Actually, Harry Potter, as a Neutral Good, would find Chaotic Neutrals to be loose cannons,
and unpredicable as allies-if they were ever on his side. They would have avoided the "unnecessary"
effort of joining the DA (Defense Association/Dumbledore's Army) and practicing defense for all
those months outside of class. They also would have avoided the battle at the Ministry of Magic,
because it didn't immediately affect THEM. Chaotic Neutrals are not "big picture" or "long-term"
types- "What's in it for me?" is a typical sentence from one.
On the other hand, he's been rather clear on this thread that he considers words like "good" and
"evil" to be meaningless in anything except a philosophical discussion, that they don't exist in
and of themselves.
"There is no good or evil: only power and those too weak to seek it."- Book One, HPatSS/HPatPS.
So, the imaginary character Harry Potter may not be proud of Bolshevik, but the imaginary character
Lord Voldemort would certainly appreciate his sentiments.
(This would concern some people, the people MOST concerned would be the ones who worry about what
imaginary characters think of them.)
This is humor right? You did not take all that time to correct my one line post other than for humor?? I was just letting Bolsh know I knew they had used these alignments to analyze Harry Potter characters.
That's a lot like saying that the Police and the Fire Dept never saved YOUR life, so they accomplish
"absolutely nothing."
A lot of people's lives WERE changed for the better BY people in twi who meant to do good.
If twi had actually been designed to DO good, it would have been a lot more effective for those
people, but that in no way invalidates the good that WAS done. A number of people have honestly
said that if it wasn't for someone in twi who cared and reached out to them, they would have
undoubtedly have DIED.
I don't question you for saying that people in twi screwed you over unmercifully, and I don't
question them for saying that people in twi rescued them. It would have been nice if twi people
had never traumatized you, or if some of them had rescued you FROM twi, but that doesn't mean
the ones who did good did "nothing."
A lot of people died 9/11 when the buildings fell. A lot of people survived 9/11 when they got out
of the buildings, and some of those got out solely because emergency responders GOT them out fast-
Police, Fire, EMS. To point to the dead and say "the emergency responders did nothing"
would be considered highly foolish.
A fire departments goals are rather clear I think. Mitigate, possibly prevent, situations. They didn't cause the situation and are not responsible for it. They are charged to not make it worse.
The Way was about setting out to do the will of a Supreme Being, the One would supposedly knows the right answers. That is something that is completely unclear. What is good or bad, right or wrong varies depending on who is speaking.
"good" and "bad" were done but the net was what? Just more of the same. Had the organization not existed, it wouldn't have made a difference. Some people who were helped possibly would not have been and some people who were screwed over possibly would not have been. Some people who screwed others over via twi would probably had found other avenues for that activity. Others who helped people in twi would have found another avenue to do so. People may gather for doing "good" or "evil" but is there any net "gain/loss" in the grand scheme of things? It's just activities people do.
having good and evil on a linear scale suggests there are two opposing forces. Or a least one directional force. In reality there's probably more dimensions, and the scale slides this way and that with time.
A fire departments goals are rather clear I think. Mitigate, possibly prevent, situations. They didn't cause the situation and are not responsible for it. They are charged to not make it worse.
I agree.
The Way was about setting out to do the will of a Supreme Being, the One would supposedly knows the right answers. That is something that is completely unclear. What is good or bad, right or wrong varies depending on who is speaking.
Twi was (and is) supposedly about doing God's Will, as determined by an understanding and application of the content of the Bible.
Those people that believed that and did so-without twi's involvement- actually helped people.
Those who used the structure for their own lusts and vices hurt people, destroying some.
(I include those that vpw and lcm PERSONALLY drove to commit suicide.)
Those that were affected by the people in one or the other category helped and/or hurt people,
depending on the level of involvements, and who they were involved with.
"good" and "bad" were done but the net was what? Just more of the same. Had the organization not existed, it wouldn't have made a difference. Some people who were helped possibly would not have been and some people who were screwed over possibly would not have been. Some people who screwed others over via twi would probably had found other avenues for that activity. Others who helped people in twi would have found another avenue to do so. People may gather for doing "good" or "evil" but is there any net "gain/loss" in the grand scheme of things? It's just activities people do.
I don't have access to nearly enough information to come CLOSE to knowing what the NET results were.
From what I've heard, more people have said "I would have been dead if not for...." than people who committed
suicide due to twi. So, I'd suspect that twi was used for more good than evil DESPITE ITS DESIGNED REASONS.
