Jeff, the reference to spidery type things comes from one of the offshoots and some visions of spiders crawling out of someone's nose. How edifying.
Anyway, don't go smashing spider webs, squishing bugs, etc. Some of them are actually useful. Spider webs may catch flies that spread disease. Bugs may be, or turn into, something that is useful in the garden.
It's well to be selective in what you smash down. False idols, for example.
Personally I'd see TWI as a sort of fungus. Invisible for a long time, just setting down its roots. Then long time later, up pops its fruiting body (mushroom or toadstool). hat's just what you see. The real body of the plant (/) is well hidden and extremely difficult to eradicate, as you may find if you get (say) black mold in your bathroom.
But even fungus, even, is useful, breaks down old trees etc and turns them into useful humus and nutrients for other plantlife. That's where the analogy breaks down.
I do not know the use or value of black mold in the bathroom; nor do I know the use of much of TWI doctrine (ie, exclusively their stuff.)
It seems well said to be careful what we smash or brush aside. With the human creature being so complicated and all I would hope not to shoot down what for somebody may be a step in terms of coming to grips with something.
But in terms of this vision or prophecy or whatever it was it is easy for me to consider the possibility of needing to do some smashing. But it is impossible to say for sure since I don't know the whole story. Besides, I am not intimate enough with any of the individuals or issues to feel that I have the right to start going after it.
But I just hope that this creepy crawly business isn't permanent for anybody in terms of feeling trapped or afraid by the bugs and the webs.
What can I say Shellon? Except, no, not your leg. :)
I would have preferred in your case to have been able to squash that nasty little arachnid.
Dear Twinky,
Here's the thing....by my own admission I don't know enough specifics of this supposed vision to comment.
But as to the things that I do believe, I feel very comfortable sharing them out here in broad daylight at the GSC. And since this supposed vision has at least a few of you who are well informed I must of course defer to your judgement.
On the other hand, others have went so far as to post pictures of a person completely encased with cobwebs, seemingly imobolized. And since this vision has brought up such strong images for some it seems only natural to me to relate the whole story. After all, that is fairly consistently what I do.
And even though it is butt ugly obvious that some Greasespotters will never ever believe in any vision or prophecy I have also discovered that the substance of some of their objections has been substantial enough to correct others who mistakenly believe in a BAD VISION OR PROPHECY. I'll willingly admit that for me, most of these visions feel a little screwy, and that a 100% sceptic who doubts one of these things at the very least seems to have the odds in his/her favor.
So I think it would be very, very cool to air the whole thing right here. Especially as even though I don't know many of the details I strongly tend to doubt in a vision that has something so creepy as to have a bug crawling out of somebodie's head. Call me crazy, but that sounds a little crazy.
I'll tell you what was so sad about this whole spiders out the nose thing: The whole idea that having these thoughts (whether they be prophecy or dreams) constituted a "good" or "godly" thing. All this took place within the context of God sharing this information as a warning. No one, I mean NO ONE stopped and considered the ill effect of having, much less stating that they were having these kind of thoughts. It seemed to be all along the line of normal, natural discourse, which I guess was for them in their world.
And even though it is butt ugly obvious that some Greasespotters will never ever believe in any vision or prophecy I have also discovered that the substance of some of their objections has been substantial enough to correct others who mistakenly believe in a BAD VISION OR PROPHECY. I'll willingly admit that for me, most of these visions feel a little screwy, and that a 100% sceptic who doubts one of these things at the very least seems to have the odds in his/her favor.
I dunno. I have had three or so said "prophecies".. all were personal dreams, pre twi days..
two of them have occured.. and when they played out, it was like watching a movie unfold having pre-read the script.. the last one, hasn't happened. I keep looking.. I'd repeat it here, if anyone thinks they might have a clue..
I'll tell you what was so sad about this whole spiders out the nose thing: The whole idea that having these thoughts (whether they be prophecy or dreams) constituted a "good" or "godly" thing. All this took place within the context of God sharing this information as a warning. No one, I mean NO ONE stopped and considered the ill effect of having, much less stating that they were having these kind of thoughts. It seemed to be all along the line of normal, natural discourse, which I guess was for them in their world.
Now if I understand you right Bramble I have to agree.
Folks talking about having an f'in spider crawling out of their nose, cobweb imagery, and other creepy tangents, and it is all suppose to be normal!?
But as a bystander I never understood why these types of things came up, nor do I now see the profit in sharing images and references to these things among a few informed folks while the rest of us just have to deal with the creepy imagery.
Personally I would be up for either simply clarifying the reason for these images or even better, having a full and open consideration of these things. and since this is the Greasespot Cafe, I would just expect to have differing opinions expressed. I like that aspect of GSC, that is a lot better to me than having some TWI style, puffed up, and deluded leader telling everyone else what is or isn't true.
