I like the way she places the responsibility for the most part where it belongs with the man and the "other woman." So many times people say it's all the wife's fault, she's not "keeping herself up" or she argues with him or something.
Men just like women vow a vow to GOD to be faithful to their wives. It may be a challenge to keep that vow sometimes, but it's still a vow before God.
It really ticks me off when I see a young woman work her rear end off to support her husband in his youth only to be dumped and replaced by a younger woman when her husband, who has climbed the ladder of success on her back, thinks better things are coming his way.
Yes, Watered Garden, and of course under the umbrella of the Man Of God.
I don't know, I find myself the realist, man of God or man in the moon; anyone who is going to go outside their marriage can find a reason, an excuse to do so.
We've discussed here about how it's tweaked somehow when a minister, pastor, preacher (whatever the title) uses that to impress, entice, lure, oppress, frighten, promise......
Agreed, she does present it more as 'accept responsibility', which is refreshing, isn't it?
Let me start with a disclaimer: I AM NOT ADVOCATING THE BELOW ERRANT, HARDHEARTED, MEAN, NASTY, HATEFUL ATTITUDE AT ALL. I am merely posting this because it is an attitude that is way, way, way too pervasive in the world today, and I think needs to be addressed, brought out in the open so's it will scurry away like bugs under an upturned rock.
You can find it easily on the internet but when T*d Ha**ard was caught with a young male prostitute, the West Coast Wonder, M**k Dr**col, wrote in his blog that
"Most pastors I know do not have satisfying, free, sexual conversations and liberties with their wives. At the risk of being even more widely despised than I currently am, I will lean over the plate and take one for the team on this. It is not uncommon to meet pastors' wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness. A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband's sin, but she may not be helping him either." He later posted an apology and explanation after widespread protests. [14]
(from Wikipedia)(but it's all over the internet)
This is the attitude that really gets me fired up like an Atlas booster rocket; and I don't think this overrated blowhard is alone in his errant thinking, either. Thank God for women like the author of this book who have the courage to speak up. God does indeed apply His laws to all of us, male or female.
I doubt she's suggesting it's the woman's fault, still or then. What I expect is her point is that often women might consider the stereotype that a minister would not put sex as high on his list of needs as another, perhaps he'd have hangups that would free her from having to participate her own self.
Aren't we taught from a very young age that the minister is very nearly celibate; or suggested, at least. And consider the Priests who are supposed to not do such things; I can see where a young woman who has her own issues with sexual matters could consider that any man who professes himself one of God would not put her in a place to have to deal with them.
I remember the churches we used to wander in and out of when I was growing up and while I never considered anything they said in terms of sexual issues, I did believe that a minister was supposed to consider his wife a gem, his treasure and he loved her unconditionally, period. Wouldn't that allow a young woman comfort in believing that her own minister husband would do the same to her, no matter what happened to her body, how much she didn't enjoy sexual relations, if that were the case?
Certainly if she took those vows with him and ESPECIALLY if the conversation of sex never came up before some other minister type person said "I now pronounce you..." then she finds out he does, indeed, want, hope, expect her to be as sexually interested as he, she'd be in a fix huh?
Still doesn't make it her fault if he uses his capacity as minister to go outside his marriage and as stated, I don't think that was Tzaia's point.
I once took a class taught by a minister and his wife. They had had difficulties and eventually he learned that it was because she had been repeatedly sexually abused as a child. It took years of therapy, love, and understanding to unravel all this and heal the damage. But this guy did the right thing; he address her issues, not his wants and needs. That is the sacrificial love husbands are supposed to have for their wives and I was just moved to tears by their story.
And then, of course, they turned right around and starting helping others!
Again, this subject, certainly between a man and women considering marriage and perhaps more so if one is in a ministering position, they have to talk to each other.
Before they dress up for a wedding.
I think I can understand why a woman might not tell her betrothed about child hood sexual abuse, even if I find it dangerous that she doesn't. If she can't trust him, then who? Sadly, I understand that, again as a realist, that's so not the case in the majority.
