I believe the angle was a messenger of God and just a man
Genesis 32:24 ¶ And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
i have question about
words said man arose after Christ
Mathew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
or
Matthew 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
Roy you may want to start a different thread for that, I do not know your answer but I do want to get back to Jacob.
I have read commentary on this and some beleive it was not an actual happening. Some, trinity people, believe it was Christ. I do not I believe LIKE man Jesus had a begining - he was born.
Even if the angel came as an actual MAN why all the big bruhaha over this? Why send a man/angel to NOT bless him and then knock his hip out? I just wonder if his limp was he was "out of joint" with his family and it lasted his life time.
Jacob does say that "he saw God face to face..." and there is the possibility he was wresting with the pre-incarnate Christ. There is a belief that angels sent to the earth have to leave earth's realms before the breaking of day...therefore, the angel's command to let him go before the break of day. Was it an angel? I believe it was because the Greek word for this is "angelos" which simply means "messenger" and it sometimes is used of people as well. But the clue is wanting to be released before the break of day. Plus, how could 'just a man' truly put Jacob's hip or thigh out of joint for good. Obviously, Jacob was a strong man, if he could actually wrestle with an angel. However, I believe that there are different size angels in God's Kingdom.
In the NASB text, Jacob uses the Hebrew word PEN-I-EL which means "the face of MY God" but then when he rose up, the text says in Hebrew, PEN-U-EL which means "the face of OUR God." Another interesting thing is that the angel asks for his name and Jacob gives it, but then the angel changes Jacobs name to Israel. When Jacob asks for the angels name, the angel won't give it to him. In the East, it is thought that if a person knows your name it gives them power over you, especially your first or given name. We see this same thing when the Lord Jesus Christ says that no one will know His new name...only the Father in Heaven will know the name that He newly gives to His Son. This indicates that no one ever will have power over the Lord Christ. In turn, the Lord Jesus will give a new name to those who overcome as well.
So, even if you are right. Do you get why? Why did the angel come to him, if the angel came to talk to him why was he leaving. And Jacob wrestled him -- literally? I dunno. IT is so weird and makes little sense to me.
Thanks Bride for all you wrote... Its like why does God require a BLOOD sacrifice? I never got that either. I get the sin is in the blood...
An angel is a messenger. Okay. It might be a physical person - a human being. Sometimes, might be a spiritual being that takes on physical appearance. (There was a thread on angels a while back, in Open).
Angels are of greater strength than humans, who are only earthen vessels. How could a human wrestle some spirit being that could "dematerialize" at any time?
In the incident you're discussing, Dot? I dunno, it always bothered me, too. I'd tend to go with it being a vision of some sort.
But why the injury? Did Jacob fall out of bed, LOL?
Jacob and his family and flocks had traveled far and reasonably fast to be able to get to their destination. Jacob sent on his wives and families and remained alone. Perhaps age (for he was not a young man any more), his hard life as a herdsman, the journey, the tension, stress and fear of meeting his brother again (not to mention years of sleeping on hard surfaces out in the fields/pastures), etc, played on a weaker hip joint as he tossed and turned in his dream/vision.
I'd go for a vision or restless night where he was making up his mind to face up to his brother and "claim" the stolen blessing as really his own. He knew he'd defrauded (tricked) the blessing out of his father by disguising himself as his brother, of whom he was plainly still fearful many years later. The "blessing" from the "angel" was when he finally made up his mind to go do it. Finally fully persuaded, as it were.
Being a tricky and deceptive fellow, however, he could also have been faking the limp to try and get his brother's sympathy.
Bride, did you forget these verses?
Joh 1:18No man hath seenGod at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.You also don't seem to have taken this into account:
Ge 33:10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though [= therefore not actually] I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.Consider also:
Ge 19:15-17And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city
So clearly these angels were running around in broad daylight. The morning "arose" and it took time to get Lot and his family moving.
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year2027
God first
hi Dot
I believe the angle was a messenger of God and just a man
Genesis 32:24 ¶ And Jacob was left alone; and there wrestled a man with him until the breaking of the day.
i have question about
words said man arose after Christ
Mathew 27:52 And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose,
53 And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.
or
Matthew 7:21 ¶ Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
love Roy
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Dot Matrix
Roy you may want to start a different thread for that, I do not know your answer but I do want to get back to Jacob.
I have read commentary on this and some beleive it was not an actual happening. Some, trinity people, believe it was Christ. I do not I believe LIKE man Jesus had a begining - he was born.
