The guy was Teflon coated. If there were doubts, people gave him the benefit. Because of the outward vices (drinking and smoking) I think people believed he was transparent and honest. His "vices" made him appear to be like one of us, when he really didn't think he was one of us. He trained a whole army of people to promote, protect, and defend his status as the chosen.
and after he died, the veil of secrecy is slowly removed, his "ministry" basically fell apart, his children were ostracised and sent away with no inheritance, his wife was shamefully treated, the group at least for a while lost its precious tax exempt status.. roughly 97 percent of followers fled in later years, many top leaders are (in my observation) watched and viewed with suspicion, some are viewed as having committed war crimes, and.. the vicster's *great work* is basically buried. Except for a few illegal copies, here and there.
People have often wondered the same thing about many controversial historic figures, such as Hitler, Mussolini,Castro, Jim Jones, etc. I don't think there is an easy explanation. Early on, these kind of people develop and surround themselves with an impervious core of dedicated loyalists. They are very careful not to divulge their true nature in the early stages. They tend to eliminate malcontents quickly and quietly to divert harmful attention away from themselves. It seems to be a common phenomenon with political figures. You find yourself wondering why someone didn't just step forward and end their madness. I can tell you from personal experience that if you wanted to discuss such matters regarding TWI, in the mid 1970's, you had to make darn sure the person you confided in was trustworthy.
People like those mentioned also develop an intimidation that is mixed with the arrogance and ability to work a crowd, approach an individual and command attention.
It's a skill. That coupled with they way they carry themselves and presentation of money and power; people notice and give respect of some sort without even knowing if the fellah deserves it.
They'll look ya square in the eyeballs, extend a confident and firm handshake that reeks of honesty and it works, it just works.
and after he died, the veil of secrecy is slowly removed, his "ministry" basically fell apart...
I'm not so sure that the veil of secrecy was SLOWLY removed...I think it happened rather quickly. When Vic croaked, everything unraveled. Wierwille kept it together with his charismatic personality...Martindale couldn't cut the mustard and it went down the toilet...rather quickly.
...within 2 years of the poops death, the vast majority had left or were leaving...Lcm was a buffoon.
In the mid to late 70's my parents wanted to get me de-programmed; my sister talked them out of it. They couldn't care less about the doctrine of the way. Couldn't care less if Jesus was God, 2,4,6 or 8 were crucified with him or any other doctrine. They knew about vp and other "leaders" having sex with young women in the way. I refused to believe it; said I would know if things like that were going on. My mother said "Where's there's smoke, there's fire". So, my parent's knew about these things in 1975 ish. Why did it take so long to become public knowledge?
After typing my last post, I realized why. I did know, just refused to believe. In the Corps, a girl in our twig was always going to wierwille's motorcoach to give him massages. She'd come to breakfast in the morning exhausted and said she was called to the coach 2 in the morning. A young WoW told me she was in wierwille's coach and he was walking around in his underwear and it made her uncomfortable. Dotsie was in the "President's apt." at Emporia and he was sleeping in the motorcoach. I always found that a little strange. Okay, so I did know, but refused to believe!
After typing my last post, I realized why. I did know, just refused to believe. In the Corps, a girl in our twig was always going to wierwille's motorcoach to give him massages. She'd come to breakfast in the morning exhausted and said she was called to the coach 2 in the morning. A young WoW told me she was in wierwille's coach and he was walking around in his underwear and it made her uncomfortable. Dotsie was in the "President's apt." at Emporia and he was sleeping in the motorcoach. I always found that a little strange. Okay, so I did know, but refused to believe!
That's one sick individual - doing "bootie calls" in the middle of the night with his wife sleeping in the next building over.
After typing my last post, I realized why. I did know, just refused to believe. In the Corps, a girl in our twig was always going to wierwille's motorcoach to give him massages. She'd come to breakfast in the morning exhausted and said she was called to the coach 2 in the morning.
You mean they weren't really giving him massages???????
Well, I know now, but why didn't the light bulb go off then? My parents told me it was going on.
I think because the vicster exuded *something* that disarmed us. To the extent people watched him in the motor home, the coming and goings of women and the like, and merely disregarded it.. that the obvious just could not be..
maybe the words "entranced", "bewitched" or "fascinated" apply here. And they still apply, to some I've met.
