The splinter group business

[Twinky]

Don't think these splinter groups are confined to the US, either. It's world wide.

1 Corinthians 14:2626 How is it then, brethren? when ye come together, every one of you hath a psalm, hath a doctrine, hath a tongue, hath a revelation, hath an interpretation...hath a splinter group... Let all things be done unto edifying.

(with apologies)

[Bolshevik]

I have an idea,

everyone who wants in on it send me a check made out to "Bolshevik" for $100-$1000, depending on how much you want to help others.

When I get the check I'll send you a letter explaining what the plan is.

:P

[waysider]

I need one of these to help me keep my mind free for moving Da Verd.

Toss a bottle of "Turkey" in the glove box and we're good to go.

Edited September 1, 2009 by waysider

[Ham]

umm.. your pontiac bonneville didn't quite show up..

:)

while you are tooling about in the Bonneville for secret rendevous in New Breman and St. Mary's, you need a few of these to chug down..

Edited September 1, 2009 by Ham

[waysider]

umm.. your pontiac bonneville didn't quite show up..

:)

while you are tooling about in the Bonneville for secret rendevous in New Breman and St. Mary's, you need a few of these to chug down..

Why limit the cruising to Smallsville?

The capitol's only a couple hours away.

Lots of chicks to impress there.

Even the married ones jump at the chance to glide around town in style while hubby's away at work.

HERE

[waysider]

One of these might help ease the stress, too.

I get my best revelation on an open stretch of country road.

[tonto]

"Another one:

San Diego Biblical Studies Fellowship"

We happened to be in the corps with this guy and his family and for what it's worth, he/they were good-hearted people who weren't on the take. They seemed to really want to help other people. We haven't communicated with them in over 20 years, so who knows how they've changed and whether or not they ever sat down and took a hard look at vp & co. Either way, it's still hard to believe that there are so many groups out there still doing this.

[penworks]

"Another one:

San Diego Biblical Studies Fellowship"

We happened to be in the corps with this guy and his family and for what it's worth, he/they were good-hearted people who weren't on the take. They seemed to really want to help other people. We haven't communicated with them in over 20 years, so who knows how they've changed and whether or not they ever sat down and took a hard look at vp & co. Either way, it's still hard to believe that there are so many groups out there still doing this.

While it's possible to be good hearted, not abusive, not "on the take," which the people running this group very well may be, that is beside the point IMO. It is still possible to be misled, and then, although you didn't originate the doctrines you perpetuate, be held responsible for continuing to propound those doctrines as "truth."

My questions about doing this are many. Some are:

Is this the best way to help people?

Is "The Word" so plainly obvious for all to see?

If so, why are there so many divergent groups and interpretations?

These are old questions, I know.

IMO, it's important to keep in mind that just because people start a spin-off of TWI does not imply they are bad people. What I do think it does show or seem to indicate is that are still convinced they were taught "the accuracy of the Bible" by VPW. To me that fact is important to know when considering how to evaluate a spin-off or whether or not to "join" it.

[skyrider]

While it's possible to be good hearted, not abusive, not "on the take," which the people running this group very well may be, that is beside the point IMO. It is still possible to be misled, and then, although you didn't originate the doctrines you perpetuate, be held responsible for continuing to propound those doctrines as "truth."

My questions about doing this are many. Some are:

Is this the best way to help people?

Is "The Word" so plainly obvious for all to see?

If so, why are there so many divergent groups and interpretations?

These are old questions, I know.

IMO, it's important to keep in mind that just because people start a spin-off of TWI does not imply they are bad people. What I do think it does show or seem to indicate is that are still convinced they were taught "the accuracy of the Bible" by VPW. To me that fact is important to know when considering how to evaluate a spin-off or whether or not to "join" it.

Penworks.....lots of good points, thanks.