SOME of the people may have done good or evil in other venues, but not every venue puts you where you can make
a critical difference in someone's life so easily. I'm reluctant to blithely wave away what they did at
certain places and times, saying "Someone else would have done the same". We know that THEY DID, we do not
know what MIGHT or might NOT have happened.
having good and evil on a linear scale suggests there are two opposing forces. Or a least one directional force. In reality there's probably more dimensions, and the scale slides this way and that with time.
DESCRIBING good and evil on an axis (or a linear scale) suggests they are goals and drives in opposition to one another.
Not everything necessarily orients with either direction of the axis,
"Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.
"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships."
==========================
That's not perfect, but it's a basis for discussion and easy to apply while still being accurate.
"Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.
"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships."
==========================
That's not perfect, but it's a basis for discussion and easy to apply while still being accurate.
The Taliban might be an example. They would likely argue that they are responding to the "evil", the harm, hurting, oppressive, killing by other nations on those they claim to represent. They probably think of themselves as "good". Others would disagree and call them "evil".
Who or what is innocent and why? If we view the world as having less resources than can support a given number of beings having a "good life", so to speak, someone is going to get the shaft. How is it decided who lives and how much? A role of the dice plays an enourmous role, IMO.
The definitions I think assume that the goals of the "good" are even possible to carry out for everyone.
You're really such a bunch of A-holes. Can't anyone try to see the other person's point of view and ascribe some value to it? No? Why not? Is it all about what happens inside that closed box you call a brain? Disgreement is a chance to grow, but no, you remain adolescent. Is that good?
I'm sincerely thankful for all your imput. You've brought the discussion far beyond my original considerations. That was my original intent - you have far exceeded my expectations. Good!
Which one & what is good?
Interesting that this discussion has devolved in part to a discussion on whether or not TWI was/is good or evil. I suppose that was to be expected considering the forum. Although that was not my original intent, it does fit in with the things that are happening in my life at this time.
Here is what I thought (at the time) was an unrelated post on a different list - funny how things fit sometimes:
I recently have had the opportunity to attend a TWI fellowship a few times. I’m living back in the area in Southern Florida where I lived from 1983-1992. There is one TWI fellowship here where once it was a cranking area with many fellowships & growing all the time, myself being an intrinsic part of the growth and the fellowshipping. The people who are still fellowshipping in this one TWI fellowship are among those that I loved the most while I was here in those years.
There is a couple that I loved deeply while others they went to for help were involved in being assholes growing bigger. I was working for Palm Beach County Parks & Recreation Dept. in those days. I would time my route so that I would arrive at one of the beach parks at sunrise & watch the sunrise up over the Atlantic – some extraordinarily beautiful times. Then I would call this couple & we would pray & welcome the day together – sometimes engaging in interpretation of tongues &/or prophecy, the Lord bearing witness to the grace of the new day beginning.
The man who coordinates the fellowship first came to a fellowship that I was coordinating.
To these people, & others in the fellowship, I’m Jesus Christ on a stick. I’ve told them otherwise, but It doesn’t matter what I’ve done or haven’t done, they’ll love me till the day I die. That kind of love has a way of searing through every bit of crap to the center of my heart. It’s the kind of fellowshipping that my heart has longed for many years – the kind many on these lists have expressed longing for many times.
Many in this fellowship have experienced the marked for avoidance horror themselves personally, & are all about healing that sort of thing. I told the coordinator about how there was a WC at a fellowship my oldest son (then living with his mom from whom I was divorced) at 16 was teaching to which 15-20 of the people there were his friends whom he had taught & ministered healing. The WC said he was too young to teach – WHAT did they think he was a prophet or something? He wouldn’t let my son teach (wouldn’t have let that happen at my house). My son, who, no doubt, had more spiritual ability at 5 than this ...., left home then & lived under a highway for a year and ½. He is still recovering from that aberration in the way ministry. The coordinator who has 3 beautiful believing children was aghast & said that if that guy was here even at that moment he would (he who wouldn’t hurt a fly) take him out back & beat the living dang out of him so much so that he would NEVER even think of doing something like that again. Their love is so real!
They tell me the way has changed – that everyone realizes the abominable nature of the horrors of recent years.
I don’t know, I say. If that is so, why don’t those at the top level, in the name of the way, reach out in humility and apologize to those estranged, & in love invite them back?
They don’t know – all they can say is that their area & state coordinators seem extraordinarily open, loving, transparent, & understanding – come see & talk with them.
I told this couple what Reverend Cummins said about the tithe (that is wasn't applicable to this time) & what I was learning about it, & about how we all shared in the beginning in NY like they did in the Book of Acts & how the Word moved then. Their response – I always felt there was something missing about the way we are handling money & that the Word should be moving so much more than it is.
