I have know a lot of people who were called "pastor" and didn't know beans from barium what that meant.
I'm a wedding officiant and am frequently referred to as "the pastor". I'm uncomfortable with the designation and always try to discourage being tagged that way.
The "pastors" of the last two churches we attended were not quite aware of their responsibilities. One is in prison, the other seems to be mainly interested in a social life with other young couples and preaching gloom and doom and condemnation on the side.
I try to go to church with an attitude of giving rather than IwantIthinkIfeelIneed, but most of the time I waver between boredom and depression. Not that I don't love the people themselves.
and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if VPW knowingly or unknowingly confused these two languages
so that a star on a stick = light
and with the "out" part from "apo" came to mean "light going out from" or "bringing new light"
Nahh---- He just made something up that would indirectly imply that he, himself, was an Apostle and hoped no one would notice that he just pulled this stuff out of his butt.
Whether or not an Apostle is one who brings "new light" or not has not been absolutely proven here, although there does seem to be some evidence in favor of it. Here is "my take" on this...
Truly the "short definition" is SENT ONE, in the sense of an ambassador. But we have to consider what is he sent to DO? He is to SPEAK about his country. An ambassador is sent to a foreign country to impress upon them values of the nation he represents. New and different ideas are certainly involved...better ways of operating a government and serving the people, etc.
Once an apostle arrives, what he speaks is what the people do not yet know or understand about God and the truth. Therefore, what an apostle imparts to them is "the LIGHT of God's Word" and it is NEW to them. In that sense is how an apostle imparts "new light".
Now, as far as "gift ministries" in general are concerned, I believe TWI had veered from the truth about them from the very beginning. They seemed to imply that in order for one to receive any of these, it was best to join the Corps and then eventually become "Ordained Clergy", and (by the laying on of hands) these ministries would be imparted to the recipient. (Nice way to dangle a carrot in front of people to encourage lots of followers to SERVE the ministry by becoming Way Corps!)
I went WOW (for the first time) in 1977. I distinctly remember VPW when he informed us that (through him of course!) God had sanctioned us to be as TRUE APOSTLES for our entire year of service -- and just how special we were in HIS EYES, etc! So, VPW also gave the notion that one could also have a (temporary) gift ministry. (Nice way to increase the numbers of people who would SERVE the ministry as WOW Ambassadors!)
But in truth, GOD HIMSELF (through Christ) gives these ministries. And (as all gifts) they are by grace, and not by the promise of service to "some man's ministry". I do not deny however that NOBODY ever received any of these by first going in the Corps, etc. By God's grace, and knowing the true heart and intent of the individual HE IMPARTS as the people have NEED.
Even in "the world", honorary degrees are available to people at times despite their lack of formal education or training in an area. And these come with all the rights and privileges as those who actually earned the PH'd by graduating from a university. Surely God also does that as well as man can!
And who is to know just who has what? Such things can be discerned "spiritually" by those who can be trusted not to "compare themselves among themselves" and becoming filled with either pride or jealousy, etc. It is entirely God's business how to equip his people to serve one another in the best manner possible.
One last thing in general about these gift ministries…they are first and foremost to be operated among the believers. Evangelists (for instance) work within God’s family to expound how best to build up the BELIEVERS by sharing in-depth understanding and insight concerning the “new birth”. Equipped with that info, everyone can witness more effectively to those who desire to become born again.
There are a great many truths which have been “lost” over the years and are just waiting to be “rediscovered” by “Biblical Pioneers” who search the scriptures for nuggets of gold just as prospectors do. And what joy when they are found and shared with all!
If it is someone’s heart’s desire to find “new things” in the Bible, just as someone in the world could desire to be an inventor, then simply try and don’t give up. Search the scriptures and enjoy doing it! Want a ministry? First show God your desire by doing what you can on your own toward that desire. If God sees you have need at times, surely He can help your endeavour to find “new light” by supplying some special “gift” to help you in your work if need be.
