Kizka- Hi and welcome, I hope you find the community here in greasespot cafe as theraputic as I have. I can fully believe that you have had these things happen while in TWI. I saw enough of it when I joined TWI, later on the WOW field and as a believer pretty much up until I left. In several cases I reported about them- little was done. The really wicked thing was how even when transgressors were punished the leaders still practiced it in secret using a cloak of spirituality.
As you say God will sort them out in the end.
In the meantime I hope you find peace and complete healing/wholeness "sozo"
I am not sure if it will help you, or not, to know that IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT but it was part of a pattern of behavior that was widely practiced in TWI. It was nothing that you did, or did not, do. Just that you are female.
You have been a member for quite a while but have only recently posted, so no doubt you have read a lot of the miserable tales that have been posted here. Well done on finding the courage to start posting. It'll help you root out some of the damage that's been done in your head.
I wish all the best for you. I hope you have the support of a safe circle of friends to help you continue to sort things out.
It seems like a wise thing for you to be able to say that you may still feel a little prone to falling for guys who give you the old "We are of God" line. Did you really mean,"I never put up any resistance if he tells me he is a 'godly' person?"
Wierwille used it.
My former splinter group leaders utilized that same sentiment to get ten young women to make lifetime commitments to him.
And I'm sure that plenty of clergy from many different types of groups have used that sentiment to take advantage of folks, even if it in some cases did not lead to sexual exploitation.
Thank you everyone for the warm welcome and kind responses. You seem like a great group of people and I look forward to getting to know you better. In response to JeffSjo's question:
It seems like a wise thing for you to be able to say that you may still feel a little prone to falling for guys who give you the old "We are of God" line. Did you really mean,"I never put up any resistance if he tells me he is a 'godly' person?"
I realize in my last two relationships this was done to me, even though my instincts were screaming NO. The whole time I was with both, there was a strong tug of war between how I really felt and the "God's will" trap. In the end I left both and was drained by the experience. Reading this site and other people's experiences made me understand what I was doing. To be exact, if someone tells me our sexual relationship is of God, even if I have been resisting it, it has the effect of catapulting me into the relationship. The reason I think it is happening, is because as a teenage girl I decided this is how to belong to a family.
I wonder how many unmarried teenage girls went to the Way sex class, that I believe was intended for married couples? I did, but don't remember much about it at this point, except there was some soft porn in it. Anyone else remember it?
Thank you everyone for the warm welcome and kind responses. You seem like a great group of people and I look forward to getting to know you better. In response to JeffSjo's question:
I realize in my last two relationships this was done to me, even though my instincts were screaming NO. The whole time I was with both, there was a strong tug of war between how I really felt and the "God's will" trap. In the end I left both and was drained by the experience. Reading this site and other people's experiences made me understand what I was doing. To be exact, if someone tells me our sexual relationship is of God, even if I have been resisting it, it has the effect of catapulting me into the relationship. The reason I think it is happening, is because as a teenage girl I decided this is how to belong to a family.
I wonder how many unmarried teenage girls went to the Way sex class, that I believe was intended for married couples? I did, but don't remember much about it at this point, except there was some soft porn in it. Anyone else remember it?
Thank you everyone for the warm welcome and kind responses. You seem like a great group of people and I look forward to getting to know you better. In response to JeffSjo's question:
I realize in my last two relationships this was done to me, even though my instincts were screaming NO. The whole time I was with both, there was a strong tug of war between how I really felt and the "God's will" trap. In the end I left both and was drained by the experience. Reading this site and other people's experiences made me understand what I was doing. To be exact, if someone tells me our sexual relationship is of God, even if I have been resisting it, it has the effect of catapulting me into the relationship. The reason I think it is happening, is because as a teenage girl I decided this is how to belong to a family.
I wonder how many unmarried teenage girls went to the Way sex class, that I believe was intended for married couples? I did, but don't remember much about it at this point, except there was some soft porn in it. Anyone else remember it?
I think that in one sense you are no different than most people in that you are attracted to certain things that may not be good for us.
But the added aspect in your case of being suckered by people who hypocritically use their self-righteousness to victimize you in God's name gives these turds a whole other level of accountability before the Lord that makes their eventual reward especially painful.
