Someone please correct me if I am wrong on this ok...
I've read the POP, some time ago, and if I remember correctly, it wasn't the believers that VP blamed but instead it was the board of trustees. I think in the last part of the document, VP asked CG if they had changed and the answer was no.
Somehow I got the idea that VP thought if they had changed, if they somehow started looking at him as the MOG he was again, he could live.
Any further posts on this to clarify would be welcome....
newlife.....I think that your recollection of geer's statements are correct.
HOWEVER.....I for one, did not believe his spin for one new york minute. All the pompous substance of pop led back to geer.....all he did, how much he tried, the unending labor he gave, etc. etc. And, time after time, he was so vague in "how to get back to 'the word'".......what a sleight of hand powergrab!!!
Everything benefited Cgeer. Soon region guys were flying over to see him and get the "secret keys" to stay in fellowship to God, etc. Sheeeeesh......people are SO GULLIBLE.
In terms of the infamous church lady........."HOW CONVENIENT."
Somehow I got the idea that VP thought if they had changed, if they somehow started looking at him as the MOG he was again, he could live.
The problem with this is that the guy was never a "MOG" to begin with. He was just an arrogant dillweed who happened to hold the reins of a very lucrative MLM organization. He was just pizzed off because he was losing the status he thought he deserved. I guess he thought that playing the sympathy card would help him retain the loyalty of his devotees. And, apparently he was right about that.
"Oh, poor me, I gave my eye for my keeeeeeeds." (cough, hack, wheeze)
I think and important point has been missed in the discussion so far.
Remember that "unbelievers can stop or impair the power of God." (Jesus couldn't do many mighty works in Nazareth; unbelievers were kicked out when children were raised from the dead; etc.) Since Wierwille was the MOGFODAT, it OBVIOUSLY wasn't his believing that was the problem. It MUST have been ours!
I think and important point has been missed in the discussion so far.
Remember that "unbelievers can stop or impair the power of God." (Jesus couldn't do many mighty works in Nazareth; unbelievers were kicked out when children were raised from the dead; etc.) Since Wierwille was the MOGFODAT, it OBVIOUSLY wasn't his believing that was the problem. It MUST have been ours!
<_<
George
Yeah, I forgot
Page 10
Keys To Walking In The Spirit
#9. It may be essential to put unbelievers out of the room.
I wonder how that fits with:
#1. To receive revelation, you first must become meek.
wow, this is an awesome thread. I was recruited right in the middle of the poop paper and the splintering and everyone turned really pro-LCW and there were all kinds of M&As going on. I wanted to learn the bible, so I ignored it, but it ended up having a negative long-term effect on me anyway. the backstory is appreciated.
That is some truly amazing info to me that you posted, thank you.
... the things that LCM, Geer, Howard Allen, and Donnie Wierwille did were learned from VPW as much as anybody... they were really only following in VPW's footsteps.
I have heard a lot of sharings that make it clear that in spite of VPW's charms that he was also exceedingly nasty whenever... He certainly spent a lot of time reaming those .... who challenged his doctrines or did things that a narcissistic man would consider a public challenge to his status.
Any thoughts on that HCW?
Sure. I've got some thoughts.... but first, Thanks for the kind words.
One thing I've always tried to contribute to these forums discussing TWI is to de-mystify it. Things were very different in the earlier days (pre 1980's) around HQ than out in the field. It was a lot more "real" in the sense that, whereas people respected VP, et. al. there wasn't as much of the demi-gogging worshipping thing there. There were always folk around who had very eye-open
Its funny you should mention LCM, Geer, Howard Allen... All of those guys were known around HQ to be real jerks at times. Others were known & respected for having kinder, gentler personalities. Donnie W. was very laid back, mellow & nice for the most part, at least that was my experience w/ him. The extreme worship thing blew up as the ministry started growing exponentially after the first ROA.
I wouldn't say those guys were "following in VP's" footsteps. When they were acting like jerks it was because they had it in them to be jerks. If anything they were acting in parallel to whatever VP may have been doing.
VP was EXTREMELY high strung. He acted like a REALLY high strung person does when he's in charge. Since he was the boss, he did what he wanted, when he wanted. Much like a child does when they throw a temper tamtrum over the littlest thing that doesn't go their way.
I think the concept of "attributing his outbursts to narcissistic tendencies" is giving him a little bit waaay too much credit in a manner of speaking. Frankly, I think the point is better said by saying, "Man, VP was a REAL jerk at times. No lofty ascertaining of the situation necessary. Just a real world statement.
He acted like a spoiled brat at times, whenever he wanted to.
Why? Because he was the boss, that's why. He bullied a lot of people, a lot of the time. A lot of people were afraid of him because he'd "ream the hell out of you" in public... even over things that weren't such a big deal. Nobody wanted to be humiliated in public. Although "everybody want to be around hime when he was on fire preaching the word. Almost nobody wanted to be around him when he got mad. It was really easy to get him mad sometimes. Sure, some other people acted like him because he did it, but mostly they did it because they had it in themselves to do it. People used VP's weaknesses as an excuse to exploit their own weakness, lack of tact, lack of decorum, or just plain laziness & lack of people skills.
Mrs. Owens started teaching Christian Etiquette - - because we needed it.
An interesting thought, at least to me... is the perspective on TWI from the locals.
The locals NEVER worshipped VPW, not for one stinking moment. Why? They KNEW him, that's why. They grew up with him. I only lived on grounds for the first year I was on staff, '79 - '80. Then again while I was in residence for 1 block, final year in 11th Corps. The rest of the total 8yrs on staff and almost 15yrs in the area, I lived off grounds, with the locals. No Waybrain out in the communities (except when the Wayfers venture out). My oldest daughter actually IS a New Knoxville native. I married a NK girl & lived there long enough to be accepted as part of the NK community, I had season tickets to the HS Basketball game, (seats 4th row @ halfcourt), went to Fall Festival every year, just like everybody else.
Everybody knows everybody in those small towns.
Its wierd to bigger city folk (myself included at first), but we can "smell a wafer a mile away." Why? cause after you've lived there long enough, you know everybody, everybody knows you, you know "everyone" who comes to visit, you know basically why ANYBODY who ever passes through passes through AND basically where anyone's going WHEN they drive by...