Although many of these spin-offs are "convinced that they were taught the accuracy of the bible by vpw".....I often think that MANY had invested 14-18 years [before the 1988 exodus] into this "bible instruction" and were, now, in their mid-30s with family in tow. THEREFORE, the path to paying the bills and the path of least resistance was to KEEP ON KEEPIN' ON THE SAME CLASS/TAPE ORIENTED STRUCTURE.

By tweaking things just a little here, a little there.......and a new "class" is made. Sound familiar? Of course, it does.......Leonard's 1953 class, The Gifts of the Spirit, was tweaked into "pfal" by wierwille. And, with today's technology.....these spin-offs might possibly be spin-offs of former spin-offs.

Sure people change thru the years, I know. But I can't help but remember "Dr. Mich@el Gud0rf" spending alot of time napping on his interim year at hq and rarily seeing him volunteer for anything. hahahahahahahaha

[tonto]

"IMO, it's important to keep in mind that just because people start a spin-off of TWI does not imply they are bad people. What I do think it does show or seem to indicate is that are still convinced they were taught "the accuracy of the Bible" by VPW. To me that fact is important to know when considering how to evaluate a spin-off or whether or not to "join" it."

Amen and amen, Penworks. Didn't mean to imply that any spin-off is worthy of joining...just that there is a difference between a Chris G**r and a Bob Li^dF#lt...CG being fully aware of the evil vp did, and BL being perhaps willfully ignorant. I believe they're both wrong for adhering to vp's version of the bible. It's just that I think CG would deserve a big "X" on the ol' sin chart...

The thought of anyone previously associated with twi getting money from the "god business" turns my stomach.

[geisha779]

While it's possible to be good hearted, not abusive, not "on the take," which the people running this group very well may be, that is beside the point IMO. It is still possible to be misled, and then, although you didn't originate the doctrines you perpetuate, be held responsible for continuing to propound those doctrines as "truth."

My questions about doing this are many. Some are:

Is this the best way to help people?

Is "The Word" so plainly obvious for all to see?

If so, why are there so many divergent groups and interpretations?

These are old questions, I know.

IMO, it's important to keep in mind that just because people start a spin-off of TWI does not imply they are bad people. What I do think it does show or seem to indicate is that are still convinced they were taught "the accuracy of the Bible" by VPW. To me that fact is important to know when considering how to evaluate a spin-off or whether or not to "join" it.

Most Christian denominations all adhere to the same core doctrines. . . . there is diversity sometimes even within the same denomination. . . . and many of these are reform movements. It is not always a bad or confusing thing. . . .at all. It doesn't have to indicate disunity(is that a word?) either. Most differences are in the expression of the same faith. . . .some sprinkle. . some dunk. . . but, most baptize.

Christianity is a person centered faith. It's focus is Jesus Christ.

Christians believe that He is the way, the truth, and the life. . . . not the book, the book is a means to learn more about Him and help to build a relationship with the person.

With groups like TWI and it's offshoots it is a book centered faith with a divergence from Christianity in understanding of who Jesus Christ is. . . .The gospel is not actually something for us to do, but it tells of something that was done for us. . . . these groups work so hard at understanding the "word" . . . as if the relationship is with "it".

I wish they would all just find a nice bible centered church and decompress. . . . that is not likely to happen as ex-way cannot fully participate in church. . . they don't hold to the same beliefs about Christ.

That IMHO is part of the insidious nature of TWI. . .

[waysider]

If they're still teaching the TWI doctrine of "The Law of Believing", it's your cue to distance yourself. That is, perhaps, the single most destructive doctrine these splinters all seem to have in common.----IMO

[penworks]

I agree that the so-called Law of Believing is a major problem that keeps being propounded. But I would go further than that. IMO it's the underlying assumption that the Bible has all the answers to life's problems and must be without error.

Due to the preliferation of spin-off groups based on VPW's research, I'd say the indoctrination techniques in TWI, particularly regarding research, were more powerful than some people might think.

