oh with certain modes of thinking or expression, geisha. it might not be "out there in your face", but it's just something i feel and/or have felt -- some of it subtle -- some of it not.
there have been times when i saw such adoration for certain posters and just the opposite for others. i don't necessarily want to bring it all back because i hate confrontation.
i know really good people who have left because of a certain air / environment. i find it stifling and i'm very anti-way. thank you for asking.
with the old organization.. I think we just found the wrong club. A pretty much useless, self-serving lot.. more so than the rest..
I belong to likely about half a dozen "clubs". Now at one point or another, they all could be characterized as being self-serving. The ham club performs public service. Of course it is altruistic and all, but if it does not receive some kind of response, or recognition.. however small, it would feel "slighted".. why? I think because those who enjoy the hobby would like people to know what the hobby is about, its usefulness, and possibly perpetuate the hobby itself. Individuals contribute to hopefully promote a greater good..
then there's the math "club". It is a smaller subset of the higher education club. Same reasoning.. it might be a living, but it must justify itself..is it self-serving? Yes, to some extent.. and there is an "initiation" of sorts. Same for the ham club..
whereas these two mentioned "clubs" perform a useful function in society, I don't see where twi does, or ever did. Some offshoots do a little better..
oh with certain modes of thinking or exp​ression, geisha. it might not be "out there in your face", but it's just something i feel and/or have felt -- some of it subtle -- some of it not.
there have been times when i saw such adoration for certain posters and just the opposite for others. i don't necessarily want to bring it all back because i hate confrontation.
i know really good people who have left because of a certain air / environment. i find it stifling and i'm very anti-way. thank you for asking.
Well, I can appreciate that you hate confrontation. . .I really can. . . . but asking for it in a passive way and being surprised when you find it is not a very good way to avoid it. Just a thought.
Well, I can appreciate that you hate confrontation. . .I really can. . . . but asking for it in a passive way and being surprised when you find it is not a very good way to avoid it. Just a thought
i should work on that. but i'm not surprised. i didn't think you confronted me. i thought you asked me a question.
I did ask you a question because I wondered about your comment. It was somewhat vague to my ears, but it was a loaded statement. I thank-you for clarifying. :)
I don't know though. . . I think it is a hoot to watch people regaining their reasoning skills and evolve their thought process. . . Seems people can agree on a few things. . . disagree on others and still be quasi respectful.
There are others. . . I just don't pay attention to. . . but, it is the same in life.
There are some bright people here. Funny too. I don't see a we-them mentality or a paranoia . . . or the inability to get on with life. . . for the most part.
It is such a small snapshot of an individual life. . . and I haven't been here actually posting all that long. . . so, I guess I missed all the drama.
and "all the drama" -- does that mean you find it funny or silly when you weren't here ?
i think i should stop posting on here because i'm not up to the task
thanks
Of course I don't find the drama silly or funny and I am sure it was hurtful to those involved. What I think is a hoot. . . or a pleasure to see is people relearning to reason. . . something we lost in TWI. It is actually a joy to see.
That is what I look for here. I find it all over the place.
"Whether or not a cult is destructive is determined by the morality of the cult leader and the nature of the leader's charismatic dream, said Dr. Cath."
A typical manipulated conversion, Dr. Clark said, involves a vulnerable person - a student leaving home, or at exam time, or someone who has lost a friend or lover - who is enticed by some reward: companionship, peace of mind, a place to stay or an implied sexual offering. ''Cult recruiters frequent bus stations, airports, campuses, libraries, rallies, anywhere that unattached persons are likely to be passing through,'' he said.
''Then they narrow the attention of the recruit, in controlled social situations,'' Dr. Clark said. ''He or she is invited to attend a special function, or series of classes. Cult members are assigned to attend the prospect constantly. Eventually they keep the mark involved in group-ecstatic activities, or use meditation, obsessive praying, constant lecturing or preaching or lack of sleep to maintain the mind in a constantly debilitated state.