You even know how a kid is GOING TO behave in school, because you know his parents, both of them, divorced or not. You know basically how much money everyone has, cause you see them buying their stuff, or see the stuff they had shipped in or brought back from their trip to New York or the Bahamas. You know what house they used to live in before they bought the bigger one, which you knew they would buy when you knew they got their raise, or their new job; or they lost their job. You know cause there are so few people around. You can't help but hear stuff, & say stuff yourself.
That being said, the TWI bull-crap sticks out like a sore thumb when you just stop for a minute, a second even and look at it from REAL world eyes. They look, act & talk different than "we" do.
Example:
VP was intelligent, he could be very nice, but he had a mean, jerky streak. He had a chip on his shoulder. He never wanted to be & act like NK boys do. NK people got mad at him & he wanted to get back at them. He gave the town "the finger" in a lot of ways through the years. (not being so much akin to local traditions, "we" [outsiders] didn't see that, but the locals did). Donnie got mad at his Dad for being a jerk to his Mom. The town got mad at VP cause he didn't follow the traditional path that NK boys do. (You don't start no worldwide ministry on the family farm & bring in "crazies from all over." You just don't do that 'round here.)
BUT. VP wanted (in traditional NK fashion) Donnie to follow in his footsteps in the ministry. Donnie said NO & gave his Dad "the finger" when he left, went to college away from the area & started his adult life in another state. VPW was upset about that & for years begged Donnie to come back (unsuccessfully). After Harry & Ermal died Donnie reluctantly agreed to come back, however, as Vice President. Donnie ran the day to day corporate operations of the ministry. The whole thing of replacing old-timers in staff positions w/ "God Inspired Professionals" was Donnie's thing. He wanted TWI to be "the best corporation in the world."
Freeze frame right there. Check this out.
Mercer County in Ohio (where Celina is), is, per capita the richest county in the state (because of agriculture). New Bremen has Crown Equipment Corp. (a world leader in manufacture of lift trucks, check your local warehouse, there will be a Crown forklift of some sort there.) Minster has Minster Machine (a world class machining company), etc, New Knoxville has Hoge Lumber, (world leader in bowling alleys & stuff like that). The forts man on the moon was from Wapakoneta. All thhose towns surround Nk. Donnie wanted TWI to be bigger & more than "all of the above." Each of those little towns compete w/ each other, always have, always will. When VP talked about hanging out w/ corporate execs at the Indy 500 & stuff while they "bragged about how big" their companies were - - He was talking to and about THEM; the local guys who own those places as well as others. He wanted to say "mine is bigger than yours" to them. (Ambassador one was one of the biggest corporate jets of its day. You can't stand up in the cabin of a lear jet, which is what Crown & those other companies have.
BTW. The former ambassador one pilot was flying for Crown, last I spoke to him. AND Crown bought TWI's mega luxury hangar at NK airport. (poetic justice?)
Vp hacked his son off by what he did to his Mom - - for the sake of the ministry. When Donnie got old enough, he took that ministry from his Dad, used it to set himself & his family for lifetimes & ran it into the ground. He built it & set it up financially so that it is "self propagating, self sustaining, etc." All that lingo came from Donnie, not VP. The money to run TWI will never run out, as long as they do the minimum to keep the door open it'll "run forever." The "innie-est" insiders have money for life. Your money, your freewill offerings (sweet gig if you can get it.)
Other folk were (and still are) just cannibalizing off of it. Unfortunately there were many thousands who involved themselves w/ TWi for the right reasons all along the way. God's Word was our "product" at TWI. Minster sells Machines, New Bremen sells forklifts, Celina sells "farm stuff" St. Marys hosts industries, TWi sells GOD. Problem is, God is NOT for SALE. He don't like what we did either.
Whose "fault" was it? I wondered for years just what the deal with TWI was. Now all its coming together for me and it can be summed up in these few scriptures:
Acts Chapter 5
Verse:36
For before these days rose up Theudas (Victor), boasting himself to be somebody; to whom a number of men, about four hundred (about 5 thousand Way Corps), joined themselves: who was slain(when Victor died); and all, as many as obeyed him, were scattered, and brought to nought.
37
After this man rose up Judas of Galilee (the splinter groups) in the days of the taxing (Obama ), and drew away much people after him: he also perished (when their leaders die...); and all, even as many as obeyed him, were dispersed.
38And now I say unto you, Refrain from these men, and let them alone: for if this counsel or this work be of men, it will come to nought:
39
But if it be of God, ye cannot overthrow it; lest haply ye be found even to fight against God.
If TWi was of God ever, it would BE of God, now and still. There are so many out there who know so much more about the old days than I do. I know just enough to know that there have always been cracks in the TWi ministry. There have always been good and Godly people in TWi. In my opinion God blessed VP and TWI for a while because His Word IS true and at least some of us actually had it in our hearts to teach it accurately with integrity. After the dust settled w/Vp's death TWi got rid of us, all of us who wouldn't leave on our own, some were escorted off the grounds by armed guards (some of whom I trained in some basic martial arts).
However; regarding VP....
James Chapter 1:
Verse 14
But every man is tempted, when he is drawn away of his own lust, and enticed.
15
Then when lust hath conceived, it bringeth forth sin: and sin, when it is finished, bringeth forth death.
VP's heart wasn't "broken" if anything, it was destroyed by his own sin. It was his fault, He knew that. Why else would he have gone around as he did having Harve sing that dreadful song. "I wish I were the man I know to be." I don't think he was "Dr. Evil," just sinful.
I, too, saw much of what you noted in the above post.....but really, I think to understand wierwille one has to go back to his childhood, school years, early influences and other mens' ministries, of which, wierwille envied and crafted and copied. Mrs. Wierwille's book is a twi-sanitized version of vpw.....but if one read's between the lines, it's quite easy to see that vpw was a dull 'reflected glory' when contrasted with some of the contempory men that are spotlighted.
IMO.....what shaped wierwille happened long ago. Why did wierwille want to be 'the best?' Where did his narcissist drive come from? Was Ernst Wierwille, vpw's dad, an alcoholic and abuser as some have claimed? And, after vpw had "received the best education that money could buy"......was he guilt-ridden to REPAY his father with kind tributes and driven to show the family that he was worthy of this educational expense?
Most of us ex-twiers only encountered wierwille by 1975 or so........BUT BY THEN, HE WAS NEARLY 60 YEARS OLD.
