Does it ever occur to anyone (other than me, I guess), that maybe, just maybe, there's a finite amount of wisdom that can be gleaned from The Bible? What, 66 books, a lot of which are nothing more than letters - and not even particularly long letters, and the Jewish and Christian communities have dedicated CENTURIES, nay MILLENNIA, and untold resources, Universities, Institutes, countless committees and groups, and even more individuals, to examining every jot and tittle (quite literally) of this one manuscript? You'd think that maybe we'd have gotten a handle on it by now, wouldn't you? But NOOOOOO!
We have to have a whole bunch more pencil-necked geeks to instruct us in what The Bible REALLY says! And, evidently, we need more every few days!
Does it ever occur to anyone (other than me, I guess), that maybe, just maybe, there's a finite amount of wisdom that can be gleaned from The Bible? What, 66 books, a lot of which are nothing more than letters - and not even particularly long letters, and the Jewish and Christian communities have dedicated CENTURIES, nay MILLENNIA, and untold resources, Universities, Institutes, countless committees and groups, and even more individuals, to examining every jot and tittle (quite literally) of this one manuscript? You'd think that maybe we'd have gotten a handle on it by now, wouldn't you? But NOOOOOO!
We have to have a whole bunch more pencil-necked geeks to instruct us in what The Bible REALLY says! And, evidently, we need more every few days!
Oh Gawd, it's all so lame...
Do you feel the same way about the works of Shakespeare, Homer, Plato, Socrates? How about the art of Michaelangelo? You know, Beethoven, Mozart and Bach have been played a lot over the centuries. I wonder why musicians continue to play their music? I mean, after all, don't we all know what it's supposed to sound like what with recordings and all. One book about Abraham Lincoln should suffice don't you think? And for crying out loud, how many more movies do we need about WWII? Hey people, America won..o.k.? Oh Gawd, it's all so lame...Let's get on to more important things like video games, drive-thru cheeseburgers and what college football team will finish number 1.
Does it ever occur to anyone (other than me, I guess), that maybe, just maybe, there's a finite amount of wisdom that can be gleaned from The Bible? What, 66 books, a lot of which are nothing more than letters - and not even particularly long letters, and the Jewish and Christian communities have dedicated CENTURIES, nay MILLENNIA, and untold resources, Universities, Institutes, countless committees and groups, and even more individuals, to examining every jot and tittle (quite literally) of this one manuscript? You'd think that maybe we'd have gotten a handle on it by now, wouldn't you? But NOOOOOO!
We have to have a whole bunch more pencil-necked geeks to instruct us in what The Bible REALLY says! And, evidently, we need more every few days!
Oh Gawd, it's all so lame...
You might be interested in reading, The End of Biblical Studies by Hector Avalos.
I read the link and I find it interesting how so many apply one standard to the Bible and Christianity and then another to everything else. Why isn't this esteemed professor calling for end of studying the Q'ran, or the Kuma Sutra, or the works of Buddha for the same reasons. I'm getting a bit off topic so let me bring it back.
These splinter groups are simply regurgitating an interpretation (some would say a perversion) of the Bible. Personally I think they're trying to re-live their glory days as youths. They're simply offering the same stuff repackaged and it's pathetic, really, as well as very sad.
However, that is not to be confused with legitimate Bible study or for seeking truth within the Bible. Many find comfort, encouragement and peace through Bible study even after all these centuries.
What good is knowing the "truth" if you don't do anything with it? It's really not an end in itself, or at least shouldn't be when it comes to being a follower of Jesus.
You know, Beethoven, Mozart and Bach have been played a lot over the centuries. I wonder why musicians continue to play their music? I mean, after all, don't we all know what it's supposed to sound like what with recordings and all.
I think this particular comparison is a bit oblique.