But I hope you come to terms with this thing before it bites you again kizka.
And even though it may not be necessary, I suppose it can't hurt to say that I am happily taken and have every intention of not screwing that up because of any such possible foolishness.
hi kizka. i'm sorry to meet yet another child messed up by the way international's "unofficial" practice and standard of raping pillaging and plundering whatever "leadership" felt they had a "right" to, and i am sorry to say that i am someone that is quite angry about it all and that i have found out that there aren't many people that are angry about it and that actually think the anger is a sign that there's something wrong with me, so as a sort of warning or something just don't let anybody know if it bothers you much, and i'd say send me a private message or an email but i disabled those things here after being told how to "fix" myself one too many times. welcome and beware that this is the internet and that not everybody has escaped as much as they want to believe or want everybody else to believe. be careful.
I have to agree with much of what brainfixed said. Just as anywhere else, but maybe on the internet especially, folks are not often what they seem. I am guessing since you have been a member here for a while that this fact has not escaped you. Heck, I have heard stories of even people pretending to be one gender while seeking relationships with their own gender. And no matter what one thinks of relationships or their own choice of gender preference it seems obvious to me that dishonesty is not a healthy place to start a relationship of any kind.
I think that your first post was very brave. The folks that have had the most impact on me since I came here had the courage to share their own stories without much in the way of pulling any punches. And I think many TWI trained predators may see a woman who admits to certain patterns as you have as a possible mark, I would hope that posting at GSC with your anonymity in place may provide you with a certain safe distance from folks who may try to play you. At least it gives you the chance to fully consider a post or private message before responding in any manner at all, which you have the right to not respond to any overtures of any kind if you wish to not respond.
Let me just say that if any man at all has tried to contact you thinking to start any relationship that you already know is unhealthy for you as you have stated plainly, that I am embarrassed a little for us all. And if any woman has contacted you privately in order to warn you off of continuing this thread that there may well be good reasons and personal ones at that for their warnings.
But when I first saw your post I thought that this thread may be a good opportunity for both women and men to discuss the folly concerning our own personal relationships that TWI may have built into us. I know for certain that as a young man that I was attracted to other young women who professed Godliness but also had a certain sexual edge to them and their relationships without the necessary love and commitment. So it seems to me that even us men may have the same kind of unhealthy patterns that you have described from your own perspective.
But I already know for certain that you are not the only one with the issues that you share with us. And it was very brave IMO of you to be up front with us concerning some of your issues.
But without honest participation from any of the gals and guys that I know could really relate to your situation it is unfortunately inevitable that even an outstanding topic such as this thread will come to nothing out here in broad daylight where we can all see just what is happening. And I hope that for you Kizka, that the things that may be going on behind the scene are not troublesome for you.
:) Jeff, as you know this issue is very important for me to discuss and not take lightly or with any dismissive tone whatsoever; it's the reality for so many women, sadly.
One of the reasons I HAD to get out of twi was the lead pervert sidled up to me and reminded me my then 16 year old daughter was "almost ready for him", leaving no doubt whatsoever of his intent. Unfortunately I did not take the action I would today if some sexually abusive sonovabi+ch made such a comment to me where one of my daughters was concerned. I'd probably be writing this from some prison library if they let me have the privelege.
This issue of women feeling like they have to be pawns of spirituality where men are concerned is overdue to be dealt with, addressed and stopped where possible. What can be done on a daily basis, perhaps, I don't know. As a mother of daughters all I know to do is tell them these kinds of stories, give them the tools to feel strengthened in their own right in church or any other place where men might want to use their bodies for such abuse and misuse in the "name of God".
Kizka, I agree with Jeff, your post(s) have been very brave and I applaud you for the strength to disclose something so private and personal about yourself. For having the courage to say "it happened to me"; that does take an insurmountable act of bravery and honesty and trust of the readers here.
For all but one year during our time in TWI, I was in a pretty strong marriage, thus not being one of their targets. (this has not always been the norm, I know that, it just was for me) While I experienced a few remarks and/or suggestive comments, I somehow knew that they knew my marriage was one of fidelity and if they wanted to persue any of their fool behavior further, they'd have a large and very pis*ed off husband up their asz. In fact, he did have to confront a time or two, expressing our marriage as a reminder and it was left as "yeah, I'd never mess with YOUR wife" and they didn't.