I, for one, believe that most people's social/religious/phychological viewpoints and purpose-driven prejudices are shaped and fortified in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. In Mrs. Wierwille's book....the opening paragraph, "The Wierwille family ancestry can be traced as far back as the 1300's to a small town in northern France called Vierville-sur-Mer, translated "Wierwille by the Sea." These Viervilles were Huguenots, a group of French Protestants who staunchly resisted Roman Catholic attempts to dominate the religious and social life of France. In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, many Huguenots left France to escape religious persecution, the Viervilles among them." Was this heritage something that his parents lauded to the young wierwille? Did it shape his young mind?
And....how often did we hear the pontificating of the wierwille heritage? All the corps meetings....all those campfire settings.....the wierwille barn and homestead, his childhood, his rebellion, his schooling, etc. etc? Then comes the 'spiritual men'......E. Stanley Jones, Rufus Moseley, Glenn Clark, BG Leonard, EW Kenyon, Starr Daily, Bishop KC Pillai, George M. Lamsa. And, those are just the main guys that wierwille measured himself against.
But, we also know that wierwille was lazy. As a child, he neglected chores....he hid in the woods to avoid working. In academics, he cut corners. He plagairezed other mens' work. While he "might have wanted something"......he was a fraud. He was chameleon-like.
It seems to me......that wierwille was always trying to measure up to what he wanted "the man in the mirror" to be. He wanted to live like these spiritual men.....he wanted to be included in this "men's club of spiritual elite....he wanted to think that he was God's best. So, he spent a lifetime in trying to prove it.....but failed. In the end, he "wished he were the man he knew to be." Does that mean, he "wished" that he could measure up to those other men? Does that mean he "wished" he would be more Christ like? No matter......in the end, I believe that wierwille could not forsake sin. And, all the parlor games of "you are righteous now"....never could replace the conviction of what the scriptures truly stated.
So much could be said........but, in the end, wierwille came face-to-face with his own "law of believing" when he had his eye removed and cancer. And therein, he was facing his structure of beliefs and his own sin nature. The reflected image in wierwille's mirror was the image that he'd been running from his whole life. He had become what he despised, and yet embraced.
Wierwille made his choices in life, like we all do......one by one. He chose to plagairize his contemporaries. He chose to leave his Van Wert pastorate and strike out on his own......his narcissism couldn't be boxed in by a church structure. He chose to go to India and write his little booklet to strike against the missionary set-up. He chose to steal Rev. BG Leonard's class in 1953 and never give any credit in his later pfal classes. Etc. Etc.
Sometimes, I think......the man was chasing ghosts his whole life.
Thanks Sky. You bring up some great points too, really solid thinking & observation.
Most of us ex-twiers only encountered wierwille by 1975 or so........BUT BY THEN, HE WAS NEARLY 60 YEARS OLD.
...And the vast majority of "most of us" were just kids then. I was first exposed to TWi sometime, I think it was late summer, early fall of 1974 I was around 15 with all of the incredible insight of a smart teenager. (!) I also think we made some general assumptions about VP - perhaps based on the dichotomy of "our" age(s) vs his & the differing stages of life. "We were basically kids & we thought he was mature, adult, fatherly & accomplished. After all, he was "Dr."
"The Groovy Christians of Rye New York" thing was around 1970, & the whole west coast thing before that w/ Jimm!e Do*p & company... young people, teens, 20-somethings for the most part. As TWi history played out, we come to find out that VP had already done probably irreparable damage to the ministry in its "toddler years." A good bit of the core ministry leadership came out of those two groups of young people.
I don't know a whole lot about the riff that happened out on the west coast & most of the players; our paths seldom crossed through the years. However, it could be said that they & we, who came along around the era you mentioned. Skyrider, built TWi on a huge crack. It was only filled w/ spackle. I don't think the wounds that happened then ever really healed.
he wanted to be included in this "men's club of spiritual elite....he wanted to think that he was God's best.
I was a part of the "next wave" of staffers. I was schooled & had a degree & some actual talent suited for the job @ HQ. Prior to that time a good bit of staff positions were filled by "people with a heart to do" what they were doing.
One of my constant peeves about HQ was how we, as a corporation, were like the "Maverick" character from the movie "Top Gun." The corporation wrote checks with our mouth that our performance couldn't cash. Yeah, as we grew there were certain departments, individuals who had the chops to compete with "the best" in the world at what they did, but overall... I don't think so. Coming from a real metropolitan area, having rubbed shoulders with, been taught by, worked for & interned with REAL world class professionals; I knew what they looked like. When I came on staff I aspired to ONE DAY BECOME, a truly God Inspired Professional, I wanted to grow & develop into a world class operation for God. However, just because we mailed & shipped our stuff around the world, that fact alone didn't make it "world class."
Point being, the "man VP knew to be" knew that at best TWi was a work in progress, a fantastic idea with huge potential. "He" had to know that the true order for the day was to be patient with the growth of the ministry, not rushing things as it were to build "God's Ministry" as a Godly corporation. We had a real opportunity to do something really big. Problem was that to do it right, as you said, he was nearly 60 in '75 when HQ was a bean farm & we were still doing ROA at a smelly fairgrounds in Sidney.... not world class conditions.
In our youthful haste, we overlooked Way too much. We projected our own dreams of what TWi COULD be and started living it as if we were, but we weren't. As people fell off along The Way, we mimicked VP's angry arrogance I said THEY were wrong.
Look at what time has told...
VP had little patience where it really mattered. I believe God have been happy to bless a venture like that. Its sad.
Hi might, but only because he's allowed to do so. He has only as much power as people are willing to give to him. That goes for you, too. Seriously Jeff, you need to find another way of communicating with this guy like telling him in an even tone, "I am asking you to lower your voice, change your tone, and stop the vulgarities, or this conversation cannot continue. I refuse to relate to you on this level." And stick to calmly saying that until he stops. If necessary, leave the room; leave the premises, but DO NOT engage at this level even by standing there and enduring it.
This is so off topic, but might I suggest that you arrange to pick up and drop off your child somewhere where this guy isn't present? There is no reason why you should have any contact with him. If he insists on coming around, I'd have a restraining order served on him.
A lot of what you say makes sense again Tzaia. COOL, and thank you.
I had hoped to be clear before, but this group is my EX-splinter group. I was kicked out a few years ago now, so most of this advice does not apply to me anymore even though it may have made a difference once.
But in terms of what was going down, exactly why I stayed, and what I was hoping to accomplish is a very long story and not a current concern of mine.
(added in editing)
I cannot give this thread any more time today, but their is a lot to take in until I may respond. Thank you all again.