Dr. Singer explained that such groups ''have taken techniques from the human-potential movement, from the encounter, sensitivitytraining and humanistic-psychology movements, and combined them with cult ideology and persuasive sales methods - and packaged them in various combinations.''
whenever i read some new checklist of cult qualities any more
i cant help but notice how more than half the items on the list would not be considered so harmless
if it werent for the abusive contexts
because of how twi and ilk copies from so so many other methods and fields and ideas
its like an entire encyclopedia of valid and possibly helpful ideas have been stained in the eyes of ex-members
for example...how "meditation" has been around since the dawn of time
yet because of how so many CULTures have abused people with it
and how pop-CULTure has really watered it down
a lot of people avoid anything to do with meditation
...
historically, one of the main reasons groups and practices were esoteric
was to preserve lineages and techniques and languages that took generations...sometimes centuries or more...to develop
same thing with any guild or specialized field...they want to avoid having to recreate an entire language set for their speciality
...and they want to avoid people using their work for abusive reasons
...and they dont want have to spend energy defending their field due to someone else's foolishness
yet twi-like experiences have helped make us afraid of most any group who meets behind closed doors...even if there is a very valid reason for it
"Whether or not a cult is destructive is determined by the morality of the cult leader and the nature of the leader's charismatic dream," said Dr. Cath.
There are some things that are true of any religious organization, but they seem to be more pronounced in cults or ultra-conservative organizations.
1. The tendency to distrust psychology or psychiatry, or most any science (for that matter). My reality is that I had benefited from those services, so I was not inclined to dismiss their usefulness. Putting that kind of distrust in these kinds of services leaves people at a disadvantage. What happens is that one tends to become dependent on the "wise counsel" of people who are not trained, are not qualified, and are not bound by the ethics of professionals. One is not receiving a (relatively) objective view of a situation when one limits their "wise counsel" to someone in a higher position. Everything is framed around what is best for the organization, the leadership of the organization, or even the appearance of the religion. The individual's best interest is either secondary or non-existent.
2. Censorship. Whether it be what one reads, watches on TV, sees in a theater, listens to; what one wears, or how one wears (usually) her hair; social activities like dancing or cards, worship style; what one eats and drinks; who one hangs out with. There's a lot of need to conform.
3. Conspiracy theories. A dislike or distrust of society in general and governments in particular.
4. Heightened awareness of the spirit realm and the feeling of being at war with that realm.
5. The feeling that the organization serves as protection. There is no power in the self.
There are some things that are true of any religious organization
i agree...in part
...but i cant help but say that they are not true of any (all) religious organization. Perhaps true for most of them...and yes, more pronounced in cults or ultra-conservative organizations.
But i have experienced and know of jewish, buddhist, catholic, islamic, quaker, celtic and other organizations who...
1) embrace psychologies and sciences and see them as an important part of their "faith"... including members who are professionals in those fields
2) are open to any information...old and new...and are neither conformist or non-comformist
3) devoted to love and serve society ... and participate in government
4) are very interested and active in "spiritual realms," but not the context of a mythological war
5) are grounded in both community and self-empowerment. Being "alone together."
hypothetically...even if it is only 5% of ten million religious organizations that do not fit the mold...that is still a half a million organizations that do not fit the mold
but again...our experiences have been tainted with the majority of disfunctional examples...same is true for non-religious fields as well
(lawyers, bankers, politicians, etc...)
growing cynicism (and perhaps simple weariness) talks us out of even looking beyond the majority of examples
but from what i understand of religion...historical and present...it seems that most organized religions today (and all the thousands of cults) are mostly disconnected from their own roots...and do not represent the lineages they so ardently claim to
as if
most christians interpret their bible merely ethnocentrically
most jews interpret their bible merely ethnocentrically
most muslims interpret their bible merely ethnocentrically
most buddhists interpret their bible merely ethnocentrically
etc...
and because of it...these forms of religion cannot recognize the common roots in all religion
which causes them to dig into their ethnocentric positions even more deeply...and "look outside" even less
yet, the contents of the very books they claim, while often poetic and written in pre-modern times and languages, point to wisdom and understanding that is not merely ethnocentric and/or mythological...but in fact, highly rational
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excathedra
thank you penworks so much for that article. i remember how my family thought i had changed so much
i have found this to even be true here at greasespot
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geisha779
How so?