We (musicians) don't play Beethoven, Mozart and Bach because we want to come to a greater "understanding" of them or because we think we may have "misinterpreted" a specific passage. We play their works, ultimately, because they have the ability to evoke an emotional response that touches the human psyche in a way that is both universal and timeless. Of course, students of said composers do play their works with a view toward broader understanding but that is only a means to the stated end. And, unlike the bible business, these works are open to a certain degree of "private interpretation". There is no "one and only" true way to interpret their many nuances.
So, we don't play them to discover what they sound like. We play them because we already know what they sound like and we want to be a part of the effect it evokes. You could probably apply the same logic to a local bar band playing well worn "covers".
And, unlike the bible business, these works are open to a certain degree of "private interpretation". There is no "one and only" true way to interpret their many nuances.
That's the common fallacy - if there were one and only true way to interpret scriptures, there wouldn't be any discussion about truth as it would be self evident.
That's the common fallacy - if there were one and only true way to interpret scriptures, there wouldn't be any discussion about truth as it would be self evident.
Exactly.
That's why I said "the bible business", not "the bible" itself.
I think this particular comparison is a bit oblique.
We (musicians) don't play Beethoven, Mozart and Bach because we want to come to a greater "understanding" of them or because we think we may have "misinterpreted" a specific passage. We play their works, ultimately, because they have the ability to evoke an emotional response that touches the human psyche in a way that is both universal and timeless. Of course, students of said composers do play their works with a view toward broader understanding but that is only a means to the stated end. And, unlike the bible business, these works are open to a certain degree of "private interpretation". There is no "one and only" true way to interpret their many nuances.
So, we don't play them to discover what they sounds like. We play them because we already know what they sounds like and we want to be a part of the effect it evokes. You could probably apply the same logic to a local bar band playing well worn "covers".
My comparison may be oblique. My comments were in response to someone who, at least to me, was criticizing Bible study itself. He seemed to be criticizing Jews and Christians to dedicating so much time to studying what they believe is Truth because the writings had been around for so long. My argument is that it makes at least as much sense to study ancient writings as it does to study any ancient work be it art, literature, history or whatever.
But since you brought it up, I think you musicians do play works of the masters to come to a greater understanding of them. At least in the context of getting in touch with the emotion the master composer was trying to convey and then of course...convey it. In addition (I realize I am now getting etherial) one might use certain music (i.e. baroque) to get in touch with the emotions inside one's self. Also, it would seem to me that if one wanted to become a master composer, they would be foolish to not learn the masters. The same holds true with all of the arts, that is, literature, visual arts, and the like. I hope that eliminates at least some of my "obliqueness".
My criticism of "Biblical Research" really has nothing to do with the average person who desires to read and/or study it, but the apparently deeprooted idea that there's some sort of wealth of secret knowledge to be unlocked there if we only avail ourselves of the right teacher or the revolutionary new curriculum. I dare say that, if after the 2 millenia or so that the texts have been scoured over, inside and out, upside and down, preceived from every imaginable viewpoint, that if there's anything really new or enlightening to be gleaned from the text, the author must have gone to extreme lengths to make the contents as inscrutable as possible. That hardly seems reasonable, does it?
Can you think of a passage, a word, or even a syllable of Biblical text that hasn't been analyzed to death by now? Doesn't it seem just a little bit arrogant to think that any meaning we may ferret out of some text must have been glossed over - or missed entirely - by the many thousands of people who poured over texts (often much closer to "original" source material than we have today), and maybe even dedicated their entire lives to their study?
And to answer your other points, no I can't think of any subject thats been as overworked as the Bible. Maybe the Q'ran or the Bhagavagita, or The Book of the Dead or some other "holy" writ gets similar attention in countries that follow those dogmas, and if so, it's equally misguided.
I guess it's still a sore subject for me when I look back at all the wasted years chasing after some sort of enlightenment from the pack of Bible thumpers that were The WAY's management. What did we get for all that time checking concordances, interlinears, listening to tapes and attending the endless classes and "fellowships"? What?
I can't think of a thing. It was simply a waste of life. We might as well have been Michael Jackson groupies or somesuch. Or maybe we coulda become diehard conspiracy theorists, 9-11 Truthers per chance? They've got all that secret knowledge too, you know...
