geisha779.......yes, the original post on this thread has a SMUGNESS to it.
For anyone who follows GS regularly.....this poster has stated this "what the he11 were you WOW's and Corps amd FellowLaborers thinking" question MANY TIMES in various forms. Hence, my post above addresses two points.
YET........this poster went and spend years in CES, where elitism reigns supreme.
If the original post has a smugness to it, then that is what you are interjecting into it. It's not my intent. What I have been trying to do is make sense of some of the experiences that people have shared here. So I ask questions. There is a reason why I keep asking, and I am trying to do it in the least threatening manner possible. I want the people who may be reading this forum anonymously to hear what so many told themselves that made all of this ok at the time. Maybe they will see themselves and realize that what they are experiencing as a religion has little to do with God and a relationship with Jesus, and more about being right.
Every person who has been involved in TWI has lost something as a result, whether it be relationships, opportunities, time, innocence, or even their lives. They did it and do it so they could and can have that sense of being right and being involved with an organization that teaches "truth" and therefore secures the faithful a better place in the new world.
VPW told people not to take his word for anything that he taught. It was good advice whether he meant it or not. In retrospect it truly served as a warning, and it still does. Some of us heeded the warning. I'm more than happy to share what that cost me at the time. Many did not, in what turned out to be a bad call. Those of you who allowed yourself to be pressured into unquestioning loyalty can help those who are still in by explaining how you were pressured and why you felt the need to conform. You can tell people how that worked for you. I can help people by sharing how it felt not to conform; what kind of stress that brought into my life, and how that worked for me.
Most of us survived whether we conformed or not. Now we can step back and evaluate what can be learned from the experience.
If the original post has a smugness to it, then that is what you are interjecting into it. It's not my intent. What I have been trying to do is make sense of some of the experiences that people have shared here. So I ask questions. There is a reason why I keep asking, and I am trying to do it in the least threatening manner possible. I want the people who may be reading this forum anonymously to hear what so many told themselves that made all of this ok at the time. Maybe they will see themselves and realize that what they are experiencing as a religion has little to do with God and a relationship with Jesus, and more about being right.
Every person who has been involved in TWI has lost something as a result, whether it be relationships, opportunities, time, innocence, or even their lives. They did it and do it so they could and can have that sense of being right and being involved with an organization that teaches "truth" and therefore secures the faithful a better place in the new world.
VPW told people not to take his word for anything that he taught. It was good advice whether he meant it or not. In retrospect it truly served as a warning, and it still does. Some of us heeded the warning. I'm more than happy to share what that cost me at the time. Many did not, in what turned out to be a bad call. Those of you who allowed yourself to be pressured into unquestioning loyalty can help those who are still in by explaining how you were pressured and why you felt the need to conform. You can tell people how that worked for you. I can help people by sharing how it felt not to conform; what kind of stress that brought into my life, and how that worked for me.
Most of us survived whether we conformed or not. Now we can step back and evaluate what can be learned from the experience.
tzaia.....okay, I'll step back and try to clarify.
Although I can understand somewhat your questions......for some of us GS-posters, this has been discussed infinitum in the 97 pages of threads. Many, many good threads handle the manipulative techniques, exploiting the youth, vpw's narcissism, corps indoctrination, etc. etc. etc.
While I can understand your interest in a current discussion....I just want to tell you that some of us have been posting on Waydale and GreaseSpot for 10 years and, now, spend our time on other things. Perhaps, you'll get a lively discussion going on this thread......but I gotta tell you, that the archives are loaded with this topic.
Yet, if you address this discussion with......"wierwille warned us, I heeded his warning so why didn't you?".....or, "I wasn't fooled and stayed uncommitted, but why did you WOWs/Corps fall prey?"....you might want to rethink this approach. Just saying...
Anyways, I need to get back to work. Take care. :)
Yet, if you address this discussion with......"wierwille warned us, I heeded his warning so why didn't you?".....or, "I wasn't fooled and stayed uncommitted, but why did you WOWs/Corps fall prey?"....you might want to rethink this approach. Just saying...
TWI was and is a veritable smugfest. One had to be very careful about how one presented oneself in order to avoid being smugged by others in the group. Everything in TWI was geared toward raising the level of smuggness.
VPW told people not to take his word for anything that he taught. It was good advice whether he meant it or not.
True enough but in the same breath he basically told us that we were dead,without spirit, and completely disconnected from God until he and his class came along.
He set himself up as the sole interpreter of spiritual things as God had directly spoken to him while us measly little peons (according to him and his warped theology)were completely dead and useless... It was part of the power structure, promo (Greatest revelation since the 1st centtury) and set up. No matter who you got to be he was "the boss" and you were still a "babe"
If one bought into any of TWI, that was part of the package--ie that we were incapable of discerning or understanding spiritual matters--without following HIS principles classes and leadership which God had revealed to HIM.....