My boy is not in their clutches as things worked out. All it took for me to get that accomplished is to tell my divorce mediator exactly what they've done and said.
But right after that particular mediation session was the only time my ex blatantly gave me the classic, "if I could kill you with my eyes it would be now" look.
For me it was easy to get that done, but only after I started talking to folks about what happened.
I've really enjoyed reading the historical facts that you have shared.
And it seems that you have certainly done a good job of calling it as you see it, and I am certain that for you all that sharing was just the tip of the iceberg, so-to-speak.
And even after your years closely associated with top TWI leadership it seems you have done a real good job of looking at things as they really were in spite of the many heart strings and warm feelings you must have made with many individuals over the years.
But from my perspective looking back now it seems obvious that building on Wierwille's example much if not all of TWI's top leadership engaged in a somewhat systematic and years long system of sexual and mental abuse that were usually covered up with such simple platitudes as,"He/she just needs to toughen up to stand on God's word."
And while such things can seem dumbfounding in that we actually bought them, I think it just goes to show how that the whole IDEA of "serving God" can actually be utilized to blind many eyes as to what is really going on in any given situation. Perhaps especially IMO in a case such as TWI where that covering up of Wierwilles' evils became doctrinal and control issues.
Reading your posts, it has kind of saddened me to consider how VPW and others could keep at least somewhat of a veneer of normalcy going on, as evidenced to me by the mostly normal and even heartwarming interactions that you rightly recall.
As someone who has been somewhat victimized by TWI style abuse and control it is very easy to relate to the ones who have had deep and long-lasting wounds from such behavior. And from my perspective using terms as "real jerk at times" when describing Wierwille vicious and aberant behavior, which was definitely in part because he was soooo F'in narcissistic, actually understates the kind of man that his nasty and destructive behavior came from.
But I do definitely appreciate how well you have come to terms with TWI leadership behavior and your seemingly thorough recall of events and impressions as things sit right now.
And while such things can seem dumbfounding in that we actually bought them, I think it just goes to show how that the whole IDEA of "serving God" can actually be utilized to blind many eyes as to what is really going on in any given situation.
All I heard was in ac for grads 95 Rome city,Uncle howard said we killed dr wierwillie,
He died of a broken heart.What a guilt trip.He lost his best friend because we were not believing
for poor old herr wiereillie.Maybe if he (wierwillie) had not smoked and drank so much he would lived longer.
No mention was made od cancer till I came to greasespot.
LOY once ranted about how we were not responsible for killing Jesus-he said he heard someone say all christians are responsible and it ....ed him off. I remember him saying something like 'I didn't kill our lord and savior and went on about how deeply he was offended by that.
I don't believe that either, I just thought it was fundamentaly dumb because we weren't alive when Jesus was here. So I didn't think it merrited ranting along with him. But somehow the ac of 95 cost Howie his best friend? Even dumber. They probably never met vpw.
IMHO leadership wasn't thankful or grateful for all that the believers did for them. They took and took and often gave little back.
IMO when people are spoiled and self centered they blame others for their unhappiness or lack in life.
Like rich kids who hate their parents that gave them everything. No matter how hard we gave and worked, they were never going to be satisfied IMO. They constantly blamed us for things we had no control over so they would not have to take responsibility for the dumb things they said or didn't accomplish.
My boy is not in their clutches as things worked out. All it took for me to get that accomplished is to tell my divorce mediator exactly what they've done and said.
They constantly blamed us for things we had no control over so they would not have to take responsibility for the dumb things they said or didn't accomplish.
So many blame games....but for me, the one that always pi$$ed me off was that us corps DIDN'T STOP THE RAIN at corps week and/or rock of ages. Almost every year from 1981-1985, this confrontation was leveled at us. Of course, the "law of believing" was king.....and since the trustees didn't want rain at this time, it was OUR believing that was at fault.
Oh, and another thing, when Howard Allen said that wierwille actually lived 136 years old (68 X 2) because he lived double of what most men in life do.....I could see that HA was trying to cover for vp's 'sudden' death WITHOUT MENTIONING CANCER.
Yeah....H.E. Wierwille died at 70
........Ermal Owens died at 69
........VPW died at 68
And, 3 of my grandparents died in their 90s, and my maternal grandpa died at 86. Kinda makes one wonder about their so-called "law of believing."
Oh, and another thing, when Howard Allen said that wierwille actually lived 136 years old (68 X 2) because he lived double of what most men in life do.....I could see that HA was trying to cover for vp's 'sudden' death WITHOUT MENTIONING CANCER.
Yeah....H.E. Wierwille died at 70
........Ermal Owens died at 69
........VPW died at 68
And, 3 of my grandparents died in their 90s, and my maternal grandpa died at 86. Kinda makes one wonder about their so-called "law of believing."
So many blame games....but for me, the one that always pi$$ed me off was that us corps DIDN'T STOP THE RAIN at corps week and/or rock of ages. Almost every year from 1981-1985, this confrontation was leveled at us. Of course, the "law of believing" was king.....and since the trustees didn't want rain at this time, it was OUR believing that was at fault.
That continued on different levels for years after that. I was once blamed for it raining too.
i was also once blamed for not knowing where a plant was supposed to go.
We had borrowed a community room to have a meeting. I was on the set up crew meaning we had to reclean everything ahead of time, bring plants etc.
When it was over, we were supposed to leave things better than we found them. We were cleaning again. It was taking forever.
There had been some offices and a lobby attached to this community room. Some of the set up crew had borrowed the plants and put them in the meeting room. One plant was left over that nobody remembered or knew where it had been taken from.
I was confronted for not knowing where the plant was to be returned. I had nothing to do with the plants, I was in the bathrooms cleaning them.
But because I was a FC, I should have been on top of it spiritually and known where the plant was supposed to go. Now we had set a bad witness for the community because the people who worked in the building would come back to work and find the plant out of order.
It didn't matter that we had cleaned everything twice. I had ruined everything by not getting revelation where the plant went. I must have been out of fellowship.
I was tired and sick of cleaning the bathrooms. I sat down in the hallway and cried. i guess I was also spiritually immature.
Maybe we should have had the ROA a different week since it rained every year that week
You are so right.........except, with corps, we NOT ONLY had to believe for the rain to stop during roa, but we had the prior week before roa, corps week, to stop those rain clouds from forming too.
Perhaps, by roa..........our "believing" was pretty much drained out.