I also am easy to understand if he's a minister or their plans are that he will be in short order. Would it be easy for her to assume that when and if she does get the courage to tell him, he'd obviously understand, point no fingers at her and help her heal? I think it would, especially given our cultural "but he's here in God's stead" thinking. She might think she's safe, whenever she tells him.
If the sexual part of their marriage is suffering as perhaps a result of her memories, but she can't tell him, all he's got is his imagination and fears; and if he asks her "what's wrong" but gets "nothing" in response but something clearly is.........
And, one might suggest, that is the time, eventually that he (minister or not) might justify his own actions of finding someone who will share so fully with him.
And then made worse if she has all those old and crusty beliefs that 'he's a minister and has needs'.
He has been trying to get to the heart of what is going on in her head and heart. If there was abuse, she's not talking. He is crushed because he was looking forward to having a one flesh relationship with his wife only to find out too late that she wasn't interested in that aspect of their marriage at all and has no desire to work on it beyond trying to convince him that his desire to have sex is out of line. He has remained faithful.
That also touches on the assumption that all men who become ministers are called by God? Reminds me of an old story my dad used to tell:
A farmer was out plowing his fields one day. He had tried wheat, soybeans, sorghum, and other crops to no avail; he was a lousy farmer and just didn't know what to do with his life. "God!" He cried out, "every crop I plant either dries up in the field or never even comes up at all! I'm a failure at farming! What am I to do?"
A cloud came rushing up, blotting out the sun. A giant arm reaches out of the cloud and writes two initials in the air: P. C.
The farmer stares in wonder. "P. C.! Preach Christ!" So he sells the farm and goes about the world, preaching Christ. He has very few converts and a whole lot of trouble. At the end of his life when he stands before God, he asks about this: "Why did you send me to preach Christ and then let me have a miserable time doing it?"
"You ninny!" says God. "You asked Me what to do about farming. P. C. stood for Plant Corn!"
The moral, I guess, is that a lot more people think they are called to preach than actually are. A sad situation in a former church plant involved a minister, a pretty good preacher, who had sex with a 15-year-old girl and is now rightfully imprisoned. Was he tempted beyond bearing? His wife had certainly not "let herself go" as Mr. Dr**coll suggests is usually the case, and no one would have guessed from his demeanor that he would dream of doing such a thing. Do we blame the 15-year-old? She didn't seem particularly seductive to me. It is a sad, sad situation that wrecked several lives and hurt a lot more people than him, his victim, and his family. It destroyed a church and opened the door for some very dangerous doctrine to be preached to those who were left.
Marriage is work and involves both parties working to keep themselves attractive and sexually involved with one another. It's not solely the woman or the man's responsibility or only worth in life. When that fails there are a myriad of excuses and blame games played, and it can be that the failure is upon one party and not the other but many times it is a joint failure.
There's no excuse for not living the Song. Especially when there are children involved whose future relationships depend on your example.
And in the story of the 15 y/o, I do not think it was his wife's fault for "letting herself go" which is such another soapbox of mine and certainly not the fault of the 15 y/o.
In his case, he had a double edged responsibility as a 'man of God' AND the adult in the situation.
In a marriage, anyone can find excuses to make other excused to do stupid stuff that, does very much indeed, ruin many lives.
I do think that a lot of "church people" hesitate to get professional help. I don't know whether it's "that the ministry be not blamed" or they just think they should be above needing secular, professional help with a problem, be it in the sexual, financial or whatever category. But in the case of the minister, I make no excuses, accept no excuses, and have no empathy or sympathy whatsoever for this guy. I hope he's enjoying prison. He plea bargained and only got 8 years. That way she didn't have to testify against him. He apologized to a lot of people at the hearing, but not the church he wrecked. Not us.
I wonder if people often hesitate when a minister/ministry, etc is part of the problem is because of that, exactly.
Shame, maybe and still that allegiance to the one who hurt, regardless if it's ill placed.
Any victim will so often not get help, not tell, not seek assistance for so many reasons, not the least of which is "how could you let that happen?"