In practice in way brain world (those who bought into it) it was a sign of arrogance and probably spirit influence or possession to question Wierwille, at least by the time that I got in (1979). Where I was there was a very prevalent presence of peer pressure as well to conform to revering "Dr." and his "teachings"...I got yelled at more than once for daring to question the MOGFODAT....Ultimately he set up the system to function just that way
He said a lot of things, but there were many things surrounding them, that in a practical sense nullified them.....
It certainly wasnt like many denominations where you can openly disagree with the leaders and elders and still be completely welcomed
The clergyman that he refused to meet with was also an "idiot" He had never even met or talked to him but knew that he "had forgotten more than that boy will ever know"
The clergyman that he refused to meet with was also an "idiot" He had never even met or talked to him but knew that he "had forgotten more than that boy will ever know"
Exactly!
It's a "not so subtle" form of manipulation. (a vital ingredient in the behavior modification recipe)
His classes are overflowing with it. Consider, for the moment, the CF&S class. In one of the sessions, he shows photographs of different shaped penises and even gives names to some of the shapes. Why, in God's name, did anyone need to see or hear that information at all, let alone in a class that was supposed to be Biblical Research? He wasn't warning us there, he was challenging us to accept his twisted mindset. If we accepted that he knew better than we did why it was important information, even if we didn't understand "why", we were one step further into the behavior modification quicksand.
"If a man wants to be stoooopid, let him be stoooopid!"
Since my quote was used in the OP. I guess I should speak up a little. I was one of those who did a lot of checking and rechecking of what I learned in the class. However, since my reference sources were the ones recommended and I didn't have much experience I came up with mostly the same ideas. The only thing I found different was that Bullinger switched the meanings of Decomai (it's been to long, I don't remember how to spell it) and Lambano. But even the publisher thought he had reversed these and my own work seemed to support it. Even with all of that I left in late '76 after taking the class in late '73. I came back for a little while in 1990 and left real fast, because it literally smelled. I sometimes did question what was taught in the 70's, and I was never given a hard time about it. What I saw when I came back was just the opposite. I'm sure there were always people who were hard nosed that if Dr. said it, it had to be true, but I think there was less of that when I first started, by '76 I was beginning to see it happen quite a bit and it seemed to be supported by HQ. When I came back in 90's it was obvious that whatever came out of HQ was truth no matter what. Which might have been the reason they weren't happy to see me, since my first act was to write a letter asking how they could teach Athletes of the spirit in Ephesians. It didn't make any sense to me. (still doesn't).
I can't speak to what the original intent was, but I think the it slowly got worse as time went on and the number of people increased.
I think a lot of personal perception stems from where you were and what you were willing to lay at their altar.
My first 3 years or so were not so bad because I was still involved at the local level. I was totally sold out and devoted all my time and energy to running classes, twigs, witnessing, cleaning lipstick stains off styro cups---You get the picture. Still, I alone decided what I would eat, when I would go to bed and get up, what kind of lamps to put in my living room, etc. But, once I committed myself to one of their in-residence "leadership training" programs (cough), it started to become clear that Toto and I weren't in Kansas anymore and clicking my heels together couldn't send me back. It's like yelling in to someone trapped in a burning house, "Hey, be careful, it's hot in there!"
Recommended Posts
Tzaia
If the original post has a smugness to it, then that is what you are interjecting into it. It's not my intent. What I have been trying to do is make sense of some of the experiences that people have shared here. So I ask questions. There is a reason why I keep asking, and I am trying to do it in the least threatening manner possible. I want the people who may be reading this forum anonymously to hear what so many told themselves that made all of this ok at the time. Maybe they will see themselves and realize that what they are experiencing as a religion has little to do with God and a relationship with Jesus, and more about being right.
Every person who has been involved in TWI has lost something as a result, whether it be relationships, opportunities, time, innocence, or even their lives. They did it and do it so they could and can have that sense of being right and being involved with an organization that teaches "truth" and therefore secures the faithful a better place in the new world.
VPW told people not to take his word for anything that he taught. It was good advice whether he meant it or not. In retrospect it truly served as a warning, and it still does. Some of us heeded the warning. I'm more than happy to share what that cost me at the time. Many did not, in what turned out to be a bad call. Those of you who allowed yourself to be pressured into unquestioning loyalty can help those who are still in by explaining how you were pressured and why you felt the need to conform. You can tell people how that worked for you. I can help people by sharing how it felt not to conform; what kind of stress that brought into my life, and how that worked for me.
Most of us survived whether we conformed or not. Now we can step back and evaluate what can be learned from the experience.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
skyrider
tzaia.....okay, I'll step back and try to clarify.
Although I can understand somewhat your questions......for some of us GS-posters, this has been discussed infinitum in the 97 pages of threads. Many, many good threads handle the manipulative techniques, exploiting the youth, vpw's narcissism, corps indoctrination, etc. etc. etc.
While I can understand your interest in a current discussion....I just want to tell you that some of us have been posting on Waydale and GreaseSpot for 10 years and, now, spend our time on other things. Perhaps, you'll get a lively discussion going on this thread......but I gotta tell you, that the archives are loaded with this topic.