Oh, and another thing, when Howard Allen said that wierwille actually lived 136 years old (68 X 2) because he lived double of what most men in life do.....I could see that HA was trying to cover for vp's 'sudden' death WITHOUT MENTIONING CANCER.
. . .
vpw lived double life? If a cult leader was one, what was the other?
LOY once ranted about how we were not responsible for killing Jesus-he said he heard someone say all christians are responsible and it ....ed him off. I remember him saying something like 'I didn't kill our lord and savior and went on about how deeply he was offended by that.
I don't believe that either, I just thought it was fundamentaly dumb because we weren't alive when Jesus was here. So I didn't think it merrited ranting along with him. But somehow the ac of 95 cost Howie his best friend? Even dumber. They probably never met vpw.
IMHO leadership wasn't thankful or grateful for all that the believers did for them. They took and took and often gave little back.
IMO when people are spoiled and self centered they blame others for their unhappiness or lack in life.
Like rich kids who hate their parents that gave them everything. No matter how hard we gave and worked, they were never going to be satisfied IMO. They constantly blamed us for things we had no control over so they would not have to take responsibility for the dumb things they said or didn't accomplish.
So did he say that 1 Cor 15:3 was a blatant forgery? How about Romans 5:8?
So did he say that 1 Cor 15:3 was a blatant forgery? How about Romans 5:8?
Or what, exactly, was his excuse?
Well, I can't speak for him but I am willing to put an excuse down for him just for the fun of it Mark.
LCM's EXCUSE,
He was a stupid college kid that already had a huge ego, abundant potential in his life to be an abuser worthy of anyone who was willing to crush all opposition while becoming a key member in an abusive religious organization, and a foolishness in his heart that would allow him to delude himself into thinking he was the MOG's successor even though he would use his "alpha dog" status to nail chicks in the parking lot if it was dark out, and he would have the kind of unsound judgment in his heart to teach some of the most Gawdawefully stupid doctrines that I can recall at this moment.
HHHMMM, Well I guess looking back at this last paragraph it may not be much of an excuse.
I mean unless you count "stupid", "abuser", "foolishness", and "unsound judgment" to suffice as an excuse.
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Tzaia
I have read several places where the blame for VPW's illness and death lie solely on the "believers" who simply didn't have their minds renewed and operating correctly to keep VPW alive, while at the
Broken Arrow
I contracted cancer myself in 1987 and I was a Corps Grad. I felt a great deal of shame and really questioned my worth as a leader and my effectiveness as a believer. "How could I, a Corps Grad, allow
HCW
I was on staff @ International HQ during the time of VPW's illness & subsequent death. TO answer your questions from my POV: (sorry bout the length of this post - hope the background info fills i
skyrider
newlife.....I think that your recollection of geer's statements are correct.
HOWEVER.....I for one, did not believe his spin for one new york minute. All the pompous substance of pop led back to geer.....all he did, how much he tried, the unending labor he gave, etc. etc. And, time after time, he was so vague in "how to get back to 'the word'".......what a sleight of hand powergrab!!!
Everything benefited Cgeer. Soon region guys were flying over to see him and get the "secret keys" to stay in fellowship to God, etc. Sheeeeesh......people are SO GULLIBLE.
In terms of the infamous church lady........."HOW CONVENIENT."
:blink:
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waysider
The problem with this is that the guy was never a "MOG" to begin with. He was just an arrogant dillweed who happened to hold the reins of a very lucrative MLM organization. He was just pizzed off because he was losing the status he thought he deserved. I guess he thought that playing the sympathy card would help him retain the loyalty of his devotees. And, apparently he was right about that.
"Oh, poor me, I gave my eye for my keeeeeeeds." (cough, hack, wheeze)
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GeorgeStGeorge
I think and important point has been missed in the discussion so far.
Remember that "unbelievers can stop or impair the power of God." (Jesus couldn't do many mighty works in Nazareth; unbelievers were kicked out when children were raised from the dead; etc.) Since Wierwille was the MOGFODAT, it OBVIOUSLY wasn't his believing that was the problem. It MUST have been ours!
George
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waysider
Yeah, I forgot
Page 10
Keys To Walking In The Spirit
#9. It may be essential to put unbelievers out of the room.
I wonder how that fits with:
#1. To receive revelation, you first must become meek.
The dude was the ultimate picture of meekness.
hahahahaha!
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potato
wow, this is an awesome thread. I was recruited right in the middle of the poop paper and the splintering and everyone turned really pro-LCW and there were all kinds of M&As going on. I wanted to learn the bible, so I ignored it, but it ended up having a negative long-term effect on me anyway. the backstory is appreciated.
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HCW
Sure. I've got some thoughts.... but first, Thanks for the kind words.
One thing I've always tried to contribute to these forums discussing TWI is to de-mystify it. Things were very different in the earlier days (pre 1980's) around HQ than out in the field. It was a lot more "real" in the sense that, whereas people respected VP, et. al. there wasn't as much of the demi-gogging worshipping thing there. There were always folk around who had very eye-open
Its funny you should mention LCM, Geer, Howard Allen... All of those guys were known around HQ to be real jerks at times. Others were known & respected for having kinder, gentler personalities. Donnie W. was very laid back, mellow & nice for the most part, at least that was my experience w/ him. The extreme worship thing blew up as the ministry started growing exponentially after the first ROA.
I wouldn't say those guys were "following in VP's" footsteps. When they were acting like jerks it was because they had it in them to be jerks. If anything they were acting in parallel to whatever VP may have been doing.
VP was EXTREMELY high strung. He acted like a REALLY high strung person does when he's in charge. Since he was the boss, he did what he wanted, when he wanted. Much like a child does when they throw a temper tamtrum over the littlest thing that doesn't go their way.
I think the concept of "attributing his outbursts to narcissistic tendencies" is giving him a little bit waaay too much credit in a manner of speaking. Frankly, I think the point is better said by saying, "Man, VP was a REAL jerk at times. No lofty ascertaining of the situation necessary. Just a real world statement.
He acted like a spoiled brat at times, whenever he wanted to.
Why? Because he was the boss, that's why. He bullied a lot of people, a lot of the time. A lot of people were afraid of him because he'd "ream the hell out of you" in public... even over things that weren't such a big deal. Nobody wanted to be humiliated in public. Although "everybody want to be around hime when he was on fire preaching the word. Almost nobody wanted to be around him when he got mad. It was really easy to get him mad sometimes. Sure, some other people acted like him because he did it, but mostly they did it because they had it in themselves to do it. People used VP's weaknesses as an excuse to exploit their own weakness, lack of tact, lack of decorum, or just plain laziness & lack of people skills.