My criticism of "Biblical Research" really has nothing to do with the average person who desires to read and/or study it, but the apparently deeprooted idea that there's some sort of wealth of secret knowledge to be unlocked there if we only avail ourselves of the right teacher or the revolutionary new curriculum. I dare say that, if after the 2 millenia or so that the texts have been scoured over, inside and out, upside and down, preceived from every imaginable viewpoint, that if there's anything really new or enlightening to be gleaned from the text, the author must have gone to extreme lengths to make the contents as inscrutable as possible. That hardly seems reasonable, does it?
Can you think of a passage, a word, or even a syllable of Biblical text that hasn't been analyzed to death by now? Doesn't it seem just a little bit arrogant to think that any meaning we may ferret out of some text must have been glossed over - or missed entirely - by the many thousands of people who poured over texts (often much closer to "original" source material than we have today), and maybe even dedicated their entire lives to their study?
And to answer your other points, no I can't think of any subject thats been as overworked as the Bible. Maybe the Q'ran or the Bhagavagita, or The Book of the Dead or some other "holy" writ gets similar attention in countries that follow those dogmas, and if so, it's equally misguided.
I guess it's still a sore subject for me when I look back at all the wasted years chasing after some sort of enlightenment from the pack of Bible thumpers that were The WAY's management. What did we get for all that time checking concordances, interlinears, listening to tapes and attending the endless classes and "fellowships"? What?
I can't think of a thing. It was simply a waste of life. We might as well have been Michael Jackson groupies or somesuch. Or maybe we coulda become diehard conspiracy theorists, 9-11 Truthers per chance? They've got all that secret knowledge too, you know...
After reading your clarification, I fully agree. I apparently misunderstood your point. My apologies.
My criticism of "Biblical Research" really has nothing to do with the average person who desires to read and/or study it, but the apparently deeprooted idea that there's some sort of wealth of secret knowledge to be unlocked there if we only avail ourselves of the right teacher or the revolutionary new curriculum. I dare say that, if after the 2 millenia or so that the texts have been scoured over, inside and out, upside and down, preceived from every imaginable viewpoint, that if there's anything really new or enlightening to be gleaned from the text, the author must have gone to extreme lengths to make the contents as inscrutable as possible. That hardly seems reasonable, does it?
Can you think of a passage, a word, or even a syllable of Biblical text that hasn't been analyzed to death by now? Doesn't it seem just a little bit arrogant to think that any meaning we may ferret out of some text must have been glossed over - or missed entirely - by the many thousands of people who poured over texts (often much closer to "original" source material than we have today), and maybe even dedicated their entire lives to their study?
And to answer your other points, no I can't think of any subject thats been as overworked as the Bible. Maybe the Q'ran or the Bhagavagita, or The Book of the Dead or some other "holy" writ gets similar attention in countries that follow those dogmas, and if so, it's equally misguided.
I guess it's still a sore subject for me when I look back at all the wasted years chasing after some sort of enlightenment from the pack of Bible thumpers that were The WAY's management. What did we get for all that time checking concordances, interlinears, listening to tapes and attending the endless classes and "fellowships"? What?
I can't think of a thing. It was simply a waste of life. We might as well have been Michael Jackson groupies or somesuch. Or maybe we coulda become diehard conspiracy theorists, 9-11 Truthers per chance? They've got all that secret knowledge too, you know...
I agree with you on the wasted time. However, my take on this is the Bible is for the individual to build a relationship with their Father, and research can help understand Him. I don't let the abuse of a few false prophets cause me to deny my relationship I've built with God over years.
God could work with me inside that insipid cult. He can surely do even more without the restrictions those sick individuals imposed. One verse talks about being delivered from wicked and unreasonable men.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I was talking to Rumrunner one night and mentioned to him that we could easily start our own splinter group and start raking in the bucks...we both laughed and we both knew that it was true...any form
Broken Arrow
Do you feel the same way about the works of Shakespeare, Homer, Plato, Socrates? How about the art of Michaelangelo? You know, Beethoven, Mozart and Bach have been played a lot over the centuries. I
Tzaia
What good is knowing the "truth" if you don't do anything with it? It's really not an end in itself, or at least shouldn't be when it comes to being a follower of Jesus.