Here's a good example: From The Cult that Snapped by Karl Kahler:

Bible Lands research issues

[Ham]

in my brief "stint" in even a relatively BENIGN offshoot.. I've seen what happens when a "follower" applies the "law of believing" in "reverse". That it, "where was so and so's (one of the big leaders of said offshoot) "believing" when they died, or succumbed to a terrible disease.. or.." experienced some other such "negative" in the world..

it does not go well. For the "follower" that is. One might never see or hear from them, again.

[Ham]

the general "principle" of any offshoots seems to be.. at least in my personal observation..

"we don't air our dirty laundry".

why not?

"it'd give da product, ahem, da *word* a bad reputation".

God forbid that we would want the "world" to think we were ahem, "wrong"..

just seems to me.. if the "product" is so stinky, mouldy and mildewed that a little exposure of light of day can't "fix".. isn't it time to find a new product?

[waysider]

Hey, kids!!

Be the first on your block to have your very own cult!!

[Ham]

One of my childhood memories.. neighbor had coats and clothing that were in a damp place.. he hauled them out and put them on the clothes line (they used to have them)..

me being a snot nosed young wascal

"WHATCHA DOOOOIN, neighbor?"

putting this moldy crap out so the sunlight can kill the mold..

"OOOOOOO, O, K...."

what a lot of these offshoot "morons" (excuse me, no better description I can come up with) can't figure out is, light really doesn't kill truth.

I suppose if one just happens to BE the mold, they might have a few objections..

Edited September 2, 2009 by Ham

[Ham]

Leave it to Google ads to come up with the *best* solution..

every offshoot needs a few of these..

http://www.jenesco.com/mold-and-mildew.html?gclid=CJmw4-P_05wCFQ8MDQodw0wUIg

[ljn698]

we could call this thread

"get rich quick in the God racket"

ya know it wasn't uncommon for

some limb and territory coordinators to

refer to themselves (jokingly of course)

as "Cult leaders"

even some corp grads who weren't

coordinating much more than a twig

did the same thing

if there's one thing i learned

during my tenure as a "dedicated follower"

(just 'cause i couldn't be a "member")

it's that it's better not to follow anybody

but rather make up your own mind

[Twinky]

You know some of you are being unnecessarily cruel here. It's quite clear that some of the smaller "offshoots" are run by what appear to be still Waybrained (probably) Corps.

But on the other hand, a number of them may well be run by Corps who left of their own volition, or were kicked out, and they have taken the time to reassess what was taught and to evaluate the whole shebang. It doesn't mean they are regurgitating PFAL. And it doesn't mean they are demanding "tithes" from people attending their fellowships. Just because they don't fit into some "established" church doesn't automatically mean that they are mini-TWIs. There's rubbish that's taught and abuse that occurs in mainstream churches, too.

Most people entered the Corps because they really did love God and love to help people. Many still do. And because they choose to have people over to fellowship at their homes doesn't mean they are promoting TWI rubbish. (Not everything in PFAL is rubbish; if it had been, none of us would have been sucked in!) Maybe they have learned a lot about compassion, what not to do and about real practical application of the Bible. Maybe they have learned what it is to be isolated from other Christians and in fact they work to promote exploration of other Christian beliefs.

...Perhaps it depends on how high up the "Way tree" they climbed. I'm sure we all knew some decent folks and would gladly spend time with them and would consider they had something they could teach and share. We all also knew some bad folks who it would be wise to run a mile from.

[Ham]

You might be right.. but so far, I've observed the same arrogant attitude "we've got the majority of truth" in even the most benign offshoots I've had any dealings with..

I saw one guy just kind of disappear not to be heard from again.. along with a "damage control" session to shift the blame of lack of results of the great "law" of believing on HIM.. so what, some bigwig got sick and died.. so what the "law" apparently didn't work.. what about THIS character.. his "problems" were a result of a lack of "believing" in every stinking action he took.. and his sole question.. if the "law" was really that reliable, how could an "expert" in "believing" succumb to such a "negative" outcome.