Mrs. Owens started teaching Christian Etiquette - - because we needed it.
An interesting thought, at least to me... is the perspective on TWI from the locals.
The locals NEVER worshipped VPW, not for one stinking moment. Why? They KNEW him, that's why. They grew up with him. I only lived on grounds for the first year I was on staff, '79 - '80. Then again while I was in residence for 1 block, final year in 11th Corps. The rest of the total 8yrs on staff and almost 15yrs in the area, I lived off grounds, with the locals. No Waybrain out in the communities (except when the Wayfers venture out). My oldest daughter actually IS a New Knoxville native. I married a NK girl & lived there long enough to be accepted as part of the NK community, I had season tickets to the HS Basketball game, (seats 4th row @ halfcourt), went to Fall Festival every year, just like everybody else.
Everybody knows everybody in those small towns.
Its wierd to bigger city folk (myself included at first), but we can "smell a wafer a mile away." Why? cause after you've lived there long enough, you know everybody, everybody knows you, you know "everyone" who comes to visit, you know basically why ANYBODY who ever passes through passes through AND basically where anyone's going WHEN they drive by...
You even know how a kid is GOING TO behave in school, because you know his parents, both of them, divorced or not. You know basically how much money everyone has, cause you see them buying their stuff, or see the stuff they had shipped in or brought back from their trip to New York or the Bahamas. You know what house they used to live in before they bought the bigger one, which you knew they would buy when you knew they got their raise, or their new job; or they lost their job. You know cause there are so few people around. You can't help but hear stuff, & say stuff yourself.
That being said, the TWI bull-crap sticks out like a sore thumb when you just stop for a minute, a second even and look at it from REAL world eyes. They look, act & talk different than "we" do.
Example:
VP was intelligent, he could be very nice, but he had a mean, jerky streak. He had a chip on his shoulder. He never wanted to be & act like NK boys do. NK people got mad at him & he wanted to get back at them. He gave the town "the finger" in a lot of ways through the years. (not being so much akin to local traditions, "we" [outsiders] didn't see that, but the locals did). Donnie got mad at his Dad for being a jerk to his Mom. The town got mad at VP cause he didn't follow the traditional path that NK boys do. (You don't start no worldwide ministry on the family farm & bring in "crazies from all over." You just don't do that 'round here.)
BUT. VP wanted (in traditional NK fashion) Donnie to follow in his footsteps in the ministry. Donnie said NO & gave his Dad "the finger" when he left, went to college away from the area & started his adult life in another state. VPW was upset about that & for years begged Donnie to come back (unsuccessfully). After Harry & Ermal died Donnie reluctantly agreed to come back, however, as Vice President. Donnie ran the day to day corporate operations of the ministry. The whole thing of replacing old-timers in staff positions w/ "God Inspired Professionals" was Donnie's thing. He wanted TWI to be "the best corporation in the world."
Freeze frame right there. Check this out.
Mercer County in Ohio (where Celina is), is, per capita the richest county in the state (because of agriculture). New Bremen has Crown Equipment Corp. (a world leader in manufacture of lift trucks, check your local warehouse, there will be a Crown forklift of some sort there.) Minster has Minster Machine (a world class machining company), etc, New Knoxville has Hoge Lumber, (world leader in bowling alleys & stuff like that). The forts man on the moon was from Wapakoneta. All thhose towns surround Nk. Donnie wanted TWI to be bigger & more than "all of the above." Each of those little towns compete w/ each other, always have, always will. When VP talked about hanging out w/ corporate execs at the Indy 500 & stuff while they "bragged about how big" their companies were - - He was talking to and about THEM; the local guys who own those places as well as others. He wanted to say "mine is bigger than yours" to them. (Ambassador one was one of the biggest corporate jets of its day. You can't stand up in the cabin of a lear jet, which is what Crown & those other companies have.
BTW. The former ambassador one pilot was flying for Crown, last I spoke to him. AND Crown bought TWI's mega luxury hangar at NK airport. (poetic justice?)
Vp hacked his son off by what he did to his Mom - - for the sake of the ministry. When Donnie got old enough, he took that ministry from his Dad, used it to set himself & his family for lifetimes & ran it into the ground. He built it & set it up financially so that it is "self propagating, self sustaining, etc." All that lingo came from Donnie, not VP. The money to run TWI will never run out, as long as they do the minimum to keep the door open it'll "run forever." The "innie-est" insiders have money for life. Your money, your freewill offerings (sweet gig if you can get it.)
Other folk were (and still are) just cannibalizing off of it. Unfortunately there were many thousands who involved themselves w/ TWi for the right reasons all along the way. God's Word was our "product" at TWI. Minster sells Machines, New Bremen sells forklifts, Celina sells "farm stuff" St. Marys hosts industries, TWi sells GOD. Problem is, God is NOT for SALE. He don't like what we did either.
Whose "fault" was it? I wondered for years just what the deal with TWI was. Now all its coming together for me and it can be summed up in these few scriptures:
If TWi was of God ever, it would BE of God, now and still. There are so many out there who know so much more about the old days than I do. I know just enough to know that there have always been cracks in the TWi ministry. There have always been good and Godly people in TWi. In my opinion God blessed VP and TWI for a while because His Word IS true and at least some of us actually had it in our hearts to teach it accurately with integrity. After the dust settled w/Vp's death TWi got rid of us, all of us who wouldn't leave on our own, some were escorted off the grounds by armed guards (some of whom I trained in some basic martial arts).
However; regarding VP....
VP's heart wasn't "broken" if anything, it was destroyed by his own sin. It was his fault, He knew that. Why else would he have gone around as he did having Harve sing that dreadful song. "I wish I were the man I know to be." I don't think he was "Dr. Evil," just sinful.
Like I said before, "Woe unto him."
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skyrider
HCW.....lots of good points, thanks.
I, too, saw much of what you noted in the above post.....but really, I think to understand wierwille one has to go back to his childhood, school years, early influences and other mens' ministries, of which, wierwille envied and crafted and copied. Mrs. Wierwille's book is a twi-sanitized version of vpw.....but if one read's between the lines, it's quite easy to see that vpw was a dull 'reflected glory' when contrasted with some of the contempory men that are spotlighted.