I shared with this couple AND with the fellowship coordinator about what I was seeing in the Word about the One Body, One spirit, One Lord, One faith, One baptism, One new man, etc (contrary to TWI doctrine - recently posted here in the doctrinal section). You know what their response was? They had been seeing that themselves & wondering about some of the inconsistencies presented in Way Doctrine for some years now. The fellowship coordinator was hoping that I could put it into a form that could be presented at the next Advanced Class.
Advanced Class? Well, I don’t know. Some of this seems to be rather idyllic thinking on the part of this couple and the coordinator, but there it is. These are seasoned and loving people.
Again, my considerations go back to what’s happening at the top. Do I really want to engage if all is not as it appears to be?
TWI doctrine notwithstanding, they all (immediate friends and fellowship coordinator) seem to be open to fellowshipping around what the Word really says regardless.
An opportunity good? Evil? Arbitrary to the point of not being worthy of consideration?
Got to go in some direction. Or I suppose I can sit on the curb and, when offered a buck for a bite to eat, say, I'd rather not, & die of starvation.
I can talk about poisons offered as many can - later if we must.
Dang, Tom, when are you going to tell us how you really feel? C'mon now, no need to be sensitive about it; candor is good sometimes...
Sorry, actually I don't know how to work the numbering thing here apparantly. I was trying to draw a contrast in perspective in consideration of what is good between two viewpoints. Please don't take it personally - it wasn't meant that way.
Sorry, actually I don't know how to work the numbering thing here apparantly. I was trying to draw a contrast in perspective in consideration of what is good between two viewpoints. Please don't take it personally - it wasn't meant that way.
Roy, I am NOT saying that TWI has changed all the way from top to bottom. All I'm saying is about the love there in a local TWI fellowship that I have seen and the love that they have told me about in the branch and the state. I still had reservations about what is happening at the top.
As a matter of fact those reservations have recently seemed to be justified.
Here is an email I received recently:
I had an interesting conversation with a WC grad and staff member that had left the ministry in the past year. This is what I got from the conversation...The idea of decentralizing the teachings was that it would eliminate the worship of "The Teacher"...(as if that was root of the problem...geez). Yet Rosalie runs EVERYTHING, controls EVERYTHING. After the fiasco with Craig they have demanded of the WC and staff especially to speak up over any questionable behavior unless it has to do with Rosalie and her squad of "Men Hating Woman"...Donna being 2nd only to Rosalie in that fellowship...I asked if there is lesbian activity and the comment was Donna is still married to the President of the ministry. The cabinet consists of yes men or women that are not allowed to speak up or argue a point. Rosalie being the school teacher that she was...(when was she one and how long? She has a been on staff forever)...runs the ministry like a school and if you displease her she punishes by taking responsibility and privileges away like making you live in Founders Hall or gives you a responsibility out on the field. She does this even to the old timers...the ones who have bled the Way Interinational...Mitlers, Panerellos...people of unbelievable character and quality. She has no respect for what they have done for the ministry. Her wings have been clipped severely with all the stuff that craig did like she doesn't yell because that would be "abusive" so in turn she teaches and takes away responciblities and would rather yell and do it all the old way.
The consensus is that it is dieing and everyone wishes it would just die and be done with. My heart aches for those who are still involved and abused by it and not in the same way others have been but in the sufficating, life sucking, controlling Way. People involved are still saying..."if something better came along I would go." Bless their hearts, they don't realize NOTHING is better. It was always suppose to be "Just God and I"...isn't that the heart of the word "Godliness - a true vital spiritual relationship with God." First and foremost I need to have it together with my Father before I am an asset to the Family. There is life after The Way and God is still your God and He still opens the eyes of your understanding and answers prayers and loves you. How sad after all those years of learning God's Word they don't believe that. They don't know they can walk away and be in the world with their God and not "belong" to anything and still grow and fellowship with God.
I just found out that Leah Martindale is married and she is now Leah Fear....the joy of this is that I am pretty sure I know who she married and his mom and sister lived with me when he was 7. Great kid. It just tickles me that one of the martindales is now a fear. Both of them have had crazy lives in this Way and I wish them the best. I get the impression Leah doesn't have much to do with her mom or the ministry....I also got the impression that Tim is a lot like his Dad. I read on his profile that he is into micro-expressions which is what the show Lie to Me is all about. I guess their youngest daughter Dorothy is a senior this year. In their efforts to raise their children according to the word those three children suffered more then most children and ended up with baggage like few have to carry. God's grace and their resilience is going to have to get them on down the path of life in one peace...i meant to spell it that way.