I would say it was a heart's cry for answers.. and how was it dealt with..

and this was what most here consider a relatively benign offshoot.

after seeing this, and the overt arrogance of STIFFI.. I am not in the least bit interested in any offshoot..

I partly agree with one poster's estimation: most share the "spiritual dna" of the parent organization. I'm not saying its impossible.. but so far, they seem to share the same doctrine, the same fruit..

the only ones I know of exempt of this arrogance, abandoned this crap, and hooked up with.. God forbid.. CHURCHES.. denominations..

[GrouchoMarxJr]

Twinky...I wasn't talking about sincere folks who meet together in someone's house for Christian fellowship or prayer meetings or whatever...I was talking about those who learned the formula for starting a business...the God business that generates revenue through people's belief systems.

I'm sure there are many ex twi folks who endeavor to lead good Christians lives...but there are others who feed their bellies and their egos by lording over and taking advantage of others...thanks to the example that Vic set.

[RumRunner]

HA! wasn't it drunken VIc who said sincerity is no guarantee for truth? Any "so-called" xtian who asks me for money, promises me peace or some other nebulous fulfillment, quotes the bible at me to tell me how to live is nothing more than a scam in my book. Jesus said to love god with all your heart soul mind and strength - I didn't hear anything about money, attending classes, attending home fellowships etc in there...and thank you very much - I don't need a songbook, a horn of plenty, a splinter group con-job to tell me how to love god

I don't think Groucho was cruel - I think he is simply honest about the actual cruelty of the "leadership" so-called - of splinter group multi-level marketing of Jesus.

Twinky...I wasn't talking about sincere folks who meet together in someone's house for Christian fellowship or prayer meetings or whatever...I was talking about those who learned the formula for starting a business...the God business that generates revenue through people's belief systems.

I'm sure there are many ex twi folks who endeavor to lead good Christians lives...but there are others who feed their bellies and their egos by lording over and taking advantage of others...thanks to the example that Vic set.

[Twinky]

Okay, I think we're singing from the same songsheet.

[geisha779]

Twinky,

I mentioned finding a nice bible believing church. I didn't say it to be mean. . . .at all. I really do want deliverance for all ex-twi. . . .we have much to be delivered from.

There are qualified overseers in good churches who can help ex-cult members. It wasn't an indictment on anyone's love for God. . . . more on the indoctrination into false teaching we were all subject to.

Even the attempt to run an off-shoot implies to me there is still some need for isolation. It is also actually like running a church. . .and the scriptures are clear there are specific qualifications for doing this. I am of the opinion that when someone teaches the bible. . . doctrine does matter. . . or we still end up in the same cycle of apostasy.

If someone has gone to seminary or an accredited bible college and studied with qualified teachers and is working within the framework of a Christian church where there is accountability. . . that is one thing, but an offshoot implies something else entirely.

Iron sharpens iron and who you are worshipping with and learning from does matter. At least in my opinion. But, that is not a judgment. . .just common sense.

I didn't suggest a church with garbage being taught or bad things going on. . . I am aware this happens. . . but, in a TWI offshoot it is always going to happen. This is because what it is an offshoot from, is still bad.

This is just my opinion, but I wanted you to know it didn't come from malice, it is from genuine care about those who have been exposed and influenced by TWI. I really do believe that people who have come through TWI, at least many, have a real fervor for God. . . want so much to know. . . and understand.

Some of the brightest and best people really . . . . I truly believe this. . . I love ex-way. . . special people. . . I don't think we are a bunch of ex-cult losers, but I do think we need to integrate into the Christian church and learn from those who never got tricked to begin with. There are wonderful people in churches who really know the Lord and have served Him without rancor. We did get caught up in something really rancorous. They are not perfect, but we only look to one for perfection.

My opinion. :)

Edited September 5, 2009 by geisha779