IMO.....what shaped wierwille happened long ago. Why did wierwille want to be 'the best?' Where did his narcissist drive come from? Was Ernst Wierwille, vpw's dad, an alcoholic and abuser as some have claimed? And, after vpw had "received the best education that money could buy"......was he guilt-ridden to REPAY his father with kind tributes and driven to show the family that he was worthy of this educational expense?
Most of us ex-twiers only encountered wierwille by 1975 or so........BUT BY THEN, HE WAS NEARLY 60 YEARS OLD.
I, for one, believe that most people's social/religious/phychological viewpoints and purpose-driven prejudices are shaped and fortified in their 20s, 30s, and 40s. In Mrs. Wierwille's book....the opening paragraph, "The Wierwille family ancestry can be traced as far back as the 1300's to a small town in northern France called Vierville-sur-Mer, translated "Wierwille by the Sea." These Viervilles were Huguenots, a group of French Protestants who staunchly resisted Roman Catholic attempts to dominate the religious and social life of France. In the sixteenth and seventeenth centuries, many Huguenots left France to escape religious persecution, the Viervilles among them." Was this heritage something that his parents lauded to the young wierwille? Did it shape his young mind?
And....how often did we hear the pontificating of the wierwille heritage? All the corps meetings....all those campfire settings.....the wierwille barn and homestead, his childhood, his rebellion, his schooling, etc. etc? Then comes the 'spiritual men'......E. Stanley Jones, Rufus Moseley, Glenn Clark, BG Leonard, EW Kenyon, Starr Daily, Bishop KC Pillai, George M. Lamsa. And, those are just the main guys that wierwille measured himself against.
But, we also know that wierwille was lazy. As a child, he neglected chores....he hid in the woods to avoid working. In academics, he cut corners. He plagairezed other mens' work. While he "might have wanted something"......he was a fraud. He was chameleon-like.
It seems to me......that wierwille was always trying to measure up to what he wanted "the man in the mirror" to be. He wanted to live like these spiritual men.....he wanted to be included in this "men's club of spiritual elite....he wanted to think that he was God's best. So, he spent a lifetime in trying to prove it.....but failed. In the end, he "wished he were the man he knew to be." Does that mean, he "wished" that he could measure up to those other men? Does that mean he "wished" he would be more Christ like? No matter......in the end, I believe that wierwille could not forsake sin. And, all the parlor games of "you are righteous now"....never could replace the conviction of what the scriptures truly stated.
So much could be said........but, in the end, wierwille came face-to-face with his own "law of believing" when he had his eye removed and cancer. And therein, he was facing his structure of beliefs and his own sin nature. The reflected image in wierwille's mirror was the image that he'd been running from his whole life. He had become what he despised, and yet embraced.
Wierwille made his choices in life, like we all do......one by one. He chose to plagairize his contemporaries. He chose to leave his Van Wert pastorate and strike out on his own......his narcissism couldn't be boxed in by a church structure. He chose to go to India and write his little booklet to strike against the missionary set-up. He chose to steal Rev. BG Leonard's class in 1953 and never give any credit in his later pfal classes. Etc. Etc.
Sometimes, I think......the man was chasing ghosts his whole life.
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HCW
Thanks Sky. You bring up some great points too, really solid thinking & observation.
...And the vast majority of "most of us" were just kids then. I was first exposed to TWi sometime, I think it was late summer, early fall of 1974 I was around 15 with all of the incredible insight of a smart teenager. (!) I also think we made some general assumptions about VP - perhaps based on the dichotomy of "our" age(s) vs his & the differing stages of life. "We were basically kids & we thought he was mature, adult, fatherly & accomplished. After all, he was "Dr."
"The Groovy Christians of Rye New York" thing was around 1970, & the whole west coast thing before that w/ Jimm!e Do*p & company... young people, teens, 20-somethings for the most part. As TWi history played out, we come to find out that VP had already done probably irreparable damage to the ministry in its "toddler years." A good bit of the core ministry leadership came out of those two groups of young people.
I don't know a whole lot about the riff that happened out on the west coast & most of the players; our paths seldom crossed through the years. However, it could be said that they & we, who came along around the era you mentioned. Skyrider, built TWi on a huge crack. It was only filled w/ spackle. I don't think the wounds that happened then ever really healed.
I was a part of the "next wave" of staffers. I was schooled & had a degree & some actual talent suited for the job @ HQ. Prior to that time a good bit of staff positions were filled by "people with a heart to do" what they were doing.
One of my constant peeves about HQ was how we, as a corporation, were like the "Maverick" character from the movie "Top Gun." The corporation wrote checks with our mouth that our performance couldn't cash. Yeah, as we grew there were certain departments, individuals who had the chops to compete with "the best" in the world at what they did, but overall... I don't think so. Coming from a real metropolitan area, having rubbed shoulders with, been taught by, worked for & interned with REAL world class professionals; I knew what they looked like. When I came on staff I aspired to ONE DAY BECOME, a truly God Inspired Professional, I wanted to grow & develop into a world class operation for God. However, just because we mailed & shipped our stuff around the world, that fact alone didn't make it "world class."
Point being, the "man VP knew to be" knew that at best TWi was a work in progress, a fantastic idea with huge potential. "He" had to know that the true order for the day was to be patient with the growth of the ministry, not rushing things as it were to build "God's Ministry" as a Godly corporation. We had a real opportunity to do something really big. Problem was that to do it right, as you said, he was nearly 60 in '75 when HQ was a bean farm & we were still doing ROA at a smelly fairgrounds in Sidney.... not world class conditions.
In our youthful haste, we overlooked Way too much. We projected our own dreams of what TWi COULD be and started living it as if we were, but we weren't. As people fell off along The Way, we mimicked VP's angry arrogance I said THEY were wrong.
Look at what time has told...
VP had little patience where it really mattered. I believe God have been happy to bless a venture like that. Its sad.
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JeffSjo
A lot of what you say makes sense again Tzaia. COOL, and thank you.
I had hoped to be clear before, but this group is my EX-splinter group. I was kicked out a few years ago now, so most of this advice does not apply to me anymore even though it may have made a difference once.
But in terms of what was going down, exactly why I stayed, and what I was hoping to accomplish is a very long story and not a current concern of mine.
(added in editing)
I cannot give this thread any more time today, but their is a lot to take in until I may respond. Thank you all again.