Well, I thought you all would be interested to know The Way still sucks just on whole new levels.
My response follows:
This is a very interesting post here, especially in light of some of the things I’ve said about some of the TWI people I’ve fellowshipped with lately and some of the things that they’ve said about the changed TWI. I did say that I still wondered about what was going on at the top.
You said people involved are still saying..."if something better came along I would go." Bless their hearts, they don't realize NOTHING is better. It was always suppose to be "Just God and I"
Tom: I don’t think it is just God and me, and so, I don’t think there is nothing better. When the Word says, “Ye are completely, completely, completely, complete in him” the “Ye” is plural. We are complete in him as members in particular in the One Body. Not that we can’t be individually be strong to do all things through Christ, but there is an identity that we all have as members in particular together in Christ that won’t be realized until we are all together in him. Meanwhile, there’s a taste of that when a number of members in particular work together. Those members far exceed the sum of their parts. We are God’s one new man, his new creation, his poetic masterpiece. That poetry of the new creation is realized in relationship with the other members of the new creation.
Every energizing of the spirit in the one body is meant to be enjoyed as a compacting of the one body by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, making increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
That is more than NOTHING better; it is MUCH better.
These TWI I’ve been fellowshipping with are willing and even already are entertaining truths from the Word that contradict TWI doctrine. Some are also willing to and have enjoyed fellowship with me outside the official TWI fellowship set up. I’ve already been enjoying some of the MUCH better with them. They know nothing of the substance of your conversation with the WC grad who recently left – thank you much for sharing that. Everyone in that fellowship is so fed up with the mark for avoidance travesty of recent years – many suffered it themselves. They believe it’s different now – and it is among many that they know. If they knew that same kind of stuff was happening today in a different way, they would all leave. I’m not going to tell them – they don’t know you, and they don’t know this WC grad.
But if I’m wise. If I continue to enjoy the much better with them, perhaps soon, the much better will become much more better.
God has no lack of much better things up his sleeve.
Here’s a thought provoking story – at least for me it was. It reads like a parable, but it is a true story that happened to me this week.
A neighbor, Billy, was walking by while I was working in the front of my house, & he stopped to chat for a while. He’s rather shy because he had an operation when he was young in which, as he describes it, a slice of his head was taken off, and he speaks with a slur. He can’t work a job (although, he is always working his butt off around his house), and he can’t read very well.
........................
I had believe this about Billy
where it change
I know that the TWI still has love it saddens me too
in house was always love until leadership got in middle of things teaching things that was not true
but a different subject than Billy as I recall
yelling is not a way to do things but taking away responsibilities is not either
one can made a person as you like but loving might do more
yes people still need Christ and Way ministry is no different than other place on this earth
we think we know it all but in truth we are lost waiting to be born someday
now we have only been conceive again birth comes when we die
our understanding is always growing as we grow in truth
I have heard stories of people who lost certain functions because of head injuries before. And when these lost functions came out of the "thinking" portions of their brains they lost certain functions because they have habitually used the same neuron pathways for certain tasks. But in the cases I have heard of they could "relearn" these lost functions and get their brain to utilize new pathways for lost tasks. But it wasn't easy for them to do.
Whether or not Billy ever learns to read again he seems like a wonderful neighbor.
And I think it is fair to say that the Lord didn't say that the Samaritan of parable fame was not described as doing "Jewish" acts, but his actions were counted by the Lord as fulfilling the compassionate and kind commandment. In like manner, I would not call Billy's actions "Christian" but it seems obvious that in this case his actions were laudable just as the Samaritan's whether or not Billy is Christian.
And often times I simply refer to Romans where Paul expounds on how those without the scripture can be judged "just" by their actions without the benefit of having received the scriptural commandment. But in another place Paul says that Christians who do wicked things face a more rigorous judgment because they should know better. Or in another that teachers shall reveive that stricter judgment.
So for me it is interesting that a man such as Billy may well fair better before the Lord than a corrupt Christian teacher.....hhhmmm.
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geisha779
"How droll" is an observation. . . not a pejorative or questioning of your response. The only way it becomes one is if you assign it a motive. We wouldn't want to that, because we may then have to def
WordWolf
I agree. All this sophistry and dancing around just to avoid saying someone did a "good deed." Heck, any Boy Scout in the USA should be able to give you examples of a "good deed" or of "doing a good
cman
Witnessing this person doing the things he does as Tom pointed out is also done quite often yet not noticed. Tom saw it as a christian value, which is not bad. A hindu would see it as a hindu value.
cman
reminds me of rm 7 and 8
this thread and the
'does god love satan' thread
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WordWolf
http://easydamus.com/alignment.html
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WordWolf
That's a lot like saying that the Police and the Fire Dept never saved YOUR life, so they accomplish
"absolutely nothing."
