Splinter Group Top Man: The Perks

[GrouchoMarxJr]

My experience is that they try to act honest, kind, etc. because they don't really know how to be that way. They still take far more than they give; there is still a high sense of entitlement; and honesty with them will get you ejected or called possessed.

I agree wholeheartedly with Tzaia's remarks. Sense of entitlement indeed!...kings within their own kingdoms...the mog mindset...the head table syndrome...measuring success like any business would...sales, dollars, perks and their own lifestyle...footwashers? Servants? ministers?...HA! They are the bastard sons of VP Wierwille, those who seek self glory through their pretend humility. Those who seek profit from the pure message of Christ. Simon the sorcerer...When you see them coming, lock your doors and hide your daughters.

Unfortunately, Wierwille's con lives on...thanks to those who had it "within them" to grab the money making whore by her ears and ride her into gloryland. They learned their lessons well.

[Ham]

I've heard here claim when to*ns*nd speaks, it sounds EXACTLY like the way, in the mid-seventies..

NOTHING has changed. At all.

I don't quote the bible much.. but this seems pretty relevant..

I Corinthians 6:

verse 9 through 12:

I have written to you in my letter not to associate with sexually immoral people-

not at all meaning the people of this world who are immoral, or the greedy and swindlers, or idolaters.

In that case you would have to leave this world. But now I am writing you that you must not associate

with anyone who calls himself a brother but is sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer,

a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

I don't see how it agrees with christian ethics to go to their churches, their feasts, give them money.. buy their "works"..

support them..

I mean.. known fornicators, idolaters and swindlers.. just doesn't make sense to me..

and for the most part.. there is no *real* repentance or regret. Just damage control.

[Ham]

sexually immoral or greedy, an idolater or a slanderer,

a drunkard or a swindler. With such a man do not even eat.

How many of these "characteristics of a faithful minister" did vic exhibit? Or Loy, Geero, Panar*llo, L*nn, To*nsend, etc. etc..?

vic qualified for five out of six. The idolatry issue, well, that's more about one's beliefs, isn't it.. rather vague..

of course the "mainstream" groups would give him a six out of six..

I think that is one of the main "perks" of being mog in a splinter group.. is the possibility of even being a "leader" in SOMETHING..

no reputable organization would have them..

[Ham]

In my experience most splinter group leaders are in it because they think they're doing the right thing, helping people. They try to be especially careful to be honest, kind, etc because they have seen where the other path leads.

As far as "helping" people.. could you be a little more specific? Now some of them might be honest and all.. but generally, have they really "gotten over" it? The way experience that is.. I would interview them. Ask a few questions, calmly..

1. How many times did you use your authority in the group to receive sexual favors?

2. How many times did you accept offers for sexual favors based on who you were in the organization?

3. How much MONEY did you receive in "love offerings" from the organization, provided to you based on your position, or "function"?

4. If you were married, how many times did you engage in adultery?

5. How many "believers" did you slander, calling them "possessed", "unfaithful" or some such?

that's just starters..

I'd give them about forty five seconds on the first. During the stumbling and stuttering, I'd ask the second..

I won't paint them ALL evil and such, there are one or two I personally know who could honestly answer "zero" to all the questions.

point is: for the most part, they are in no position to really "help" people.. in my opinion.

Some of these guys.. maybe I shouldn't say..

[waysider]

One of the newer "splinters" has declared its purpose to be fulfillment of "The Corps Principles".

How can that possibly help anyone?

Here's a little something from their site:

*******************************

The S.O.W.E.R.S. program is full time 24/7.

Generally, 4 hours work/ 4 hours study per day.

Various challenging program opportunities and projects.

During session, students will be provided room and board.

Students will need to provide for their own needs beyond room and board.

Program to be administered on an honor basis. Any volunteer may be dismissed at any

time and/or program cancelled [sic] at sole discretion of those charged with oversight.

To Fearlessly Pursue an Understanding of these Principles:

1. Acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.

2. Receive training in the whole Word so as to be able to teach others.

3. Physical training making your physical body, the vehicle of communication of

the Word, as vital as possible.

4. Practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the Ministry.

5. Go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest and need.

***************************

Source: My link

Lots of "red flags", IMO

Edited September 20, 2009 by waysider

[Broken Arrow]

Unfortunately, Wierwille's con lives on...thanks to those who had it "within them" to grab the money making whore by her ears and ride her into gloryland. They learned their lessons well.