Right or wrong, it's Reality or Stockholm Syndrome or Fear or Shame or whatever it is for that particular victim. Even and maybe especially if it's his wife ~!
A minister should be the husband of one wife...not one who keeps a harem on the side. The relationship of marriage is supposed to symbolise that of Jesus and the church. Well, just because in the OT the "church" then kept f***ing off with false gods doesn't mean that that is actually "the will of God" (for those still in Wayland). Is going off with other woman/founding some other church the example set by Jesus?
I doubt these men start out as predators. But the easy intimacy and presumed trust between a minister and the congregation can present opportunities that wouldn't surface in another context.
Any idea of the "celibate minister" is a hangover from Roman Catholic teaching that the priest should be celibate and wasn't allowed to marry. That has its roots way back in medieval power grabs and is nothing to do with what the Bible, either OT or NT, teaches.
A church in Louisville Kentucky just ordained a convicted sex offender.
They want to "give him the chance he's deserved".
And yes, of course celibacy isn't necessary applicable but I think that monogamy certainly is assumed because the man is a minister.
And then who will heal the broken lives of the people he will ruin?
My heart aches... WHAT ARE THEY THINKING??????
Speaking from my own life experiences it is not a matter of the person who was abused not wanting to get healing... it is more a case of expecting to 1.not be believed, 2.to be blamed for what happened and 3. to be carrying around a huge load of guilt for being molested as a child and 4.having the molester and society pound it into your head that it is your fault that this adult molested you.
They marry the clergy man because they hope he will be understanding and they have some thought that they will find acceptance there.
Unfortunately he is a human and may have trouble helping her. Usually though I would think more often than not they find their way through this all.
Most people who were molested don't work it all out until at least their 30's if ever.
and sometimes if they are lucky one day they look a their own sweet innocent babies and realize there is no way in HELL they could have stopped what happened or been responsible for it.
But even with that realization they still do not find their way to total healing for years.
And a person who is going to cheat doesn't do it for love it is a selfish act and they justify it in their own head. it has absolutely nothing to do with not getting it at home.
I think the reason people in positions of power cheat is they have people running around telling them they are perfect and wonderful and can do no wrong. No one is immune from that. They start to believe it all and think they have the right to cheat or lie or steal.
We rarely hear of the pastors who live the upstanding virtuous life because it is not news.
The state of Kentucky does not have laws forbidding sex offenders, convicted or otherwise, from being ordained. Not the only state that fails in this area.
He was convicted of the molestation of one child and another victim surfaced, but the victim couldn't, didn't want to, testify so it never got prosecuted. Clearly understandable from the childs point of view.
Will he re-offend? The recitivism rate for sex offenders is staggering, so if it were my call I'd say no question, no doubt and I'd not be shocked to learn of another offense in the last 8 years since he's been a free man.
So a minister should be held accountable, what about a minister that already wasn't?
Boy, I hope they did not offer the mercy of Christ to an unrepentant predator.
But I just cannot see how such a man could have earned a good reputation as to earn such a huge position of trust in such a short time.
And to me it seems that often the same traits that make a good predator are often the convincing and deceptive false front that may convince others that he is repentant and not only deserves another chance but deserves to be ordained.
I'd really like to be wrong, but this seems like a foolish ordination that is likely to go terribly wrong.
I've read this book by Dr. Betty Price. I'll not really offer an opinion except that the story seems to be the same; a man of God often seems to believe he has more rights than others.
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
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Watered Garden
Shellon, thanks for posting this.
I like the way she places the responsibility for the most part where it belongs with the man and the "other woman." So many times people say it's all the wife's fault, she's not "keeping herself up" or she argues with him or something.
Men just like women vow a vow to GOD to be faithful to their wives. It may be a challenge to keep that vow sometimes, but it's still a vow before God.
It really ticks me off when I see a young woman work her rear end off to support her husband in his youth only to be dumped and replaced by a younger woman when her husband, who has climbed the ladder of success on her back, thinks better things are coming his way.
WG
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Shellon
Yes, Watered Garden, and of course under the umbrella of the Man Of God.