A lot of people's lives WERE changed for the better BY people in twi who meant to do good.
If twi had actually been designed to DO good, it would have been a lot more effective for those
people, but that in no way invalidates the good that WAS done. A number of people have honestly
said that if it wasn't for someone in twi who cared and reached out to them, they would have
undoubtedly have DIED.
I don't question you for saying that people in twi screwed you over unmercifully, and I don't
question them for saying that people in twi rescued them. It would have been nice if twi people
had never traumatized you, or if some of them had rescued you FROM twi, but that doesn't mean
the ones who did good did "nothing."
A lot of people died 9/11 when the buildings fell. A lot of people survived 9/11 when they got out
of the buildings, and some of those got out solely because emergency responders GOT them out fast-
Police, Fire, EMS. To point to the dead and say "the emergency responders did nothing"
would be considered highly foolish.
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WordWolf
http://easydamus.com/alignmenthpc.html
Actually, Harry Potter, as a Neutral Good, would find Chaotic Neutrals to be loose cannons,
and unpredicable as allies-if they were ever on his side. They would have avoided the "unnecessary"
effort of joining the DA (Defense Association/Dumbledore's Army) and practicing defense for all
those months outside of class. They also would have avoided the battle at the Ministry of Magic,
because it didn't immediately affect THEM. Chaotic Neutrals are not "big picture" or "long-term"
types- "What's in it for me?" is a typical sentence from one.
On the other hand, he's been rather clear on this thread that he considers words like "good" and
"evil" to be meaningless in anything except a philosophical discussion, that they don't exist in
and of themselves.
"There is no good or evil: only power and those too weak to seek it."- Book One, HPatSS/HPatPS.
So, the imaginary character Harry Potter may not be proud of Bolshevik, but the imaginary character
Lord Voldemort would certainly appreciate his sentiments.
(This would concern some people, the people MOST concerned would be the ones who worry about what
imaginary characters think of them.)
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geisha779
This is humor right? You did not take all that time to correct my one line post other than for humor?? I was just letting Bolsh know I knew they had used these alignments to analyze Harry Potter characters.
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Bramble
I thought the HP references were a very good illustration in the topic. TY WW
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geisha779
As long as we don't use the bible to ascribe good and evil. . . . Yes, by all means. . . Harry Potter books. . .a great illustration.
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Bolshevik
A fire departments goals are rather clear I think. Mitigate, possibly prevent, situations. They didn't cause the situation and are not responsible for it. They are charged to not make it worse.
The Way was about setting out to do the will of a Supreme Being, the One would supposedly knows the right answers. That is something that is completely unclear. What is good or bad, right or wrong varies depending on who is speaking.
"good" and "bad" were done but the net was what? Just more of the same. Had the organization not existed, it wouldn't have made a difference. Some people who were helped possibly would not have been and some people who were screwed over possibly would not have been. Some people who screwed others over via twi would probably had found other avenues for that activity. Others who helped people in twi would have found another avenue to do so. People may gather for doing "good" or "evil" but is there any net "gain/loss" in the grand scheme of things? It's just activities people do.
having good and evil on a linear scale suggests there are two opposing forces. Or a least one directional force. In reality there's probably more dimensions, and the scale slides this way and that with time.
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WordWolf
I Corinthians 9:20-22.
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WordWolf
I agree.
Twi was (and is) supposedly about doing God's Will, as determined by an understanding and application of the content of the Bible.
Those people that believed that and did so-without twi's involvement- actually helped people.
Those who used the structure for their own lusts and vices hurt people, destroying some.
(I include those that vpw and lcm PERSONALLY drove to commit suicide.)
Those that were affected by the people in one or the other category helped and/or hurt people,
depending on the level of involvements, and who they were involved with.
I don't have access to nearly enough information to come CLOSE to knowing what the NET results were.
From what I've heard, more people have said "I would have been dead if not for...." than people who committed
suicide due to twi. So, I'd suspect that twi was used for more good than evil DESPITE ITS DESIGNED REASONS.
SOME of the people may have done good or evil in other venues, but not every venue puts you where you can make
a critical difference in someone's life so easily. I'm reluctant to blithely wave away what they did at
certain places and times, saying "Someone else would have done the same". We know that THEY DID, we do not
know what MIGHT or might NOT have happened.
DESCRIBING good and evil on an axis (or a linear scale) suggests they are goals and drives in opposition to one another.