Even if the angel came as an actual MAN why all the big bruhaha over this? Why send a man/angel to NOT bless him and then knock his hip out? I just wonder if his limp was he was "out of joint" with his family and it lasted his life time.
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year2027
God first
hi Dot
It does not matter what I am saying
I believe the angel was just a man that was messenger of God but with fixture of scripture it is not something do I worry about
like whether one is born or conceive
like whether the dead rose or did not
but whether I am saved when the end happens or not
I do not worry about that too
I wanted to add God did not give him the limp the man did it
love Roy
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brideofjc
Jacob does say that "he saw God face to face..." and there is the possibility he was wresting with the pre-incarnate Christ. There is a belief that angels sent to the earth have to leave earth's realms before the breaking of day...therefore, the angel's command to let him go before the break of day. Was it an angel? I believe it was because the Greek word for this is "angelos" which simply means "messenger" and it sometimes is used of people as well. But the clue is wanting to be released before the break of day. Plus, how could 'just a man' truly put Jacob's hip or thigh out of joint for good. Obviously, Jacob was a strong man, if he could actually wrestle with an angel. However, I believe that there are different size angels in God's Kingdom.
In the NASB text, Jacob uses the Hebrew word PEN-I-EL which means "the face of MY God" but then when he rose up, the text says in Hebrew, PEN-U-EL which means "the face of OUR God." Another interesting thing is that the angel asks for his name and Jacob gives it, but then the angel changes Jacobs name to Israel. When Jacob asks for the angels name, the angel won't give it to him. In the East, it is thought that if a person knows your name it gives them power over you, especially your first or given name. We see this same thing when the Lord Jesus Christ says that no one will know His new name...only the Father in Heaven will know the name that He newly gives to His Son. This indicates that no one ever will have power over the Lord Christ. In turn, the Lord Jesus will give a new name to those who overcome as well.
So what it really an angelic visit? I think so.
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Dot Matrix
So, even if you are right. Do you get why? Why did the angel come to him, if the angel came to talk to him why was he leaving. And Jacob wrestled him -- literally? I dunno. IT is so weird and makes little sense to me.
Thanks Bride for all you wrote... Its like why does God require a BLOOD sacrifice? I never got that either. I get the sin is in the blood...
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cman
What's an angel would be a good question I think.
Where are they as well.
When an angel comes to someone, where does it come from?
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Twinky
An angel is a messenger. Okay. It might be a physical person - a human being. Sometimes, might be a spiritual being that takes on physical appearance. (There was a thread on angels a while back, in Open).
Angels are of greater strength than humans, who are only earthen vessels. How could a human wrestle some spirit being that could "dematerialize" at any time?
In the incident you're discussing, Dot? I dunno, it always bothered me, too. I'd tend to go with it being a vision of some sort.
But why the injury? Did Jacob fall out of bed, LOL?
Jacob and his family and flocks had traveled far and reasonably fast to be able to get to their destination. Jacob sent on his wives and families and remained alone. Perhaps age (for he was not a young man any more), his hard life as a herdsman, the journey, the tension, stress and fear of meeting his brother again (not to mention years of sleeping on hard surfaces out in the fields/pastures), etc, played on a weaker hip joint as he tossed and turned in his dream/vision.
I'd go for a vision or restless night where he was making up his mind to face up to his brother and "claim" the stolen blessing as really his own. He knew he'd defrauded (tricked) the blessing out of his father by disguising himself as his brother, of whom he was plainly still fearful many years later. The "blessing" from the "angel" was when he finally made up his mind to go do it. Finally fully persuaded, as it were.
Being a tricky and deceptive fellow, however, he could also have been faking the limp to try and get his brother's sympathy.
Bride, did you forget these verses?
Joh 1:18 No man hath seen God at any time; the only begotten Son, which is in the bosom of the Father, he hath declared him.You also don't seem to have taken this into account:
Ge 33:10 And Jacob said, Nay, I pray thee, if now I have found grace in thy sight, then receive my present at my hand: for therefore I have seen thy face, as though [= therefore not actually] I had seen the face of God, and thou wast pleased with me.Consider also:
Ge 19:15-17 And when the morning arose, then the angels hastened Lot, saying, Arise, take thy wife, and thy two daughters, which are here; lest thou be consumed in the iniquity of the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city. And while he lingered, the men laid hold upon his hand, and upon the hand of his wife, and upon the hand of his two daughters; the LORD being merciful unto him: and they brought him forth, and set him without the city
So clearly these angels were running around in broad daylight. The morning "arose" and it took time to get Lot and his family moving.
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