I personally think there is more to it than a character having an excess of personality or something.
perhaps he worked for some rather dark forces..
consider how he could easily sell conspiracy theories and the like.. and people lapped it up like there was no tomorrow..
stuff that could logically disregarded with little thought or confrontation..
Well, I know now, but why didn't the light bulb go off then? My parents told me it was going on.
I sometimes think.....the pfal class had little snippets that disarmed our critical thinking skills and stopped us from voicing (murmuring) discontent, negatives, etc.
Snippets like....."The critics have to attack the man of God because they can't touch the Word."
.................."...some people don't like my shirt, my tie...pretty soon we get down to the bare facts"
.................."I'd want to read it word for word, line by line before I'd think of calling the Apostle Paul a sex pervert.
With red flags flying, we refused to SEE THE OBVIOUS.
I sometimes think.....the pfal class had little snippets that disarmed our critical thinking skills and stopped us from voicing (murmuring) discontent, negatives, etc.
Snippets like....."The critics have to attack the man of God because they can't touch the Word."
.................."...some people don't like my shirt, my tie...pretty soon we get down to the bare facts"
.................."I'd want to read it word for word, line by line before I'd think of calling the Apostle Paul a sex pervert.
With red flags flying, we refused to SEE THE OBVIOUS.
"If a man wants to be stooooopid, let him be stooooopid"
I think because the vicster exuded *something* that disarmed us. To the extent people watched him in the motor home, the coming and goings of women and the like, and merely disregarded it.. that the obvious just could not be..
maybe the words "entranced", "bewitched" or "fascinated" apply here. And they still apply, to some I've met.
I personally think there is more to it than a character having an excess of personality or something.
perhaps he worked for some rather dark forces..
consider how he could easily sell conspiracy theories and the like.. and people lapped it up like there was no tomorrow..
stuff that could logically disregarded with little thought or confrontation..
Well for one thing he surrounded himself with a bunch of kids. When I was first "in", you were old if you were 25. Don't you think we would have seen right through the bs if we had been in our 40's or 50's? TWI would have fallen apart eventually imo because we were getting older and starting to ask questions.
One more thing about his "charm": Someone once said that when a person is very evil they come off like someone who is very confident. Yet, it isn't really that they are confident at all, it's that they are completely selfish and don't give a rip about people and they very truly do not care what others think. They only give a pretense of caring about others with the goal of using them for their own selfish purposes. Like when Marie Antoinette, Queen of France said, "Let them eat cake" when thousands of French commoners were starving.
Well for one thing he surrounded himself with a bunch of kids. When I was first "in", you were old if you were 25.
Yeah.......wierwille tapped the jesus movement to jumpstart his pfal presentations. The ohio german crowd didn't seem to have much interest in wierwille's work.
Don't you think we would have seen right through the bs if we had been in our 40's or 50's? TWI would have fallen apart eventually imo because we were getting older and starting to ask questions.
I've said this repeatedly. Twi was a revolving door....people were coming and GOING constantly. Even when corps grads got into their mid-30s, with kids and career and obligations,.....many were starting to ask hard questions. Years before the Geer power-grab in 1986, many of the 4th, 5th and 6th corps were distancing themselves from twi....and there were reasons why wierwille kept "inviting" corps grads back for an inresidence block. Was the indoctrination wearing off? Yessirree.
Well for one thing he surrounded himself with a bunch of kids. When I was first "in", you were old if you were 25. Don't you think we would have seen right through the bs if we had been in our 40's or 50's? TWI would have fallen apart eventually imo because we were getting older and starting to ask questions.
Good point.
As soon as he heard about the young, naive, idealistic, casual-about-sex Christians of the House of Acts, he rushed out to
Haight-Ashbury to win them over. Of course, while he was there, he asked about orgies and supposedly spent enough time
in San Francisco's "adult" bookstores and so on to get the pornographic photos and video he used for the CFS class.
All in all, he managed to get a lot done in one trip.....
The House of Acts Christians he subverted (which was "some of them") became the sales force he needed, as the bookend to
Leonard's class and Bullinger's books. Now he had something to sell and people to advertise it. After that, it was
just a matter of printing books, making appearances, and, eventually, taping classes on audio and video.