Not everything necessarily orients with either direction of the axis,
but it's clear and able to be discussed.
==========================
http://easydamus.com/alignment.html
"Good characters and creatures protect innocent life. Evil characters and creatures debase or destroy innocent life, whether for fun or profit.
"Good" implies altruism, respect for life, and a concern for the dignity of sentient beings. Good characters make personal sacrifices to help others.
"Evil" implies hurting, oppressing, and killing others. Some evil creatures simply have no compassion for others and kill without qualms if doing so is convenient. Others actively pursue evil, killing for sport or out of duty to some evil deity or master.
People who are neutral with respect to good and evil have compunctions against killing the innocent but lack the commitment to make sacrifices to protect or help others. Neutral people are committed to others by personal relationships."
==========================
That's not perfect, but it's a basis for discussion and easy to apply while still being accurate.
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Bolshevik
well even being "helped" can be a matter of opinion - but I'll stop there.
In a larger scheme of things WWII has no net effect, on a larger time-line all of humanity has no net effect, IMO.
The Taliban might be an example. They would likely argue that they are responding to the "evil", the harm, hurting, oppressive, killing by other nations on those they claim to represent. They probably think of themselves as "good". Others would disagree and call them "evil".
Who or what is innocent and why? If we view the world as having less resources than can support a given number of beings having a "good life", so to speak, someone is going to get the shaft. How is it decided who lives and how much? A role of the dice plays an enourmous role, IMO.
The definitions I think assume that the goals of the "good" are even possible to carry out for everyone.
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Tom
A few things to say here:
You're really such a bunch of A-holes. Can't anyone try to see the other person's point of view and ascribe some value to it? No? Why not? Is it all about what happens inside that closed box you call a brain? Disgreement is a chance to grow, but no, you remain adolescent. Is that good?
I'm sincerely thankful for all your imput. You've brought the discussion far beyond my original considerations. That was my original intent - you have far exceeded my expectations. Good!
Which one & what is good?
Interesting that this discussion has devolved in part to a discussion on whether or not TWI was/is good or evil. I suppose that was to be expected considering the forum. Although that was not my original intent, it does fit in with the things that are happening in my life at this time.
Here is what I thought (at the time) was an unrelated post on a different list - funny how things fit sometimes:
I recently have had the opportunity to attend a TWI fellowship a few times. I’m living back in the area in Southern Florida where I lived from 1983-1992. There is one TWI fellowship here where once it was a cranking area with many fellowships & growing all the time, myself being an intrinsic part of the growth and the fellowshipping. The people who are still fellowshipping in this one TWI fellowship are among those that I loved the most while I was here in those years.
There is a couple that I loved deeply while others they went to for help were involved in being assholes growing bigger. I was working for Palm Beach County Parks & Recreation Dept. in those days. I would time my route so that I would arrive at one of the beach parks at sunrise & watch the sunrise up over the Atlantic – some extraordinarily beautiful times. Then I would call this couple & we would pray & welcome the day together – sometimes engaging in interpretation of tongues &/or prophecy, the Lord bearing witness to the grace of the new day beginning.
The man who coordinates the fellowship first came to a fellowship that I was coordinating.
To these people, & others in the fellowship, I’m Jesus Christ on a stick. I’ve told them otherwise, but It doesn’t matter what I’ve done or haven’t done, they’ll love me till the day I die. That kind of love has a way of searing through every bit of crap to the center of my heart. It’s the kind of fellowshipping that my heart has longed for many years – the kind many on these lists have expressed longing for many times.
Many in this fellowship have experienced the marked for avoidance horror themselves personally, & are all about healing that sort of thing. I told the coordinator about how there was a WC at a fellowship my oldest son (then living with his mom from whom I was divorced) at 16 was teaching to which 15-20 of the people there were his friends whom he had taught & ministered healing. The WC said he was too young to teach – WHAT did they think he was a prophet or something? He wouldn’t let my son teach (wouldn’t have let that happen at my house). My son, who, no doubt, had more spiritual ability at 5 than this ...., left home then & lived under a highway for a year and ½. He is still recovering from that aberration in the way ministry. The coordinator who has 3 beautiful believing children was aghast & said that if that guy was here even at that moment he would (he who wouldn’t hurt a fly) take him out back & beat the living dang out of him so much so that he would NEVER even think of doing something like that again. Their love is so real!
They tell me the way has changed – that everyone realizes the abominable nature of the horrors of recent years.
I don’t know, I say. If that is so, why don’t those at the top level, in the name of the way, reach out in humility and apologize to those estranged, & in love invite them back?