Bolshevik
. . . There's a church for rent just down the road . . .
. . . I could use a few bucks . . .
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waysider
Wayside Chapel of Charitable Chugging and Charismatic Gifts
(Dogs kenneled by the week or month)
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Bolshevik
In heaven there is no beer . . .
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Bolshevik
Actually, there is a wayside chapel with a vet or something out in front of it down the road too. . .
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Ham
I wonder how many "ministries" started at just such an event..
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skyrider
Skyrider Christ Afterlife Ministries (SCAM)
Passing thru the heavens after his resurrection, Christ ascended on high.
He is now seated at the right hand of God....for you.
Will you be skyriding the heavens?
Sign the blue card now!
Heaven awaits.
:)
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JeffSjo
This is the kind of thing where everyone would be better of if we really, really sucked at the scam business.
Worst of all if we were good at it.
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penworks
Two more spin-off groups involving Way Corps graduates, each of whom were on the Way's Research Team in the 1980s:
Light of the Word Ministry
and
Christian Leadership Training
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penworks
Another one:
San Diego Biblical Studies Fellowship
This one is run by a Family Corps grad but he was not a part of the Research Team.
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George Aar
Does it ever occur to anyone (other than me, I guess), that maybe, just maybe, there's a finite amount of wisdom that can be gleaned from The Bible? What, 66 books, a lot of which are nothing more than letters - and not even particularly long letters, and the Jewish and Christian communities have dedicated CENTURIES, nay MILLENNIA, and untold resources, Universities, Institutes, countless committees and groups, and even more individuals, to examining every jot and tittle (quite literally) of this one manuscript? You'd think that maybe we'd have gotten a handle on it by now, wouldn't you? But NOOOOOO!
We have to have a whole bunch more pencil-necked geeks to instruct us in what The Bible REALLY says! And, evidently, we need more every few days!
Oh Gawd, it's all so lame...
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Broken Arrow
Do you feel the same way about the works of Shakespeare, Homer, Plato, Socrates? How about the art of Michaelangelo? You know, Beethoven, Mozart and Bach have been played a lot over the centuries. I wonder why musicians continue to play their music? I mean, after all, don't we all know what it's supposed to sound like what with recordings and all. One book about Abraham Lincoln should suffice don't you think? And for crying out loud, how many more movies do we need about WWII? Hey people, America won..o.k.? Oh Gawd, it's all so lame...Let's get on to more important things like video games, drive-thru cheeseburgers and what college football team will finish number 1.
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penworks
You might be interested in reading, The End of Biblical Studies by Hector Avalos.
The End of Biblical Studies
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Broken Arrow
I read the link and I find it interesting how so many apply one standard to the Bible and Christianity and then another to everything else. Why isn't this esteemed professor calling for end of studying the Q'ran, or the Kuma Sutra, or the works of Buddha for the same reasons. I'm getting a bit off topic so let me bring it back.
These splinter groups are simply regurgitating an interpretation (some would say a perversion) of the Bible. Personally I think they're trying to re-live their glory days as youths. They're simply offering the same stuff repackaged and it's pathetic, really, as well as very sad.
However, that is not to be confused with legitimate Bible study or for seeking truth within the Bible. Many find comfort, encouragement and peace through Bible study even after all these centuries.
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Tzaia
What good is knowing the "truth" if you don't do anything with it? It's really not an end in itself, or at least shouldn't be when it comes to being a follower of Jesus.
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waysider
I think this particular comparison is a bit oblique.
