The following is second hand information, conveyed to me, personally, in 1979, by the individual involved.
1979 (during "the wierwille administration")
A friend of mine who had recently graduated from a Way leadership training program returned to his hometown to resume his life. He was quite disillusioned with some discrepancies that he had seen and some that had been brought to his attention. Mind you, now, this was 1979, pre internet times, so he obviously knew even less than the average GSC frequenter who has been here awhile. He began to speak out publicly against The Way. Within days, literally, an armed goon squad appeared at his door, hundreds of miles from HQ, and made it very clear to him he could suffer dire consequences if he didn't stop immediately. They did not sugar coat it with "spiritual" talk of the hedge of protection. When he told me, I was flabbergasted. I tried to bounce the information off several people, both "rank and file" and "leadership". I suppose you can imagine the sort of reception and rationalization that ensued. Who is to say what might have happened if that incident had escalated?
******************************
"Wierwille manipulated an "army" to jump at his command. Don't ask questions, don't ask how high to jump.........just jump. Thaaaaaat's riiiiiight."
******************************
Believe it if you want to, or dismiss it completely.
To anybody who may have missed it, PBS "The American Experience" (IMHO the best program to ever appear on T.V.) did a program recently titled "Jonestown, The Life and Death of The People's Temple".
Though describing an altogether different cult and incidents specific to that one, the parallels to WayWorld thought and actions were staggering. And in that organization as well, conspiracy theories and paranoia ran rampant. I think it should be required viewing for any Wayfer, former - or especially - current ones.
To anybody who may have missed it, PBS "The American Experience" (IMHO the best program to ever appear on T.V.) did a program recently titled "Jonestown, The Life and Death of The People's Temple".
Though describing an altogether different cult and incidents specific to that one, the parallels to WayWorld thought and actions were staggering. And in that organization as well, conspiracy theories and paranoia ran rampant. I think it should be required viewing for any Wayfer, former - or especially - current ones.
George/waysider......yes, the Peoples Temple movement had strikingly similar aspects to that of The Way International. Some bible verses, a charismatic leader, an authoritarian figure, youth involvement, rebellious roots, communal living, isolationists, us-versus-them, etc. etc.....and the propaganda of their own making is fueling the movement.
"Nobody joins a cult".........yet, the dynamics of social, physical, emotional, and psychological interaction leads one, sometimes, on a journey unintended. At a given time and place, some saw warning signs and defected......but the movement was little stifled.
Thanks waysider for the links.
WOW......even to revisit this stuff again......WOW.
Errmm, ... yes we did. (At the risk of sounding like Oldiesman, ... which upon further investigation, I do not) we all joined. We all accepted and believed in Piffle and Co., we all thought that we were on "God's Army" (from a Way kids song), and even with the fear motivation and controlling crap that _was_ hurled in our direction, we all joined, and later left (or were thrown out of) TWI.
Sorry guys, I know that I'm singing the same old, same old, but our TWI experience is a lot more like some of these fundamentalist churches/religions (along with their fear motivating/controlling/intimidating tactics relevant to their doctrines) than many of us realize/dare to admit to.
I could take a lot of what 'mind control cults' are accused of, and rightfully attribute them to a sizable majority of fundy, and even moderate churches. Hell the core of the Christian Gospel of "Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, ... or be damned for all eternity" (in all of its variations) has many attributes of a 'mind control cult'. It's that nobody realizes that or would have the guts to admit it.
P.S., my main difference with Oldies is I don't abide by the "Get over it" song-and-dance, nor do I attribute the blame for what VPW and Co. did to the followers. Nor do I say that "It's your fault" for taking part in TWI, because they did lie to us, intimidated and brow beat us, and treated those who thought for themselves like crap.
But (speaking for myself anyway) I did join. ... And I did leave.
Wasn't a lot of folks rebelling against their parents and the culture? They weren't so much joining something as trying to be different/seperate from something else?
Damned right Leafy Twig! We thought that we were joining a group that was going to teach us all of lifes anweres and Godliness. We thought that we were committing ourselves to a group that was trying to fight the spiritual battle, strike a blow against the adversary. We thought that the leaders were decent christians with morals and character, because of all of that, we trusted them with our lives :(
Everything we thought and believed, we did because we were taught that it was God`s will. They took whatever they wanted from us in the name of God. If that isn`r the definition of a cult I don`t know what is.
Garth, I disagree, I don`t know any other fundy christian groups that require sexual servitude, forced abortions, encourage abuse,and neglec, decide who you live with and where and even when and where you work.
Bolshevik, maybe but many of us never dreamed of rebelling until told that Satan was at work in our parents, family and friends to keep us from the word, that this world was not our home but satans dominion.