Until he died.
At that time I was on my own and the men in the fellowship(s) said they would be my head, they would see to my needs, they would take care of me. I was able to avoid any such confrontation, for the most part, except and until the comment about my oldest daughter that was a blazing neon flag to GTFO and I did, only 2 months later as I could figure it all out.
The dynamics that make us who we are are profound and men who profess to be of God learn to recognize those dynamics. Somehow it's as if any childhood abuse screams from our person and says something to them that reads "She will do anything I say". Somehow they have honed their ability, however misplaced or incorrect, but assumed, to feel comfortable taking information we might have disclosed and using it against us.
Classic abuse of power to which so many fall victim if only because of fear of further dismissal, retribution, fall from the grace of God or whatever s/he percieves as truth, given ones background, how persuasive the current liar is or other pressure we might never know of.
Jeff, your sharing your own experiences puts a man's view to things, which is apreciated and welcomed by any that might assume anything.
My oldest daughter, mentioned at beginning of post, seemed to be looking for family when her dad died; missing totally that she still had her mama and sister and extended loved ones at her disposal. She so badly needed to hear comfort and acceptance and consolation, looking for it in local gangs mostly. If the lead pervert had not made his comment to me, might she have been in a perfect vulnerable position to be his next victim? Thankfully we'll never know. And our family was about as "normal" as one can get; no abuse in the home, no violence, there was more than enough love and kindness and acceptance.
I add that to suggest that it's not just the dynamics of our backgrounds, not just because of our history, not necessarily because we seem to wear some victim flag; it's about power and control and abusing of same.
I have to agree with you Shellon on every point of yours that I happen to be intelligent enough to recognize.
It is all about power and control and abusing of same.
I guess for me here at GSC all I can do is support anyone who tries to bring this touchy and overdue topic up for discussion.
For me, it is bad enough to see a man who has no conscience concerning playing women for whatever he can get from them. But when I see a ministry where the systematic abuse was sooo bad that even your sixteen year old daughter was being set up to sate the piggish lust of these supposed men of God I get a little stirred up too.
As a young man I can definitely remember the pull of a pretty and flirtatious young woman. But in your case we are talking about a TWI leader scum-sucking bottom feeder who felt enough confidence in his ability to manage people that he actually asked you....her momma.... if she "was ready" for him.
I keep forgetting the name you gave me for this guy..... I will ask you again later I suppose. This guy absolutely must become a card carrying member of my permanent sh!t list. And even though that list will ultimately come to nothing most likely I really, really believe that this type of TWI leader deserves to be remembered for the evil things that they have done.
One of the reasons I HAD to get out of twi was the lead pervert sidled up to me and reminded me my then 16 year old daughter was "almost ready for him", leaving no doubt whatsoever of his intent. Unfortunately I did not take the action I would today if some sexually abusive sonovabi+ch made such a comment to me where one of my daughters was concerned. I'd probably be writing this from some prison library if they let me have the privelege.
And, of course, you'd be the one that was labelled pozzezzed.
Dunno where you found the self-control not to cause him permanent damage.
Yeah, no kidding, Twinky. I would be the fault of whatever happened. There had also been some conversations about her recent behavior ( going MIA for days, defiance, drugs) that I knew were her reactions to her dad's death. So, the 'you have to put that child out' was close and I knew it. His comment was not a huge shock to me, really. I, by that time, also had known about Martindale's actions for quite a while.
I just walked away from him and avoided him at all costs from then on until Sept 16, 1998 when I was done with my packing, etc and told him we were leaving. That was his opportunity to remind me I was killing my children with my actions. His exact words were "you are much worse than even I thought, aren't you? You insist on sleeping with the enemy, you've dragged this ministry down for years and now you're knowingly killing your children. Your husband wasn't enough?"
What would be the point, really, in taking him on besides more confrontation, more accusation, more of his power and control. We just laid low for the next month until my brothers could get to me.