We (musicians) don't play Beethoven, Mozart and Bach because we want to come to a greater "understanding" of them or because we think we may have "misinterpreted" a specific passage. We play their works, ultimately, because they have the ability to evoke an emotional response that touches the human psyche in a way that is both universal and timeless. Of course, students of said composers do play their works with a view toward broader understanding but that is only a means to the stated end. And, unlike the bible business, these works are open to a certain degree of "private interpretation". There is no "one and only" true way to interpret their many nuances.
So, we don't play them to discover what they sound like. We play them because we already know what they sound like and we want to be a part of the effect it evokes. You could probably apply the same logic to a local bar band playing well worn "covers".
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Tzaia
That's the common fallacy - if there were one and only true way to interpret scriptures, there wouldn't be any discussion about truth as it would be self evident.
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waysider
Exactly.
That's why I said "the bible business", not "the bible" itself.
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Tzaia
Doh!
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Broken Arrow
My comparison may be oblique. My comments were in response to someone who, at least to me, was criticizing Bible study itself. He seemed to be criticizing Jews and Christians to dedicating so much time to studying what they believe is Truth because the writings had been around for so long. My argument is that it makes at least as much sense to study ancient writings as it does to study any ancient work be it art, literature, history or whatever.
But since you brought it up, I think you musicians do play works of the masters to come to a greater understanding of them. At least in the context of getting in touch with the emotion the master composer was trying to convey and then of course...convey it. In addition (I realize I am now getting etherial) one might use certain music (i.e. baroque) to get in touch with the emotions inside one's self. Also, it would seem to me that if one wanted to become a master composer, they would be foolish to not learn the masters. The same holds true with all of the arts, that is, literature, visual arts, and the like. I hope that eliminates at least some of my "obliqueness".
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George Aar
Mssr. Erk,
My criticism of "Biblical Research" really has nothing to do with the average person who desires to read and/or study it, but the apparently deeprooted idea that there's some sort of wealth of secret knowledge to be unlocked there if we only avail ourselves of the right teacher or the revolutionary new curriculum. I dare say that, if after the 2 millenia or so that the texts have been scoured over, inside and out, upside and down, preceived from every imaginable viewpoint, that if there's anything really new or enlightening to be gleaned from the text, the author must have gone to extreme lengths to make the contents as inscrutable as possible. That hardly seems reasonable, does it?
Can you think of a passage, a word, or even a syllable of Biblical text that hasn't been analyzed to death by now? Doesn't it seem just a little bit arrogant to think that any meaning we may ferret out of some text must have been glossed over - or missed entirely - by the many thousands of people who poured over texts (often much closer to "original" source material than we have today), and maybe even dedicated their entire lives to their study?
And to answer your other points, no I can't think of any subject thats been as overworked as the Bible. Maybe the Q'ran or the Bhagavagita, or The Book of the Dead or some other "holy" writ gets similar attention in countries that follow those dogmas, and if so, it's equally misguided.
I guess it's still a sore subject for me when I look back at all the wasted years chasing after some sort of enlightenment from the pack of Bible thumpers that were The WAY's management. What did we get for all that time checking concordances, interlinears, listening to tapes and attending the endless classes and "fellowships"? What?
I can't think of a thing. It was simply a waste of life. We might as well have been Michael Jackson groupies or somesuch. Or maybe we coulda become diehard conspiracy theorists, 9-11 Truthers per chance? They've got all that secret knowledge too, you know...
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waysider
Maybe I should have simply said it's like "apples and oranges".
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Broken Arrow
After reading your clarification, I fully agree. I apparently misunderstood your point. My apologies.
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chockfull
I agree with you on the wasted time. However, my take on this is the Bible is for the individual to build a relationship with their Father, and research can help understand Him. I don't let the abuse of a few false prophets cause me to deny my relationship I've built with God over years.
God could work with me inside that insipid cult. He can surely do even more without the restrictions those sick individuals imposed. One verse talks about being delivered from wicked and unreasonable men.
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waysider
CHRISTIAN LEADERSHIP TRAINING
------ is approved by the Lord to receive abundant sharing tithes and offerings. -------
*************************************************************************
WOWZER!! I'm making out the check right now!! :o
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