Where do you think Wierwille learned it? The con stuff I mean? Did he have a mentor, or did he receive it by "revelation"?

[waysider]

Where do you think Wierwille learned it? The con stuff I mean? Did he have a mentor, or did he receive it by "revelation"?

I realize your question is directed at Groucho but I'll throw in my 2cents.

I think he was a natural. He may have learned to hone his craft by observing and studying other con-men, but I think he was naturally inclined to follow this course. Whether his natural inclination was a product of "nature or nurture" is a whole other ball of wax. Maybe it was a bit of both. I'm quite convinced, at this point, that his whole "revelation" charade was nothing more than a theatrical gimmick that he developed using the definitions he found in Bullinger's writings. (ie: WOK, WOW, DOS, etc.)

Edited September 20, 2009 by waysider

[RumRunner]

Unfortunately, Wierwille's con lives on...thanks to those who had it "within them" to grab the money making whore by her ears and ride her into gloryland. They learned their lessons well.

Groucho you old cuss - the way you write makes me think I'd like to see a Hunter S Thompson writeup of TWI

[skyrider]

I'm quite convinced, at this point, that his whole "revelation" charade was nothing more than a theatrical gimmick that he developed using the definitions he found in Bullinger's writings. (ie: WOK, WOW, DOS, etc.)

And......as the class series developed, wasn't wierwille's "advanced class revelation" [i.e. myth of the six million, the 13th tribe, the illuminati, marxist minstrels, etc].....wasn't wierwille a subscriber of the Liberty Lobby? some conspiracy theory agenda?

And......didn't wierwille state that he thought the U.S. fought on the wrong side during WW II..?? Was wierwille's german roots showing bias? Anti-semitic?

[waysider]

The question has been raised (paraphrasing)----"Was Wierwille mentally ill or simply a con-man?"

I see no reason to discount the possibility he was both a con-man AND mentally ill.

He lived long enough to see the horrific consequences of his con game and seemed to display no genuine remorse.

In fact, the only remorse we see being attributed to him, whether real or contrived, is his remorse for his own self and his inability to maintain his facade unscathed for posterity. He knew it was a con yet he seemed to feel no sympathy for his victims.

It's engraved in stone ----"I wish I were the man I knew to be."

What was he regretting? That his con hadn't been more successful? That his scheme might have been exposed? What does that statement really even mean?

Remorse for himself ----That's the only remorse he felt.

Edited September 20, 2009 by waysider

[Bishop]

One of the newer "splinters" has declared its purpose to be fulfillment of "The Corps Principles".

How can that possibly help anyone?

Here's a little something from their site:

*******************************

The S.O.W.E.R.S. program is full time 24/7.

Generally, 4 hours work/ 4 hours study per day.

Various challenging program opportunities and projects.

During session, students will be provided room and board.

Students will need to provide for their own needs beyond room and board.

Program to be administered on an honor basis. Any volunteer may be dismissed at any

time and/or program cancelled [sic] at sole discretion of those charged with oversight.

To Fearlessly Pursue an Understanding of these Principles:

1. Acquire an in-depth spiritual perception and awareness.

2. Receive training in the whole Word so as to be able to teach others.

3. Physical training making your physical body, the vehicle of communication of

the Word, as vital as possible.

4. Practice believing to bring material abundance to you and the Ministry.

5. Go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest and need.

***************************

Source: My link

Lots of "red flags", IMO

Ya, but they're not fiscally dishonest. They don't have full time ministers canvassing the country or what not. The guy that started that probably owns more than a million bucks in farmland . . . .

[waysider]

The guy that started that probably owns more than a million bucks in farmland . . . .

How is that relevant?

Ever consider how much Wierwille's fleet of motorcycles was worth?

Didn't stop him from demanding more, more, more.

Edited September 20, 2009 by waysider

[Ham]

Ya, but they're not fiscally dishonest. They don't have full time ministers canvassing the country or what not. The guy that started that probably owns more than a million bucks in farmland . . . .

How do you know? The fiscally dishonest part that is. Not an accusation.. but I thought da way of old was fiscally honest..little did I know..

and the farmland. Can he afford to keep it? Taxes and all.. what kind of "production" is being done there? Does he rent it out?

does he need free labor to make ends meet? Pay *workers* in terms of hot dogs and millet?

Is it now deeded to a tax exempt non-profit group?

they aren't exactly "above board" by any sense of the word I can come up with..

[Bishop]

How is that relevant?