They don’t know – all they can say is that their area & state coordinators seem extraordinarily open, loving, transparent, & understanding – come see & talk with them.
I told this couple what Reverend Cummins said about the tithe (that is wasn't applicable to this time) & what I was learning about it, & about how we all shared in the beginning in NY like they did in the Book of Acts & how the Word moved then. Their response – I always felt there was something missing about the way we are handling money & that the Word should be moving so much more than it is.
I shared with this couple AND with the fellowship coordinator about what I was seeing in the Word about the One Body, One spirit, One Lord, One faith, One baptism, One new man, etc (contrary to TWI doctrine - recently posted here in the doctrinal section). You know what their response was? They had been seeing that themselves & wondering about some of the inconsistencies presented in Way Doctrine for some years now. The fellowship coordinator was hoping that I could put it into a form that could be presented at the next Advanced Class.
Advanced Class? Well, I don’t know. Some of this seems to be rather idyllic thinking on the part of this couple and the coordinator, but there it is. These are seasoned and loving people.
Again, my considerations go back to what’s happening at the top. Do I really want to engage if all is not as it appears to be?
TWI doctrine notwithstanding, they all (immediate friends and fellowship coordinator) seem to be open to fellowshipping around what the Word really says regardless.
An opportunity good? Evil? Arbitrary to the point of not being worthy of consideration?
Got to go in some direction. Or I suppose I can sit on the curb and, when offered a buck for a bite to eat, say, I'd rather not, & die of starvation.
I can talk about poisons offered as many can - later if we must.
Thanks to all for your contributions.
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kimberly
Tom, stay with these people who will love you til the day you die.
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markomalley
You're really such a bunch of A-holes.
Dang, Tom, when are you going to tell us how you really feel? C'mon now, no need to be sensitive about it; candor is good sometimes...
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Tom
Sorry, actually I don't know how to work the numbering thing here apparantly. I was trying to draw a contrast in perspective in consideration of what is good between two viewpoints. Please don't take it personally - it wasn't meant that way.
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markomalley
Just a little early morning snarkiness, Tom.
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cman
some kind of feeling of winning ain't what it's about
more about connecting souls without being so damn proud of yourself
a joy, if you will, of actually sharing what is us,
suprisingly, to some, i might add....
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year2027
God first
Hi Tom
has something changed that I did hear about
I know I did read every reply
love Roy
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Tom
Roy, I am NOT saying that TWI has changed all the way from top to bottom. All I'm saying is about the love there in a local TWI fellowship that I have seen and the love that they have told me about in the branch and the state. I still had reservations about what is happening at the top.
As a matter of fact those reservations have recently seemed to be justified.
Here is an email I received recently:
I had an interesting conversation with a WC grad and staff member that had left the ministry in the past year. This is what I got from the conversation...The idea of decentralizing the teachings was that it would eliminate the worship of "The Teacher"...(as if that was root of the problem...geez). Yet Rosalie runs EVERYTHING, controls EVERYTHING. After the fiasco with Craig they have demanded of the WC and staff especially to speak up over any questionable behavior unless it has to do with Rosalie and her squad of "Men Hating Woman"...Donna being 2nd only to Rosalie in that fellowship...I asked if there is lesbian activity and the comment was Donna is still married to the President of the ministry. The cabinet consists of yes men or women that are not allowed to speak up or argue a point. Rosalie being the school teacher that she was...(when was she one and how long? She has a been on staff forever)...runs the ministry like a school and if you displease her she punishes by taking responsibility and privileges away like making you live in Founders Hall or gives you a responsibility out on the field. She does this even to the old timers...the ones who have bled the Way Interinational...Mitlers, Panerellos...people of unbelievable character and quality. She has no respect for what they have done for the ministry. Her wings have been clipped severely with all the stuff that craig did like she doesn't yell because that would be "abusive" so in turn she teaches and takes away responciblities and would rather yell and do it all the old way.
The consensus is that it is dieing and everyone wishes it would just die and be done with. My heart aches for those who are still involved and abused by it and not in the same way others have been but in the sufficating, life sucking, controlling Way. People involved are still saying..."if something better came along I would go." Bless their hearts, they don't realize NOTHING is better. It was always suppose to be "Just God and I"...isn't that the heart of the word "Godliness - a true vital spiritual relationship with God." First and foremost I need to have it together with my Father before I am an asset to the Family. There is life after The Way and God is still your God and He still opens the eyes of your understanding and answers prayers and loves you. How sad after all those years of learning God's Word they don't believe that. They don't know they can walk away and be in the world with their God and not "belong" to anything and still grow and fellowship with God.