I dunno. I have had three or so said "prophecies".. all were personal dreams, pre twi days..
two of them have occured.. and when they played out, it was like watching a movie unfold having pre-read the script.. the last one, hasn't happened. I keep looking.. I'd repeat it here, if anyone thinks they might have a clue..
I've had personal prophecies given me that not only didn't come true, but looking back it seems plain that if they had come to pass would have simply sucked me into some "prophet's" own personal private agenda party that was done in God's name.
In "River Road Fellowship" one supposed prophet said that God's judgement would be poured out on the U.S. by winter, I don't remeber if that was six or seven years ago. But since it didn't contradict Barnard's latest false prediction of when the Lord would return it was presented to the group, publically, as a true revelation.
Of course the supposed prophet did not like me. Once I tweaked him by pointing out that my thinking was geometric in nature after he said his was linear. Of course that one had him scouring his Corps notes only to discover that "geometric thinking" was indicative of great leaders according to Corps doctrine. (hehehe) While linear thinking made for great followers. Looking back I consider that it was fun to tweak him with that b.s. Corps teaching, but I think that this guy always held it against me.
And of course he once accused his wife of "LOOKING AT ME".
And another of his visions had as a major component "a large pile of rollerblades", I'm not making that up. Those things had Barnard and his thuggish cretins looking for God's guidance for "River Road Fellowship."
So because of my past, these types of things can get me worked up. But because I believe the scriptures I believe that such things may be good and genuine. But my experience has been in dealing with wannabe prophets and b.s. visions.
Maybe it is just another form of control. Similar to the way people in TWI were possessed. . . a way to keep people in line. Fear tactics. Wasn't it a select few with the ability to give these prophecies? Power concentrated at the top. . . . or a way to claw on up there?
One could say whatever they want about those they don't like. . . get into the middle of someone's MARRIAGE. . . . . destroy people with reckless abandon. . . ruin reputations. . . all with the idea of devil spirit possession, I mean personal prophecy.
My question is. . . why would anyone want to. . . what were they trying to hide or cover-up or hang on to with this bizarre stuff.
Was money, sex, or the misguided notion of power at stake?
It was another means of control. PERIOD. My belief is that if God has something God really wants me to know, then God is able to get my attention. While God may need to use other people, I tend to believe that's a last ditch effort. It was not looked at that way. It was more along the lines of a better or more mature understanding of spiritual matters, which based upon past experiences, SHOULD have thrown up a huge red flag.
I literally would not let anyone speak prophecy over me. I think it's something along the lines of "I know something you don't know," which, IMO, is arrogant BS.
This was done at JAL & EL's (first) wedding ceremony and look how that whole thing turned out. The very same person spoke all this great stuff concerning EL at her wedding and a few months later she's claiming God has revealed spiders coming out of EL's nose? Really!? They ALL freakin' jumped on it. Every last one of them - supposedly without ANY instigation on anyone's part. REALLY!?
I've had personal prophecies given me that not only didn't come true, but looking back it seems plain that if they had come to pass would have simply sucked me into some "prophet's" own personal private agenda party that was done in God's name.
what I was referring to didn't involve any other person.. happened before twi days.
I can't think of a single twi induced "prophecy" that ever really panned out..
this suggests to at least me personally.. nothing of any real spiritual significance was generated by the "founder" of twi or those at the root to begin with.. just a lot of vain boasting and such..
what I was referring to didn't involve any other person.. happened before twi days.
I can't think of a single twi induced "prophecy" that ever really panned out..
this suggests to at least me personally.. nothing of any real spiritual significance was generated by the "founder" of twi or those at the root to begin with.. just a lot of vain boasting and such..
Oh - - please tell me you knew that before now.....and not that you're just finding that out!
no, I figured that out the moment I walked out of mr. he whose claim to fame is not eating bread and vegetables together limb coordinator's office. It's been a few years..
I usually don't use these kind of words.. but he was (probably still is) a friggin moron..
As leadership, and as it goes for human beings in general, he was probably about as spiritually and intellectually inept as they had to offer..
in one brief moment, I realized we were following fruitcakes..
Something has to motivate someone to want that kind of control. . . . a deep seated insecurity or there is something at stake. . . like money. . . . or a power grab.
Seems so similar to TWI. . . but, a cult is a cult . . . . at some point people have got to want something better than these same behaviors and same people messing with their lives. . . . . . .
I don't care HOW sincere they are. . . it is poisonous.
Why keep going back to the same kind of abusive tactics. . . . because one thinks that it is the only place where "truth" is? Time to take a pass on that kind of destructive truth. . . .