One more thing about his "charm": Someone once said that when a person is very evil they come off like someone who is very confident. Yet, it isn't really that they are confident at all, it's that they are completely selfish and don't give a rip about people and they very truly do not care what others think. They only give a pretense of caring about others with the goal of using them for their own selfish purposes.
Other people, to a sociopath, are insignificant insects. Other people only gain meaning when the sociopath
can get something out of them- then they become a COMMODITY. And that's what twi's people were- they were
sources of income, sources of adulation and "worship" for vpw, both the ego-stroke and the money.
People paid him for lording over their lives.
Like when Marie Antoinette, Queen of France said, "Let them eat cake" when thousands of French commoners were starving.
No, this is a common misconception- she never said that.
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Tzaia
The guy was Teflon coated. If there were doubts, people gave him the benefit. Because of the outward vices (drinking and smoking) I think people believed he was transparent and honest. His "vices" made him appear to be like one of us, when he really didn't think he was one of us. He trained a whole army of people to promote, protect, and defend his status as the chosen.
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Ham
and after he died, the veil of secrecy is slowly removed, his "ministry" basically fell apart, his children were ostracised and sent away with no inheritance, his wife was shamefully treated, the group at least for a while lost its precious tax exempt status.. roughly 97 percent of followers fled in later years, many top leaders are (in my observation) watched and viewed with suspicion, some are viewed as having committed war crimes, and.. the vicster's *great work* is basically buried. Except for a few illegal copies, here and there.
It it was a vote, I'd choose "Faustian deal".
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waysider
People have often wondered the same thing about many controversial historic figures, such as Hitler, Mussolini,Castro, Jim Jones, etc. I don't think there is an easy explanation. Early on, these kind of people develop and surround themselves with an impervious core of dedicated loyalists. They are very careful not to divulge their true nature in the early stages. They tend to eliminate malcontents quickly and quietly to divert harmful attention away from themselves. It seems to be a common phenomenon with political figures. You find yourself wondering why someone didn't just step forward and end their madness. I can tell you from personal experience that if you wanted to discuss such matters regarding TWI, in the mid 1970's, you had to make darn sure the person you confided in was trustworthy.
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Bolshevik
Damned those 3%!
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frank123lol
He was the king,Everyone bowed before him or they were history,
One of my first thoughts of the way was,why are there so many pictures of him?
You would think everyone revolves around him.Maybe thats why it took me 2 years before
I took said miracle class.
Once exposed of course it fell apart quickly.
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Shellon
People like those mentioned also develop an intimidation that is mixed with the arrogance and ability to work a crowd, approach an individual and command attention.
It's a skill. That coupled with they way they carry themselves and presentation of money and power; people notice and give respect of some sort without even knowing if the fellah deserves it.
They'll look ya square in the eyeballs, extend a confident and firm handshake that reeks of honesty and it works, it just works.
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GrouchoMarxJr
I'm not so sure that the veil of secrecy was SLOWLY removed...I think it happened rather quickly. When Vic croaked, everything unraveled. Wierwille kept it together with his charismatic personality...Martindale couldn't cut the mustard and it went down the toilet...rather quickly.
...within 2 years of the poops death, the vast majority had left or were leaving...Lcm was a buffoon.
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taxicab
In the mid to late 70's my parents wanted to get me de-programmed; my sister talked them out of it. They couldn't care less about the doctrine of the way. Couldn't care less if Jesus was God, 2,4,6 or 8 were crucified with him or any other doctrine. They knew about vp and other "leaders" having sex with young women in the way. I refused to believe it; said I would know if things like that were going on. My mother said "Where's there's smoke, there's fire". So, my parent's knew about these things in 1975 ish. Why did it take so long to become public knowledge?
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taxicab
After typing my last post, I realized why. I did know, just refused to believe. In the Corps, a girl in our twig was always going to wierwille's motorcoach to give him massages. She'd come to breakfast in the morning exhausted and said she was called to the coach 2 in the morning. A young WoW told me she was in wierwille's coach and he was walking around in his underwear and it made her uncomfortable. Dotsie was in the "President's apt." at Emporia and he was sleeping in the motorcoach. I always found that a little strange. Okay, so I did know, but refused to believe!
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chockfull
That's one sick individual - doing "bootie calls" in the middle of the night with his wife sleeping in the next building over.
