A Question About Christian Values

[Tom]

Here’s a thought provoking story – at least for me it was. It reads like a parable, but it is a true story that happened to me this week.

A neighbor, Billy, was walking by while I was working in the front of my house, & he stopped to chat for a while. He’s rather shy because he had an operation when he was young in which, as he describes it, a slice of his head was taken off, and he speaks with a slur. He can’t work a job (although, he is always working his butt off around his house), and he can’t read very well.

Yet, he is very in tune with the things that are going on among the people in the neighborhood, he is good with numbers & their significance, and he readily sees mechanical problems and their solutions.

He was explaining all this to me, he said, because he knew I am a teacher, and he thought I might understand. He felt that his inability to read was because of the operation that he had, & that he was missing some part of his brain that was essential to reading function. Also teachers didn’t seem to spend a lot of time with his reading problems. It seemed to him that they just knew that he didn’t have the ability, so they didn’t try.

I told him that the decoding abilities that he applies to what’s going on with the interactions of people in the neighborhood (IMO, one of the highest of mental functions), the significance of numbers, and mechanical problems are all the same mental functions that are applied in decoding words on a page.

I was trying to encourage him that he had the ability to read. I suppose there may some mental function specific to reading over and above those other functions that he applies so well that he may have lost when he had the operation, but I also know that people with speech problems often suffer in reading development simply because they are embarrassed, appear generally slow mentally, and get left behind as other students progress. There are one or more bad reading practices that almost all bad readers share that inhibit their growth in reading development. Of course, they then also appear likewise slow, and the problem compounds itself for them.

I suspect that Billy’s reading problems have more to do with identifiable problems that many bad readers have – all of which can be corrected – than the operation that he had. I was certainly willing to give it a try if he was. I was just trying to encourage him. I have other specific reason to believe Billy has the potential to read well, but I don’t want this to get too long. If this were truly a parable, I would have left out most of the above, but I wanted you to get to know Billy a little bit.

Anyway, in the conversation, Billy mentioned that this was his neighborhood, & he felt good when someone was succeeding in life in the neighborhood, and he felt bad when someone was having a problem. What a Christian viewpoint I thought! It sounds like the Apostle Paul talking about the One Body, & how, when one member suffers, we all suffer, & when one member rejoices, we all rejoice. Of course, Billy wasn’t talking about the One Body; he was talking about the neighborhood, but still – what a rare and remarkable attitude! Billy said he couldn’t understand how when sometimes some of our neighbors were having a hard time of it, others put them down and just made things harder for them. Didn’t they understand that this is OUR neighborhood, & we all either enjoy it or don’t enjoy it together? We ought to help our neighbors when they have problems, not make it worse for them. Parable of the good neighbor anyone?

I had these two tree stumps on either side of my garage. I cut the trees down, but I couldn’t figure out how to get the stumps out. Knowing Billy was handy at a lot of things, I asked him how. He told me how, & offered to let me use his sawzall anytime I wished. Even with the sawzall, it sounded like a real bitch of a job, getting a posthole digger in between the stumps and the concrete, dealing with the roots, etc. Anyway, I thanked him for the offer of the use of his saw, & said good night.

The next day when I came home both of the tree stumps had been removed.

The next time I saw Billy, I thanked him profusely. He got a bit embarrassed at the thanks – some who give very freely have a hard time receiving. Billy does receive, but he feels it very deeply.

I told Billy that he is a very Christ like soul.

He said, “What?”

I repeated that he is a very Christ like soul.

He asked, “Is that a good thing or bad?”

I said it was a great thing.

Billy said, “Oh, good.”

Now, my question is, “Are these Christian values that Billy is living?”

Tom

[mstar1]

Are these Christian values that Billy is living?”

Im not a card carrying dues paid up christian by any means, but thats a good illustration of what matters and is "christian" to me. To me I would much rather see what people actually do, than tell me what they "believe" or worse yet argue with me about some bible verse.

I'll take a Billy as a neighbor over a bible thumper who wants to push his "values" down my throat any day of the week.

Dont tell me--show me

To me that speaks much louder and makes more of an impact on me than every last bible teaching or sermon that I have ever heard.

Thankfully I have known alot of 'Billy's' in my life--

Edited August 7, 2009 by mstar1

[Shellon]

:) Billy

:) Tom

[waysider]

As far as I know, every major religion has some version of "The Golden Rule".

I suppose that means it might be important.

[kimberly]

I would pay Billy for doing this since he is not able to work a job. What a way to reinforce a Christ like soul.

[krys]

I would pay Billy for doing this since he is not able to work a job. What a way to reinforce a Christ like soul.

I don't think that's a good idea. I don't think he did the job for money and just handing him money would embarrass him and also take away from the reason he did the job ( in his own mind).

Of course you could make a deal with him.....I will pay you so an so much if you do this..... But that's another story and IMHO not appropriate for this situation.

[Bolshevik]

As far as I know, every major religion has some version of "The Golden Rule".