There are other fundie groups that abuse, they are in the news all the time for starving their babies etc or forcing young women to be 'wives'.
Abusers love anything thing that can back up and approve their authoritarian stance, and they can find it in the Bible, just like TWI did. All those 'be subject' and 'obey' verses becaome so handy in the wrong hands.
I have a friend who once belonged to a fundy non denominational group called The Chapel, but it only had one, two hundred people. STill she had to divorce to get away, went through their version of M&A, and one of her children did not get treatment for a brain tumor until almost to late. She has had many of the same recovery issues as many of us here at GSC.
Wasn't a lot of folks rebelling against their parents and the culture? They weren't so much joining something as trying to be different/seperate from something else?
Speaking only for myself, I can tell you that does not describe my involvement at all.
1) if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are lost and damned for all eternity? (That's a helluva lot more dire situation than being a greasespot by midnight, wouldn't you say?)
2) that you should not be supportive of homosexuals or homosexual rights, such as same sex marriage? (And we all know what Craigger's spewed re: homosexuals, hmmm?)
3) (often) tell you that being a political/cultural liberal is going against God's Laws or some other such claptrap? (Yes Virginia, we all have seen one form or another of this _controlling_ and _abusive_ behavior from a lot of fundies. Try reading Politicks and Tacks or other political boards if you don't believe me.)
Or how about when someone decides to leave the church, give up the gospel, or (((shudders))) becomes an atheist? (OMG OMG OMG) :blink: I could show you account after account of those who walked away from God/Christianity, and they are:
1) treated like a pariah by their own families, and even kicked out (talk about being Marked and Avoided, hmmmm? And how is that approach compatible with keeping families together? WTF is up with that? ),
2) even run the risk of losing their jobs (especially at some companies that are 'run on Christian principles'. Yes Virginia, that happens also)
I could name a lot of other situations like this, but my main point here is there is a helluva lot more kinds of 'cult-like' behavior and abuse being practiced by fundamentalist, and even more mainstream churches, and many people don't take notice of this. Practices (that I've mentioned here) that if practiced by TWI and other 'cults', would readily be added as evidence of why those groups are 'mind control cults'.
Ie., what's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.
"Nobody joins a cult. Nobody joins something they believe is going to hurt them."~ Deborah Layton, member of the People's Temple
Looking back at wierwille's twi of 1974-1978.......it mirrored many aspects of the Peoples Temple movement in the same time frame. And, wasn't it at those 1976/1977 roa in sydney, ohio that opposition/protests/banners were outspoken that twi was a cult?
And, further.......for those who attended the Advanced Class '79 what was spoken regarding the Jonestown mass suicide?
IMO is wierwillie did not want the comparrison,so the story of the military was fabricated.
That's how I see it, too.
Ironic, though, he seemed to have forgotten that only four years prior (1976) he tried and succeeded to sell us on the idea that the gvt. was "out to get" The Way.
We were told at AC79 that Jonestown was a military cover up,
the Soviets or some such had missles there.The bodies were more decomposed than
should be,also we were told not to tell anyone,of course...
Supposedly the bodies were in closed casket.
At least thats what I remember..........
The congressman that went down there,was supposed to have gone with the military......
IMO is wierwillie did not want the comparrison,so the story of the military was fabricated.
Jone was refered to as daddy and father is that like our father in the word?
I seem to remember the explanation as......Jonestown was a government/military experiment gone awry. And further, the planes flying back to the U.S. were empty...???
Could be wrong on this....as I got sick during AC79 and missed two days of it.
Can't remember who, but I seem to recall one of our posters has personal ties to someone involved in the logistics of bringing the bodies home.
This was shared at Advanced Class '79. A tenth Corps guy who was also a LEAD instructor. He claimed to have been former special forces, I believe the Army Rangers. He said he was involved in the clean-up after Jonestown. I dunno, the guy really did share this stuff I heard it with my own ears.
This was shared at Advanced Class '79. A tenth Corps guy who was also a LEAD instructor. He claimed to have been former special forces, I believe the Army Rangers. He said he was involved in the clean-up after Jonestown. I dunno, the guy really did share this stuff I heard it with my own ears.
So.....wierwille and co. fabricated FLAT-OUT LIES on the Jim Jones' cult driven to mass suicide.
So.....wierwille and his cronies KNEW that they were changing the label of the peach jar to govt pickles.
So.....wierwille and his cult-agenda BLATANTLY LIED TO ALL ADV CLASS ATTENDEES.
And....some relish "the good ole days" when grandpa wierwille ruled...???
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waysider
I think we may have come frightfully closer to similar outcomes than many people care to admit to themselves.
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waysider
DISCLAIMER
The following is second hand information, conveyed to me, personally, in 1979, by the individual involved.