Ever consider how much Wierwille's fleet of motorcycles was worth?

Didn't stop him from demanding more, more, more.

ya, you have a point. still though, this group's the exception. most group leaders don't earn any money.

[waysider]

How else can I say this?

Building a "ministry" on a set of principles that has proven to be flawed is just plain wrong, especially if it involves magical thinking mumbo-jumbo.

The only one I can find myself agreeing with is number five.

5.Go forth as leaders and workers in areas of concern, interest and need.

At least that's generic enough to apply to non-religious efforts.

[leafytwiglet]

ya, you have a point. still though, this group's the exception. most group leaders don't earn any money.

So what! .. most of us here and probably you too... have been twig coordinators, branch coordinators or area coordinators with no pay in fact we payed(Abundant Sharing ) so to speak for the so called privilege... because we thought we were serving God.....

Not receiving pay is no indication of truth or honesty for that matter. And receiving pay is no indication they are bad.

what is at the heart of it all is the stealing money from the believers and using it for nefarious reasons, all the while telling them it is to spread God's word.

The SOWERS Group may or may not be wicked but since they continue to teach the lies that VP taught and are using the backs of the young people to do manual labor just as TWI did... it brings their whole "Ministry" into question.(In my mind)

I would wonder what they use their peoples Abundant Sharing for... Who is ultimately helped?

what charitable acts do they perform? VP used to make fun of churches doing charitable acts... to me I should have seen that for the truly RED FLAG it was.

Sorry Bishop NO offense intended just some thoughts I had while reading everyone's posts

and Ham I am finally understanding your outrage with the SOWERS. It seems it has taken me a bit to catch up. I sometimes get lost in the lies of What I was told TWI was versus the reality of what it was.

Sometimes when I learn a new aspect of the deceit of TWI it makes my heart ache.. because what so many of us thought we were doing was in actuality not what we really were doing.

[Ham]

over all, I've been pretty calm about it all..

I'd just like a few answers. Of course, the questions just continue to pile up..

[Bishop]

How do you know? The fiscally dishonest part that is. Not an accusation.. but I thought da way of old was fiscally honest..little did I know..

and the farmland. Can he afford to keep it? Taxes and all.. what kind of "production" is being done there? Does he rent it out?

does he need free labor to make ends meet? Pay *workers* in terms of hot dogs and millet?

Is it now deeded to a tax exempt non-profit group?

they aren't exactly "above board" by any sense of the word I can come up with..

I don't agree with the whole mission of that group and all but I really don't think anyone is making money off it.

It's a 401©3 non-profit so the money that goes into it only pays for the program. I think doug donated a piece of land to build the original house on, but there wasn't enough material donated to pay for it to be built so they didn't end up using it. As far as slave labor . . . My understanding was that they couldn't find enough work for them to do. I think they had to help neighbors build fences and stuff to keep busy. I don't think there was any actual farm work invovled. Either way though, I don't think 4 hours a day of work by unskilled and semi-motivated teenagers adds up to that much.

No way to know the motivations for sure, but i'd guess that the whole program is designed with the purpose of passing on traditions (passing on the word to the next generation). And seeking approval for one's life by building a community of likeminded people (moving the word).

Also, I've talked to Victor and he's really a humble and kind fellow. Nothing like his grandfather. He seems very genuine. More of a follower than a leader.

[Ham]

the grandson. V2p2 or whatever yall call him.

he is agreat man of God, and a great person in general. He is one of the most loving, caring, kindest people I have ever met. I heard him yell only once or twice in ten months, and that as because he needed to get someone's attention. I am damn proud to consider him a friend. When it comes to teh word he knows his stuff and tries his best to live a Godly lifestyle. BUT! he does not shove it down anyones throat, he doesnt think he is the end all be all authority on all things God, he is very humble, respectful, and someone who i will aggressively defend. I am not a violent person, however, if you want to make any personal attacks against him, you had best not let me know your true identity. I am willing to fight over comments made about him.Trust me, you really dont want a ....ed off redneck knockin' at your door. Somje people in the sowers program will claim they have seen me me angry. Well, they havent. My intentions here are not to fight though, so lets keep everything respectful and decent.

Humble.. a "great man of god"?

that's the FIRST description one of the "followers" attribute to him..

where did he get that from?

v2p2 has no CLUE of what happened in the old ministry.. gramps is a HERO to him. Stolen works are his heritage.. I really feel sorry for the kid.

where did he get THOSE ideas? That the corps program was a *great* success.. that the ministry was like a theme park, before the *bad* people took it over..

unbelievable..

