbial dang hit the fan.
But we certainly worried that God would be angry that we had walked away from him when we were walking away from TWI.
We hadn't but we were so mired in the tWI think that it made a difficult situation 100 times more difficult.
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taxicab
Don't worry if you can't find your retemory cards, just STAY YOUR MIND!
JeffSjo
Well the fact that they stay may be influenced by the fact that TWI is the one that taught them the values they hold to. Rosie Frankenspinmeister!?
Oakspear
Personally I have observed that people put up with things that they don't like, or are even harmful to them because they balance the perceived benefits against the perceived downside. People put up
JeffSjo
Well the fact that they stay may be influenced by the fact that TWI is the one that taught them the values they hold to.
Rosie Frankenspinmeister!?
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Oakspear
Personally I have observed that people put up with things that they don't like, or are even harmful to them because they balance the perceived benefits against the perceived downside.
People put up with jobs that they don't like because they need the insurance; with abusive spouses because they don't believe they can support their kids alone; with high taxes because they send the kids to a "good" school.
People stay involved in TWI as long as the benefits appear to outweigh the problems. It doesn't matter that the "benefits" may appear to us who are outside the system to be composed of equal parts wishful thinking and b^ll$h!t, if they think that they are getting "The Word" like it hasn't been taught since the First Century, what's a little yelling and spitting? If they think that their spouse will leave them, what's a little false doctrine?
People will put up with a lot if they think that they're getting something out of it.
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JeffSjo
As far as all the exhortation from the old days, Oakspear, that is why I think the exhortations to "toughen up", "be fully committed", or "simply stand" are the most damaging.
Folks are thinking they are or have stood for God but all they really succeed in doing is keeping their place in line while awaiting the slaughter. (Feel free to supply your own slaughterhouse mind pictures.)
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Bishop
The more sold out you are to the Corp and the Word of God, the freer you are! Like a dulos branded with the Way's cattle brand . . .
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JeffSjo
They promise you liberty, but they themselves are the servants of corruption.
(added in editing)
It's not a quote on my part but I'm betting most Wayfers know where that one has been written.
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newlife
Oakspear....BINGO....you said it all!
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Bolshevik
Some people like others to do the thinking for them. It cuts out risk-taking and dealing with reality.
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waysider
Self delusion is not freedom.
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frank123lol
No offense but I think they(those that are in) are brain dead,period..
Maybe,somehow,a lucd thought will slip in,heck it happened to me.
All because loy said not to go on the internet,and look at waydale....
Innies there are possibilities...The way is not the only ones teaching the "word".
You might find out,gasp,oh,my,They might be misleading you.
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skyrider
Well said....
Yet, I think that for many of them......their resume sucks in the real world AND THEY KNOW IT.
There is NO WAY that those cabinet guys/dept coordintors could find anything comparable to the cushy desk position that their bu++ sits in. Forget the meager salary that they get....they scoff at "the world" anyway. Besides, they have rationalized this thing a thousand ways since Sunday and say "they serve at the spiritual epicenter of the world for God Almighty."
Furthermore, they've hazarded their lives climbing to these top rungs on twi's ladder.....and they ain't about to give it up. At least, not those who've been kissing the twi-signet ring for decades. The minions around them only prove how hard it is to scale the summit of slime.
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Oakspear
I agree with Bolshevik and Skyrider, while sticking with my own comments.
There's many reasons why people stay in.
While wayfers often talked about how we were in a research ministry, how few actually did any research? It was easier to let PFAL substitute for brain cells.
I think Skyrider's comment definitely applies to those on the payroll.
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waysider
The very latest from Way Prod.
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lindyhopper
I think for some lower on the totem pole, it is also about identity and self confidence or lack there of.
Remember the old affirmation:
"I am what the Word of God says I am
I will be what the Word of God says I will be
I can do what the Word of God says I can do
Therefore I do."
Not necessarily a bad thing on it's own, depending on how you read the Bible, but when you've been in TWI for decades and you've heard both explicitly and implicitly that the Word is the Ministry and the Ministry is the Word, then you've got a much narrower scope of who you are and who you can be and what you can do.
Plus there are folks in still that got involved when they were beginning their adulthood and are well into their years now with little defining them outside of TWI meetings, classes, programs, and "study" material. Hopes and dreams outside of TWI have faded and replaced.
Plus what you guys said...
It's a hard thing to leave when you're comfortable and not threatened. In that respect LCM was the best thing to happen to the Way. It was a lot easier for people to leave with him and his clones around.
It's not just the TWI either. People put up with a lot worse than just lame fellowships, disjointed, stupid teachings, and "WOW mobiles" wasting their life away. A lot worse.
Did you know that all of their songs were written in the stars, Waysider?
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waysider
Do tell.
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penworks
Indeed! I hope this web site can open some former members' eyes (and current ones) about other options for a good, ethical, and productive life. Self confidence is the first step...I know it was for me.
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Shellon
I don't think it's as simple as has been stated here.