1979 (during "the wierwille administration")
A friend of mine who had recently graduated from a Way leadership training program returned to his hometown to resume his life. He was quite disillusioned with some discrepancies that he had seen and some that had been brought to his attention. Mind you, now, this was 1979, pre internet times, so he obviously knew even less than the average GSC frequenter who has been here awhile. He began to speak out publicly against The Way. Within days, literally, an armed goon squad appeared at his door, hundreds of miles from HQ, and made it very clear to him he could suffer dire consequences if he didn't stop immediately. They did not sugar coat it with "spiritual" talk of the hedge of protection. When he told me, I was flabbergasted. I tried to bounce the information off several people, both "rank and file" and "leadership". I suppose you can imagine the sort of reception and rationalization that ensued. Who is to say what might have happened if that incident had escalated?
******************************
"Wierwille manipulated an "army" to jump at his command. Don't ask questions, don't ask how high to jump.........just jump. Thaaaaaat's riiiiiight."
******************************
Believe it if you want to, or dismiss it completely.
Makes no difference to me.
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George Aar
To anybody who may have missed it, PBS "The American Experience" (IMHO the best program to ever appear on T.V.) did a program recently titled "Jonestown, The Life and Death of The People's Temple".
Though describing an altogether different cult and incidents specific to that one, the parallels to WayWorld thought and actions were staggering. And in that organization as well, conspiracy theories and paranoia ran rampant. I think it should be required viewing for any Wayfer, former - or especially - current ones.
"Nobody joins a cult"
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waysider
part#6--- audio missing
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skyrider
George/waysider......yes, the Peoples Temple movement had strikingly similar aspects to that of The Way International. Some bible verses, a charismatic leader, an authoritarian figure, youth involvement, rebellious roots, communal living, isolationists, us-versus-them, etc. etc.....and the propaganda of their own making is fueling the movement.
"Nobody joins a cult".........yet, the dynamics of social, physical, emotional, and psychological interaction leads one, sometimes, on a journey unintended. At a given time and place, some saw warning signs and defected......but the movement was little stifled.
Thanks waysider for the links.
WOW......even to revisit this stuff again......WOW.
:blink:
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GarthP2000
"Nobody joins a cult"
Errmm, ... yes we did. (At the risk of sounding like Oldiesman, ... which upon further investigation, I do not) we all joined. We all accepted and believed in Piffle and Co., we all thought that we were on "God's Army" (from a Way kids song), and even with the fear motivation and controlling crap that _was_ hurled in our direction, we all joined, and later left (or were thrown out of) TWI.
Sorry guys, I know that I'm singing the same old, same old, but our TWI experience is a lot more like some of these fundamentalist churches/religions (along with their fear motivating/controlling/intimidating tactics relevant to their doctrines) than many of us realize/dare to admit to.
I could take a lot of what 'mind control cults' are accused of, and rightfully attribute them to a sizable majority of fundy, and even moderate churches. Hell the core of the Christian Gospel of "Accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, ... or be damned for all eternity" (in all of its variations) has many attributes of a 'mind control cult'. It's that nobody realizes that or would have the guts to admit it.
P.S., my main difference with Oldies is I don't abide by the "Get over it" song-and-dance, nor do I attribute the blame for what VPW and Co. did to the followers. Nor do I say that "It's your fault" for taking part in TWI, because they did lie to us, intimidated and brow beat us, and treated those who thought for themselves like crap.
But (speaking for myself anyway) I did join. ... And I did leave.
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waysider
Well, Garth, I believe the point she was making was that, when you joined, you were unaware of its true nature.
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GarthP2000
Hhmmmm, good point. ...
... kinda like when I voted for Dubya the first time, I was unaware of _his_ true nature as well. ;)
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leafytwiglet
Actually people don't join a cult .. they join what they think is a godly group that is a cult in disguise!
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Bolshevik
Wasn't a lot of folks rebelling against their parents and the culture? They weren't so much joining something as trying to be different/seperate from something else?
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doojable
The full quote is:
"Nobody joins a cult. Nobody joins something they believe is going to hurt them."~ Deborah Layton, member of the People's Temple
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rascal
Damned right Leafy Twig! We thought that we were joining a group that was going to teach us all of lifes anweres and Godliness. We thought that we were committing ourselves to a group that was trying to fight the spiritual battle, strike a blow against the adversary. We thought that the leaders were decent christians with morals and character, because of all of that, we trusted them with our lives :(
Everything we thought and believed, we did because we were taught that it was God`s will. They took whatever they wanted from us in the name of God. If that isn`r the definition of a cult I don`t know what is.