As a mom I've had more than enough occasions to want to do permanant damage to those who hurt one of them, said stupid stuff or harmed us in some way. Again, how can I parent effectively, especially a really troubled 16 year old daughter, if I take actions that might have consequences that could keep me from her.
I'd like to hurt them for you, and we've never met. Think about how God felt about this stuff - I think Mr. Main Man Pervert is gonna The Almighty's boot up his butt one of these days. I just hope we all get to watch!
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ckeer
Kizka- Hi and welcome, I hope you find the community here in greasespot cafe as theraputic as I have. I can fully believe that you have had these things happen while in TWI. I saw enough of it when I joined TWI, later on the WOW field and as a believer pretty much up until I left. In several cases I reported about them- little was done. The really wicked thing was how even when transgressors were punished the leaders still practiced it in secret using a cloak of spirituality.
As you say God will sort them out in the end.
In the meantime I hope you find peace and complete healing/wholeness "sozo"
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year2027
God first
Hi kizka
welcome to the board
I do know about being woman but understand pain
you stood a big step today
written my story is how i handle things
write your life story
because more you say about it the closer you get healing
i am glad you found this place
love Roy
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waysider
Hi, Kizka
It's terrible what was done to you.
The Way was a very sick place in so very many ways.
I hope you will stick around awhile and get to know us.
There is a lot of interesting information here on the front page.
(You might be particularly interested in "Losing The Way".)
Glad you found this place.
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Twinky
I am not sure if it will help you, or not, to know that IT WAS NOT YOUR FAULT but it was part of a pattern of behavior that was widely practiced in TWI. It was nothing that you did, or did not, do. Just that you are female.
You have been a member for quite a while but have only recently posted, so no doubt you have read a lot of the miserable tales that have been posted here. Well done on finding the courage to start posting. It'll help you root out some of the damage that's been done in your head.
Have a cup of coffee and something nice to eat.
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JeffSjo
Hi Kizka,
I wish all the best for you. I hope you have the support of a safe circle of friends to help you continue to sort things out.
It seems like a wise thing for you to be able to say that you may still feel a little prone to falling for guys who give you the old "We are of God" line. Did you really mean,"I never put up any resistance if he tells me he is a 'godly' person?"
Wierwille used it.
My former splinter group leaders utilized that same sentiment to get ten young women to make lifetime commitments to him.
And I'm sure that plenty of clergy from many different types of groups have used that sentiment to take advantage of folks, even if it in some cases did not lead to sexual exploitation.
I wish you well.
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kizka
Thank you everyone for the warm welcome and kind responses. You seem like a great group of people and I look forward to getting to know you better. In response to JeffSjo's question:
I realize in my last two relationships this was done to me, even though my instincts were screaming NO. The whole time I was with both, there was a strong tug of war between how I really felt and the "God's will" trap. In the end I left both and was drained by the experience. Reading this site and other people's experiences made me understand what I was doing. To be exact, if someone tells me our sexual relationship is of God, even if I have been resisting it, it has the effect of catapulting me into the relationship. The reason I think it is happening, is because as a teenage girl I decided this is how to belong to a family.
I wonder how many unmarried teenage girls went to the Way sex class, that I believe was intended for married couples? I did, but don't remember much about it at this point, except there was some soft porn in it. Anyone else remember it?
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markomalley
Christian Family and Sex
Christian Family and Sex
So what was the Christian Family and Sex class about?
Was Wierwille's Christian Family and Sex Class Any Good?
The above are some threads where it was discussed. There are more (see the above for additional links)
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kizka
Thanks Mark!
I just read through them -- very helpful. I remember now, though I feel nauseous.
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JeffSjo
I think that in one sense you are no different than most people in that you are attracted to certain things that may not be good for us.
But the added aspect in your case of being suckered by people who hypocritically use their self-righteousness to victimize you in God's name gives these turds a whole other level of accountability before the Lord that makes their eventual reward especially painful.
But I hope you come to terms with this thing before it bites you again kizka.
And even though it may not be necessary, I suppose it can't hurt to say that I am happily taken and have every intention of not screwing that up because of any such possible foolishness.