God knows we shall “always” need more Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers among ourselves. Let us simply believe for these in our lives and do what we are able for each other with them!
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. This verse does not necessarily imply that we believe for those who already have these gift ministries to be assigned to our area, despite how TWI would have their followers think. It only says to “desire them as you would a great treasure” so to speak.
The more excellent way is “Charity”, which reminds me of a poem I wrote in 1975. I shall close with that…
SOMETHING WORTH GIVING
Is there something worth giving you can give to a friend?
Do it now while he’s living; do not wait till the end.
Though one’s mind holds all mysteries, knowledge and faith,
His deeds won’t be history without love; there’s no trace.
While bestowing one’s treasures to feeding the poor,
He can give without measure, yet one thing is sure:
Even giving his life for a great, noble cause
Will profit him nothing; without God’s love it’s lost.
Charity is giving God’s love to mankind,
And it’s given with cheerfulness; it’s not hard to find.
So study His Word and share to begin,
And you’ll see that God’s charity is right there within.
Whatever you do for God, do it with might!
And share it with charity; fight the good fight.
So give what’s worth giving; God’s keeping the score;
So that now and in heaven you’ll receive your rewards.
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Oakspear
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kimberly
Well if Saul/Paul was hallucinating then give me some of that. Was his hallucinations involved in the writing of the epistles?
There may have been some PJ involved.
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cman
"theophanic" is the term I would use
depending on it's initial catalyst
everyone has a gifts to give i believe
terminology gets in the way sometimes
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Watered Garden
The "pastors" of the last two churches we attended were not quite aware of their responsibilities. One is in prison, the other seems to be mainly interested in a social life with other young couples and preaching gloom and doom and condemnation on the side.
I try to go to church with an attitude of giving rather than IwantIthinkIfeelIneed, but most of the time I waver between boredom and depression. Not that I don't love the people themselves.
WG
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Twinky
Back to the original question: according to my Strong's Concordance, the word Apostelloo #649 is from
#575 "apo" "off" or "away" denoting separation; and
#4724 stelloo meaning "set fast [firmly]", "represss" [abstain from associating with], "avoid, withdraw oneself".
Strong's gives the definition of "apostelloo" as "to send out (probably on a mission); lit or fig; put in, send (away, forth, out), set (at liberty)"
Nothing there about "light".
However, I have a recollection (which could be wrong) about candlesticks and the candlestick held a light (candle)
Now a stele [Greek] is an upright stone (but its root indicates that it is something fixed in place)
and [Latin] stella means "star"
and it wouldn't surprise me in the slightest if VPW knowingly or unknowingly confused these two languages
so that a star on a stick = light
and with the "out" part from "apo" came to mean "light going out from" or "bringing new light"
The ancients did refer to constellations as being the "fixed stars" (as opposed to "wandering stars" which we now know as planets).
Strong's also gives apostolos #652 meaning "a delegate or ambassador, officially a commissioner of Christ, ie apostle, messenger, he that is sent."
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waysider
Nahh---- He just made something up that would indirectly imply that he, himself, was an Apostle and hoped no one would notice that he just pulled this stuff out of his butt.
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Dot Matrix
I like this:
http://www.truthortradition.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=146
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spectrum49
Nice topic DOT! I am enjoying it quite a bit.
Whether or not an Apostle is one who brings "new light" or not has not been absolutely proven here, although there does seem to be some evidence in favor of it. Here is "my take" on this...
Truly the "short definition" is SENT ONE, in the sense of an ambassador. But we have to consider what is he sent to DO? He is to SPEAK about his country. An ambassador is sent to a foreign country to impress upon them values of the nation he represents. New and different ideas are certainly involved...better ways of operating a government and serving the people, etc.
Once an apostle arrives, what he speaks is what the people do not yet know or understand about God and the truth. Therefore, what an apostle imparts to them is "the LIGHT of God's Word" and it is NEW to them. In that sense is how an apostle imparts "new light".