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JeffSjo
And one more thing Tzaia,
My boy is not in their clutches as things worked out. All it took for me to get that accomplished is to tell my divorce mediator exactly what they've done and said.
But right after that particular mediation session was the only time my ex blatantly gave me the classic, "if I could kill you with my eyes it would be now" look.
For me it was easy to get that done, but only after I started talking to folks about what happened.
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JeffSjo
Dear HCW,
I've really enjoyed reading the historical facts that you have shared.
And it seems that you have certainly done a good job of calling it as you see it, and I am certain that for you all that sharing was just the tip of the iceberg, so-to-speak.
And even after your years closely associated with top TWI leadership it seems you have done a real good job of looking at things as they really were in spite of the many heart strings and warm feelings you must have made with many individuals over the years.
But from my perspective looking back now it seems obvious that building on Wierwille's example much if not all of TWI's top leadership engaged in a somewhat systematic and years long system of sexual and mental abuse that were usually covered up with such simple platitudes as,"He/she just needs to toughen up to stand on God's word."
And while such things can seem dumbfounding in that we actually bought them, I think it just goes to show how that the whole IDEA of "serving God" can actually be utilized to blind many eyes as to what is really going on in any given situation. Perhaps especially IMO in a case such as TWI where that covering up of Wierwilles' evils became doctrinal and control issues.
Reading your posts, it has kind of saddened me to consider how VPW and others could keep at least somewhat of a veneer of normalcy going on, as evidenced to me by the mostly normal and even heartwarming interactions that you rightly recall.
As someone who has been somewhat victimized by TWI style abuse and control it is very easy to relate to the ones who have had deep and long-lasting wounds from such behavior. And from my perspective using terms as "real jerk at times" when describing Wierwille vicious and aberant behavior, which was definitely in part because he was soooo F'in narcissistic, actually understates the kind of man that his nasty and destructive behavior came from.
But I do definitely appreciate how well you have come to terms with TWI leadership behavior and your seemingly thorough recall of events and impressions as things sit right now.
JEFF
(edited for spelling)
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Broken Arrow
Well said JeffSjo...very well said.
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crystalclearblue
LOY once ranted about how we were not responsible for killing Jesus-he said he heard someone say all christians are responsible and it ....ed him off. I remember him saying something like 'I didn't kill our lord and savior and went on about how deeply he was offended by that.
I don't believe that either, I just thought it was fundamentaly dumb because we weren't alive when Jesus was here. So I didn't think it merrited ranting along with him. But somehow the ac of 95 cost Howie his best friend? Even dumber. They probably never met vpw.
IMHO leadership wasn't thankful or grateful for all that the believers did for them. They took and took and often gave little back.
IMO when people are spoiled and self centered they blame others for their unhappiness or lack in life.
Like rich kids who hate their parents that gave them everything. No matter how hard we gave and worked, they were never going to be satisfied IMO. They constantly blamed us for things we had no control over so they would not have to take responsibility for the dumb things they said or didn't accomplish.
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potato
hey, that's some very good news, JeffSjo!
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skyrider
So many blame games....but for me, the one that always pi$$ed me off was that us corps DIDN'T STOP THE RAIN at corps week and/or rock of ages. Almost every year from 1981-1985, this confrontation was leveled at us. Of course, the "law of believing" was king.....and since the trustees didn't want rain at this time, it was OUR believing that was at fault.
Oh, and another thing, when Howard Allen said that wierwille actually lived 136 years old (68 X 2) because he lived double of what most men in life do.....I could see that HA was trying to cover for vp's 'sudden' death WITHOUT MENTIONING CANCER.
Yeah....H.E. Wierwille died at 70
........Ermal Owens died at 69
........VPW died at 68
And, 3 of my grandparents died in their 90s, and my maternal grandpa died at 86. Kinda makes one wonder about their so-called "law of believing."
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WordWolf
Now that's shameless.
He redefined a NUMBER.
How's THAT for avoiding reality?
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crystalclearblue
That continued on different levels for years after that. I was once blamed for it raining too.
i was also once blamed for not knowing where a plant was supposed to go.
We had borrowed a community room to have a meeting. I was on the set up crew meaning we had to reclean everything ahead of time, bring plants etc.
When it was over, we were supposed to leave things better than we found them. We were cleaning again. It was taking forever.
There had been some offices and a lobby attached to this community room. Some of the set up crew had borrowed the plants and put them in the meeting room. One plant was left over that nobody remembered or knew where it had been taken from.
I was confronted for not knowing where the plant was to be returned. I had nothing to do with the plants, I was in the bathrooms cleaning them.
But because I was a FC, I should have been on top of it spiritually and known where the plant was supposed to go. Now we had set a bad witness for the community because the people who worked in the building would come back to work and find the plant out of order.
It didn't matter that we had cleaned everything twice. I had ruined everything by not getting revelation where the plant went. I must have been out of fellowship.
I was tired and sick of cleaning the bathrooms. I sat down in the hallway and cried. i guess I was also spiritually immature.
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Oakspear
Maybe we should have had the ROA a different week since it rained every year that week
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skyrider
You are so right.........except, with corps, we NOT ONLY had to believe for the rain to stop during roa, but we had the prior week before roa, corps week, to stop those rain clouds from forming too.
Perhaps, by roa..........our "believing" was pretty much drained out.
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potato
that's why in twi, 2+2=5.
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Bolshevik
vpw lived double life? If a cult leader was one, what was the other?
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waysider
Looking back, it's so hard believing that stuff really happened.
Unfortunately-------It did!
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markomalley
So did he say that 1 Cor 15:3 was a blatant forgery? How about Romans 5:8?
Or what, exactly, was his excuse?
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JeffSjo
Well, I can't speak for him but I am willing to put an excuse down for him just for the fun of it Mark.
LCM's EXCUSE,
He was a stupid college kid that already had a huge ego, abundant potential in his life to be an abuser worthy of anyone who was willing to crush all opposition while becoming a key member in an abusive religious organization, and a foolishness in his heart that would allow him to delude himself into thinking he was the MOG's successor even though he would use his "alpha dog" status to nail chicks in the parking lot if it was dark out, and he would have the kind of unsound judgment in his heart to teach some of the most Gawdawefully stupid doctrines that I can recall at this moment.
HHHMMM, Well I guess looking back at this last paragraph it may not be much of an excuse.
I mean unless you count "stupid", "abuser", "foolishness", and "unsound judgment" to suffice as an excuse.
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