[Bishop]

Humble.. a "great man of god"?

that's the FIRST description one of the "followers" attribute to him..

where did he get that from?

v2p2 has no CLUE of what happened in the old ministry.. gramps is a HERO to him. Stolen works are his heritage.. I really feel sorry for the kid.

where did he get THOSE ideas? That the corps program was a *great* success.. that the ministry was like a theme park, before the *bad* people took it over..

unbelievable..

I called him humble, that's just an objective observation. I didn't call him a mog or whatnot. I'm not a follower of anyone . . . don't throw me in that camp.

[Ham]

I think it borders on child abuse..

name your kid after a drunken, abusive, thieving, plagiarizing sex fiend.. train him to think gramps was some kind of hero..

tell him "preach da verd, victah.."

its really disturbing to me..

gramps left a trail of spiritually damaged women, and men too..

pa and *uncle* mac really knew better.. or I wish they did..

I just asked a few questions.. "what are you doing any bit different".. just running another slip-shod, make it up as you go piece of dang that's gonna damage people the same as they did in the "good old days"?

what kind of safeguards have you built into the program..

what kind of accountability do you have, other than to your puffy little self..

are you going to have "lead" and "rodeo school" type activities where people are physically damaged? Have to "renew" their minds to get "healed" or something like that?

What recourse does a participant have, if someone "in charge" makes untoward advances, innapropriate comments, abusive behavior? Just send them off in the night?

That is the way, it was..

we wanna go back to "the good old days".. you might want to rethink that a few times..

I called him humble, that's just an objective observation. I didn't call him a mog or whatnot. I'm not a follower of anyone . . . don't throw me in that camp.

I'm not throwing you into that camp. That is a piece of information you might need..

right out of the starting gate.. "he's a great manogawd"..

Humble? Maybe as long as you agree with him.. I dunno..

Does he KNOW *his* people are calling him a Man of God?

Does he approve? Disapprove?

more questions..

[Bishop]

I think it borders on child abuse..

name your kid after a drunken, abusive, thieving, plagiarizing sex fiend.. train him to think gramps was some kind of hero..

tell him "preach da verd, victah.."

its really disturbing to me..

gramps left a trail of spiritually damaged women, and men too..

pa and *uncle* mac really knew better.. or I wish they did..

I just asked a few questions.. "what are you doing any bit different".. just running another slip-shod, make it up as you go piece of dang that's gonna damage people the same as they did in the "good old days"?

what kind of safeguards have you built into the program..

what kind of accountability do you have, other than to your puffy little self..

are you going to have "lead" and "rodeo school" type activities where people are physically damaged? Have to "renew" their minds to get "healed" or something like that?

What recourse does a participant have, if someone "in charge" makes untoward advances, innapropriate comments, abusive behavior? Just send them off in the night?

That is the way, it was..

we wanna go back to "the good old days".. you might want to rethink that a few times..

I'm not throwing you into that camp. That is a piece of information you might need..

right out of the starting gate.. "he's a great manogawd"..

Humble? Maybe as long as you agree with him.. I dunno..

Does he KNOW *his* people are calling him a Man of God?

Does he approve? Disapprove?

more questions..

He's just a decent guy who's been deceived by some cooky people. I think he's doing better than most have in the same kind of situation. As far as the program goes . . . most of the stuff you brought up just arn't issues. They're just a small group of young people living in rural MS hanging out listening to old teachings and studying the Bible. There's no ministry, no LEAD, no one to lead, nothing really odd. Just the teachings are odd. They only listen to them a few nights a week anyways. The rest of the time they study on their own. I heard at least one guy that came up with very unique conclusions during his study time and no one seemed too bothered by it . . . .

[Bolshevik]

uh, sounds like a typical modern twi "campus fellowship" . . . just sayin' . . .

[Ham]

He's just a decent guy who's been deceived by some cooky people

so somebody finally admits it..

You know he graduated Cumma Sum Laude or something like that..

he should be in GRAD SCHOOL.

Apparently the "kooky people" don't exactly have his best interests in mind..

[Bishop]

so somebody finally admits it..

You know he graduated Cumma Sum Laude or something like that..

he should be in GRAD SCHOOL.

Apparently the "kooky people" don't exactly have his best interests in mind..

I think he gets paid a stripend . . . Like $12 a week or something. Maybe they think it's competitive pay . . .