Garth, I disagree, I don`t know any other fundy christian groups that require sexual servitude, forced abortions, encourage abuse,and neglec, decide who you live with and where and even when and where you work.
Bolshevik, maybe but many of us never dreamed of rebelling until told that Satan was at work in our parents, family and friends to keep us from the word, that this world was not our home but satans dominion.
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Bramble
There are other fundie groups that abuse, they are in the news all the time for starving their babies etc or forcing young women to be 'wives'.
Abusers love anything thing that can back up and approve their authoritarian stance, and they can find it in the Bible, just like TWI did. All those 'be subject' and 'obey' verses becaome so handy in the wrong hands.
I have a friend who once belonged to a fundy non denominational group called The Chapel, but it only had one, two hundred people. STill she had to divorce to get away, went through their version of M&A, and one of her children did not get treatment for a brain tumor until almost to late. She has had many of the same recovery issues as many of us here at GSC.
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waysider
Speaking only for myself, I can tell you that does not describe my involvement at all.
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GarthP2000
Rascal,
How about when fundy groups tell you:
1) if you don't accept Jesus Christ as your Lord and Savior, you are lost and damned for all eternity? (That's a helluva lot more dire situation than being a greasespot by midnight, wouldn't you say?)
2) that you should not be supportive of homosexuals or homosexual rights, such as same sex marriage? (And we all know what Craigger's spewed re: homosexuals, hmmm?)
3) (often) tell you that being a political/cultural liberal is going against God's Laws or some other such claptrap? (Yes Virginia, we all have seen one form or another of this _controlling_ and _abusive_ behavior from a lot of fundies. Try reading Politicks and Tacks or other political boards if you don't believe me.)
Or how about when someone decides to leave the church, give up the gospel, or (((shudders))) becomes an atheist? (OMG OMG OMG) :blink: I could show you account after account of those who walked away from God/Christianity, and they are:
1) treated like a pariah by their own families, and even kicked out (talk about being Marked and Avoided, hmmmm? And how is that approach compatible with keeping families together? WTF is up with that?
),
2) even run the risk of losing their jobs (especially at some companies that are 'run on Christian principles'. Yes Virginia, that happens also)
I could name a lot of other situations like this, but my main point here is there is a helluva lot more kinds of 'cult-like' behavior and abuse being practiced by fundamentalist, and even more mainstream churches, and many people don't take notice of this. Practices (that I've mentioned here) that if practiced by TWI and other 'cults', would readily be added as evidence of why those groups are 'mind control cults'.
Ie., what's sauce for the goose, is sauce for the gander.
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skyrider
Looking back at wierwille's twi of 1974-1978.......it mirrored many aspects of the Peoples Temple movement in the same time frame. And, wasn't it at those 1976/1977 roa in sydney, ohio that opposition/protests/banners were outspoken that twi was a cult?
And, further.......for those who attended the Advanced Class '79 what was spoken regarding the Jonestown mass suicide?
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frank123lol
We were told at AC79 that Jonestown was a military cover up,
the Soviets or some such had missles there.The bodies were more decomposed than
should be,also we were told not to tell anyone,of course...
Supposedly the bodies were in closed casket.
At least thats what I remember..........
The congressman that went down there,was supposed to have gone with the military......
IMO is wierwillie did not want the comparrison,so the story of the military was fabricated.
Jone was refered to as daddy and father is that like our father in the word?
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waysider
That's how I see it, too.
Ironic, though, he seemed to have forgotten that only four years prior (1976) he tried and succeeded to sell us on the idea that the gvt. was "out to get" The Way.
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Ham
I wonder how many takover theories the sowers were subjected to..
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waysider
I doubt we'll ever know.
Don't hold your breath while you wait for our young friend to give us that insight.
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skyrider
I seem to remember the explanation as......Jonestown was a government/military experiment gone awry. And further, the planes flying back to the U.S. were empty...???
Could be wrong on this....as I got sick during AC79 and missed two days of it.
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waysider
Can't remember who, but I seem to recall one of our posters has personal ties to someone involved in the logistics of bringing the bodies home.
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Broken Arrow
This was shared at Advanced Class '79. A tenth Corps guy who was also a LEAD instructor. He claimed to have been former special forces, I believe the Army Rangers. He said he was involved in the clean-up after Jonestown. I dunno, the guy really did share this stuff I heard it with my own ears.
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skyrider
So.....wierwille and co. fabricated FLAT-OUT LIES on the Jim Jones' cult driven to mass suicide.
So.....wierwille and his cronies KNEW that they were changing the label of the peach jar to govt pickles.
So.....wierwille and his cult-agenda BLATANTLY LIED TO ALL ADV CLASS ATTENDEES.
And....some relish "the good ole days" when grandpa wierwille ruled...???
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