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RumRunner
Uhh so who are the "we's" and who are the "they's?" I just don't see it. Is this Dr. Seuss? Star Bellied Sneetches and Plain Bellied Sneetches?
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excathedra
oh with certain modes of thinking or expression, geisha. it might not be "out there in your face", but it's just something i feel and/or have felt -- some of it subtle -- some of it not.
there have been times when i saw such adoration for certain posters and just the opposite for others. i don't necessarily want to bring it all back because i hate confrontation.
i know really good people who have left because of a certain air / environment. i find it stifling and i'm very anti-way. thank you for asking.
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Ham
Part of it is just human nature.. in my opinion..
I think everybody wants to belong somewhere..
with the old organization.. I think we just found the wrong club. A pretty much useless, self-serving lot.. more so than the rest..
I belong to likely about half a dozen "clubs". Now at one point or another, they all could be characterized as being self-serving. The ham club performs public service. Of course it is altruistic and all, but if it does not receive some kind of response, or recognition.. however small, it would feel "slighted".. why? I think because those who enjoy the hobby would like people to know what the hobby is about, its usefulness, and possibly perpetuate the hobby itself. Individuals contribute to hopefully promote a greater good..
then there's the math "club". It is a smaller subset of the higher education club. Same reasoning.. it might be a living, but it must justify itself..is it self-serving? Yes, to some extent.. and there is an "initiation" of sorts. Same for the ham club..
whereas these two mentioned "clubs" perform a useful function in society, I don't see where twi does, or ever did. Some offshoots do a little better..
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geisha779
Well, I can appreciate that you hate confrontation. . .I really can. . . . but asking for it in a passive way and being surprised when you find it is not a very good way to avoid it. Just a thought.
RumRunner,
Count me among the Star Bellied Sneetches please.
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Ham
Now the greasespot "club"..
the Greasespot justification for existence..is supposed to be to tell the other side of the story, the abuse, the insanity, the nuttiness..
That's the purpose, isn't it?
we've already had the "initiation".. in the old ministry.. everybody was betrayed, in my opinion..
Greasespot is not too bad of a "club"..
I jointed a squirrel haters club once. No kidding..
they had no sense of humor..
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excathedra
i should work on that. but i'm not surprised. i didn't think you confronted me. i thought you asked me a question.
and i didn't understand the dr. seuss analogy
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geisha779
I did ask you a question because I wondered about your comment. It was somewhat vague to my ears, but it was a loaded statement. I thank-you for clarifying. :)
I don't know though. . . I think it is a hoot to watch people regaining their reasoning skills and evolve their thought process. . . Seems people can agree on a few things. . . disagree on others and still be quasi respectful.
There are others. . . I just don't pay attention to. . . but, it is the same in life.
There are some bright people here. Funny too. I don't see a we-them mentality or a paranoia . . . or the inability to get on with life. . . for the most part.
It is such a small snapshot of an individual life. . . and I haven't been here actually posting all that long. . . so, I guess I missed all the drama.
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excathedra
i guess it's a hoot
and "all the drama" -- does that mean you find it funny or silly when you weren't here ?
i think i should stop posting on here because i'm not up to the task
thanks
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geisha779
Of course I don't find the drama silly or funny and I am sure it was hurtful to those involved. What I think is a hoot. . . or a pleasure to see is people relearning to reason. . . something we lost in TWI. It is actually a joy to see.
That is what I look for here. I find it all over the place.
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waysider
"Whether or not a cult is destructive is determined by the morality of the cult leader and the nature of the leader's charismatic dream, said Dr. Cath."
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geisha779
A typical manipulated conversion, Dr. Clark said, involves a vulnerable person - a student leaving home, or at exam time, or someone who has lost a friend or lover - who is enticed by some reward: companionship, peace of mind, a place to stay or an implied sexual offering. ''Cult recruiters frequent bus stations, airports, campuses, libraries, rallies, anywhere that unattached persons are likely to be passing through,'' he said.