I suppose that means it might be important.

IMO the golden rule is open to interpretation. That's why we have a Supreme Court.

[Bolshevik]

Billy was taking ownership of "his town". Something that occurs naturally. It just shows that Paul was putting a spiritual spin on it.

[Bramble]

Equating generosity or compassion or neighborliness with Christian? There are kind, generous neighbors of all types of religious and nonreligious backgrounds.

I think those that give a great deal somehow know either by experience or by compassion or empathy, what it is like to be alone with no resources or helping hands, and how much better life can be with those things.

It is always heart warming to find a jewel of a human being, no matter what belief system they hold.

[George Aar]

Yeah, I dunno. I find it a little self-serving to attribute any human goodness to a specific religion.

"Gosh, that guy's just wonderful. Therefore, he must be the embodiment of my belief system."

I think people's innate nature is usually independant of whatever religion they choose.

I've known wonderfully loving, giving Christians, Buddhists, Muslims, and even a Wiccan or two. I've also known people of those faiths who were something less than that...

[cman]

Religions are secondary to being yourself I believe.

[WordWolf]

(SNIP)

Now, my question is, “Are these Christian values that Billy is living?”

Tom

Luke 10: 25-37 25And a lawyer stood up and put Him to the test, saying, "Teacher, what shall I do to inherit eternal life?"

26And He said to him, "What is written in the Law? How does it read to you?"

27And he answered, "YOU SHALL LOVE THE LORD YOUR GOD WITH ALL YOUR HEART, AND WITH ALL YOUR SOUL, AND WITH ALL YOUR STRENGTH, AND WITH ALL YOUR MIND; AND YOUR NEIGHBOR AS YOURSELF."

28And He said to him, "You have answered correctly; DO THIS AND YOU WILL LIVE."

29But wishing to justify himself, he said to Jesus, "And who is my neighbor?"

30Jesus replied and said, "A man was going down from Jerusalem to Jericho, and fell among robbers, and they stripped him and beat him, and went away leaving him half dead.

31"And by chance a priest was going down on that road, and when he saw him, he passed by on the other side.

32"Likewise a Levite also, when he came to the place and saw him, passed by on the other side.

33"But a Samaritan, who was on a journey, came upon him; and when he saw him, he felt compassion,

34and came to him and bandaged up his wounds, pouring oil and wine on them; and he put him on his own beast, and brought him to an inn and took care of him.

35"On the next day he took out two denarii and gave them to the innkeeper and said, 'Take care of him; and whatever more you spend, when I return I will repay you.'

36"Which of these three do you think proved to be a neighbor to the man who fell into the robbers' hands?"

37And he said, "The one who showed mercy toward him." Then Jesus said to him, "Go and do the same."

===============================

Is Billy living Christian values?

Whether or not Billy is a Christian, it seems the values he espouses are Christian.

(Presuming he accurately depicts himself and Tom accurately conveys Billy's heart.)

His values are values Christ put forth. (Whether or not he upholds ALL Christ put forth

remains to be seen, but that which IS seen matches Christ's words.)

One may also say that Billy is living proper Jewish values, inasmuch as the values were also

matching what a student of the Mosaic Law stated.

I suppose there are Christians AND Jews who might give another answer- meaning that Billy would

have to live ALL their values before they could approve. I am not among them.

I'm also aware that to call something "Christian" and have it NOT be an insult can be rare in

some circles. I don't hold to that either. I've seen non-Christians who've used the term

"Christian" to refer to actions or ideas in a complimentary fashion. I believe the ability of

them TO do so- mostly by actions and ideas matching those of Christ- is the entire idea behind

being able to say so. (In case that was unclear, I mean that I think Christ had in mind that

we would do good works and hold pure ideas, and that one result would be that the term "Christian"

should be a compliment.)

Matthew 5:14-16

" 14"You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden;

15nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house.

16"Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven. "

[Bramble]

Equating a religious identity with good action/good values looks alot like marketing/branding to me.

[Bolshevik]

Underscoring actions/values as "good" looks a lot like marketing/branding/propaganda to me. . . .just sayin'.

[markomalley]

"Preach the gospel always, if necessary, use words." -- St Francis of Assisi

[year2027]

God first

hi Tom and others

this blessed me and I read a while back it blessed me

this seems he ready love people and that what all about

love Roy

[geisha779]

If Jesus is Lord over all. . . and Christian's don't actually make Him Lord, but are simply confessing and acknowledging who He really is. . . and these are values He espouses. . . love your neighbor. . . wouldn't they then be human values?

These are things we admire in anybody(or should). . . no matter their faith. . . why is that?

[Twinky]

Tom asked:

Now, my question is, “Are these Christian values that Billy is living?”

This is the lifestyle that God and the Lord Jesus would have us live...helping one another. Just helping, out of a pure heart and with no expectation of reward.