(edited for grammar and spelling)
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brainfixed
hi kizka. i'm sorry to meet yet another child messed up by the way international's "unofficial" practice and standard of raping pillaging and plundering whatever "leadership" felt they had a "right" to, and i am sorry to say that i am someone that is quite angry about it all and that i have found out that there aren't many people that are angry about it and that actually think the anger is a sign that there's something wrong with me, so as a sort of warning or something just don't let anybody know if it bothers you much, and i'd say send me a private message or an email but i disabled those things here after being told how to "fix" myself one too many times. welcome and beware that this is the internet and that not everybody has escaped as much as they want to believe or want everybody else to believe. be careful.
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JeffSjo
Hi again Kizka,
I have to agree with much of what brainfixed said. Just as anywhere else, but maybe on the internet especially, folks are not often what they seem. I am guessing since you have been a member here for a while that this fact has not escaped you. Heck, I have heard stories of even people pretending to be one gender while seeking relationships with their own gender. And no matter what one thinks of relationships or their own choice of gender preference it seems obvious to me that dishonesty is not a healthy place to start a relationship of any kind.
I think that your first post was very brave. The folks that have had the most impact on me since I came here had the courage to share their own stories without much in the way of pulling any punches. And I think many TWI trained predators may see a woman who admits to certain patterns as you have as a possible mark, I would hope that posting at GSC with your anonymity in place may provide you with a certain safe distance from folks who may try to play you. At least it gives you the chance to fully consider a post or private message before responding in any manner at all, which you have the right to not respond to any overtures of any kind if you wish to not respond.
Let me just say that if any man at all has tried to contact you thinking to start any relationship that you already know is unhealthy for you as you have stated plainly, that I am embarrassed a little for us all. And if any woman has contacted you privately in order to warn you off of continuing this thread that there may well be good reasons and personal ones at that for their warnings.
But when I first saw your post I thought that this thread may be a good opportunity for both women and men to discuss the folly concerning our own personal relationships that TWI may have built into us. I know for certain that as a young man that I was attracted to other young women who professed Godliness but also had a certain sexual edge to them and their relationships without the necessary love and commitment. So it seems to me that even us men may have the same kind of unhealthy patterns that you have described from your own perspective.
But I already know for certain that you are not the only one with the issues that you share with us. And it was very brave IMO of you to be up front with us concerning some of your issues.
But without honest participation from any of the gals and guys that I know could really relate to your situation it is unfortunately inevitable that even an outstanding topic such as this thread will come to nothing out here in broad daylight where we can all see just what is happening. And I hope that for you Kizka, that the things that may be going on behind the scene are not troublesome for you.
Take care and God bless,
JEFF
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Shellon
Another resource, perhaps
http://www.probono.net/dv/
Pro Bono Domestic Violence Information
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JeffSjo
Darlin.....
You are very RESOURCEful
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Shellon
:) Jeff, as you know this issue is very important for me to discuss and not take lightly or with any dismissive tone whatsoever; it's the reality for so many women, sadly.
One of the reasons I HAD to get out of twi was the lead pervert sidled up to me and reminded me my then 16 year old daughter was "almost ready for him", leaving no doubt whatsoever of his intent. Unfortunately I did not take the action I would today if some sexually abusive sonovabi+ch made such a comment to me where one of my daughters was concerned. I'd probably be writing this from some prison library if they let me have the privelege.
This issue of women feeling like they have to be pawns of spirituality where men are concerned is overdue to be dealt with, addressed and stopped where possible. What can be done on a daily basis, perhaps, I don't know. As a mother of daughters all I know to do is tell them these kinds of stories, give them the tools to feel strengthened in their own right in church or any other place where men might want to use their bodies for such abuse and misuse in the "name of God".
Kizka, I agree with Jeff, your post(s) have been very brave and I applaud you for the strength to disclose something so private and personal about yourself. For having the courage to say "it happened to me"; that does take an insurmountable act of bravery and honesty and trust of the readers here.
For all but one year during our time in TWI, I was in a pretty strong marriage, thus not being one of their targets. (this has not always been the norm, I know that, it just was for me) While I experienced a few remarks and/or suggestive comments, I somehow knew that they knew my marriage was one of fidelity and if they wanted to persue any of their fool behavior further, they'd have a large and very pis*ed off husband up their asz. In fact, he did have to confront a time or two, expressing our marriage as a reminder and it was left as "yeah, I'd never mess with YOUR wife" and they didn't.