''Then they narrow the attention of the recruit, in controlled social situations,'' Dr. Clark said. ''He or she is invited to attend a special function, or series of classes. Cult members are assigned to attend the prospect constantly. Eventually they keep the mark involved in group-ecstatic activities, or use meditation, obsessive praying, constant lecturing or preaching or lack of sleep to maintain the mind in a constantly debilitated state.
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sirguessalot
i feel this is an important point...
whenever i read some new checklist of cult qualities any more
i cant help but notice how more than half the items on the list would not be considered so harmless
if it werent for the abusive contexts
because of how twi and ilk copies from so so many other methods and fields and ideas
its like an entire encyclopedia of valid and possibly helpful ideas have been stained in the eyes of ex-members
for example...how "meditation" has been around since the dawn of time
yet because of how so many CULTures have abused people with it
and how pop-CULTure has really watered it down
a lot of people avoid anything to do with meditation
...
historically, one of the main reasons groups and practices were esoteric
was to preserve lineages and techniques and languages that took generations...sometimes centuries or more...to develop
same thing with any guild or specialized field...they want to avoid having to recreate an entire language set for their speciality
...and they want to avoid people using their work for abusive reasons
...and they dont want have to spend energy defending their field due to someone else's foolishness
yet twi-like experiences have helped make us afraid of most any group who meets behind closed doors...even if there is a very valid reason for it
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Tzaia
There are some things that are true of any religious organization, but they seem to be more pronounced in cults or ultra-conservative organizations.
1. The tendency to distrust psychology or psychiatry, or most any science (for that matter). My reality is that I had benefited from those services, so I was not inclined to dismiss their usefulness. Putting that kind of distrust in these kinds of services leaves people at a disadvantage. What happens is that one tends to become dependent on the "wise counsel" of people who are not trained, are not qualified, and are not bound by the ethics of professionals. One is not receiving a (relatively) objective view of a situation when one limits their "wise counsel" to someone in a higher position. Everything is framed around what is best for the organization, the leadership of the organization, or even the appearance of the religion. The individual's best interest is either secondary or non-existent.
2. Censorship. Whether it be what one reads, watches on TV, sees in a theater, listens to; what one wears, or how one wears (usually) her hair; social activities like dancing or cards, worship style; what one eats and drinks; who one hangs out with. There's a lot of need to conform.
3. Conspiracy theories. A dislike or distrust of society in general and governments in particular.
4. Heightened awareness of the spirit realm and the feeling of being at war with that realm.
5. The feeling that the organization serves as protection. There is no power in the self.
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sirguessalot
i hope this will be relevant to the topic
i agree...in part
...but i cant help but say that they are not true of any (all) religious organization. Perhaps true for most of them...and yes, more pronounced in cults or ultra-conservative organizations.
But i have experienced and know of jewish, buddhist, catholic, islamic, quaker, celtic and other organizations who...
1) embrace psychologies and sciences and see them as an important part of their "faith"... including members who are professionals in those fields
2) are open to any information...old and new...and are neither conformist or non-comformist
3) devoted to love and serve society ... and participate in government
4) are very interested and active in "spiritual realms," but not the context of a mythological war
5) are grounded in both community and self-empowerment. Being "alone together."
hypothetically...even if it is only 5% of ten million religious organizations that do not fit the mold...that is still a half a million organizations that do not fit the mold
but again...our experiences have been tainted with the majority of disfunctional examples...same is true for non-religious fields as well
(lawyers, bankers, politicians, etc...)
growing cynicism (and perhaps simple weariness) talks us out of even looking beyond the majority of examples
but from what i understand of religion...historical and present...it seems that most organized religions today (and all the thousands of cults) are mostly disconnected from their own roots...and do not represent the lineages they so ardently claim to
as if
most christians interpret their bible merely ethnocentrically
most jews interpret their bible merely ethnocentrically
most muslims interpret their bible merely ethnocentrically
most buddhists interpret their bible merely ethnocentrically
etc...
and because of it...these forms of religion cannot recognize the common roots in all religion
which causes them to dig into their ethnocentric positions even more deeply...and "look outside" even less
yet, the contents of the very books they claim, while often poetic and written in pre-modern times and languages, point to wisdom and understanding that is not merely ethnocentric and/or mythological...but in fact, highly rational
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