Now, as far as "gift ministries" in general are concerned, I believe TWI had veered from the truth about them from the very beginning. They seemed to imply that in order for one to receive any of these, it was best to join the Corps and then eventually become "Ordained Clergy", and (by the laying on of hands) these ministries would be imparted to the recipient. (Nice way to dangle a carrot in front of people to encourage lots of followers to SERVE the ministry by becoming Way Corps!)
I went WOW (for the first time) in 1977. I distinctly remember VPW when he informed us that (through him of course!) God had sanctioned us to be as TRUE APOSTLES for our entire year of service -- and just how special we were in HIS EYES, etc! So, VPW also gave the notion that one could also have a (temporary) gift ministry. (Nice way to increase the numbers of people who would SERVE the ministry as WOW Ambassadors!)
But in truth, GOD HIMSELF (through Christ) gives these ministries. And (as all gifts) they are by grace, and not by the promise of service to "some man's ministry". I do not deny however that NOBODY ever received any of these by first going in the Corps, etc. By God's grace, and knowing the true heart and intent of the individual HE IMPARTS as the people have NEED.
Even in "the world", honorary degrees are available to people at times despite their lack of formal education or training in an area. And these come with all the rights and privileges as those who actually earned the PH'd by graduating from a university. Surely God also does that as well as man can!
And who is to know just who has what? Such things can be discerned "spiritually" by those who can be trusted not to "compare themselves among themselves" and becoming filled with either pride or jealousy, etc. It is entirely God's business how to equip his people to serve one another in the best manner possible.
One last thing in general about these gift ministries…they are first and foremost to be operated among the believers. Evangelists (for instance) work within God’s family to expound how best to build up the BELIEVERS by sharing in-depth understanding and insight concerning the “new birth”. Equipped with that info, everyone can witness more effectively to those who desire to become born again.
There are a great many truths which have been “lost” over the years and are just waiting to be “rediscovered” by “Biblical Pioneers” who search the scriptures for nuggets of gold just as prospectors do. And what joy when they are found and shared with all!
If it is someone’s heart’s desire to find “new things” in the Bible, just as someone in the world could desire to be an inventor, then simply try and don’t give up. Search the scriptures and enjoy doing it! Want a ministry? First show God your desire by doing what you can on your own toward that desire. If God sees you have need at times, surely He can help your endeavour to find “new light” by supplying some special “gift” to help you in your work if need be.
God knows we shall “always” need more Apostles, Prophets, Evangelists, Pastors, and Teachers among ourselves. Let us simply believe for these in our lives and do what we are able for each other with them!
1Co 12:31 But covet earnestly the best gifts: and yet shew I unto you a more excellent way. This verse does not necessarily imply that we believe for those who already have these gift ministries to be assigned to our area, despite how TWI would have their followers think. It only says to “desire them as you would a great treasure” so to speak.
The more excellent way is “Charity”, which reminds me of a poem I wrote in 1975. I shall close with that…
SOMETHING WORTH GIVING
Is there something worth giving you can give to a friend?
Do it now while he’s living; do not wait till the end.
Though one’s mind holds all mysteries, knowledge and faith,
His deeds won’t be history without love; there’s no trace.
While bestowing one’s treasures to feeding the poor,
He can give without measure, yet one thing is sure:
Even giving his life for a great, noble cause
Will profit him nothing; without God’s love it’s lost.
Charity is giving God’s love to mankind,
And it’s given with cheerfulness; it’s not hard to find.
So study His Word and share to begin,
And you’ll see that God’s charity is right there within.
Whatever you do for God, do it with might!
And share it with charity; fight the good fight.
So give what’s worth giving; God’s keeping the score;
So that now and in heaven you’ll receive your rewards.
Copyright 1975 - Melliott Productions
SPEC
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