I don't know, I find myself the realist, man of God or man in the moon; anyone who is going to go outside their marriage can find a reason, an excuse to do so.
We've discussed here about how it's tweaked somehow when a minister, pastor, preacher (whatever the title) uses that to impress, entice, lure, oppress, frighten, promise......
Agreed, she does present it more as 'accept responsibility', which is refreshing, isn't it?
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Watered Garden
Let me start with a disclaimer: I AM NOT ADVOCATING THE BELOW ERRANT, HARDHEARTED, MEAN, NASTY, HATEFUL ATTITUDE AT ALL. I am merely posting this because it is an attitude that is way, way, way too pervasive in the world today, and I think needs to be addressed, brought out in the open so's it will scurry away like bugs under an upturned rock.
You can find it easily on the internet but when T*d Ha**ard was caught with a young male prostitute, the West Coast Wonder, M**k Dr**col, wrote in his blog that
"Most pastors I know do not have satisfying, free, sexual conversations and liberties with their wives. At the risk of being even more widely despised than I currently am, I will lean over the plate and take one for the team on this. It is not uncommon to meet pastors' wives who really let themselves go; they sometimes feel that because their husband is a pastor, he is therefore trapped into fidelity, which gives them cause for laziness. A wife who lets herself go and is not sexually available to her husband in the ways that the Song of Songs is so frank about is not responsible for her husband's sin, but she may not be helping him either." He later posted an apology and explanation after widespread protests. [14]
(from Wikipedia)(but it's all over the internet)
This is the attitude that really gets me fired up like an Atlas booster rocket; and I don't think this overrated blowhard is alone in his errant thinking, either. Thank God for women like the author of this book who have the courage to speak up. God does indeed apply His laws to all of us, male or female.
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Tzaia
Another problem is that women who don't like sex (erroneously) marry pastors because they believe sex should not be important to the pastor.
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Watered Garden
So then it's still the woman's fault????? Women are just sex machines?
WG
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Shellon
I doubt she's suggesting it's the woman's fault, still or then. What I expect is her point is that often women might consider the stereotype that a minister would not put sex as high on his list of needs as another, perhaps he'd have hangups that would free her from having to participate her own self.
Aren't we taught from a very young age that the minister is very nearly celibate; or suggested, at least. And consider the Priests who are supposed to not do such things; I can see where a young woman who has her own issues with sexual matters could consider that any man who professes himself one of God would not put her in a place to have to deal with them.
I remember the churches we used to wander in and out of when I was growing up and while I never considered anything they said in terms of sexual issues, I did believe that a minister was supposed to consider his wife a gem, his treasure and he loved her unconditionally, period. Wouldn't that allow a young woman comfort in believing that her own minister husband would do the same to her, no matter what happened to her body, how much she didn't enjoy sexual relations, if that were the case?
Certainly if she took those vows with him and ESPECIALLY if the conversation of sex never came up before some other minister type person said "I now pronounce you..." then she finds out he does, indeed, want, hope, expect her to be as sexually interested as he, she'd be in a fix huh?
Still doesn't make it her fault if he uses his capacity as minister to go outside his marriage and as stated, I don't think that was Tzaia's point.
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Watered Garden
Okay, I can accept that explanation.
I once took a class taught by a minister and his wife. They had had difficulties and eventually he learned that it was because she had been repeatedly sexually abused as a child. It took years of therapy, love, and understanding to unravel all this and heal the damage. But this guy did the right thing; he address her issues, not his wants and needs. That is the sacrificial love husbands are supposed to have for their wives and I was just moved to tears by their story.
And then, of course, they turned right around and starting helping others!
WG
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Shellon
:) Watered Garden
I love that story as well ~! As it should be, eh?
Again, this subject, certainly between a man and women considering marriage and perhaps more so if one is in a ministering position, they have to talk to each other.
Before they dress up for a wedding.
I think I can understand why a woman might not tell her betrothed about child hood sexual abuse, even if I find it dangerous that she doesn't. If she can't trust him, then who? Sadly, I understand that, again as a realist, that's so not the case in the majority.