Jesus makes the point that even "sinners" know how to be nice to other people; his "value" was that we should love our enemies. Who's a "sinner" in this context? Well, that's another topic. And as we all know, Jesus wasn't a "Christian." Jewish values, then?

Luke 5:31 And as ye would that men should do to you, do ye also to them likewise. 32 For if ye love them which love you, what thank have ye? for sinners also love those that love them. 33 And if ye do good to them which do good to you, what thank have ye? for sinners also do even the same. 34 And if ye lend to them of whom ye hope to receive, what thank have ye? for sinners also lend to sinners, to receive as much again. 35 But love ye your enemies, and do good, and lend, hoping for nothing again; and your reward shall be great, and ye shall be the children of the Highest: for he is kind unto the unthankful and to the evil. 36 Be ye therefore merciful, as your Father also is merciful.

But in any event, it's not a uniquely Christian/Jewish value, to be supportive of one's neighbor. For poorer or subsistence-level tribes, it may be the only way they can live at all.

Bravo Billy for his uncomplicated goodness of heart.

He's a great example.

Tom, can you offer mutual help ... like reading lessons?

[Bolshevik]

If Jesus is Lord over all. . . and Christian's don't actually make Him Lord, but are simply confessing and acknowledging who He really is. . . and these are values He espouses. . . love your neighbor. . . wouldn't they then be human values?

These are things we admire in anybody(or should). . . no matter their faith. . . why is that?

These are animal "values". It's favored because the population as a whole benefits.

[geisha779]

Underscoring actions/values as "good" looks a lot like marketing/branding/propaganda to me. . . .just sayin'.

Yes, to give weight by underscoring something as good is just silly. . . and in fairness. . . defining or underscoring something as bad is equally as inane. . .

so. . . . what was the problem with TWI?

These are animal "values". It's favored because the population as a whole benefits.

How droll.

[Bolshevik]

. . .

so. . . . what was the problem with TWI?

. . .

Nothing. They behave the same as everyone else.

[Bolshevik]

. . .

How droll.

It's true.

Ever see the video of wild animals nursing wild animal babies of other species? Our behaviour is not unique.

[geisha779]

Nothing. They behave the same as everyone else.

"How droll" is an observation. . . not a pejorative or questioning of your response. The only way it becomes one is if you assign it a motive. We wouldn't want to that, because we may then have to define something.

Conversely, Bloshevik, rapists, pedophiles, murderers, abusers, and drug dealers must not be labeled as bad, according to the line of reasoning you propose. So, let's empty the prisons of violent offenders. . . doesn't seem fair. Although we do have incarcerated those who would kill someone for the change in their pockets. . . who is to say this is wrong? Laws are so arbitrary.

What makes the choice of a life partner important? One person is no different from another. . . . why love someone more? Animal attraction? If so, why marry? We would have to define someone's attributes better than another. . .to desire to share our lives with them. . . no? Reasoning it out. . . . love is actually an illusion because defining value would be necessary.

Sorry, but, we must place value on things. . . define good. . . and evil. . . it has to come from somewhere. . .

BTW. . . the option of being "fooled" vanishes when we cease to define or underscore something as right. . . or good.

Edited August 11, 2009 by geisha779

[Bolshevik]

"How droll" is an observation. . . not a pejorative or questioning of your response. The only way it becomes one is if you assign it a motive. We wouldn't want to that, because we may then have to define something.

Conversely, Bloshevik, rapists, pedophiles, murderers, abusers, and drug dealers must not be labeled as bad, according to the line of reasoning you propose. So, let's empty the prisons of violent offenders. . . doesn't seem fair. Although we do have incarcerated those who would kill someone for the change in their pockets. . . who is to say this is wrong? Laws are so arbitrary.

What makes the choice of a life partner important? One person is no different from another. . . . why love someone more? Animal attraction? If so, why marry? We would have to define someone's attributes better than another. . .to desire to share our lives with them. . . no? Reasoning it out. . . . love is actually an illusion because defining value would be necessary.

Sorry, but, we must place value on things. . . define good. . . and evil. . . it has to come from somewhere. . .

BTW. . . the option of being "fooled" vanishes when we cease to define or underscore something as right. . . or good.

Laws are arbitrary, yes. Love is an illusion, yes. Like religion, it causes people to wierd things.

Why do we have to define good and evil? Don't we just end up redefining everything 5 minutes later?

Billy simply did what Billy wanted to do. It was neither good, nor bad, nor Christian, nor non-Christian. His motives cannot be explained or labeled other than he did what he was convinced would benefit himself in some way.

Sorry I misunderstood what you mean by "droll"

[Bramble]

I agree, things and words have value.

If all things and organizations labeled Christian are also equally labeled good then how does that help anyone? While all Christian organizations and people SHOULD be good, not all are!

Isn't that pretty much the point of GSC? A group that self labled "Christian, Bible study, The Way etc" was not a good organization--but it used the labeling of organizations that SHOULD be good. It was deceptive.

Why not let Christian be a descriptor word for a belief system, that whole huge system that covers many different groups and people?