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waterbuffalo
You mean they weren't really giving him massages???????
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taxicab
Well, I know now, but why didn't the light bulb go off then? My parents told me it was going on.
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waterbuffalo
I didn't know either. I totally believed it was a Christian ministry. And, we may be in the majority of the people who were involved back then.
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Ham
I think because the vicster exuded *something* that disarmed us. To the extent people watched him in the motor home, the coming and goings of women and the like, and merely disregarded it.. that the obvious just could not be..
maybe the words "entranced", "bewitched" or "fascinated" apply here. And they still apply, to some I've met.
I personally think there is more to it than a character having an excess of personality or something.
perhaps he worked for some rather dark forces..
consider how he could easily sell conspiracy theories and the like.. and people lapped it up like there was no tomorrow..
stuff that could logically disregarded with little thought or confrontation..
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skyrider
I sometimes think.....the pfal class had little snippets that disarmed our critical thinking skills and stopped us from voicing (murmuring) discontent, negatives, etc.
Snippets like....."The critics have to attack the man of God because they can't touch the Word."
.................."...some people don't like my shirt, my tie...pretty soon we get down to the bare facts"
.................."I'd want to read it word for word, line by line before I'd think of calling the Apostle Paul a sex pervert.
With red flags flying, we refused to SEE THE OBVIOUS.
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waysider
"If a man wants to be stooooopid, let him be stooooopid"
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taxicab
"It was the fear in the heart of that woman that killed that boy". What an awful, evil thing to say.
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Bolshevik
How long ago was this first said? Any idea what year?
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Broken Arrow
Probably plagarized.
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chockfull
Straight out of the PFAL video / film. Filmed in 1965.
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Broken Arrow
Well for one thing he surrounded himself with a bunch of kids. When I was first "in", you were old if you were 25. Don't you think we would have seen right through the bs if we had been in our 40's or 50's? TWI would have fallen apart eventually imo because we were getting older and starting to ask questions.
One more thing about his "charm": Someone once said that when a person is very evil they come off like someone who is very confident. Yet, it isn't really that they are confident at all, it's that they are completely selfish and don't give a rip about people and they very truly do not care what others think. They only give a pretense of caring about others with the goal of using them for their own selfish purposes. Like when Marie Antoinette, Queen of France said, "Let them eat cake" when thousands of French commoners were starving.
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skyrider
Yeah.......wierwille tapped the jesus movement to jumpstart his pfal presentations. The ohio german crowd didn't seem to have much interest in wierwille's work.
I've said this repeatedly. Twi was a revolving door....people were coming and GOING constantly. Even when corps grads got into their mid-30s, with kids and career and obligations,.....many were starting to ask hard questions. Years before the Geer power-grab in 1986, many of the 4th, 5th and 6th corps were distancing themselves from twi....and there were reasons why wierwille kept "inviting" corps grads back for an inresidence block. Was the indoctrination wearing off? Yessirree.
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Broken Arrow
That's a very good point, Skyrider. I had not considered that. You're probably right.
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WordWolf
Good point.
As soon as he heard about the young, naive, idealistic, casual-about-sex Christians of the House of Acts, he rushed out to
Haight-Ashbury to win them over. Of course, while he was there, he asked about orgies and supposedly spent enough time
in San Francisco's "adult" bookstores and so on to get the pornographic photos and video he used for the CFS class.
All in all, he managed to get a lot done in one trip.....
The House of Acts Christians he subverted (which was "some of them") became the sales force he needed, as the bookend to
Leonard's class and Bullinger's books. Now he had something to sell and people to advertise it. After that, it was
just a matter of printing books, making appearances, and, eventually, taping classes on audio and video.
Other people, to a sociopath, are insignificant insects. Other people only gain meaning when the sociopath
can get something out of them- then they become a COMMODITY. And that's what twi's people were- they were
sources of income, sources of adulation and "worship" for vpw, both the ego-stroke and the money.
People paid him for lording over their lives.
No, this is a common misconception- she never said that.
http://urbanlegends.about.com/od/dubiousquotes/a/antoinette.htm
http://www.straightdope.com/columns/read/550/did-marie-antoinette-really-say-let-them-eat-cake
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Let_them_eat_cake
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