I also am easy to understand if he's a minister or their plans are that he will be in short order. Would it be easy for her to assume that when and if she does get the courage to tell him, he'd obviously understand, point no fingers at her and help her heal? I think it would, especially given our cultural "but he's here in God's stead" thinking. She might think she's safe, whenever she tells him.
If the sexual part of their marriage is suffering as perhaps a result of her memories, but she can't tell him, all he's got is his imagination and fears; and if he asks her "what's wrong" but gets "nothing" in response but something clearly is.........
And, one might suggest, that is the time, eventually that he (minister or not) might justify his own actions of finding someone who will share so fully with him.
And then made worse if she has all those old and crusty beliefs that 'he's a minister and has needs'.
Blech
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Tzaia
He has been trying to get to the heart of what is going on in her head and heart. If there was abuse, she's not talking. He is crushed because he was looking forward to having a one flesh relationship with his wife only to find out too late that she wasn't interested in that aspect of their marriage at all and has no desire to work on it beyond trying to convince him that his desire to have sex is out of line. He has remained faithful.
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Watered Garden
That also touches on the assumption that all men who become ministers are called by God? Reminds me of an old story my dad used to tell:
A farmer was out plowing his fields one day. He had tried wheat, soybeans, sorghum, and other crops to no avail; he was a lousy farmer and just didn't know what to do with his life. "God!" He cried out, "every crop I plant either dries up in the field or never even comes up at all! I'm a failure at farming! What am I to do?"
A cloud came rushing up, blotting out the sun. A giant arm reaches out of the cloud and writes two initials in the air: P. C.
The farmer stares in wonder. "P. C.! Preach Christ!" So he sells the farm and goes about the world, preaching Christ. He has very few converts and a whole lot of trouble. At the end of his life when he stands before God, he asks about this: "Why did you send me to preach Christ and then let me have a miserable time doing it?"
"You ninny!" says God. "You asked Me what to do about farming. P. C. stood for Plant Corn!"
The moral, I guess, is that a lot more people think they are called to preach than actually are. A sad situation in a former church plant involved a minister, a pretty good preacher, who had sex with a 15-year-old girl and is now rightfully imprisoned. Was he tempted beyond bearing? His wife had certainly not "let herself go" as Mr. Dr**coll suggests is usually the case, and no one would have guessed from his demeanor that he would dream of doing such a thing. Do we blame the 15-year-old? She didn't seem particularly seductive to me. It is a sad, sad situation that wrecked several lives and hurt a lot more people than him, his victim, and his family. It destroyed a church and opened the door for some very dangerous doctrine to be preached to those who were left.
WG
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chockfull
Marriage is work and involves both parties working to keep themselves attractive and sexually involved with one another. It's not solely the woman or the man's responsibility or only worth in life. When that fails there are a myriad of excuses and blame games played, and it can be that the failure is upon one party and not the other but many times it is a joint failure.
There's no excuse for not living the Song. Especially when there are children involved whose future relationships depend on your example.
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Shellon
ha, love the P C story
And in the story of the 15 y/o, I do not think it was his wife's fault for "letting herself go" which is such another soapbox of mine and certainly not the fault of the 15 y/o.
In his case, he had a double edged responsibility as a 'man of God' AND the adult in the situation.
In a marriage, anyone can find excuses to make other excused to do stupid stuff that, does very much indeed, ruin many lives.
But some have more accountability.
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Watered Garden
I do think that a lot of "church people" hesitate to get professional help. I don't know whether it's "that the ministry be not blamed" or they just think they should be above needing secular, professional help with a problem, be it in the sexual, financial or whatever category. But in the case of the minister, I make no excuses, accept no excuses, and have no empathy or sympathy whatsoever for this guy. I hope he's enjoying prison. He plea bargained and only got 8 years. That way she didn't have to testify against him. He apologized to a lot of people at the hearing, but not the church he wrecked. Not us.
WG
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Shellon
I wonder if people often hesitate when a minister/ministry, etc is part of the problem is because of that, exactly.
Shame, maybe and still that allegiance to the one who hurt, regardless if it's ill placed.