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Twinky
Jeff, the reference to spidery type things comes from one of the offshoots and some visions of spiders crawling out of someone's nose. How edifying.
Anyway, don't go smashing spider webs, squishing bugs, etc. Some of them are actually useful. Spider webs may catch flies that spread disease. Bugs may be, or turn into, something that is useful in the garden.
It's well to be selective in what you smash down. False idols, for example.
Personally I'd see TWI as a sort of fungus. Invisible for a long time, just setting down its roots. Then long time later, up pops its fruiting body (mushroom or toadstool). hat's just what you see. The real body of the plant (/) is well hidden and extremely difficult to eradicate, as you may find if you get (say) black mold in your bathroom.
But even fungus, even, is useful, breaks down old trees etc and turns them into useful humus and nutrients for other plantlife. That's where the analogy breaks down.
I do not know the use or value of black mold in the bathroom; nor do I know the use of much of TWI doctrine (ie, exclusively their stuff.)
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JeffSjo
Dear Twinky,
It seems well said to be careful what we smash or brush aside. With the human creature being so complicated and all I would hope not to shoot down what for somebody may be a step in terms of coming to grips with something.
But in terms of this vision or prophecy or whatever it was it is easy for me to consider the possibility of needing to do some smashing. But it is impossible to say for sure since I don't know the whole story. Besides, I am not intimate enough with any of the individuals or issues to feel that I have the right to start going after it.
But I just hope that this creepy crawly business isn't permanent for anybody in terms of feeling trapped or afraid by the bugs and the webs.
(edited for spelling)
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Shellon
Oh, you're not talking about my leg, damn, sorry.
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JeffSjo
What can I say Shellon? Except, no, not your leg. :)
I would have preferred in your case to have been able to squash that nasty little arachnid.
Dear Twinky,
Here's the thing....by my own admission I don't know enough specifics of this supposed vision to comment.
But as to the things that I do believe, I feel very comfortable sharing them out here in broad daylight at the GSC. And since this supposed vision has at least a few of you who are well informed I must of course defer to your judgement.
On the other hand, others have went so far as to post pictures of a person completely encased with cobwebs, seemingly imobolized. And since this vision has brought up such strong images for some it seems only natural to me to relate the whole story. After all, that is fairly consistently what I do.
And even though it is butt ugly obvious that some Greasespotters will never ever believe in any vision or prophecy I have also discovered that the substance of some of their objections has been substantial enough to correct others who mistakenly believe in a BAD VISION OR PROPHECY. I'll willingly admit that for me, most of these visions feel a little screwy, and that a 100% sceptic who doubts one of these things at the very least seems to have the odds in his/her favor.
So I think it would be very, very cool to air the whole thing right here. Especially as even though I don't know many of the details I strongly tend to doubt in a vision that has something so creepy as to have a bug crawling out of somebodie's head. Call me crazy, but that sounds a little crazy.
(edited for spelling and grammar)
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Twinky
Ah. Visionary spiders. Or spiders in visions, at least. Now that's a different thing.
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krys
especially when they crawl out of your nose.
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waysider
The tales of spiders crawling into your open mouth while sleeping have been proven to be mythical.
http://www.snopes.com/science/stats/spiders.asp
So, if they don't crawl INTO your mouth, why would they crawl OUT of your nose?
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Bramble
Well, only spiritual spiders crawl out your nose, indicating the evil state of your brain.
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waysider
Maybe they're trying to escape the spiritual boogers.
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Tzaia
I'll tell you what was so sad about this whole spiders out the nose thing: The whole idea that having these thoughts (whether they be prophecy or dreams) constituted a "good" or "godly" thing. All this took place within the context of God sharing this information as a warning. No one, I mean NO ONE stopped and considered the ill effect of having, much less stating that they were having these kind of thoughts. It seemed to be all along the line of normal, natural discourse, which I guess was for them in their world.
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waysider
"Get thee behind me, spidey butt!!"
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Ham
I dunno. I have had three or so said "prophecies".. all were personal dreams, pre twi days..
two of them have occured.. and when they played out, it was like watching a movie unfold having pre-read the script.. the last one, hasn't happened. I keep looking.. I'd repeat it here, if anyone thinks they might have a clue..
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JeffSjo
Now if I understand you right Bramble I have to agree.
Folks talking about having an f'in spider crawling out of their nose, cobweb imagery, and other creepy tangents, and it is all suppose to be normal!?
But as a bystander I never understood why these types of things came up, nor do I now see the profit in sharing images and references to these things among a few informed folks while the rest of us just have to deal with the creepy imagery.