I just found out that Leah Martindale is married and she is now Leah Fear....the joy of this is that I am pretty sure I know who she married and his mom and sister lived with me when he was 7. Great kid. It just tickles me that one of the martindales is now a fear. Both of them have had crazy lives in this Way and I wish them the best. I get the impression Leah doesn't have much to do with her mom or the ministry....I also got the impression that Tim is a lot like his Dad. I read on his profile that he is into micro-expressions which is what the show Lie to Me is all about. I guess their youngest daughter Dorothy is a senior this year. In their efforts to raise their children according to the word those three children suffered more then most children and ended up with baggage like few have to carry. God's grace and their resilience is going to have to get them on down the path of life in one peace...i meant to spell it that way.
Well, I thought you all would be interested to know The Way still sucks just on whole new levels.
My response follows:
This is a very interesting post here, especially in light of some of the things I’ve said about some of the TWI people I’ve fellowshipped with lately and some of the things that they’ve said about the changed TWI. I did say that I still wondered about what was going on at the top.
You said people involved are still saying..."if something better came along I would go." Bless their hearts, they don't realize NOTHING is better. It was always suppose to be "Just God and I"
Tom: I don’t think it is just God and me, and so, I don’t think there is nothing better. When the Word says, “Ye are completely, completely, completely, complete in him” the “Ye” is plural. We are complete in him as members in particular in the One Body. Not that we can’t be individually be strong to do all things through Christ, but there is an identity that we all have as members in particular together in Christ that won’t be realized until we are all together in him. Meanwhile, there’s a taste of that when a number of members in particular work together. Those members far exceed the sum of their parts. We are God’s one new man, his new creation, his poetic masterpiece. That poetry of the new creation is realized in relationship with the other members of the new creation.
Every energizing of the spirit in the one body is meant to be enjoyed as a compacting of the one body by that which every joint supplies, according to the effectual working in the measure of every part, making increase of the body unto the edifying of itself in love.
That is more than NOTHING better; it is MUCH better.
These TWI I’ve been fellowshipping with are willing and even already are entertaining truths from the Word that contradict TWI doctrine. Some are also willing to and have enjoyed fellowship with me outside the official TWI fellowship set up. I’ve already been enjoying some of the MUCH better with them. They know nothing of the substance of your conversation with the WC grad who recently left – thank you much for sharing that. Everyone in that fellowship is so fed up with the mark for avoidance travesty of recent years – many suffered it themselves. They believe it’s different now – and it is among many that they know. If they knew that same kind of stuff was happening today in a different way, they would all leave. I’m not going to tell them – they don’t know you, and they don’t know this WC grad.
But if I’m wise. If I continue to enjoy the much better with them, perhaps soon, the much better will become much more better.
God has no lack of much better things up his sleeve.
Looking forward to much better,
Tom
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year2027
God first
hi Tom
Something got miss up
I had believe this about Billy
where it change
I know that the TWI still has love it saddens me too
in house was always love until leadership got in middle of things teaching things that was not true
but a different subject than Billy as I recall
yelling is not a way to do things but taking away responsibilities is not either
one can made a person as you like but loving might do more
yes people still need Christ and Way ministry is no different than other place on this earth
we think we know it all but in truth we are lost waiting to be born someday
now we have only been conceive again birth comes when we die
our understanding is always growing as we grow in truth
what we call truth might not be the same tomorrow
love Roy
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JeffSjo
It sounds impossible to NOT like Billy Tom.
I have heard stories of people who lost certain functions because of head injuries before. And when these lost functions came out of the "thinking" portions of their brains they lost certain functions because they have habitually used the same neuron pathways for certain tasks. But in the cases I have heard of they could "relearn" these lost functions and get their brain to utilize new pathways for lost tasks. But it wasn't easy for them to do.
Whether or not Billy ever learns to read again he seems like a wonderful neighbor.
And I think it is fair to say that the Lord didn't say that the Samaritan of parable fame was not described as doing "Jewish" acts, but his actions were counted by the Lord as fulfilling the compassionate and kind commandment. In like manner, I would not call Billy's actions "Christian" but it seems obvious that in this case his actions were laudable just as the Samaritan's whether or not Billy is Christian.
And often times I simply refer to Romans where Paul expounds on how those without the scripture can be judged "just" by their actions without the benefit of having received the scriptural commandment. But in another place Paul says that Christians who do wicked things face a more rigorous judgment because they should know better. Or in another that teachers shall reveive that stricter judgment.
So for me it is interesting that a man such as Billy may well fair better before the Lord than a corrupt Christian teacher.....hhhmmm.
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