Any victim will so often not get help, not tell, not seek assistance for so many reasons, not the least of which is "how could you let that happen?"
Right or wrong, it's Reality or Stockholm Syndrome or Fear or Shame or whatever it is for that particular victim. Even and maybe especially if it's his wife ~!
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Twinky
There isn't any excuse.
A minister should be the husband of one wife...not one who keeps a harem on the side. The relationship of marriage is supposed to symbolise that of Jesus and the church. Well, just because in the OT the "church" then kept f***ing off with false gods doesn't mean that that is actually "the will of God" (for those still in Wayland). Is going off with other woman/founding some other church the example set by Jesus?
I doubt these men start out as predators. But the easy intimacy and presumed trust between a minister and the congregation can present opportunities that wouldn't surface in another context.
Any idea of the "celibate minister" is a hangover from Roman Catholic teaching that the priest should be celibate and wasn't allowed to marry. That has its roots way back in medieval power grabs and is nothing to do with what the Bible, either OT or NT, teaches.
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Shellon
A church in Louisville Kentucky just ordained a convicted sex offender.
They want to "give him the chance he's deserved".
And yes, of course celibacy isn't necessary applicable but I think that monogamy certainly is assumed because the man is a minister.
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chockfull
I swear people will lie, cheat, steal and probably murder someone all the while justifying it with those words. It's despicable.
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leafytwiglet
And then who will heal the broken lives of the people he will ruin?
My heart aches... WHAT ARE THEY THINKING??????
Speaking from my own life experiences it is not a matter of the person who was abused not wanting to get healing... it is more a case of expecting to 1.not be believed, 2.to be blamed for what happened and 3. to be carrying around a huge load of guilt for being molested as a child and 4.having the molester and society pound it into your head that it is your fault that this adult molested you.
They marry the clergy man because they hope he will be understanding and they have some thought that they will find acceptance there.
Unfortunately he is a human and may have trouble helping her. Usually though I would think more often than not they find their way through this all.
Most people who were molested don't work it all out until at least their 30's if ever.
and sometimes if they are lucky one day they look a their own sweet innocent babies and realize there is no way in HELL they could have stopped what happened or been responsible for it.
But even with that realization they still do not find their way to total healing for years.
And a person who is going to cheat doesn't do it for love it is a selfish act and they justify it in their own head. it has absolutely nothing to do with not getting it at home.
I think the reason people in positions of power cheat is they have people running around telling them they are perfect and wonderful and can do no wrong. No one is immune from that. They start to believe it all and think they have the right to cheat or lie or steal.
We rarely hear of the pastors who live the upstanding virtuous life because it is not news.
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Shellon
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Shellon
The state of Kentucky does not have laws forbidding sex offenders, convicted or otherwise, from being ordained. Not the only state that fails in this area.
He was convicted of the molestation of one child and another victim surfaced, but the victim couldn't, didn't want to, testify so it never got prosecuted. Clearly understandable from the childs point of view.
Will he re-offend? The recitivism rate for sex offenders is staggering, so if it were my call I'd say no question, no doubt and I'd not be shocked to learn of another offense in the last 8 years since he's been a free man.
So a minister should be held accountable, what about a minister that already wasn't?
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JeffSjo
Boy, I hope they did not offer the mercy of Christ to an unrepentant predator.
But I just cannot see how such a man could have earned a good reputation as to earn such a huge position of trust in such a short time.
And to me it seems that often the same traits that make a good predator are often the convincing and deceptive false front that may convince others that he is repentant and not only deserves another chance but deserves to be ordained.
I'd really like to be wrong, but this seems like a foolish ordination that is likely to go terribly wrong.
(edited for clarity)
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Shellon
No, he should not have been and there should never ever be such an amount of time as he or anyone should.
As per the subject here, will he fall under the "he's a minister, so has more privelages" bullshi+?
We, of course, don't know.
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JeffSjo
but we do have a pretty good idea of what unrepentant predators do, huh?
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JustThinking
"Power tends to corrupt, and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Great men are almost always bad men."
Baron Acton
I imagine we could throw women in there as well.
JT
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