Until he died.
At that time I was on my own and the men in the fellowship(s) said they would be my head, they would see to my needs, they would take care of me. I was able to avoid any such confrontation, for the most part, except and until the comment about my oldest daughter that was a blazing neon flag to GTFO and I did, only 2 months later as I could figure it all out.
The dynamics that make us who we are are profound and men who profess to be of God learn to recognize those dynamics. Somehow it's as if any childhood abuse screams from our person and says something to them that reads "She will do anything I say". Somehow they have honed their ability, however misplaced or incorrect, but assumed, to feel comfortable taking information we might have disclosed and using it against us.
Classic abuse of power to which so many fall victim if only because of fear of further dismissal, retribution, fall from the grace of God or whatever s/he percieves as truth, given ones background, how persuasive the current liar is or other pressure we might never know of.
Jeff, your sharing your own experiences puts a man's view to things, which is apreciated and welcomed by any that might assume anything.
My oldest daughter, mentioned at beginning of post, seemed to be looking for family when her dad died; missing totally that she still had her mama and sister and extended loved ones at her disposal. She so badly needed to hear comfort and acceptance and consolation, looking for it in local gangs mostly. If the lead pervert had not made his comment to me, might she have been in a perfect vulnerable position to be his next victim? Thankfully we'll never know. And our family was about as "normal" as one can get; no abuse in the home, no violence, there was more than enough love and kindness and acceptance.
I add that to suggest that it's not just the dynamics of our backgrounds, not just because of our history, not necessarily because we seem to wear some victim flag; it's about power and control and abusing of same.
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JeffSjo
I have to agree with you Shellon on every point of yours that I happen to be intelligent enough to recognize.
It is all about power and control and abusing of same.
I guess for me here at GSC all I can do is support anyone who tries to bring this touchy and overdue topic up for discussion.
For me, it is bad enough to see a man who has no conscience concerning playing women for whatever he can get from them. But when I see a ministry where the systematic abuse was sooo bad that even your sixteen year old daughter was being set up to sate the piggish lust of these supposed men of God I get a little stirred up too.
As a young man I can definitely remember the pull of a pretty and flirtatious young woman. But in your case we are talking about a TWI leader scum-sucking bottom feeder who felt enough confidence in his ability to manage people that he actually asked you....her momma.... if she "was ready" for him.
I keep forgetting the name you gave me for this guy..... I will ask you again later I suppose. This guy absolutely must become a card carrying member of my permanent sh!t list. And even though that list will ultimately come to nothing most likely I really, really believe that this type of TWI leader deserves to be remembered for the evil things that they have done.
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Twinky
And, of course, you'd be the one that was labelled pozzezzed.
Dunno where you found the self-control not to cause him permanent damage.
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Shellon
Yeah, no kidding, Twinky. I would be the fault of whatever happened. There had also been some conversations about her recent behavior ( going MIA for days, defiance, drugs) that I knew were her reactions to her dad's death. So, the 'you have to put that child out' was close and I knew it. His comment was not a huge shock to me, really. I, by that time, also had known about Martindale's actions for quite a while.
I just walked away from him and avoided him at all costs from then on until Sept 16, 1998 when I was done with my packing, etc and told him we were leaving. That was his opportunity to remind me I was killing my children with my actions. His exact words were "you are much worse than even I thought, aren't you? You insist on sleeping with the enemy, you've dragged this ministry down for years and now you're knowingly killing your children. Your husband wasn't enough?"
What would be the point, really, in taking him on besides more confrontation, more accusation, more of his power and control. We just laid low for the next month until my brothers could get to me.
As a mom I've had more than enough occasions to want to do permanant damage to those who hurt one of them, said stupid stuff or harmed us in some way. Again, how can I parent effectively, especially a really troubled 16 year old daughter, if I take actions that might have consequences that could keep me from her.
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Watered Garden
I'd like to hurt them for you, and we've never met. Think about how God felt about this stuff - I think Mr. Main Man Pervert is gonna The Almighty's boot up his butt one of these days. I just hope we all get to watch!
WG
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