We can't know, exactly, a person's reasons for doing things they do, even the harmful ones that we think are the most idiotic things one could do.
Why did we stay? I stayed because I spent 15 or so minutes standing up in front of some preacher promising to hang with the fellah next to me who was making the same kinds of promises and then they pronounced us stuck with each other no matter what stupid thing the other does.
I wasn't willing to break those promises, it simply wasn't a question. And I did so knowing a little bit of the mess I was agreeing to regarding twi; I got involved in 1982 and married in 1984, so I was just getting started in the knowing of messes catagory.
Then........I saw what happened to people who left without their spouse, what happened to their babies and families. Hell yeah, keeping my vows was a piece of cake compared to the potential ruin from the alternative. "look at what happened to her when she left....no thanks ~!" Besides I was pretty fond of the guy. I kept those vow's of "til death parts us" until death did part us. A year later I found a way for our children and I to make different decisions regarding twi, but only because my marriage vows were no longer more of my priority. By then 16 years of life had gone on, not to even mention two children who were in the equation.
Now, I fully understand things are differant now in twi, different name plaques on the walls, so on and blah and perhaps we can say that those still hanging out in the joint have seen the last 10 years worth of disclosure and mess and "for cryin out loud oughta know better now".
I submit that we can't know others' lives, what goes on in a family in the privacy of their home, what fears may still lurk, what promises might have been made, regardless of any "oh shi+" before, during or after.
The writing may be on the wall now that twi has been properly exposed and duly hung out there for all to see. But in each person's heart and each family's dynamics, we really can't see.
Why did each of us stay? I don't know for you or you anymore than you might for me. Well now you do, but I digress.
:)
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George Aar
Inertia
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leafytwiglet
Well said Shellon,
I know for us when we left it was easier because our only ties to the ministry were friends. Neither of us had other family members involved.
I also know My Dear sweetie was very worried I would not go with him if he left. Fortunately I was beginning to start to really question the Way and was more than happy to part company.
But I wonder when I read this where i would be if he had not wanted to leave or if he had left and I had stayed. Would I have endured POP and the Martindale crap??? I am not sure.
Also another thought and I am not directing this at anyone but posing it as something to consider... If you were kicked out have you ever wondered if you would have left if they hadn't kicked you out?
I am pretty sure we would have been kicked out eventually because I was a non Corps spouse.. but If we had stayed and were not pushed to leave I wonder if I would have left on my own.
IT is infinitely easier to sit on this side of the fence and judge when you only know the barest of details. IT is quite another to be saddled with all the considerations a person must have as they try to make their way in the world. Leaving family and friends or any combination there of is at the best of times difficult but just for a moment imagine how difficult it must be in certain situations.
Remember, quite a large percentage of people who left went into splinters.. this to me speaks volumes about how truly difficult it is to leave the lifstyle(such as it is) of TWI.
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waysider
Yeah, like getting divorced and continuing to live in the same house together.
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Shellon
Yup, we truly don't know. In our case, we also had extended family that was a huge consideration, even if I did only have to keep my own personal vows to my husband.
And yes we lost them when we left, sadly; their decision.
I've wondered if we might have gotten the boot to a$$ eventually and whether we might have left intact as a family. I like to think so, but I can not say 100%. And I have no way, again, of knowing for sure, but I suspect that I would have been the first out the door if a choice had to be made, given that scenerio, as well.
Saddens me that life is tough enough anymore, trying to put happy marriages and families together without so much outside and undo influence. Sometimes it's just too much and too late to remedy, much less resolve or restore to health. Then to have to make decisions 'pros'; together with yet distinctly independant of.
Yikes I do not miss that day to day struggle and moment to moment wondering about the dropping hammer. Sometimes it is easier to comply and fake it until other options are to be gained in some instances.
I thank God I don't have to make those steps every day anymore, nor do so many others. But at what cost?
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Bolshevik
How many that stay actually believe twi's stuff?
The world was in darkness, until Wierwille believed and brought us the light . . .
Why do so many insist that others should believe this?
People are generally selfish. Making others believe what they do makes them feel better. Leaving would mean they are admitting to being wrong.
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waysider
Very true.
Quite embarrassing to admit you've been wrong for the last 20, 30. 40 years.
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Bolshevik
A snowball effect?
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leafytwiglet
Bolshie I have a question for you because you probably understand the difficulty more than most here and feel free to ignore the question if it is too personal...
How did you come to leave?
I have never read your whole story but that is not a surprise I have barely scratched the surface of the posts in GSC.
But were you already married and did your parents leave or just your In laws.
Sorry but was it difficult? or what triggered it all? I know you have not been out for very long and you grew up in TWI so I feel like you have a real unique view of it all.
I know from my own self the decision to leave was difficult and we worried the entire time we were leaving even for the first few months we were out... We of course left before the proverbial dang hit the fan.
But we certainly worried that God would be angry that we had walked away from him when we were walking away from TWI.
We hadn't but we were so mired in the tWI think that it made a difficult situation 100 times more difficult.
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