Personally I would be up for either simply clarifying the reason for these images or even better, having a full and open consideration of these things. and since this is the Greasespot Cafe, I would just expect to have differing opinions expressed. I like that aspect of GSC, that is a lot better to me than having some TWI style, puffed up, and deluded leader telling everyone else what is or isn't true.
I've had personal prophecies given me that not only didn't come true, but looking back it seems plain that if they had come to pass would have simply sucked me into some "prophet's" own personal private agenda party that was done in God's name.
In "River Road Fellowship" one supposed prophet said that God's judgement would be poured out on the U.S. by winter, I don't remeber if that was six or seven years ago. But since it didn't contradict Barnard's latest false prediction of when the Lord would return it was presented to the group, publically, as a true revelation.
Of course the supposed prophet did not like me. Once I tweaked him by pointing out that my thinking was geometric in nature after he said his was linear. Of course that one had him scouring his Corps notes only to discover that "geometric thinking" was indicative of great leaders according to Corps doctrine. (hehehe) While linear thinking made for great followers. Looking back I consider that it was fun to tweak him with that b.s. Corps teaching, but I think that this guy always held it against me.
And of course he once accused his wife of "LOOKING AT ME".
And another of his visions had as a major component "a large pile of rollerblades", I'm not making that up. Those things had Barnard and his thuggish cretins looking for God's guidance for "River Road Fellowship."
So because of my past, these types of things can get me worked up. But because I believe the scriptures I believe that such things may be good and genuine. But my experience has been in dealing with wannabe prophets and b.s. visions.
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Tzaia
Bramble didn't say anything - not that I have anything against Bramble, or what Bramble says - just that it wasn't Bramble.
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geisha779
Maybe it is just another form of control. Similar to the way people in TWI were possessed. . . a way to keep people in line. Fear tactics. Wasn't it a select few with the ability to give these prophecies? Power concentrated at the top. . . . or a way to claw on up there?
One could say whatever they want about those they don't like. . . get into the middle of someone's MARRIAGE. . . . . destroy people with reckless abandon. . . ruin reputations. . . all with the idea of devil spirit possession, I mean personal prophecy.
My question is. . . why would anyone want to. . . what were they trying to hide or cover-up or hang on to with this bizarre stuff.
Was money, sex, or the misguided notion of power at stake?
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Shellon
Oh hell yeah, it's about power and control. If one can make another look smaller, they think they, then look bigger.
And yes, getting into another's MARRIAGE, I'll never ever understand that, either. Shame on them, just for starters.
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Tzaia
It was another means of control. PERIOD. My belief is that if God has something God really wants me to know, then God is able to get my attention. While God may need to use other people, I tend to believe that's a last ditch effort. It was not looked at that way. It was more along the lines of a better or more mature understanding of spiritual matters, which based upon past experiences, SHOULD have thrown up a huge red flag.
I literally would not let anyone speak prophecy over me. I think it's something along the lines of "I know something you don't know," which, IMO, is arrogant BS.
This was done at JAL & EL's (first) wedding ceremony and look how that whole thing turned out. The very same person spoke all this great stuff concerning EL at her wedding and a few months later she's claiming God has revealed spiders coming out of EL's nose? Really!? They ALL freakin' jumped on it. Every last one of them - supposedly without ANY instigation on anyone's part. REALLY!?
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Ham
what I was referring to didn't involve any other person.. happened before twi days.
I can't think of a single twi induced "prophecy" that ever really panned out..
this suggests to at least me personally.. nothing of any real spiritual significance was generated by the "founder" of twi or those at the root to begin with.. just a lot of vain boasting and such..
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krys
Oh - - please tell me you knew that before now.....and not that you're just finding that out!
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Ham
Heh..
no, I figured that out the moment I walked out of mr. he whose claim to fame is not eating bread and vegetables together limb coordinator's office. It's been a few years..
I usually don't use these kind of words.. but he was (probably still is) a friggin moron..
As leadership, and as it goes for human beings in general, he was probably about as spiritually and intellectually inept as they had to offer..
in one brief moment, I realized we were following fruitcakes..
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geisha779
Something has to motivate someone to want that kind of control. . . . a deep seated insecurity or there is something at stake. . . like money. . . . or a power grab.
Seems so similar to TWI. . . but, a cult is a cult . . . . at some point people have got to want something better than these same behaviors and same people messing with their lives. . . . . . .
I don't care HOW sincere they are. . . it is poisonous.
Why keep going back to the same kind of abusive tactics. . . . because one thinks that it is the only place where "truth" is? Time to take a pass on that kind of destructive truth. . . .
Where is the faith?
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bowtwi
Bowtwi's prediction for Jeff's future.
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bowtwi
Two more predictions for Jeff.
">
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bowtwi
and they lived happily ever after...
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