Yet, if you address this discussion with......"wierwille warned us, I heeded his warning so why didn't you?".....or, "I wasn't fooled and stayed uncommitted, but why did you WOWs/Corps fall prey?"....you might want to rethink this approach. Just saying...
Anyways, I need to get back to work. Take care. :)
Edited by skyriderLink to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
so is this another "GSC has run its course" thread? he he :P
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Tzaia
TWI was and is a veritable smugfest. One had to be very careful about how one presented oneself in order to avoid being smugged by others in the group. Everything in TWI was geared toward raising the level of smuggness.
It was thought of as such a good thing.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
True enough but in the same breath he basically told us that we were dead,without spirit, and completely disconnected from God until he and his class came along.
He set himself up as the sole interpreter of spiritual things as God had directly spoken to him while us measly little peons (according to him and his warped theology)were completely dead and useless... It was part of the power structure, promo (Greatest revelation since the 1st centtury) and set up. No matter who you got to be he was "the boss" and you were still a "babe"
If one bought into any of TWI, that was part of the package--ie that we were incapable of discerning or understanding spiritual matters--without following HIS principles classes and leadership which God had revealed to HIM.....
In practice in way brain world (those who bought into it) it was a sign of arrogance and probably spirit influence or possession to question Wierwille, at least by the time that I got in (1979). Where I was there was a very prevalent presence of peer pressure as well to conform to revering "Dr." and his "teachings"...I got yelled at more than once for daring to question the MOGFODAT....Ultimately he set up the system to function just that way
He said a lot of things, but there were many things surrounding them, that in a practical sense nullified them.....
It certainly wasnt like many denominations where you can openly disagree with the leaders and elders and still be completely welcomed
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
I not so sure this was intended to be interpreted as a warning.
I think it might have been more of a back-handed challenge to naysayers.
It was a psycho trick he used to belittle people who disagreed with him.
The PLAF (Miracle Class) is filled with examples of this very thing.
"Why, a man would have to be an IDIOT to miss it!"
Edited by waysiderLink to comment
Share on other sites
mstar1
The clergyman that he refused to meet with was also an "idiot" He had never even met or talked to him but knew that he "had forgotten more than that boy will ever know"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Bolshevik
He coulda just have been telling people what they wanted to hear. People bought it because he spoke at the wavelengths people were receptive to.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Exactly!
It's a "not so subtle" form of manipulation. (a vital ingredient in the behavior modification recipe)
His classes are overflowing with it. Consider, for the moment, the CF&S class. In one of the sessions, he shows photographs of different shaped penises and even gives names to some of the shapes. Why, in God's name, did anyone need to see or hear that information at all, let alone in a class that was supposed to be Biblical Research? He wasn't warning us there, he was challenging us to accept his twisted mindset. If we accepted that he knew better than we did why it was important information, even if we didn't understand "why", we were one step further into the behavior modification quicksand.
"If a man wants to be stoooopid, let him be stoooopid!"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
"Aren't her breasts just gorgeous?"
(VPW--------CF&S class)
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Keith
Since my quote was used in the OP. I guess I should speak up a little. I was one of those who did a lot of checking and rechecking of what I learned in the class. However, since my reference sources were the ones recommended and I didn't have much experience I came up with mostly the same ideas. The only thing I found different was that Bullinger switched the meanings of Decomai (it's been to long, I don't remember how to spell it) and Lambano. But even the publisher thought he had reversed these and my own work seemed to support it. Even with all of that I left in late '76 after taking the class in late '73. I came back for a little while in 1990 and left real fast, because it literally smelled. I sometimes did question what was taught in the 70's, and I was never given a hard time about it. What I saw when I came back was just the opposite. I'm sure there were always people who were hard nosed that if Dr. said it, it had to be true, but I think there was less of that when I first started, by '76 I was beginning to see it happen quite a bit and it seemed to be supported by HQ. When I came back in 90's it was obvious that whatever came out of HQ was truth no matter what. Which might have been the reason they weren't happy to see me, since my first act was to write a letter asking how they could teach Athletes of the spirit in Ephesians. It didn't make any sense to me. (still doesn't).
I can't speak to what the original intent was, but I think the it slowly got worse as time went on and the number of people increased.
Link to comment
Share on other sites
waysider
Keith
I think a lot of personal perception stems from where you were and what you were willing to lay at their altar.
My first 3 years or so were not so bad because I was still involved at the local level. I was totally sold out and devoted all my time and energy to running classes, twigs, witnessing, cleaning lipstick stains off styro cups---You get the picture. Still, I alone decided what I would eat, when I would go to bed and get up, what kind of lamps to put in my living room, etc. But, once I committed myself to one of their in-residence "leadership training" programs (cough), it started to become clear that Toto and I weren't in Kansas anymore and clicking my heels together couldn't send me back. It's like yelling in to someone trapped in a burning house, "Hey, be careful, it's hot in there!"
Link to comment
Share on other sites
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.